For those of us unfit to work
 

A blog post that made me stop and think about how it really feels.

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blog...res-irony.html

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Yes the current atmosphere is so anti disabled and so anti fat that its ridiculous.

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Yes the prejudiced and uncaring atmosphere without the full facts.

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Very well written, and I feel for the lady, but she does, imho, resort to , understandably, what could be seen as extremely emotive statements at times, such as

which don't quite gel with I think she is as guilty as the Daily Mail of using a broad brush approach to the subject, and whilst I cannot understand/share the suffering she goes through, as I am not disabled (but I can sympathise), she is at one end of the spectrum of Disability, whilst the cases of alleged fakery and fraud the DM and others highlight are at the other, and to gather them all up and treat them as the same doesn't help things (and I include the Government in that statement).

And before anyone uses the line of "you don't understand because you haven't experienced it", my mum was in receipt of whatever DLA was called at the time for 15 years before she passed away, and my sister is currently in receipt of it due her crippling arthritis.

We, as a society, have a duty to take care of those less able, but we need to, somehow, differentiate those who need our support, and those who don't but still take it. There are no easy answers, but we can't ignore the issue.

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I totally agree Hugh. A friend of mine was an alcoholic and because the only thing he did was sleep all day and play consoles all night while drinking a bottle of vodka he ended up with deep vein thromboses. My daughter had cerebral palsy, epilepsy, learning difficulties, heart problems, right hemopledga, and behaviour problems. He received more money from the government than she did.

He used to say they are paying me to drink, so I am all for the shake up, but people who are really disabled are being made to think they should be able to work no matter what.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Yes you have summed up the nub of the problem and that those need should get the help they need and those who basically fiddle the system should face the consequences but the problem is this does not happen and l am afraid in the current anti disabled benefit climate it is unlikely to happen now or anytime soon.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Den, I would agree with you - unfortunately, the present climate means those who need the help may be made to suffer too, which is wrong.

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THese days it's definately not unusual to be classified a scrounger. I most definately am by several people on here and other people I know.

The daily fail and government have accomplished what they set out to do.

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As far as l am concerned you have never and never will be a scrounger as people who think that are ignorant of the facts and of your disabilities.

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I took our twins to the GP yesterday to get the "Sick Notes" the ESA staff demand before continuing the longwinded claim process, that will no doubt end in them being classed as "fit for work" which is what we have always said!

But "fit for work" with limitations and need of support is what we are really trying to explain to them.

But the bureaucratic process must wind its way through their lives keeping penpushers in jobs.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

i have just won my DLA back after appeal and have been placed in a non workgroup for ESA as my illnesses mean i cannot work and im thankful for this even tho its taken 4 months they stopped all my benefits after both ESA and DLA lost my forms within 6 weeks of each other.

My mates wife is totally blind and she has pain behind her eyes due to her condition and is on medication that makes her very tired. They found her fit for work and stated that aslong as she has someone with her at a work place she will be ok. It will end up costing them more than it would to just pay her benefits.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I do and always have felt like a sponger and i know that is purely down to me i am living a way i was never bought upto live i joined the army as soon as i was old enough starting off in the junior leaders (no comments needed from some of you :)) and got wounded on deployment. It wasn't my fault but the fact is to me it doesn't feel right to not be working and earning the way i was bought up to believe a man should.

Now we live in a climate where people like me who have no chance of working normally if at all ever again are made to feel we are a burden on our country and others. We are and people like me always have been but in the past we had the dignity as a society to not make that clear and rub it in the faces of those like me. Yes there is fraud we all know there is i know better then any moron at the daily hate but the scale of it really isn't as big as some people like to believe and most of those doing it are repeat offenders allowed to carry on doing it by the system itself.

