Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15456585

Allegedly this report says that the Government is considering scrapping unfair dismissal in its entirety.

Wonder if it did so whether it would also be the end of redundancy. Why would a business pay redundancy when it could just kick someone out when they like.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

doubt they would get away with doing this as it would be in breech of human rights.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

it will be a dangerous path if they go down that road because basically it would give employers carte blanche to do whatever they want and at the end of the day you want a amicable relationship between employer and employee.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

But just think how great it would be for businesses and all the red tape that would be cut :rolleyes:

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

not really.

It would pave way for endless private lawsuits against businesses who are uncontrolled and treat their staff like rubbish.

It wont happen, workers HAVE TO! be protected by law especially at a time when the economy is like this or we will see people getting thrown out on their ear with companies not having to give a reason.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Just imagine you could have an affair with your secretary but you could just get rid when they get too old and you want a younger model

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

and then she could sue u for defermation of charactor and then u would have to prove u didnt but she is doing it out of spite and u then look a great plonker in the eyes of ur workers, wife, kids etc etc and it may not have happened if there were laws in place and u wernt so tempted to act the plonker.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Should you be in the least surprised about this under a Tory government as they do not like workers having any legal rights in work.

I expect a knighthood for the person who come up with this idea if not a seat in the Lords.

I see that it was commissioned by our wonderful prime minister so his public schoolboy chums will be loving him once again.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Of that l have no doubt.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Have doubt.....;)

From the OP link...

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I could imagine the uproar it would cause if they tried to go forward with it.:D

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Agreed - but, like many things, the current system is open to abuse, but imho that means we fix the current system, not abolish it.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

You would need to take the handwringers out of the equation.;)

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Yes it would be nice if we could fix the current system but somehow l can see us saying this in another 10 years.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I knew it was only a proposal and probably wouldn't happen but then again Governments repeatedly have a habit of doing stupid things

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

thats why they want it scraped so the can freely persecute workers with disgusting work practices/rights, The unemployed for not taking imaginary jobs, the disabled for being sick. Elderly for being living too long.

This coalisition sounds more like stalin/hitler or any other nasty dictator. I wondering when gas chambers getting anounced work labour camps.

Political camps for those who dont support them.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Hmm! I think they would have to do away with ECHR before they can get to this.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Well your reaction makes me remember poem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6

Maybe when you start getting issues you might then start panic demonstrate but it will be too late.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

if it is passed i would love the first Victim to be Cameron LOL!!

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

It wont happen so don't worry about it.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Actually, I have been through the unfair dismissal route, but I didn't think at the time (or now) to compare it to genocide.

You may wish to have a reality check....

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Does the ECHR apply to employment? I didn't think anyone has a right to employment and I can't see anything in ECHR that applies. If there is a right to employment, I wonder what the unemployed could do.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Let me see.Racial equality,gender equality,age equality.If there are no human rights applied in the workforce basically one could be left with slavery becoming the only option..

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Ok - I just couldn't see one that directly applied to businesses employing staff. The way I saw it was Government may be bound by ECHR and they may then introduce laws for businesses to follow. I'm not for these proposals but I can see Governments getting desperate to use these sorts of measures. Of course, if we stop using the ECHR that won't be able to defend us

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Sorry to hear that so you well aware companies may use this to lets say fiddle it to mug employee and get shot someone they may have to pay decent wad serverance pay.

I am pointing out the slow erosing of our rights the nasty vilous attacks of people who suffering who already on the bottom pits. On so called argument they caused the country mess. Cleverly sucking upto those who have caused the mess banks super rich companies and stock market.

Its not disabled or unemployed or even pentioners fault now they want start even on workers.

Now yes there maybe some workers run to the limit as long they working then stuff the companies. There is many good companies out there if you employed by them you work hard even go extra bit to help them through sticky patch as they treat you fairly. But there some horrendious employers I dont blame anybody taking those firms for ride as long job done to contract then they have every right to slack off as they say.

Now I accept there is incidences of workshy in unemployment is this exactly really big deal as likely there will also be unemployed anyway. We cant have 100% employment governments would not want it. They like there whip around to keep worker in check. Who going to employ Jobcentre staff when there no unemployed.

