What do VM do to make this happen?
 

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At Midnight on the dot..... Everything returns to "normal" How is this traffic management actually helping anyone? Is this the cause?

Someone explain it to me...Im perplexed.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Its the magic traffic shaping fairies :D.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

It doesnt look like midnight on the dot to me, more like 2am

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

The packet loss decreased considerably at midnight though.

I'd say a display when the connection isn't being heavily used would be more likely to show whether or not any blame lies with VM. If it wasn't being used fairly heavily then it looks to me like it must be an oversubscribed area.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Packet loss reduced by latency remained an issue for a further 2 hours, this could well be spikes in overuse in your area. Its basically from 4pm to midnight, suggests high usage, if its causing issues with your connection then I would definitely speak to Tech Support and get then to check local UBR load.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Seeing that TBB is an external application sending pings to the OP's router, the packet loss could be on the return/upstream. That might be due to upstream congestion or due to a problem on the OP's circuit (like upstream SNR). We don't have the benefit of the OP's stats and event log to try and join all the evidence together.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

It's a load issue, TS have confirmed this.

http://community.virginmedia.com/vir...d=68300#M68300

Scheduled fix next month.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/.../558469/page/8

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

brilliant. what will it take for VM to sort this out across their whole network ? Its like waiting for a complete network failure!

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Hello, Yep VM are saying that they are dealing with it originally this month now next month.

I was wondering why it ended at Midnight (effectively) with such a huge decrease in loss.
It cant be a coincidence? or its 1 or 2 extremely heavy upstream users decide its bed time at 12am?

Why don't VM cap upstream when there are problems like this. would that help at least id be able to play some games.

as for line stats all are normal within range.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

It could well be a single person switching their torrents off, especially if 100Mb has been released in your area and you're on the same upstream as a 100Mb torrent fiend.

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Sort what out?

Putting it into context there are more capacity problems than usual, my area is one of them, but they are not that big a % of the total areas and all are local, it's not a generic network-wide fault but a ton of smaller ones.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

latency. my post was a bit extreme I apologize

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

It isn't ideal, true, even areas where everything else works as it should latency or jitter can be a little higher than expected.

VM, nationally, aren't a match for most DSL operators on many metrics that don't rely on raw bandwidth.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

what would VM have to do to fix latency and is it too expensive?

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Loads of capacity upgrades and yes, for the prices we're paying right now.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Usage is actually pretty modal like that.

If you look at the Linx traffic charts (https://www.linx.net/pubtools/traffi...tml?stats=week) you can see there's a pretty quick and steep drop off of traffic towards the end of the day.

That includes all business usage as well though. VM (and all consumer ISPs) tend to see more traffic towards later evenings, and if you look at my VM chart during a fault period last month where changes in load are all the more obvious (and on a fatter pipe) you can see the precipitous drop off around 1-2am as well:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...18-08-2011.png

While it only takes 1 or 2 people switching off their torrents, a lot of people also do go to sleep at the same time.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

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Well i seem to have some pretty regular as clockwork users on my Node.

There must be more to this than discussed above. Something in the traffic management

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

I feel they will never own up to it if it is the traffic shaping. :)

This is my area so yours is well and truly being hit :(

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/09/23.png

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

That would most likely affect everyone in your area, along with everyone around you.

According to your graph the problems started yesterday considerably before the traffic management would have become active and stopped a bit after. I can buy the TM kicking in and switching off either early or late, doing a bit of both seems unlikely as it suggests that computers can't count, something they're usually reasonably good at :)

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

i thought weekend managment started ... welll all day but turned off at night ?

it still [Mod Edit]me off how it ends so abruptly and given all discussed about users habits to me it seems like a small number are destroying the upstream.

would me being on 50/5 up give me a better slice of that upstream and no packet loss, or just give me a subpar 50 product?

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Nice graph you have right now, shows the load ramping up nicely from 8am onwards. Weekend management is 12 noon - midnight.

You can actually see the load burst at 2pm where someone starts doing that thing.

50/5 wouldn't benefit you in the slightest.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

i want to kill that user

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Make sure you do it after he turns off his torrents

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

HI all i download most large files after midnight as not to have a effect on others im on 30MB but really vm should provide a service where we should all be able to download at our max anytime of day.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

How much would that cost VM to provide by way of infrastructure capacity? They can't do that at the price we pay for a circuit.

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Do you know how much capacity they do plan roughly for an urban area? its not that dense mostly 60 houses per street terraced 1930s buildings a few high/dense areas flats etc. Or is this classified information :O

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Are you willing to pay the extra for your dedicated bandwidth and If you are, how much extra would you pay for that max download at anytime of the day ???

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This is a piece of string question. In my area, it's less than 500 houses per optical node. That's the low end of the quoted range of 500 - 2000. So the cities will be nearer to 2000 - and they're suffering like in East London and users on the Mortlake CMTS.

To roll out 100 meg and compete with BT's upcoming 80 meg Infinity, VM understand that they have to raise their game and [rovide renewed infrastructure where it is weak and particularly to add channels to highly populated areas (new street furniture with more optical kit).

Igni knows more about the detail than I. VM like to play everything close to their chest - perhaps you could regard this as semi-classified because of commercial sensitivity!