Trouble is it is always easier to play to the baying mob then try to educate them or tell them why they are wrong and when that baying mob holds enough votes we no longer have politicians of courage and decency to want to do it anyway. I have seen many times the quote of "a society is judged on how it treats it's prisoner's" or near enough but to me thats wrong the true mark of a society is how it treats and regards it's most vulnerable. I do worry now that i will have all my benefits taken off me because some numpty at atos declares me fit for work and although i will get any back on appeal you don't get back the months of worry and stress that is caused by losing your benefits for that time.

How i wish i could work because despite what some think if i could work i damn well wouldn't be anywhere near a benefit it isn't the holiday and good time that many think it is or that some of our less reputable media make it out to be.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Congrats in getting it sorted.

I'm with Rizzy when it comes to the stress of always worrying. Never knowing if I'm going to go from full benefit to zero from one month to the next. Never being able to settle and relax, which just makes my illness all the worse.

Reading that blog, I'm pretty much not far off illness wise, same illness etc, got the strictures, but kidney and liver disease on top as well, as what all that brings. But still I worry.

I know I shouldn't but when all you hear is the doom and gloom and the niiave, the brick walls and moving goalposts the politicians put up, sometimes reading anything online is just too difficult. I just have to keep telling myself there's always going to be way too many bad stories compares to just a few of the good ones.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I am currently waiting to hear about DLA, but im not hopeful. Even though I meet the governent set definition of blindness and getting higher rate mobility.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

From what I gather you're being too honest, and so are many, but you need to figure out better wording etc to put on the forms. I would say I'm fine to anyone I meet/greet and I feel like a fraud for filling in forms because I fill them in on the instruction of others (the correct way as in your worse or even an avg day) but when I read them back to myself it all looks so wrong, yet deep down I know it isn't, it's just being truthful.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Good luck.

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CHeers - just as well I'm the patient type ;)

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Hope you get a positive outcome Dili but if you don't next time you apply fill in the forms in terms of your worst day not your average or best i know it sounds bad but your not lying and it is how you have to do it to get what your entitled too m8. Certain citizen advice bureaus now have people that can help you fill in the forms and increase your chances of getting a positive outcome or if you have a carer there are carer support groups who also have dedicated benefit advisors thats how we finally got our claim accepted.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

It's sadly ironic that honest long term sick/disabled people so often find it hard to adequately articulate their problems (frequently understating them for various reasons) whilst serial scroungers think nothing of exaggerating their 'symptoms' and use every other trick in the book to screw the system.

It's not only the system which these people abuse, it's all the honest sick and disabled who consequently find even more hoops being put in their way and scepticism directed at them as they struggle to claim what all right minded people fully appreciate they are entitled to.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

:clap:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Excellent post.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

21:30 Thursday - I hope you're all watching BBC2 !!

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I work very hard for my wages each month and pay in the region of £500.00 in tax, l have a family and it makes me sick to the stomach where l find people are raking in benefit and claiming they cannot work.

I know people that haven't work for years claiming they have something wrong with them and even tell you how to con the people, that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

There are some decent honest people that cannot work, through no fault of there own, and yet they get hit the hardest.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

The problem is that those who really need benefits suffer because of those who abuse the system.

Obviously the woman in the OP's link was one of the people who does need DLA, and is certainly not a scrounger. However I know of someone who has been a benefit and DLA scrounger for many years, until he recently had his DLA stopped, and lost the lease car. At the time my wife said that she felt sorry for them because they can't take the children out without a car. Then I explained that it takes the tax from 4 people on my wages to pay for all the benefits they received.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Let's not play the game of how much we pay each month in tax Arthur.

Welfare is never going to be perfect, there's lots to do, there will always be some affected, quite wrongly, by changes. The balance is never going to be completely right.

There are major, major problems with the UK's welfare state. If anyone has all the answers I'm sure the DWP would like to hear them.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I don't see the connection of the 'game' that you're seeking, unless you just like to let everyone know how much you're earning and how much tax you're paying again. :shrug:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Didn't cross my mind, was intending to point out it doesn't make opinions any more valid.

Feeling a bit insecure peanut?

