BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I know the BNP are not one of the main stream parties but they are a legitimate party and if this accusation is proved then the Royal Mail should be bought to book .


"conscience clause" what the hell is that all about ?.Apparently any posty can refuse to deliver mail he/she finds offensive and have done so in the past

sky link

BNP link

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Correct.

The BNP are a bunch of neanderthal racist scumy types but are unfortunately a legitimate party and should be allowed to do as other legitimate parties are allowed to do. If the Royal mail have done this then i think they will be paying out a lot of compensation and will have to explain why there staff have took it on themselves to do this.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Thier job and what they are paid for is the delivery of mail not to decide what is or isn't acceptable. If this is true there should be some very serious consequences for royal mail at the end of the day whats to stop an ardent labour,conservative or liberal postie deciding not to deliver the litreture of those partys they don't support.

Absolutely stupid that royal mail allows people to decide what part of their job they do and don't like and if any postie objects to anything that bad maybe being a postal worker is not the best job for them.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Quite agree ,how many of us have the privelidge to decide what part of a job we do based on personal preference ?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

:clap:

To be honest i don't like the Royal Mail. Of all the parcels i have delivered its nearly always those delivered by the Royal Mail that have been damaged, opened or just plain gone missing. There favorite trick is to just post a card through the door saying i was not in when i WAS. I have even opened the door as the postie put the card through much to his surprise and he then admitted he did not have the parcel with him. Very POOR level of service.

At the end of the day what gives a postman the right to decide what is and is not to be delivered. I feel they should SACK who ever has done this if proved to be true, However you can bet the union will be up in arms about it and will claim victimisation of one of its members :rolleyes:

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

This happens to me quite a lot too, in fact the saturday before last I was awaiting the doorbell to ring for a parcel but never did. Sly buggers dropped the red note through the outer slide door. The problem was that I didn't find it until nearly 3pm by which time the collection office was long closed, wasted my morning and early afternoon awaiting that parcel. I was furious and gave the guy behind the window an earful on Monday.

On an episode of a Scottish comedy show called "Chewin' the Fat", the incident you described happens, where the postie gets "caught" putting the red slip through the door but doesn't have the parcel. Hilarity ensues !

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

He tried to say the parcels was to heavy so he decided to leave it at the sorting office, When i said it was a new fuel card and pointed out it was a registered letter he had NO answer other than "Take it up with the complaints line"

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Personally, I would rather post dog turds though someone's door than the racist bile of the BNP. I can understand a postie not wanting to do it. Having said that, if there are official channels that allow them to object on grounds of conscience, there's no excuse for not using them.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I agree.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

And therefor it begs the question Why did they not take that route and what stops the postman from deciding he will not deliver mail from a party he dislikes. All it would take is a postman who dislikes Labour or the Tories to say i don't like there leaflets so i have decided i will not be delivering them. I too think the BNP are a bunch of low life racists but they DO have the right to distribute leaflets as part of there election campaign.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

don't the postmen get paid extra for delivering this type of mail ? this being the case i suspect it will be postmen dumping the leaflets and still claiming the extra money ,which opens a whole new can of worms regarding normal mail and lost letters

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Sirius, with all due respect, it would help if you took the time to research the conscience clause involved rather than getting over emotive and reactionary over the head of the poor service you've obviously received.

This is not simply unique to the BNP or political parties.

Devout Christian postpersons could, by way of example, refuse to deliver pro abortion leaflets.

Are you saying that people should be forced to distribute information to the masses on matters that they are idealogically or religiously opposed to?

Come off it.

EDIT.

Marty, where did you read that they get paid more for this type of delivery?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I was told by a postman friend i used to drink with a few years back ,i am researching that to see if it is still the case

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Let's not forget that for now it is just a claim, and it's being investigated. Whether there is any truth to the claim remains to be seen.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

You're "researching" whether you are still drinking with a postman friend you used to drink with? Outstanding!

Pub chat - The worst type of dialogue to substantiate. It's also unhelpful to level accusations in such circumstances as I'm sure you'll agree.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I don't disagree with them having that clause. However my point is if this is true then WHY was it not invoked instead of just dumping the mail in a garden IF it turns out to be true.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

If it is true that they have dumped the leaflets then they have invoked / exercised their right to do so.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I'd be surprised if the conscience clause allows them to dump the items rather than refuse to deliver them.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Well, well, well, you learn something new every day as Mrs Angry snr often told me.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I would have thought it better he just refuse to take the mail out instead of dumping the mail in someones garden after he left.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I too would be surprised however they haven't been "dumped" as according to Herr Griffin they were returned to a BNP candidate's address.

