Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

In no particular order.

Sluggish operation after midnight
Bugs with padding in certain cases
Capacity indicator unable to cope well with HD
Chase TV doesn't work well on HD channels
Lack of a dynamic EPG


So, are we all stuck with these forever, or is it a case of having to upgrade to Tivo? I can't remember the last software upgrade, it must be over a year ago now. These bugs are starting to really affect performance - even since the HD portfolio was substantially increased, the hardware has been found it hard to cope with everyday events. The padding is also very annoying, for example Top Gear yesterday on BBC HD missed off the last two minutes, even though I have my padding set for 10 minutes.

The fixing of these bugs shouldn't be a selling point for upgrading to Tivo.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I think you have answered your own question, Virgin see TiVo as the software solution going forward, so the answer is NO!

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Considering there strong rumours that the entire customer base will be move over to some form of TiVo box in the future I think the answer is a No

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

As I see it, the real merger of telewest and ntl will happen when everyone is on tivo and as far as broadband goes, on docsis3.

Up until now, vm have been using stop gap measures from legacy cablecos to keep things going, ie using epg software that is more than ten years old and designed to do a lot less than it does now.

So in answer to the OP's question, apart from dealing with faults, I don't see vm spending time and money updating the liberate software.

Sky will also have to make a decision soon about what to do with their tv platform. Their epg software is at the limits it can cope, so sky need to take a decision about whether they should do what vm is going to do and start from scratch or muddle on.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I shudder to think at the costs of that. As we speak, the Tivo isn't that much ahead of what we already have. What are the major selling points of Virgin TV - HD, PVR functionality and On Demand content. We already have that. What extras are we getting with Tivo - extra PVR space, and some supplemental features (recommendation stuff, and some IPTV features). I'm sorry, I don't think that'd enough of to get the masses moving, unlike Sky with the HD box. No HD box, no HD. If Virgin can't make their subscriber base pay for a new box, and the majority of V+ boxes out there can't be upgraded or aren't powerful enough to run the Tivo software, that's going to cost them a hell of a lot of money, even spread over 5 years. It's just a shame the majority of the customer base look like they're going to be using abandonware, and in effect have been since the last software update.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

It's not just the front end that Virgin are considering though, it's the entire platform

Liberate is fine to run linear channels and some VoD stuff, however long term it's not powerful enough to compete with what the other platforms may do in the future.

So it's either change now when you have a product such as TiVo to drive it, or change later when your competitors may have something that will stop people switching

Even Sky have basically done something similar - they only supply Sky+HD boxes now and Anytime+ is limited to those boxes. They just have less backend platform to worry about so have been able to do it quicker

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Interesting insight Ben, I suppose in the near future new V+ customers will only be able to get the new TiVo enabled boxes?

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

yip and if cindy rose is interview is right all v+ will be migrated ot new tivo box wihtin a few years and the old v box migrates probally to v hd box

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I love Cindy Rose, ever since she has come on board the TV part of the business seems to go from strength to strength!

Well done Cindy;)

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Its not an excuse to leave the old platform hung out to dry though.

The items listed in the OP have been issues for years (bar the dynamic EPG - that was never an advertised feature and just an annoyance) - if the Liberate platform wasn't powerful enough to make them work properly for all customers in all circumstances, then they shouldn't be advertised as features or they should make a decent effort to fix them on the current platform.

If TiVo was free or a nominal cost for existing customers, then it would be more acceptable. To ask customers to pay close to £200 to have fixed these issues they have put up with for years isn't really on.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

It is not just redundant software, it is hardware as well all new or replacement boxes should be HD capable and not to mention being able to run latest software solutions!

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Cable tv hasn't been compulsory for the last few years. If it hasn't been value for money then people have been free to move. Nor will it be compulsory to pay £189 for the tivo box. Nice as it would be for them to just hand us these 1Gb tivo boxes for nothing it is totally unrealistic to expect them to.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

We like Cindy too :cleader: :)

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I think DF we will have to start a fan support club for our Cindy and her corporate photo does not look to bad either:D

Go Cindy keep the good work up in 2011:)

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

ha ha, yeah :)

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

No but it has been compulsory for the 12 month minimum term I entered into. Which expires early in the new year when I will make my choice.