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

No just bored of hearing it that's all. :)

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I didn't actually say it, have only commented on it once or at most twice as far as I can remember, and the ignore button is within your control panel if I bother you so much. Thx.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

A part week payment has just been made to my daughter... but I only sent in the first "sick note" yesterday and have not even finished filling in the claim form!

:confused:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

ESA dont wait for the sick note but would want the money back if it didn't arrive.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

To start with they need to get rid of Frued. He is an ex banker and knows how to make money, so what is he doing advising on welfare? his sole purpose must be to tell the government how to cut the welfare bill and thats it. Shows how wrong their current attitude is.

Now I have no problem with improving efficiency and such, but the well being of the claimants should be a high priority and at the same time there should be limitations in what financial help they get as it has to stay reasonable. But everything that is happening now with the sick is just very wrong, its not even close to been balanced. eg. doing medical reviews every 3 months, its as if they think people just have the flu or something and will get better over night.

I emailed both osborne and duncan smith about suggestions and ideas based on my experience (ex claimant and lots of charity work helping claimants) but I didnt even get the courtesy of a reply. Yet they happy to listen to the rich for 50k a meal.

The new ESA has an extra category 'limited capability to work' which is where the bulk of successful claimants are been put, less money and have to do work related activity. My problem is I think the DWP should help with them getting doable jobs but not force them. Basically there is a lot of people on IB/ESA who want to work, this goes against what the daily mail say but is true. So they should be helped and the ones who dont but have legally been declared unfit for work should be left alone, unless of course new evidence comes to light suggesting they fit for work. Its a very important point to make as well that if someone declared unfit for work is made to do work related activity and their health declines, they can sue the DWP. I expect within 5 years we will see this happen and after one person wins the floodgates will open. Dont make the mistake thinking no one will win, because claimants have a very high success rate on appeals and tribunals.

The assessment has been changed yet again this month, and in addition the expiry time for returning ESA50 forms has decreased so they still seem to be just making it harsher and harsher. The end game is probably to have next to no claimants as some people seem to think people of working age cannot get crippling chronic conditions.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

We have a major, major problem in the UK, there are people out there who cannot work, and fully deserve any benefit they can get, but there are people out there that milk the system.

The system is very frail, and l was once under a gp, l went to see for a leg problem, he examined me and stated what l had to do to get better, he then asked me how long l wanted off work and he would give a certificate for it.

He gave me a Cert for three months, I could use the leg etc, but that is how easy it was, nowadays, this problem is still going on.

I read an article a couple of months ago that a young man who had lost a leg, as he was SEEN kicking a ball, with his only leg. The benefit people stopped his benefit.

This is wrong.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I agree with you, except for the bit in bold. There was a firefighter who lost his leg from the knee down in a motorcycle accident.After a great deal of physio, and a false leg, he returned to work as a firefighter. So I doubt very much that he still claims DLA. So with the person who was kicking the ball, I presume they stopped his benefit because with his false leg, he was fully mobile again.

We really do need to know both sides of the story.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Agreed.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

This could be the ESA slogan film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFWr-...layer_embedded

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

not that easy.

workplaces accept GP notes, but IB/ESA have their own doctors. GP notes will be enough to start off on benefit but it doesnt work for the duration.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

GP sicknotes will "work for the duration" as long as the outcome of the Atos administered alogrithm and the ESA decision maker do not combine to score an individual below the threshold of the required 15 points.

At the appeal stage appellants are contesting the decision, not a perceived diagnosis of their medical condition. Hence there is no medical intervention beyond "reasoning" at the appeal stage.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

You contradicted yourself there, you basically said GP notes work but then said it requires the user to be assessed by atos as unfit for work. Sometimes an ESA DM can reward the points without an atos assessment but I have never seen that happen on GP evidence alone and without any previous atos medicals. Usually would need strong evidence from a consultant or higher and even then its rare. I have seen GP evidence be enough on renewals but not without at least 1 atos medical before hand.