Accept even in DLA there odd swingers but nothing to the numbers who being thrown off ill health never to be employed while able out there and foreign work labour. Crazy thing some not all who got injured possibly at work related accidents due to weak H & S practises. Would love to see breakdown who was born with illness/disability, accident work/outside etc

Then we come to horrendious idea increaing pension age of retirement which obviously impacts on what will be available viscious circle causing another generation of there so called workshy. Get the age limit down keep those who can offer something like teaching trade I say.
Pensions problem due to hole which was created by city workers ie BANKS stupidly investing pensions in the stocks.

Yes there is the few but does it give them the right to make rules change policies which runs roughshod over the majority NO it does not but sadly thats this coalision way they dont care.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

There is some merit in this report and i agree with quite a lot of it .There are people who do "coast along" at work being unproductive ,they make it there mission in life to do as little as possible and know the employment law inside out especially in the public sector.It would be a great benefit to companies to be able to get rid of people like these without fear of being taken to a tribunal

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I fail to see how these lazy people are getting away with it. If you give someone tasks to do and they don't do them then give them a verbal warning (following rules - formal meeting, right to be accompanied etc.). If it happens again a written warning (same rules) - set them targets for improvement a reasonable time for improvement. If still no improvement then another formal meeting, issue final warning, set more targets etc. Still no improvement then sack them.
Seems simple to me, manage them properly.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Ah, the old coalition public sector bashing.

Just out of interest, how can you assert that this is factually correct, especially your "especially" comment?

What is the quantifiable basis for your assertion?

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

works fine in principle ,long winded and usually expensive for the company involved or the tax payer if it happens in the public sector .Private companies usually have no problem in identifying the slackers but getting rid of them is a long winded process


nothing to do with the coalition (don't know where you get from)but anyway ,i see it and experience it everyday.I see manual workers for local authorities (who i work alongside of)doing just enough to stay the right side of the negotiated work rate which is embarrassingly low,I experience the loss of work because some paper pusher within the local authority has continually done a half assed job on a scale that would not be tolerated anywhere else .Only today on an estate i am fitting on we have discovered that 85 windows have been manufactured wrongly because the council ,or more precisely ,someone within the clerk of works dept didn't check the specs properly ,and not for the first time ,so that now means they have to be re manufactured and refit at great cost to the council which in turn means that roughly 9 houses won't get new windows ,which will be a loss of work for the company i sub contract to ,all because someone couldn't' be arsed or didn't know their job well enough .
I feel sure that everyone knows someone at work who coasts along doing the bear minimum and in my experience the public sector is awash with them

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

So, it was intended as an "in my experience" statement, thanks for clearing that up, cheers.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Just thinking about how the ECHR could stop this. I wonder how firms can get away with firing people unfairly in the first twelve months at the moment. If the ECHR applies to the unfair dismissal rules then wouldn't it apply from day one of employment, as it stands?

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I don't see where the ECHR comes in at all unless they have been fired as a result of discrimination, in which case it would apply from day one but would be hard to invoke as they got the job.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Maternity leave is a matter of human rights surely?Firing someone because they have reached a certain age is a matter of human rights..equal pay for both genders is a matter of human rights?

Employment Law may not be enshrined in the ECHR but Employment Law came about because of the application of human rights.If unfair dismissal were to be abolished then the workforce will just turn to the ECHR for clarification and I predict they would get the support they would be looking for.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I would have thought that if the ECHR applies to dismissals then someone 'unfairly' dismissed within their first year of employment would have tested this in the courts by now, as the ECHR has been law in this country for more then ten years. My suspicion is it ECHR doesn't apply directly to dismissal law.

If the timescale was to change to unlimited then any court case raised by the former employee may need to funded by that person.