I didn't say they should be giving them for free, I said they should make some effort to fix the very rough edges of the V+ service they are supposed to be offering to paying customers.

And for the record, the TiVo box is £199 and has a 1TB hard drive.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

VM are looking to move all customers over to a TiVo product, so I'm not sure what the point of wasting money on fixing "niggles" in the Liberate system is?

Obviously any major problems will always be worked on and fixed. The V+HD is still classed as current, so will have code downloads when available.

Surely better to concentrate on getting everyone moved over to the new TiVo platform? Be it the V-HD or the new TiVo boxes.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Flavour of the month spokeswoman Cindy has said the move will happen over years - is it reasonable for paying customers to continue with these "niggles" if they don't want or cannot afford TiVo whilst it is "premium priced"? Do they not deserve a fully working service that it is as reliable as it can be?

Depends what you class as a major issue or a niggle?

Sluggish operation after midnight - in my eyes thats major
Capacity indicator unable to cope well with HD - in my eyes thats major (and a pretty simple fix)
Chase TV doesn't work well on HD channels - very frustrating, and could be fixed with a box swap if it's the underpowered SA box's fault (that is refused or chargeable because the SA box is "still working")
Bugs with padding in certain cases - in my eyes thats major, especially when your constantly missing the last few minutes of programmes

For who? The VM corporate balance sheet, or the paying customer?

Short term, there won't be any concentration on moving everyone over. The concentration will be on flogging to the masses to make the money. When the perceived maximum "early adopters" have paid their money, that's when your concentration on moving everyone over will happen.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Let's just be clear here... the V+HD for as long as it's in customers homes, will be fully supported.

All current bugs are being worked on, but some minor issues may not be cost effective to carry on researching. IMO

Plus it's better for the customer to be on the TiVo platform. the Liberate system is very old now (in tv terms!), so no matter how much the Liberate system is patched and fixed, it's still old technology from the former cable-cos.

It's going to cost VM a small fortune moving everyone over, but a superior platform is worth it.

Sky's platform is creaking too, that's why they are only giving out Sky+HD boxes.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

The tivo box is rumoured to be £189 for existing customers and you are right it is 1Tb. Personally I wouldn't be interested if it were a 1Gb box. :)

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Only after midnight?:) They've always been sluggish, full stop.

Unfortunately with a balance sheet that is 6 billion in the red, that takes the higher priority. If it weren't for the debt, no doubt vm would spend half a billion in one hit and get all the stbs replaced ASAP. Instead they spend about 200 million on all upgrades including broadband, so its going to take about 3 years to replace all the stbs in circulation.

:D Yes, it appears she is around quite a bit at the moment.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Ah, so does that mean do nothing, and get a free upgrade to HD in up to 3 years?

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

So, when can we expect progress on the issues the OP highlighted?

Yes, but not every customer wants to pay for it. But, I'd expect the majority want the service they have already paid for to work as well as it could. Not something that V+ could be reviewed as currently.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Sluggish operation after midnight - unlikely
Bugs with padding in certain cases - WIP
Capacity indicator unable to cope well with HD - WIP
Chase TV doesn't work well on HD channels - what's "chase tv" ???
Lack of a dynamic EPG - unlikely


There will be different TiVo products going forward, so not everyone will be going over to the 1TB product.

The V-HD will have the TiVo download for EPG etc at a later date.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Delay TV I think

I assume he means that the FF/RW functions acts etc aren't as responsive on HD than they are on SD

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

My understanding is that the V+ becomes sluggish after midnight because it is uploading the information for the next day. The specification of the boxes is only just sufficient to cope with the process, whereas if there was spare capacity, the system wouldn't slow down like this.

