Monarchy or Republic?
 

This is not a Royal Wedding thread, but I thought now would be a good time to ask the question because the wedding means people are thinking about the Royals more than usual, and because the wedding is becoming a focal point for both those who support and those who oppose the monarchy.

In particular I was struck by this quote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13214984

... which left me wondering how awareness can be raised further if a sizeable majority of the UK is already of a republican persuasion. But anyhow.

So, please click the poll and let the debate begin. :)

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Tempted between Republic and 'don't care'. I don't care really, but then again the Monarchy is a terrible anachronism... Then again, if some people like it, and it brings tourists in...

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

I'm wondering whether the poll was too simplistic - we could have had a choice between a republic with an executive president like the USA, or a ceremonial/constitutional president like Ireland or Germany.

On the other hand I'm not at all sure that even the republican movement in the UK is campaigning at that level yet. Possibly most Brits haven't even thought about it. However it's widely believed that the republic referendum in Australia a few years back failed not because of the general principle, but because of the specific model of republic it proposed.

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"Sizeable majority"? I'd like to see his figures to prove that.

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A recent poll (3 days ago) And a poll two years ago New definition of "sizable majority" I hadn't come across before....

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... which is the polar opposite of Gareth Smith's claim on the BBC. I, too, would like to see his figures!

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So it looks like he's wrong. No surprise there then. In fact, now that I have had a change to have a look at their website I want to change my vote to from "don't know" to "Monarchy".

Even moreso after reading this complete load of rubbish.

Also, could someone please tell their website designer that you're not supposed to have spaces in web addresses.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

The rest of the world are fascinated by the Queen and such. probably because they think it's like in the story books with Queens, Princes and Princesses.

whilst the rest of us are thinking she's a bit like God. doesn't do anything, but she actually is there.

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Not necessarily wrong - his poll may have asked different questions, which can, strangely enough, lead to different outcomes....:D

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100% monarchy for me .Republic democracy has the same outcome (and problems) that constitutional monarchies have so as far as i am concerned there is little difference

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A fair point. "Lies, damned lies and statistics" ;)

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I'd rather an unelected monarch who puts cash into the coffers of UK plc, rather than a political elected Head of State that just takes cash from us... and not always lawfully.

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We have had no need of the monarchy since the restoration and all they are is a tourist attraction that has to much of our money and what should be public property that should be in the public domain.

Bring in the guillotine and the tumbrils.:D

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Viva la Revolucion

and the toe-rags who had all that land given to them after the Norman invasion can jolly well hand it back.

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And before!

Bloody Romans - what have they ever done for us?

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

I agree.
the time has come for change.
let's get the wedding out the way and issue them all with notice to quit.

reason being (you don't do nutthin!) :D

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Well if Stan Collymore supports them then I'm sold.....:dozey:

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Aye let's give everything back to the Welsh!

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To me, the only persuasive argument against the monarchy is that it is the pinnacle of a class system that has no place in our modern society. However, that class system is slowly eroding beneath them anyway and, even if Charles shows no signs of being a modernizing monarch, it is clear that William will be.

Arguments in favour of republic do not persuade me. An executive president like Obama in the USA or Sarkozy in France is a political, and therefore a divisive, figure. The Head of State should be a unifying symbol of the nation, not a divisive political one. And a non-executive figure, like McAleese in Ireland or Christian Wulff in Germany (who I had to look up ... anyone ever heard of him? I hadn't) ... well, what's the point? If you're going to have a ceremonial figure, why not have someone whose family history is woven into the very fabric of the nation? The alternative, it seems to me, is either a washed-up ex-politician, or, worse, a celebrity. Katie Price for president, anyone? :erm:

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I feel a sketch coming on :)

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Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Same old simplistic rants coming out i see "they do nothing" and "they cost us money" seriously you people need to do some research before posting helps you to avoid looking completely ignorant. Monarchy does a hell of a lot for this country and most of it never gets reported or acknowledged as they don't make a fuss about it and certain media companys have their own agenda which is not served highlighting the work the royal family do for the benefit of this country.