At the appeal stage there should be a doctor present at the hearing to assess medical evidence. Since after all the claimant is contesting the medical assessment (points scored).

So a claimant can carry on sending GP notes however if atos disagree with the GP then the benefit will be withdrawn, after a certian point GP notes are not enough alone.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

It's not a contradiction, it's a statement of fact. A GP note will "work for the duration" until a claimant falls foul of Atos & the decision makers combined determination.

Which is what I said.

Again, this is what I said in relation to GP notes, see above.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Well i cannot speak for any other doctors surgery other then my own but getting a sicknote for longer then a week is no easy thing anymore and usually they are only given on the understanding you'll go for further tests and consultants appointments. We have allowed the likes of the daily hate and certain politicians to blow the whole welfare fraud thing out of all proportion to enable them to hit far larger groups who are genuine and not conning the system.

As it stands right now most of the public will go along with pretty much any welfare reform they hear about as long as the obligatory "combatting benefit fraud" rubbish is tacked on it somewhere. There is fraud i have never denied it hell i have seen it for myself and reported it for all the good that did and thats another thing. You can report people yet very little seems to happen to longterm persistent offenders almost as though someone somewhere doesn't really want to get rid of fraud as much as they say.

This whole massive benefit fraud is one of the biggest political snowjobs i have ever seen and it is being done very well with the aid of certain media outlets happy to perpetuate the myth that all the hard working taxpayers are being royally ripped off all the time by benefit claimants. This si not something that claimants can resolve it has to be done by society on a whole saying "enough is enough" no more hitting the most vulnerable in our society actually go after those doing far worse and having a far greater affect ie. tax evaders who cost this country more then benefit fraud ever could.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

If it's your earning: then you did (recently). Basic and bonus. It's in the moans thread.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

How did he stay standing up? :confused:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Yeah I know, I was referring to this thread, quite aware of that one, apologised in advance but necessary to emphasise total exasperation and ridiculous state of affairs having to move due to housing costs. Wasn't a 'Considerably Richer Than You' post :)

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Ah, Fair enough.

Anyway, get out of London. Problem solved... :)

I pay £1100 each month in tax.

These changes are just stupid your always going to get people that cheat and work the system it's just a fact of life.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I disagree - those defrauding the system reduce the money available for those who need it, and the fraudsters also negatively affect the public view of valid claimants.

To do nothing, just because it is difficult, is a cop-out, imho.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Also tho by doing something eg. using a sledgehammer to kill a fly they denying money to legit claimants as they turning legit claimants down.

If they were that concerned about the legit claimants they wouldnt be going in so ad hoc.

The comment about GP notes longer than a week has merit as well, even tho my sister got told after her mini stroke she would be off work for months, she has had to go in weekly for sick notes.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

You mean "Fit" notes.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

yeah whatever the modern name is :)

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

This doesn't mean you should just not bother sorting it out surely?

Incidentally I just want a fair test / system to claim these benefits not no system.

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I will go out on a limb here and say its impossible.

1 - there will always be a level of fraud. Only way to stop that is withdraw it the entire benefit, also to mention there is fraud on all benefits rather than just IB as the press love to make out.
2 - It can either be too soft or too harsh, my view is a perfect middle ground isnt possible.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Strange....

Link page 2, section 4

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

It can be issued that long but it seems GPs are choosing to not do so now, at least not as often.

The real world is often different to whats legislated.

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But that cannot be laid at the feet of ATOS, Decision Makers, or the Government of the day, surely.....

More important people to go after like the banks bonuses etc. IMO.

