UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Animals need to be treated with humanity even to their deaths AFAIC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15610142

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I can envisage all the closet (and not so secret) anti-islamics suddenly proclaiming how much they're in favour of humane treatment of animals.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal

---------- Post added at 17:06 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------

10th June 2003

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

And many years later it's still "allowed" or is it just ignored for fear of upsetting religious groups?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

i think post#2 sums up why no one says anything

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

If I remember correctly, Halal and Kosher food makes up about 3% of all life stock being slaughtered in Holland. I'm not sure if such a tiny amount warrants a ban that'll seriously inconvenience some people.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Allow me to correct that ;)

There is nothing wrong with Halal or Kosha meat if slaughtered correctly the same as the way non Kosha or Halal meat is slaughtered .There will always be potential for suffering in any type of slaughter so to single out Halal or Kosha is just plain idiotic

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

i thought this was about animal welfare not the inconvenience to some people .

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Yes, the claim is that it's about animal welfare. But the reality is that it's a tiny portion that would be slaughtered without being stunned first. It seems to me that a better balance could be struck between animal welfare and the right to religious expression.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

If it's about animal welfare then other types of slaughter need to be examined as well

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Do you have to be one or the other to be in favour?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Standard practice for Fish is to let them suffocate...

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the thing is if you fill the hold with water the ship sinks ;)

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

:)
i meant the accepted western method ,which is to stun with either a 300volt shock or a stun gun then slit the throat .Concerns have been raised that cattle are being skinned and gutted while still alive because of the speed of the whole slaughter process .Also the way animals are transported to slaughter in overcrowded lorries leading to injuries or even death .
The whole concept of Halal and Kosher is to prevent suffering and to ensure that the animals have no disease at the time of slaughter .

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

what if the animal isn't muslim or jewish and just wants a scientifically contrived demise .:shocked:

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I have been brought up with animals all my life, when I was living at home my father used to keep pigs, fowls, geese, turkey etc.

Each Christmas we used to send a pig to the local slaughterhouse, the slaughterman would keep half and bring the other half back to our house. My father would then cure the bacon and ham on a stone floor we had layed in the pantry. I never liked the part of the slaughter of the pig, even though they were stunned before the actual slaughter, because they were like pets to me, but, we have to eat. However, anyone that tells me the animal does not suffer when it is killed by just having it's throat cut is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

In my opinion during any slaughter the animal will suffer whether it be by Halal,kosher ,electric stun before bleeding or captive bolt stun .In both the latter methods there is potential for the animal to still be conscious while the bleeding occurs ,the animals are certainly still alive so there is potential for just as as much suffering if not more as Halal or Kosher meat

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

It was a tiny proposing of fox's that were killed by hunting as opposed to other means but no balance was struck between animal welfare and the right to a traditional way of life.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Ridiculous comparison the 2 have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.
There has been a movement to ban Halal/Kosher slaughter in many countries for most of the last century .

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I know they don't, however parallels can be drawn on the post I commented on

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I can see where you're coming from, but there's a difference between a religious requirement regarding the sourcing of food and cultural traditions in getting rid of pests.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Link

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I would disagree. Religious 'requirements' are nothing more than a cultural tradition just with extra vehemency and neither has any place influencing policies on animal welfare in modern society.

That's more indicative probably of my own distaste at religious beliefs being recognised in law in any way beyond the right to freely practice them.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I have to disagree, not surprisingly - but not in the way you think ;)

I feel the reason the majority of a lot of "anti-halal" people feel that way is due to it being connected with Islam. There are some who are so anti-anything-not-white-and-British that they'll suddenly champion the cause of 'humane animal treatment' just because "this is England (Britain) and we are a Christian country!!".

So in those circumstances you could say someone's (supposed, purely to be anti-halal as in other religious debate they lose all and any support for Christianity by saying things like 'religion should be banned') religion is playing a part in shaping government policy if more consideration is given to halal etc requirements.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I would suggest you aren't disagreeing with anything I said there - when I said religion has no place influencing I did mean just that - I didn't mention whether I was for or against a potential ban on halal meat, merely that religious beliefs have no business influencing policy on animal welfare, be they pro- of anti-halal, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Hindu or Scientologist.

It should be purely about the welfare of the animal, assessed as scientifically and appropriately as possible with as much evidence as it's possible to collect.

The animal's welfare should never come secondary to either the amount of people holding a belief in a particular version of an imaginary friend nor how vehemently that belief is held.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I'm hoping that comes up in another (relevant) thread as I have a few ideas of where maybe yourself (and certainly a great deal of other atheists/anti-religionists/whatever) would be in favour of religion having an influence in society. But that would be wayyyy off topic so I'll save it for another day :)

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Trust me. I'm no fan of religious beliefs. However, things being as they are, coupled with the fact that Halal and Kosher meat makes up a tiny proportion of the animals passing through abattoirs, I think an exemption could have been made.