I don't think their case would qualify for a share of the reduced legal aid budget and the government is trying to eliminate no-win-no-fee. Therefore someone without an income is going to have to risk their finances to clear their name

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I can see unions giving it a go though.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I think they would try to, just I'd have thought they would've given it a go by now. Especially with the Government change last year

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

It would be a matter of discrimination which covered by the ECHR but there isn't a human rights violation if someone is fired simply because they were disliked personally or as a quick way to get someone of the books. Presumably the latter is a matter of employment law.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

didn't say it wasn't :shrug: and i'm positive that it is the case in other peoples experience as well

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Compare the USA's at-will employment system, where, since an employee can leave a job for any reason, in turn an employer can terminate the employment for any reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Some people are getting over excited about this. If you read the headline "Unproductive workers should lose their right to claim unfair dismissal, a leaked government report says".

Well if you are an employer, and there are people working for you who don't do their job properly, and instead of being productive, they actually cost the business money, then it is very difficult to get rid of them. The changes are to make it easier to get rid of unproductive workers, and not productive ones.

We need to remember that unproductive workers have a knock on effect for all of us, pushing up production costs, and therefore prices for consumers.

If you do your job to the best of your ability, then there is nothing to worry about. But if you are lazy, and do the bare minimum, then move over and let someone else do your job instead.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Absolutely spot on ,any company will want to keep productive workers so they have no worries .A lot of money is spent by companies trying to get unproductive workers off their books or trying to get them productive or fixing the problems they cause.People have to remember that a job is not a right and if you are lucky enough to have one then look after it .Also why the hell should a person who has built up a company over a number of years put up with unproductive workers who are costing them money

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

So they abolish the retirement age and plan to maybe bring this in instead. Would be a way of removing older people who are not as productive as younger people.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Wonder where it would leave women who get pregnant?I can remember a time when dismissal was the result.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Or those whose "face didn't fit" or those who dared stand up to a bullying boss?

There needs to be an appropriate process, with checks and balances, that cannot be abused by either side of the management fence (in an ideal world).

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

It's not going to leave them anywhere Maggie :rolleyes:.There will still be employment rules ,we aren't talking about abolition of unfair dismissal across the board just for those who are unproductive and that would have to be proven,if a pregnant women is productive and does her job well then she has nothing to worry about .

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

And I'm quoting from the original article.

So do you still maintain it's a good idea?

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

yes ,read the last line of your quote

"I think if you look at our productivity problem, it's down to poor investment, poor training and poor management."

all of the above could be down to people doing a half assed job so realy John Philpott has kind of shot himself in the foot

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I guess this proposal could make it easier for a firm just to get of staff in times of an economic downturn. Imagine a building full of staff (lazy or otherwise), just create a reason why they should go and you can dispose of. No need to worry about paying redundancies either.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

No it doesn't at all ,as i said earlier any employer would have to prove the need for dismissal as they do now ,written and verbal warnings ect ,the only difference is dragging a company through a costly, time consuming and quite often pointless tribunal won't be a automatic right

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

So it's not those at the bottom who should be dismissed but those in management?I don't think that's what was the original intent of the proposal..:D

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Come on Maggy, you are making up problems now. Where does it say that employers can sack women because they are pregnant?

We are talking about workers who are lazy, and have taken advantage of the fact that it is difficult to get rid of them.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

There is!!!!

They aren't talking about getting rid of all workers rights. They are talking about making it easier for employers to get rid of workers who are costing them money, rather than making them money.

I have employed people before who think it is their right to just turn up for work, and get paid, regardless of them actually doing anything productive. These are the sort of people who cause companies to go bust, which has a knock on effect for all the hard workers in the company who lose their jobs.

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------

I do yes. This government don't have many good ideas, but this is one of the very few they have had.

Th part of the report that you quoted in my opinion is actually wrong. If workers realise that there is a good risk that they can lose their jobs if they are lazy, and don't perform, then they will be more likely to work harder. If they don't and they are replaced by someone else who will work hard, then that was their own fault, and nobody elses. Either way the company has a more productive workforce, and is more likely to survive these difficult times.

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------

And all of the above would point to poor management. In other words unproductive managers, who also need to improve or be replaced.

---------- Post added at 21:54 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------

Unfortunately this goes on at the moment. Back in the days when you had to work somewhere for three months to have any rights, my wife got a job with a company who just employed people for three months, and then got rid of them.