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:57 ----------

Sorry, has it stated somewhere that the person alleged to have left the leaflets at the candidates address was a male?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Seems a little contradictory to me. If it's true that they dumped them they'd have exercised their right. However, they haven't dumped them. Ergo?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Ok He or She

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

funny aren't you :rolleyes:

anyhoo ,they get 1.67p per item of unaddressed mail (leaflets)and they aren't allowed to refuse to deliver them

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/roy-mayall/diary

that article was from 2009

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

"Dumping" was Sirius's choice of phase.

Either way, whether "dumped" or placed gently in the candidates back garden a Royal Mail member (or members) of staff have exercised their agreed right not to deliver these leaflets.

It is their right to do so in circumstances where they consider them to be offensive or potentially offensive to their customers.

---------- Post added at 17:18 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

Humour bypass?

Yes, I acknowledged this in my earlier post of 16.55 - sorry to have you chase your tail.

They are allowed to refuse to deliver material under the conscience clause - which was why it was introduced.

By way of background / explanation.

"We have a national agreement with Royal Mail with a conscience clause which allows individuals to exercise their right to not deliver material which they find offensive or believe their customers may find offensive.

"It is not specific to any political party. We are protecting the rights of our members to be safe at work. Royal Mail has a responsibility to ensure the safety of their employees".

"We have had instances of delivery workers being threatened, chased and spat at for delivering some election leaflets. We will support individuals who feel strongly about delivering these items. Postal workers are well within their rights to refuse to deliver offensive material."


Bob Gibson, CWU national official.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

No it's not at all .They are allowed to refuse to deliver mail they deem offensive that in no way means they can take it away from the sorting office and dump or even place carefully in someones yard .

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

You can't escape the validity of the syllogism though. ;)

I suppose it depends on the details of the clause if the manner of returning the items is acceptable, and conforms to the Royal Mail's duties. While it may be an individual's right to refuse to deliver the items, it seems unlikely that that person can decide to return them. It also seems plausible to me that when items are returned, RM would have to inform the client in writing.

It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) exactly happened.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I dont support the BNP but I do think like any party they have fair rights to legitimate legal means of getting their message across.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Did I say, anywhere, that they were "allowed" or "right" to do so? I don't believe I did - we are discussing their right not to deliver, not what they elect to do with that material which they refuse to deliver.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Surely, you did in post #17? :confused:

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

There needs to be more than one supposition to be drawn on for it to qualify as a true syllogism - so in this context I believe I can. ;)

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:25 ----------

No, read it again - afford due consideration to the context of the statement to which I was replying.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

[QUOTE=Mr Angry;35224621

Humour bypass?

Actually it took 3 reads to realise what i had wrote :D

QUOTE]


Yes ,i suspect that Roy Mayall is saying that they can't refuse to deliver junk mail is from the pespective of a persecuted postman/woman ,i also believe that there is a voluntary aspect to this type of mail delivery hence the comment on not being able to claim overtime if they take longer doing their normal round because they also have a bag of junk mail to deliver ,for which they are being paid extra

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Never mind that, it took me five attempts to type my reply!!:D

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

You do seem to be suggesting that they have invoked their right to refuse to deliver the leaflets by dumping them ,which obviously they have not .What they have done is looked at the leaflets in the sorting office decided they either want to "pretend"(dump) that they have delivered them and claim the 1.67p per item ,or they have looked at the leaflets and decided to have their own little protest against the BNP by dumping them in the BNP candidates back garden .If they were going to invoke their right to not deliver offensive material then the leaflets would have remained in the sorting office untill another postie took them out .They cannot decide that the leaflets are offensive after they have agreed to take them out with full knowledge of what they are

---------- Post added at 17:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:39 ----------

lol :d

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I know it was back in the 1970s when I was a postman that we did not get paid extra for delivering that type of mail, it had to be inserted with your normal delivery over a week.

At that time nearly every household had the football coupons belivered by mail, and some houses had both Littlewoods and Vernons, and each house had it's own address on the envelope. What we used to do was deliver the coupons the house if it had mail for that day, and similar for the next few days in the hope that you would clear the backlog, if however you still had some left you were allowed to deliver the remaining by working overtime, but you were only allowed 3 hours to do it in.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Being an ex postie that really is shocking if the postie does indeed do that. My pet HATE though was people complaining that i never rang their doorbell or knocked their door when i did SEVERAL times only for them to either not hear it or be pottering about in their back garden. I then would need to carry the item about with me for the rest of the delivery so why any postie would want to put the "red card" through without ringing the doorbell is beyond me. I never knew of ANY posties that actually done this though.