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

Not sure what employment law has to with anything?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

An influence in the roots of moral codes, which is actually quite a false influence as those codes would exist with or without religion as they simply make sense in a civilised society, and an influence in legislation are very, very, very different things. :)

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I wasn't referring to moral codes. Patience, our day shall come ;)

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Any backwards move in legislation for welfare, animal or human, is surely a bad thing? And after speaking with several independant butchers, the "tiny proportion" is getting bigger each day, with chickens, for instance, almost almost all being killed "the halal way" as it's cheaper.

My wife's home town in France used to have about 11 local butchers, with only one of them halal. Now they are ALL halal butchers despite the local population not having anyway near a muslim majority. The original butchers went out of business as meat prices rocketted, but it seems halal butchers have an easy form of credit to move in and buy up the busineses. And all the local restaurants and fast food outlets now serve ONLY halal meats (I wonder how they get halal ham and peperoni for their pizzas :confused: ). And now the 2 local supermarkets have halal sections, well distanced from the pork section of course. ASDA here does too, but only in muslim-heavy areas.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

If any law/rule can be overridden on grounds of belief, then there is no valid reason for it to apply to everybody else. It would be too easy for people to declare a belief in something illegal or do the legal exceptions only apply to certain groups.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Oh our day will certainly come, sadly if I'm right I'll never get to gloat over it to you :p:

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

No I don't mean it like that :D

I meant I'm sure the relevant subject will pop up on CF and I will do in to detail then.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Rastafarians "require" marijuana as part of their "beliefs" AFAIK... so maybe they and other users can ignore the law?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

A lot of places have halal meat because it tastes no different and it's just easier to make it all halal than not. I find it odd that these places no longer serve pork as if they don't have a Muslim majority in the town then they are losing money as a result.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

And why would the halal butchers take over all the premises as the original owners went out of business because of rocketing meat prices - it doesn't matter what "easy form of credit (what does that mean, btw)" the new owners have, it will still be highly priced meat, surely, halal or not?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

The credit crunch has stopped, or vastly reduced, lines of credit for existing businesses or for those wishing to buy/start businesses by loans from "western" banks. But sharia law "loans" from Middle Eastern banks are apparently still very available for muslims.

And generally AFAIC halal meat is sold below what "western" butchers would consider a decent profitable price.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

There aren't many consumer/small business Muslim banks in France. You have to consider that these are often interest free loans so they are difficult to come by, even for Muslims. French itself doesn't have a big credit culture either.

If they are sold below a decent profitable price then how many the Halal butchers afford to keep going and not the 'Western' butchers anyway? They have to pay the same rent and presumably have a lower customer base than those who went out of business. What are they doing different?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Sharia bankloans don't usually come from "banks" in the country you are in, but by more direct routes from countries like Saudi Arabia. I know this because this is how 2 French muslim mates got money to buy their homes and a garage business between them.

Maybe muslim butchers don't want, or aren't allowed, to make large (probably huge) profits that "western" butchers" do?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I don't think many small butchers make a large profit. I don't understand how some butchers can't keep their business alive and others can, and the only difference is the Muslim ones serves a much smaller market.

It's also weird that a town can sustain 11 Halal butchers, especially in France where the Muslim population is much smaller. Where about in France is this?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

West of Paris (north of Paris is very halal too, but there's a majority muslim population there).

Quick burger that recently got attacked in several locations in France for selling only halal burgers without telling the local population that it had changed meat supplies (at first). They now provide non-halal burgers in those locations, "produced elsewhere and wrapped in cellophane."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6016381,00.html

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Were I used to work I can remember a pakistani guy who followed his religions food without fail.

When they had Ramadan, he would follow that. he would also ask a woman (NOT his daughter and not even related, but he new her father) in my mums department if she was also following it. She said yes, but when he had walked away would carry on eating her food.

I even worked with people whose religon bans them from eating pig products, and drinking alcohol, but both would either drink a beer, or have a bacon sarnie.

I had no problems with them. It was there choice.

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

I saw this article (or a similar one) with a table to say what meat sold in a supermarket was Halal - there's a table in the article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aughtered.html

I think people sholud be told whether something is Halal or not - allow people to choose rather than shoved down their throats

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

If Halal meat is produced with the same consideration for the animal's welfare as "regular" meat, then I've no objection. But is this the case?

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Various animal welfare bodies say no, and have been saying no for many, many years.

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

Hmmmm...

All NZ lamb is halal according to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aughtered.html

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/11/63.jpg


BUT...

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Sate...&ssbinary=true

So is it halal or not? A bit of a conundrum for strict halal muslims, and also for non-muslims concerned about animal welfare.

---------- Post added at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was at 16:43 ----------

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...nd-kosher-meat

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Two minutes?

Not if the are hung upside down, which if being butchered under Kosher/Halal guidelines, they would be.

Looks like the example is out of context.....

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Most animals are stunned before they are killed - halal or not. Not really much difference after that - the throat is silt or they are shot through the head.

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Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Where's the Halal pork :D

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Next to the kosher bacon....

Re: UK and Europe-wide ban next please!
 

Actually, that raises an interesting point. Can you have a piece of meat that is both halal and kosher?