On the other hand, if a company has to lay people off in order to survive, then that's what they have to do. Otherwise the end result will be the company closing, and all of the staff losing their jobs.

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:54 ----------

Sometimes it is management yes.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I have worked with people who are a waste of space, but the company couldn't get rid of them.

One of them would sneeze then take a week off work sick:rolleyes:

when redundancys came guess what, my mum went, she stayed.

I should also add her mum worked in HR.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

stop twisting things maggie ,you should know better :rolleyes:

The original proposal was to help companies get rid of unproductive staff be they management or unskilled manual workers,a much needed proposal imo ,it does not mean the return of work houses where the worker has no rights,it simply levels the playing field a bit

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

How would the law define unproductive/lazy workers? An employer could say that anyone they wanted to dispose off was unproductive, how could it be shown that they weren't?

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

The law doesn't have to ,a company simply compares the work rate of the suspect employee to others in the company doing a similar job ,if it's felt the work rate is too low then the company starts the procedure of warnings

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Downside to the issue is those who get redundancies either forced to use it live off so No Dole money paid by government. The other is how many use it to go into there own business.

Its sad state affairs when people think companies can chuck people to scrapheap with out pay for NOT DISMISIBLE actions.

I dont think its about getting rid lazy people its like you said its way to stop paying redundancies.

Its sham horrid dangerious move which will ultimalely hurt Government and economy.

How many people worked for company who sets a target for it to be met by incentives only shift goalposts make it harder to achieve. Loses workers morale thus workers get into mode where they do enough to satisfy they working hard but not going the extra yard as performance target is too hard to achieve. Happened at my brother in law chemical factorry they basically wanted to flog them to death to get production levels.

Fact many workers forced to do to mans jobs for same pay morale can easily go down or up.

If employers want hard work then they should provide carrots it could be a worker wins holiday. Extra pay incentive shares in company or even extra day off. Would say most companies who provide nice incentives dont get lazy workers. Those who have managers who dont treat workers nice are miserable environments which get workers doing just enough.

Before policy change ocurs maybe companies should be educated in motivation for workforce techniques and staff treatment skills.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I think you are prepared to put a lot of faith in 'The Management'. However I'm not and I don't think this has a snowballs chance of getting into law luckily.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Except we are... or at least the author of the report is.

Where do you get that from? The point is not just to remove the "threat" of being taken to a tribunal afterwards, but also to make it quicker and easier to dismiss people in the first place. Dismissal via standard disciplinary procedures could still be used, however the company could simply use the proposed new method instead to remove someone quicker than the "verbal, written, final warning" route.



Yes, the stated reason for removing unfair dismissal is to "make it easier to remove underperforming employees", but it is not "only" those kinds of employees for whom the unfair dismissal process would be removed - it is actually wholesale removal "across the board" which is being discussed, to be replaced with "Compensated No Fault Dismissal" (because simply removing it completely and leaving it at that would be even more politically unacceptable).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/j...t-advises.html


See also The Original Report (link from the Telegraph story)

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I imagine the next thing they'll think about is Health and Safety at Work. Don't matter if a few more workers die - they were just lazy.

With regards to metrics being used to show who are unproductive, a firm could always choose the one to get rid of the workers it wants to get rid of.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

So do you think that companies should be forced to continue to employ staff whos work rate is so low that they actually cost the company more than it earns??

You haven't been in business have you?

---------- Post added at 23:19 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

Some people have to be over dramatic don't they.....don't forget there is still human rights under European law.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

There is no proposal to remove the standard disciplinary procedure just the unfair dismissal claim that would go to a tribunal .

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I didn't say there was a proposal for that - and I actually said "Dismissal via standard disciplinary procedures could still be used".

However there is more to this than simply removing the unfair dismissal claim - the point is to make it quicker and easier to sack people, not just prevent them from going to a tribunal afterwards. Removing unfair dismissal doesn't just prevent people from going to a tribunal after a disciplinary procedure, it also enables the company to sack someone without needing that procedure in the first place, as no dismissal would be "unfair" (unless discriminatory of course).