They cost the country very little and actually revenues from crown estates outweigh any monies paid by the civil list by a considerable amount. Add in the dipomatic weight they have with near universal respect and the jobs and investment they bring to the UK and i think we would be a much poorer country in every sense if we got rid of them and became yet another republic.

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surely though the class system exists without a monarchy sure it's not a heriditary one like ours but i would say that Obama(the pinnacle of the American class system) and all the senators are upper class along with the heads of corporations ,having a class system is not dependant on having lords ,earls kings and queens imo ,so i would say even that isn't a good argument against the Monarchy imo

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 ----------


There you go Rizzy i posted this the other day for the benefit of other "revolutionaries";) i think it may be worth having it here as well

http://www.royal.gov.uk/TheRoyalHous...penditure.aspx

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

I voted moncharch because I find it hard to imagine this country where the monarch makes a bigger mess of it that this so-called elected government has. Come on Queen, dissolve parlimanent, get us out of the EU and kick out all the foreigners. :D

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Erm yes the house of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha would be well placed to do that of wouldn't they.

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I kind of like the historical element and the excuse for national pomp and circumstance that gives Britain some sort of national identity . It's a rather historical and traditional image we convey with these events but that gives a strong identity that attracts tourism.

We still have that image of a historic and traditional yet eccentric country IMO. I kind of like that.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

When there are Royal events, big or small(eg wedding or hospital visit), it makes it a special and memorable day for a number of ordinary people. Why deny them that harmless and peaceful enjoyment?

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Are they still considered foreigners?
I do tire of hearing and reading the endless sagas of politically correct apologetics who say there is no such thing as British because we've been invaded so many times, the typical invasion sequence cited begins with the Romans, then continues with the Angles, Saxons, Vikings, and finally ending with the Normans. As a result they say, whats the point since we're a mixture of everything, since the defining line between British and foreign is so muddied as to be indistinguishable, so lets just let them all in they say.

These people often seem to forget that when the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans invaded, they raped and pillaged. They didn't respect their hosts until they were either whipped into submission or in danger of losing their kingdoms. This is why everything that we have now should be protected from the plights of those foreigners who care only for themselves rather than what is ours, and the day we lose our national indentity is the same day we've as good as handed it all over on a silver platter.
The Royal Wedding ™ will serve to reinforce our national identity, as does the Monarchy in general - so I think it's another good thing for this nation.
Rule Brittania !

---------- Post added at 14:30 ---------- Previous post was at 14:25 ----------

Looking at the voting results, I had no idea the CF was such a hot-bed of Royalists. :)

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Yes I agree Heero_yuy, its just a pipe-dream really. The Queen dissolving parliament almost sounds like something from a Carry-on film. And I'm sure that in real life, it'd be equally as entertaining too !

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Quite, the foundations that the class and landowning system in this country is based on. Them pesky French speaking foreigners!

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It always seems to be those in a certain area of the country that come out with the "they do nothing for us but cost us money rant ". I have my own feelings on who is using more of the country's money and does nothing in return and its nothing like in bread :)

---------- Post added at 15:30 ---------- Previous post was at 15:26 ----------

Dont tell the unions or the students :LOL:

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

More a case of being pragmatic I suspect.The fuss and cost of changing a system that isn't actually broken outweighs the benefits.

Plus if one were to ask the likes of the Punks from the 70s if they want to be rid of the Queen now, when they have become establishment themselves and I suspect the answer would be a resounding no.;)

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Realistically, what would be the difference?

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Exactly my point earlier in the thread i can see no advantage to changing to a republic .
Republics like America have never had a King or Queen ,France chopped the head of theirs as did we 300 yrs ago but our fledgling government couldn't decide how to run the country(sounds familiar) so they bought ours back

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From what read on the page I linked to, not much. They just want someone elcted rather than not.