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Ultimately ATOS are doing what they told whilst of course making a profit as after all they a private company. DM's likewise will act how they been pushed. The agenda is less on benefits so thats what will happen regardless if right or wrong.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/fr...00/9630233.stm

This sort of thing doesn't help the genuine claimant much does it! :mad:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

No l am afraid it does not and once certain sections of the media get these stories we then start to get a very distorted and one sided view about Welfare claimants.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

The question has to be asked again tho, what is the bbcs agenda?

yet another documentary on benefit fraud.

yet the one they did for the other side of the fence was only aired in scotland.

also the bbc is quoting wrong information again stating a very vague experts as source.

osborne stated right after the election 5 billion was lost to fraud but then was corrected down to 1.5billion (across the entire benefit system) with the other 3.5 lost to admin errors. So curious how the bbc has got a 4 billion figure.

I will say as well the bbc is the news agency who have refused to print stories regarding unfair treatment of claimants and correct articles stating its not in the public's interests.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Agreed.

I think I said this earlier, but there is a family that I know well, and the Dad was claiming full rate DLA for an injury that he has now almost fully recovered from. The mum doesn't work either, and there are 4 children living at the property. My wife felt sorry for them when the DLA was stopped, and they lost the car.

I explained to my wife that it took the tax from 4 people on my wage just to support them with DLA and other benefits. So the fact that they have lost their DLA, and now had to get a job, means that all that tax from 4 people on my wage will now go somewhere else rather than paying a scrounger.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

Thats because her disability isn't a long term one.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

That's a completely different matter. One isfunded by tax payers, the other is private business (even though our taxes do have to prop them up occasionally).

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Make your mind up. Was he injured or was he "a scrounger".

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------


Do you work for ATOS ot the ESA by any chance? If not you should consider doing so as you appear to have the same visionary distance diagnosis medical skills they employ.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------


Banks are funded by tax payers also, it's where we put our money - and not only when they need bailing out.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Just to clarify, in tune with my earlier post, I was being critical of the alleged actions of the claimants involved not the BBC's reasons for doing the programme.

For every cheat or fraudster there are probably dozens if not hundreds of decent people who are entilted to and rely upon what are all too often very meagre benefits. There are also many who are entitled yet don't claim for reasons as their own pride and dignity.

In this area, the actions of the few make life so much harder for the majority both directly and indirectly. It's right that these people are exposed and punished if found guilty but I would like to see the degree of fraud better quantified. This would the public to put it into context and better understand that it's a minority involved in this sort of thing and life's quite tough enough for the genuine claimant.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Try reading my posts. He was injured a long time ago, but for years he as been doing decorating jobs, patios, and building work. So his knee injury obviously isn't stopping him working.

So in answer to your question, he was injured, but for many years he has just been a scrounger.


[QUOTE=Mr Angry;35324754]Do you work for ATOS ot the ESA by any chance? If not you should consider doing so as you appear to have the same visionary distance diagnosis medical skills they employ.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------



It's quite simple, you just read the post, and then you will understand. It's nothing to do with super human powers or anything


You either really don't understand the banking system, or you are just being confrontational.

A bank is a private business, and is not funded by taxes.....simples!!!

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Did you medically examine him or are you just as medically qualified as the ESA decision makers?


---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

Yes, you're right - it is quite simple. You are not medically qualified to attest to the individuals medical condition other than on the basis of your own quite clear prejudices. Additionally you appear to be overlooking the fact that ill people can work entirely legitimately and still be in receipt of benefits.

I'm not sure that banks do constitute private businesses in the true sense of the word as most of them are listed. Additionally I didn't say banks were "funded by taxes". That said, however, the fact of the matter is that currently many are.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I think ATOS will love this report. An excuse to ignore the wide variation in effects of the disorder and just pigeonhole them all together.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...al-skills.html

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

You really ought to read posts properly. As I said, I know him really well (but I'm not telling you how). He openly admitted that he was milking the system. And he has now lost his DLA, so he obviously wasn't entitled to it, but he just carried on claiming it as long as he could get away with it.

As for the person who said that their mother had had a stroke. They actually said that they probably wouldn't be able to work for a year. Normally you don't qualify for DLA if it is an injury illness that you will recover from (you will know this if you read the form). However in this case it appears that they do need the extra assistance, and the DLA have made special arrangements where the need is monitored on a regular basis. Hence the doctors notes, which is all I was explaining.