If however the postie was putting the card through without actually bringing the item then that is inexcusable. While not defending that type of action unless you have worked for Royal Mail you cannot understand just how much pressure these guys are under to complete their deliverys. Some get 4 hours to make a delivery that can take at the minimum of 5 hours and work the extra hour for nothing just to make sure that they complete and dont suffer the bullying and harrasment that so often occurs in the job.

When i was last there (2009) we did get paid up to 3p for election material and could refuse to deliver if we didnt want to however someone else would then need to deliver the items.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I agree as well.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Its true or at least was true, we have a new agreement with regards to unaddressed mail which may mean RM managers may try to slip the election material in with our regular unaddressed mail.
We used to get paid 1.6p per regular unaddressed item and 2.3p for larger unadressed mail with a maximum of 3 pieces per household and an average of 550 - 600 calls per route.
Last year during the last big dispute we agreed to instead be paid £20 per week and allow up to 5 pieces per household. According to RM management this would balance out as some weeks we would get no households and still be paid the £20 which would offset the pay lost on the weeks when we would have 5. This didn't play out how they said and last year I was down about £60 compared to the older pay system and I only kept check for about 6 months.
We used to get paid about 4.5p per election item which could add up quickly.
On one week last year I earned an extra £100, the route had 800+ calls and three different sets of election material. Under the new system in the same situation I would end up with £20 because it will be counted as regular household unaddressed mail. Though there is likely to be another dispute over this as it wasn't specified in the agreement yet rumours suggest that RM plan to enforce it.

I can see a lot of Posties refusing to deliver them if thats the case and invoking the clause. The clause only applies to households or unaddressed mail AFAIK. But it would have to be declared in the office and someone else would be assigned to deliver them. This is deffinatley gross misconduct if any payment was accepted for the dumped items.

As per my post above we can refuse to deliver it and could even when this article was written though we needed a good reason. The pay in that article was accurate but only for standard households, not election material.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Again Marty, I was not saying they were right to have "dumped" the leaflets (if indeed they were "dumped").

I was merely stating that by "dumping" the leaflets they had (and were obviously) exercising their right not to deliver them and were sending a very clear message (whether rightly or wrongly in its delivery (pun alert)) to that effect.

Potential syllogism?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I think "exercising their right" is a bit too generous on your behalf ,however i would agree that they/him/her are making a protest in the way they chose to not deliver them

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

But as ZrByte acknowledges in his post above it is a right, a negotiated right. How they chose to exercise that right, particularly if they performed actions which are unwarranted, is the issue at hand.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

As a ex-postie I have to say that if the pamphlets were dumped the posties will get sacked as if they leave the office they must be delivered. This is still the case as well.
If there is any objection it needs to made in the letter delivery office (LDO) before been taken out.

The posties still to get paid extra for the leaflets that they deliver (when i was doing it it was about 2-3p per one delivered, So they do mount up to boosting the wage.

Also with all the changes that have now gone on in the RM since i left have driven a lot of posties that i know to get fed up?

I forgot that the election material stuff you did not get paid for.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Agreed .
My personal take on this should it be proven of course ,is that it was a protest against the BNP as the postie would have known what the leaflets where .
One question ,the offence by a postman of withholding mail ,does that apply in this case as it is unaddressed mail or junk mail ? if it does then that is quite a serious offence ,i believe there are cases where postmen have been jailed

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

At the end of the day, if they are being paid to deliver it they should do just that. They do not have to read it, just stick it through the door.

When i was a paper boy years ago, I had no choice of what leaflets I had to shove through hundereds of letterboxes, I was glad of the extra couple of quid i would get for doing so.

You could argue that no one likes getting bills, so therefore not deliver them also, or in my case, I don't like pizza all that much, so you can forget me delivering any Dominos menus.

No?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

No.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Why?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Well, because time has (mercilessly) marched on since you and I were paperboys and you can't just, at a whim, go around dropping anything through peoples letterboxes with no thought or consideration for what they may or may not wish to receive / read - especially if it isn't addressed correctly to the intended receipient.

That's why Royal Mail have junk mail measures in place and why theres also a mailing preference service where people can opt not to receive unwanted or unsolicited mail.