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

In my high takeup area I am still waiting these new channels seph :(

I wish I could count the houses per node here but what I do know is there is lots of house conversions to flats/bedsits, and converted factories to flats. So the node density is likely much higher than it was when cable originally came to town.

I think rather than adding channels VM really need to reduce the densities, if it means new cabinets or deeper fiber then so be it. Also we need QAM64 upstream channels and upstream bonding. Comcast are doing it fine.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Chrys - I painstakingly surveyed Winnersh and mapped each cabinet, each optical node, traced the tell tale signs on the pavement to be sure of which optical node served which group of boxes. I published it somewhere on the forum a year or so agao and I'll put it up in the ACF in order to stimulate a few thoughts.

You're right about the stab in the dark with flats, but bedsits are usually tell tale from the outside and street view handles that.

I'm not certain, but the grapevine (not Igni) suggests that 64QAM upstream is coming taking into account the additional spectrum available.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

To be fair in certian areas a house is probably a house and in some areas bedsits will be rare. My area tho which is a lot of low end of the rental market will be various bedsits and flats as they fill that market due to the lower rental cost. Across the road tho is also a council estate which will be mainly families. So its a mixed area.

So your count is probably accurate and you will know yourself if there is many bedsits and such in your area. I did get a figure for my area density of someone within VM, and its way above 2000 so I wont quote it here as I think it may well be wrong (I have been fed wrong info before).

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Area density can be counted from the electoral roll loaded into Excel. That way, with a map, you can get the homes passed per cabinet per street. That's what I did.

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Be aware that depending on the type of node there can be as many as 4 separate service groups fed off a single node, 1 fibre pair for each of 4 coaxial trunks launched from that one cabinet.

Also to add to the joy more recently overbuilt areas may be using DWDM with digitised return path and segmentation.

TLDR homes per cabinet isn't necessarily useful.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

does this look ok so far?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/09/19.png

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Very good.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Just asking because i wasnt sure if the maximum latency in yellow was bad or not, seemed a bit high but i dont know what average is lol.

Thanks.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

yup not bad. take a look here for the average http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...ults-post.html

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Thanks :)

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Just to help you interpret the TBB graph: I rely on the graph for when my system is quiet or lightly used. When you're using your line, its traffic has priority over the pings coming out of and responding to TBB. So you'll see spikes, which might thus have been caused by your satisfactory activity but which delay the low priority TBB traffic.

If your circuit is quiet but you see high latency, then chances are your network segment is more heavily utilised. Solid blocks of high yellow in those circumstances might adversely affect your experience.

Hope that helps.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

I ignore the yellow part of the graph on cable and pay attention to the blue, it seems to far better reflect the experience in actual use.

Fundamentally if a customer isn't noting any problems in use the TBB meter is at best a curiosity and at worst totally misleading.

Strikes me as rather looking for something to complain about if things seem to be working just fine.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Lots of yellow on VM lines is fairly normal. Here's mine on a "fairly normal/good" day - excepting the time where service went down completely for 2 hours (which is also, funny enough, fairly normal)
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...21-09-2011.png

This in comparison, is a fairly *bad* DSL line.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...19-09-2011.png

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

My Infinity connection.

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Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Soon as I move house I'll be onto Inifinity (and get a cat). Not only because your Infinity looks miles better than my VM on a good day but also because you're paying less and getting five times more upload.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

On gaming, my some reports no difference at peak times. Good on both VM and Infinity.

My Infinity upload is 8 meg versus 4.8 meg VM.

Incidentally, up to last week, the Infinity TBB had the same characteristics but the minimum latency was 30 ms not 20.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Yeah my VM upload is ~1.5 meg on a good day, and unlikely to improve before next March.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

It's worth having both - not just for assured VPN reasons, but also for sheer technical interest. But if my VM was crep, I'd not have kept it.

Engineer is coming tomorrow to see whether or not networks need to be called in for my DS SNR and low power problem. What's the betting he'll put in a SH which will put me in first hand position rather than an observer and commentator.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

yep best to ignore the yellow. Whats more important is the blue as that reflects average. So if yellow is eg. 80ms green is 20ms and blue is 24ms. Then it means the majority of your pings are normal with the occasional spike, thats probably going to translate to a good experience on latency sensitive apps. However if your green is 20ms and your blue is 80ms and yellow 100ms. Then that indicates a lot of jitter and may possibly cause issues on some apps. If you see a lot of red then thats even worse as thats packetloss and will likely impact every internet app.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

It would be better or more useful if they had another colour, purple maybe, that showed 90th percentile.

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

Nah it really wouldn't people obsess over the graph quite enough with the current 3 colours let alone adding a 4th statistic.

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That is terrible. Look at the evening congestion. I dont think i could use that for gaming. ;)

Re: What do VM do to make this happen?
 

The maximum/minimum approach to presentation doesn't tell you how often the minimum is prevalent. The average implies this but there is no SD to provide a confidence level. So the only way to seek confidence is to see what the blue is doing against the yellow. A following trend will indicate issues where they both rise and the blue will rise faster if the green rises too.

When Igni picked up on my comment, he might have ignored the fact that I was drawing a distinction between "silent" latency and latency caused by priority activity on the user's circuit.