My son is actually on the lower rate DLA.

So don't accuse me of having prejudices.


As for the banks. Go in your local branch and ask them if they are financed by taxes. Then look up the term PLC. I you have an insurance policy with lets say Admiral, then it doesn't make it a publicly owned or financed company. It is a private company. Maybe you should look up these terms also.

And maybe you should stop trolling.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

So the up to £50 billion that the UK Government put into buying shares in HBOS, Llloyds, and RBS, along with £500 billion of guarantees, wasn't taxpayers money?

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

They are shares. Anyone can buy shares as an investment. Unless you have a huge chunk of them, then you don't get much in the way of voting rights. So they are still a PLC, and not a nationalised business.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

As Hugh pointed out above....maybe you should familiarize yourself with factual reality rather than spouting your prejudices as some sort of moral barometer.

Do you even understand what a plc is? It is a "Public", as opposed to "Private", limited company. You're doing a great job of undermining your own argument Tim.

Here's a thought. Instead of feigning some sort of moral indignity and abhorrence on here why didn't you inform on your dear friend who "..openly admitted that he was milking the system"?

I'm sorry to hear your son is on DLA. Here's hoping some blinkered, prejudiced holier than thou do-gooder - like yourself - doesn't have him in their sights as someone who's "milking the system".

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

OMG, I can't believe you even said that :banghead:
It means that anyone can buy their shares on the stock market. It doesn't mean that it is owned by the public, as in the government. Go and do some reading up.

I have my reasons, that are nothing to do with you.

Don't you dare judge me. You know nothing about me, or my son.

You really do fit your name don't you. You don't read posts properly before you comment. You argue about things you know nothing about. And then you judge people who you know nothing about.

Maybe you should look up the definition of a troll.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Let me be clear about this Tim, you stated earlier that "a bank is a private business". The fact is that 99% of them are not and they operate on a plc shareholding basis.

To use your own terminology "simples".

You see Tim that suggests that you either don't have the nads to stand over your stated convictions or that you have a degree of tolerance for benefit fraud. Which is it?

I'm not "judging" you or your son Tim - I'm merely commenting on what you write. It strikes me that you are so blinded by prejudice that you cannot even comprehend that there are people, like you, who will pre judge your son as milking the "system" despite the fact that he may well be very ill.

Can you not see how self contradictiory your position is?

I don't see what Scandinavian folklore has to do with any of this.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Its so good to see you back and firing on all cylinders Mr A :tu:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

If someone openly admitted something like that to me, then I would take offense by it. If I didn't know them well or that they were neighbours in the same street, I'd would probably make a call. But if they are good close neighbours, eg, live right above or below (in a flat), then moralistically that would be up for debate. If they were friends, I would have to make myself known to them of my position against it.

I personally get it nearly every other day from people that just because I appear to look well, whatever happens or whatever I say really doesn't mean much to those people.

I also do things (not very often) that could be brought into question even more, I might go bowling etc, which on the front/look of it, would or could make me a prime candidate of a benefit fraudster because on paper I basically look like I'm death warmed up.

As for:
Sorry I disagree, I find it quite over the top to be honest.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

If you actually did bother to read the posts, then you would understand. A public limited company is not owned or controlled by the tax payer or government. It is owned by individuals or organisations who own shares. So the government do not have any control over executives bonuses (which is what the conversation started about.

So get your facts right.



Just because I am disgusted by someones actions, then it doesn't mean that I have to drop them in it. I can understand where you are coming from, but unless you know the circumstances, then you can't really comment.

I can say that I was really happy when they did lose the DLA and the car, that myself and many other tax payers were paying for. And I wish it had happened a long time a go. But for circumstances that I can't reveal, I couldn't be the one to drop them in it.