The proposal actually talks about something the author calls "Compensated No Fault Dismissal" - which would enable companies to sack people with "basic redundancy pay and notice", without having to go through the standard disciplinary procedure of different stages of warning (which would have no notice or pay at the very end, but obviously take a lot longer due to the stages).

A company could follow the disciplinary procedure, and give someone a verbal warning, written warning, final warning, and finally dismiss them... With no "threat" of being taken to a tribunal.

Or... A company could dismiss someone via "Compensated No Fault Dismissal", where the employee does actually get notice and a form of redundancy pay, but is removed far faster than via the disciplinary route.

If all the proposal involved was removing unfair dismissal so that those removed via disciplinary proceedings could not take action against their former employer, the author would not have also mentioned "Compensated No Fault Dismissal" and also would not have admitted that his proposal could lead to employers sacking people simply because they "did not like them".

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

"Unproductive" can be a relative term. Referring back to the American "at-will" employment system,it's not unusual for staff to work on long after their contracted finishing time every day so as not to be the first out and therefore classified as the least productive and the top of the dismissal list.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

It's quite simple. Most companies will have targets, and those targets will be set at a rate that makes the company money. If an employee falls below that target and they are costing the company more money than they are making. There is no point in any companies employing people like this.

As someone said earlier, having a job is not a right, you have to earn the place at interviews etc, and then prove that you are as good as you said you are. And then you have to maintain that standard.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

This is where I'm confused. Can you explain why this can't be resolved using the current disciplinary processes?
Granted it takes time under the current processes but I don’t see a need for change.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

How will productive tragets be set for people like engineers who go out fix problems. An engineer could be told they have to respond to ten different events each day, but they could get to the first one and it does take day to resolve because it is a really serious problem. In this instance they've failed to meet their ten-a-day target and could then be labelled lazy and got rid off which the firm could back up with the reason why.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

It can, but the current process can take a very long time. Not good if a lazy worker is costing your company a fortune.

I'm not expert, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can still go down the unfair dismissal route even after going through the current discplinary route.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Yes you can but that is the crux of the proposal eg the removal of basically the right to appeal to ACAS.

I have employed people as a sole trader and also within the capacity of a director. The red tape reached proportions where we hired a HR specialist to make cases to stay within the law and avoid expensive ACAS settlements.

Anything which removes the safeguards which have built up will throw open a return to the past where nobody is safe and it is easy to build a case against anybody, not that building a case would be needed.

Doing a job diligently and to the best of one's ability is no safeguard against this proposal. If somebody else could and is willing to do the same job for less the replacement effectively is more productive than the the current worker which by default makes the current worker comparatively unproductive.

This proposal will never see the light of day because in effect it would create open season on a race to the bottom with wage\salary battles. Business may love the idea but it would be mayhem socially.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I can see your point, and agree with you. However I haven't looked into this in detail, as it is only a proposal.

The idea is good, but there need to be safeguards built in to protect against employers who will use it as a weapon. An example would be staff who aren't actually productive due to the nature of their job. An example would be Firefighters, who apart from their fire safety work are reactive rather than productive. So in their case employers who need to make budget cuts could just say that Joe Bloggs isn't productive, so we will get rid of them. Then the worst case scenario would be when lives are lost due to their not being enough firefighters.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

If the company has evidence of poor performance they have honestly got nothing to worry about. They can implement performance targets in the contract even if needed.

To me this proposed change of legislation is nothing more than to allow companies to sack people on the whim when they need a quick cash injection.

Osborne pondering to businesses again.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

I am sure that under European law there would be some protection to prevent this.

Re: Unfair dismissal could be abolished
 

Hmm I'm sure I remember some one at work banging on about that now he was past retirement age the firm could just get rid of him no questions asked, no reason given.

My own view is that in the last 4 years I've seen our company taken to court a dozen times for wrongful dismissal and every case I can recall has been pretty tame and the amounts demanded ludicrous and all save a couple have ended up being settled out of court as each one defended costs thousands before it even gets to the tribunal, perhaps a better way forward would be instead of abolishing it just to cut the shysters out, make the defendant and his evidence stand or fall before the tribunal without sleazy lawyers milking everything further.