Bills (at least those which are legitimate) are a different matter because the receipient will have entered into a contract with the service provider and part of that contract is that they provide the customer with bills. That said, ever more service and utility peoviders are switching to / advocating paperless billing.

Dominos pizzas are different again in that it's bad enough that their pizzas are rubbish without them foisting more junk on us. ;)

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Thanks Mr A, i appreciate your point of view and taking the time to explain it.

However, regarding the MPS etc, I have registered for that and still get loads of junk mail along with, unfortunately, Dominos menus :p:

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Is it just the leaflets that you still get as the MPS do not stop these. They only seem to stop the Mailsort letters the ones with the M on the front).

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Still get all junk mail to be honest...

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

There is a big difference between thinking they are mad and finding them completely objectionable and abhorrent.
I also think that just leaving the delivery office shouldn't be enough to force the postie to deliver them as its very easy to miss the content of these things in the office but I think dumping them is completely unacceptable and the items in question should be returned by the next working shift at the latest. They should then be declared to the manager and payment removed from the colleague in questions pay for the coming week.

MPS only deals with the stuff RM process so only M class mail and some 1st and 2nd stuff. Though if the first and second class mail is not openly declared as junk then we cant stop it and there's no legal obligation by any company to declare it. Everything else will have different sorting codes on them, have a look at the top right corner of your mail and see just how many are sorted by RM, I think most people will be surprised. Any of these others are not covered by the MPS and RM could get into trouble if they tried to enforce it on them. Interestingly none of the other companies offer an equivalent to MPS that I know of.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

[QUOTE=ZrByte;35225026]There is a big difference between thinking they are mad and finding them completely objectionable and abhorrent.
I also think that just leaving the delivery office shouldn't be enough to force the postie to deliver them as its very easy to miss the content of these things in the office but I think dumping them is completely unacceptable and the items in question should be returned by the next working shift at the latest. They should then be declared to the manager and payment removed from the colleague in questions pay for the coming week.

QUOTE]

Totally agree ,invoking the offensive materials clause by dumping them does not wash with me ,that is a protest as far as i am concerend and possibly fraud if the postie or posties involved were paid for delivering them

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

It shouldn't be left to the Postman to decide what should and shouldn't be posted to my address?

In other words, just do your job, and let me decide whether it's offensive or not.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

We aren't. The items will still be delivered its just the postman who delivers them that changes. And as said above this does not apply to addressed mail. Though addressed mail can be refused based on the customer at the delivery address rather than the nature of the mail being delivered if the customer is threatening or abusive directly to the postman or indirectly. Though even in those cases you would still receive your mail both addressed and unaddressed its just that you would likely have to collect it yourself from the delivery office unless an agreement could be made to get a different postie to deliver the items and this can only be done in certain situations.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I think i am right to say that the RM is obliged by law to deliver these leaflets as they are election material ,which reinforces my opinion that it is an attempt to prevent the material from ever being delivered by dumping it or losing it

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

With normal households they can refuse but you are right that election material has to be delivered fairly, All of none. And its far too lucrative to refuse all of them.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

If "dumping it" at a BNP candidates home address did actually happen then it is hardly a good way to maliciously prevent it being delivered - were that the intent.

Additionally the Royal Mail loses many, many thousands of addressed postal items a day.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

actually upon reflection that is true ,if the bag was found by the candidate then they should have organised the local support (if any) to deliver them ,instead they have started a fund raising drive to replace the leaflets :confused: a cynicle attempt to use it as a excuse to raise more money if you ask me

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

It's a strange situation. There are alternative carriers available and RM have in place contingencies to arrange delivery in the event that staff object to being asked / tasked to do so.

The BNP have been flagging this up since 2004 which makes you wonder if they are, in fact, using the Representation of People Act merely as a means to heighten their profile in the run up to an election.

Cynical? Me?

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Anything concerning the BNP should be treated with the utmost suspicion and cynicism :)

I for one will be following this to see the outcome as either way it will be very interesting

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

I know they did get the payment when my father was a postman in the 1980s, I thought it was something the union negotiated in the 1970s because the postman's pay was poor in those days.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Whatever people think of them, they are STILL are a political party, and therefore have the same rights as all the others.

Put it this way, when crap comes through your letterbox, where does it normally go - recycling bin.

Re: BNP Accuses Royal Mail Of Dumping Leaflets
 

Yes, Arthur, but what? if they are taking are. up YOUR side of the pavement?

Etc, etc ad nauseum.