This is where you couldn't be more wrong. I am probably one of the least prejudice people you could possibly know. If you had read my posts, and the ones I was replying to, then you would know that all I want is justice, and for the people who abuse the system to lose their benefits, and the people who deserve it to get all the help they need.

You are commenting on what I write in the warped way that you choose to interpret it. If you had more of an open mind, and didn't just think the worst of people, then you would understand what I said.


Was that supposed to be funny???
You know exactly what I mean.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 ----------

I know exactly what you are saying, and it can be very difficult knowing what to. If it had just been down to me, then I would have made the call.

The person in question had a motorcycle accident many years ago, and had serious knee injuries that prevented him from working. But for many years he has been doing tiling, patios, building etc.. So as you can see, he has at the very least almost completely recovered.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

While we're on the subject of getting facts right let me simplify this even further for you Tim.

I did not say or suggest that a public limited company is is "owned or controlled by the tax payer or government". I merely contested your assertion that "a bank is a private business".

Funny that, because earlier in this thread you agreed with Hugh when he said that to do nothing about benefit fraud was a cop out.

And your way of ensuring that this comes about is to turn a blind eye to fraud because you may be inconvenienced by reporting it?

Tim, with all due respect, as has been evidenced in our exchanges in this thread even you don't understand what you are saying. You trip yourself up and contradict yourself time and again and when you realize you've made a faux pas you try to change the context of the issue at hand.

Given your comments regarding your neighbour it's a bit rich you accusing me of thinking the worst of people.

No, it was a factual response to your suggestion - obviously lost on you.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Reality check - taxpayers money was pumped into them to stop them going bankrupt, and another £500 billion was used as guarantees - that is not "buying shares as an investment".

Could you please point out when in this century, what other major industries the UK Government, using taxpayers money, have spent £50 billion in buying shares in, and guaranteeing another £500 billion of taxpayers money?

Reality check number two - UK Government has an 83% shareholding in RBS and 41% in Llloyds/HBOS; that sounds like a "huge chunk" to me....

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Just read the start of the conversation, rather than cutting in half way through.

Then do some research yourself.

---------- Post added at 12:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------

If you want a conversation, then have one. But all you are doing is trying to cause trouble by twisting things around.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

erm, I was replying to the points you made, which were factually incorrect.

You stated What were the £50 billion of bail-out and £500 billion of guarantees, if not funding*?

And my comments are factually based (unless, of course, I am wrong in that the UK Government did not provide up to £50 billion in taxpayers money to bail out the banks and another £500 billion of taxpayers money in guarantees, and also own 83% of RBS and 41% of Lloyds/HBOS?).

*OED definition of funding - "money provided, especially by an organization or government, for a particular purpose"

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I find it difficult to reconcile someone saying they want benefit abuse to be stopped yet not being willing to do anything about someone who blatantly boasts that they are milking the system.

So I thought I would like to clarify something that I do have professional experience of. If anyone wants to reports benefit abuse they can do so anonymously either by writing in to their local benefits office or to the relevant office dealing with a specific benefit. or they can phone in using the dedicated Fraud Hotline.

An anonymous report is taken seriously but obviously you must be willing to disclose some relevant details of why you consider the claimant is not entitled to the benefit so that the Fraud Team have something to investigate. At no point will you be drawn into the limelight as the whistle blower and NO benefit will be effected until the case is investigated and, if proven necessary, the entitlement to benefit is cancelled. Just saying someone is fiddling will not result in any action being taken as there is neither the man power nor financial resources available to investigate a case where a claimant merely looks too well to be claiming benefit.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

A bail out is not normal funding. It's a rescue package. And it doesn't give the government any say in directors bonuses, which is what this conversation all started about.