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In other words they want the equivalent of a coronation every 5 years.;)

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which we have know ,i know that technically the queen is head of government but in reality it is the prime minister with the power and then only as far as his ministers allow it .Personally i think it is easier to get rid of our prime minister than it would be for the Americans to get rid of Obama even though they are both elected leaders

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

The Queen isn't the Head of Government. She is the Head of State. David Cameron is Prime Minister of her Government and he is the head of it, even if technically it belongs to her. He runs it in her name. :spin:

There are now next to no powers that the Monarch exercises without reference to the Government. Almost all of the things the Queen decides, she does so after advice from her ministers. And most of the Royal prerogatives are exercised by the Government with little consultation (if any) with the Palace.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Many years ago, in my student days, I would have voted "Republic". Now? I've voted "Monarchy".

I agree with Chris' comments regarding it being better than the alternatives (an executive President or a ceremonial figurehead President), and tbh I quite like the Queen (not particularly keen on the rest, though).

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Its just a shame they are to closely related to Germans . At least Phillip diluted it a bit with his Greek blood and Diana a bit more

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Although George I was German, he was the great-grandson of James VI of Scotland and I of England.

The Queen's ancestry can be traced back directly all the way to William the Conqueror.

She is also directly descended from various English and Scottish royal houses and also pre-Conquest Anglo-Saxon royals, plus of course is related to many European royal houses via Victoria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_...o_Elizabeth_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestry_of_Elizabeth_II


I don't consider her to be "German".

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Fair do's.

Not all that fussed then.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

William the Conquerer was French thats even worse lol lol

Of course they are only Windsors because they didnit want to sound foreign lol

I voted do not care and I dont tbh :)

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Actually William was Norman and they were originally Vikings.The whole world can be as snooty as it likes about it's origins but we are all pretty much mongrels and can trace our ancestry all the way back to Africa.;)

I care if only for the fact I can do without the damned upheaval that would result if we changed the status quo.Change for change sakes is pointless.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

William of Normandy was of Viking descent, but as Duke of Normandy he would have described himself as 'Norman'. Despite speaking a version of French he would probably have been quite insulted at being called a Frenchman. Normandy was not part of France in the 11th century.

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

Beaten to it by Maggy ...

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Monarchy every time, I'm proud of our heritage.

Does that mean our monarchy can't be reformed? Of course not.

It needs to be thinned out. The civil list needs to be cut to just a handful of immediate royals. Direct heirs and spouses only for example.

I think William will do much to modernise them. I think Charles should abdicate his right and go off and disappear up his own backside.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

been busy but I happliy stand corrected. I did actually know the history of Normandy buts its normally acceptable to dislike the French lol

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

If his mother lives very much longer, Charles might just be a doddery old geezer himself by the time he accedes to the throne ... we may just end up with William as Prince Regent if his dad can't cope.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Charles should never be King cuz he married a divorcee same as his great uncle . I certainly do not want a Queen Consort Camilla

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Now to be fair to the aristocracy back in the 11th Century it wasn't all bad, in fact they would have done CAMRA proud. An English translation (oh the irony) extract from the domesday summary for Chester:

"A man or woman caught giving false measure in the city paid a fine of 4s. Similarly, the brewer of bad beer was either put in the ducking stool or gave 4s to the reeves"

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

I think with Wallis Simpson, the fact she was a divorcee and a Yank is what did for her. ;)

With some of the shenanigans his distant ancestors got up to, Charles is actually a fairly level-headed, near-normal person. There is next to zero chance of him not being king. I tend to agree about Camilla; I would prefer her not to be Queen, but the fact is, a king's wife is a queen. Good PR means she's unlikely ever to be called that officially, but queen she will be.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

I'm not either against, or for.

At the end of the day, I was born here by chance. And while I'm proud to have been born here, it's not up to me to decide whether we should or shouldn't have a monarchy. It's the way it's always been. I just live here.