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

I know exactly what you are saying. But you don't know the very difficult circumstances.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Have done that on 2 occasions now :tu:

I can also confirm they do not give out your details and they do deal with the thief who is stealing benefits.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Be aware though that from experience I can say that many complaints are investigated and found to have no substance as many claimants are reported without the whistle blower knowing the full extent of claimants circumstances. This happen quite often in the case of disability claimants who can look perfectly able to work and do not all disclose the full extent of their disabilities to all and sundry.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Both of the ones i reported were real and have been dealt with, Both were claiming for benefits that they were not entitled to whilst working and it was a family thing as both were the same family at different address's.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Could you point out where you stated "normal", please? Your post stated And do you honestly believe that that an entity that holds 83% of a company's shareholding doesn't have any say in renumeration?

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

AS a moderator you should set an example, not start arguments.

I have answered your question, so go and argue with someone else.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Yeah God forsake anyone who makes any mistakes/errors etc here, even ones that really doesn't make much of any difference to the main point of this thread. :rolleyes:

I may not agree with a lot of things but there seems to be more and more nit picking / point scoring post just for the sake of it, which doesn't add anything to the original threads.

It's easier not to get involved these days. :(

Edit
Sorry Maggy, I didn't see your post till I posted mine.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I came on here tonight and just posted on another thread seeking advice. Skimming through the forum I came across this discussion. Like with everything there are different viewpoints.

For those that think the 'reforms' are going too fast, too deep, would you please sign this http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968 and share the link with friends.

The lady who submitted it is blind, her hubby has serious disabilities too. These are her words....

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

What is making me laugh is that, that pillock Cameron has come up with another brilliant idea to get people back to work - make them work 30 hours per free for there benefit, not being funny, there won't be a very a long queue.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

I don't suppose you could add a link and / or expand on that?

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Here a link.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politic...5875-23547885/

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Thank you.

Wouldn't it be nice if Arthur managed it once in a while, still him and facts tend to have a very tenuous relationship.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

That's not his idea, it's been around for years. It's just that it has never been put into practice.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

How many hours should they work for it then, I mean I know you're a sensible chap Arthur. I know you're not going to give out hard earned tax payers money for free! I know a guy like you would expect some commitment from those receiving the money???

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Ok the total welfare budget is around 240 billion.
Incapacity benefit makes up 12.5 billion. (I got this from press as not on budget report I looking at, so may not be accurate)
Some comparisons.
Pensions make up 129 billion more than half (no cuts to existing claimants)
Child related benefits 19.7 billion (cuts but are soft)
Housing benefits including LHA according to press 21billion.

If I am not mistaken IB is the smallest of those and yet is the hardest been hit, logically someone would look to reduce the biggest bills first as there is more to gain easier. This is all political, if they hit pensions then they garuanteed to lose next election, hitting sickness benefits is just a minority set of weak people.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap:

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

We sick and disabled also have the convinience of being less able to effectively fight back as well. Not so easy for most of us to get our ugly mugs on tele with large protest marches and the like. Perfect target for cowardly politicians and journalists of the reptile variety.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

not to mention also its the baby boomer generation who tend to get looked after who are all hitting pension age now or soon.

Also there has been some protests in london (albeit small ones), the bbc when invited refused to go saying it wasnt in the publics interest to cover the story.

Re: For those of us unfit to work
 

Some information

IFS Survey of the UK Benefit System, November 2010 - link

In 2009-10, £188 billion was spent on Social Security benefits -broken down in page 6 of the PDF into

Total benefits for families with children £34.1 billion
Total benefits for unemployed people £4.9 billion
Total benefits for people on low incomes £41.6 billion
Total benefits for elderly people £78.4 billion
Total benefits for sick and disabled people £28.6 billion
Total benefits for bereaved people £0.7 billion

In there,
Retirement Pension = £66.9 billion claimed by 12.5 million people
Some form of Disability Benefit / Attendance & Carers Allowance = £26.3 billion claimed by/for 7.9 million people
Child related Benefits = £34.1 billion claimed by 14.3 million people
Housing/Council Tax Benefits = £24.7 billion claimed by 10.6 million people

And obviously, due to circumstances, some people may be eligible/claiming more than one of the above.

---------- Post added at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 ----------

Linky, please?