I'm happy for them both, but as I don't personally know them, I won't be celebrating, just carrying on with my life, as will they.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

That's a pretty fatalistic way of looking at things.

Everybody on the planet are where they are by chance, our ancestors where here by chance and yet they shaped their traditions and way of life, why wouldn't you?

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That might bee difficalt to-do if you want William to bee king, typically abdication means refusing your right to the throne. Wills right to the throne comes directly from Charles's right. So without constitutional changes (to ALL Commonwealth country's not just UK) Charles abdicating would lead to king Andrew

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Yikes, but at least all major golf championships will be national holidays

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Point of order..

If charles abdicates then William can still be king and most likely would .Charles can abdicate the throne in favour of his oldest son (william).The only other occasion of voluntary abdication in the entire royal history was of Edward VIII who had to pass the throne to his brother simply because he had no heirs

so no there wont be any golfing holidays :D

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

dot care ether way but dot want a Presadient Camron simple

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Given no-one raised the possibility it's not an issue.

The monarchy can and should stay.

That said I would also quite like to see a directly elected head of government rather than a Prime Minister. Obviously it couldn't be a president.

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Of course it's shaped my way of life. It couldn't not. But that doesn't mean that I should celebrate the wedding of people I don't personally know. Whoever they are.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

With the usual "I hate the monarchy" brigade I thought the poll results would be very different and not the current 60%/24%/16% split in favor of the Monarchy..

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Yes a surprising result ,i thought it would have been a bit closer .I wonder if the result would have been different if there had been no wedding ?

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Not for me i would have still said Monarchy.

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I think the result pretty much mirrors what the nation as a whole feels about the issue.

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Quite right, what always happens in debates such as this is that the minority view always gets far more exposure than they are warranted. Whereas the silent majority are just that- silent.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

It's not really a simple question and the results are somewhat misleading.

I'm a republican, but i wouldn't just get rid of the British monarchy now. They're synonymous with British culture and history and in turn valuable to many others, even if they're not to me.

Change a number of things about the British monarchy? Almost certainly. Get rid of them completely? No. If i was building a nation from scratch, would it be a monarchism? No.

My decision isn't based on my personal feelings or politics, it's what i think is best for the country as a whole.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Maybe it's time for that silence to be unsilenced :D



LONG LIVE THE QUEEN

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

:clap: May i second that

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She doesn't rule. She reigns. There's a great big constitutional difference. ;)

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Maybe he's going to live until he is 100 as well..;)

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As I said earlier absolutely fine and delighted with the monarchy, however I do want to see some constitutional reform. Replace the house of lords with a house elected entirely by PR, increase the powers of the PM and make him directly elected to that job by the people rather than his own party, and I'm ecstatic.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

More money spent on more elections?Surely that's a waste of public resources?;)

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Sounds good to me!:)

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Surly that would make him president then not prime (first) minister. Rather then going all the way to having directly elected president/prime minister i personally would like to see the torys honor their election pledge of forcing a general election if/when the governing party changes its leader. This would go a long way to preventing the problem of having a PM with no public mandate (ala brown) without the expense of having a presidential election on top of the general commons election.

Re: Monarchy or Republic?
 

Being directly elected doesn't make someone a president. Boris Johnson is directly elected, that just makes him the directly elected holder of the office he was elected to ... in this case Mayor of London.

A president has the top job - head of state and in some cases also head of government. Our monarch has the job of head of state and our prime minister is head of government. He/she would still be the prime minister of the government if he were directly elected by us rather than by current means.

However, there are certain complexities in directly electing the PM. The convention is that the Queen appoints as her PM, the one who is most likely to command a majority in Parliament. Turning that on its head would require a great deal of careful planning and law-making, and all we would end up with is a system where the Prime Minister is more likely than at present not to have a commons majority, and therefore less able to pass legislation and more likely to have the annual pantomime of struggling to get a budget approved.

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Accountability and transparency are priceless :)