Hopefully the new TIVO boxes will have plenty of spare capacity so that we do not experience similar problems with this now or in the foreseeable future.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Yeah, a few times during the recent cricket on SSHD1 I've paused the live TV for a couple of minutes then come back. When resuming, occasionally the box will get itself into a mess and skip a few seconds before eventually catching up with itself. Not a major issue, but annoying when watching live sport. Never had these problems with SD channels in the past, only noticed it on HD channels.

---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Not that I'm claiming any knowledge on this, but surely there's some code in the firmware which is telling the box exactly when to begin the EPG information grab, a time that could be changed to later on in the early hours. It seems logical, but maybe I'm taking a too simplistic view of the issue.

It was probably a bit harsh to mention the lack of a dynamic EPG as a bug, it's not a bug, just the lack of a pretty essential feature.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

As far as I understand it, even if it could be moved the upload doesn't just cover the V+ HD boxes, but the V HD and SD boxes as well - and they only carry a one day EPG.

So if you move the time those customers (who outnumber the V+ customers by a fair bit!) may end up not having EPG information for times when people actually watch TV

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Slightly off-topic but will the tivo be a dynamic epg. Will tivo do the neccessary updates? I would hope so as that would be partly what the £3 sub would be for wouldn't it?

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

If the Tivo doesn't have a dynamic EPG, it would be laughable. I have near 10 year old Freeview boxes which have dynamic 7-day EPGs, for it not to be in brand new DVB-C boxes would be disgraceful.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Ah Cool. I understand now.

I'm unaware of that being worked on as I've not seen it documented. It may well be. Spiderplant may know :)

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

It's not a problem I'm aware of at all. I've just tried it on an SA V+, and SD and HD trick play seem equally responsive to me.

The slowdown at midnight GMT is when the V+ is updating its EPG for the new day that's just started. DVB defines the days starting at midnight, so if it did it later, you'd either have an out of date EPG or not EPG at all for a few hours.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Cheers SP. I've not seen it myself either.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I must admit the padding issue around multiple recordings is annoying, that why now if I have two scheduled recordings starting at the same time I use manual recording process.

Any chance of a bug fix in the foreseeable future?

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I've never understood why the v+ slows down so much doing this. I thought I read somewhere than it has a 300MHz cpu. The Tivo Series 1 takes as long, with twice the amount of data (it carries around two weeks of guide data), but with a 50 MHz CPU. I am not counting the download time, as the stock Series 1 uses dial up, so it's not a fair comparison.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Its the SA boxes that suck the big one. Move over to a Samsung and no more issues after midnight and it is much, much quieter. They won't be able to fix the SA as it is a hardware limitation issue, rather than software.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Surely though, you have a 7 day EPG (or however long it is with Virgin). That being the case, why would you be without an EPG after midnight if it didn't update until later? You might only have 6 days instead of 7 but I don't understand why you wouldn't have one at all.

I recently went back to Sky from Virgin, while I own a Sky HD box, I went the VUDuo HD box route. This box is a Linux TV receiver, fully customisable and takes the Sky card (although you need an official Sky box to initially pair the card to).

One thing this box has shown me is how Sky and Virgin should have done things. Simple options to specify the time of day to get the EPG updates, options to say how many days I want to get/stored.

Options to say how long I want to add by default to the beginning or end, up to me, could add 2 hrs if I wanted.

One press to see the timers, can in seconds edit end times for any particular program I want.

Playing back a recorded program, press one button and it skips over the padding to when the program should have started which 99 times out of 100, is exactly at the start of the program.

Setup options to allow me to specify the speed of ff/rw up to 256x the speed.

Youtube streaming, podcasts, stream media from my PC

etc etc etc

If it takes a few years to get these 1TB boxes to us, they'll be old technology by the time we get them.

Both Virgin and Sky need a kick to get themselves into gear. For example there's no real reason either couldn't make the Harddrives customer upgradable (like the PS3 has done). People were unofficially sticking 1TB drives in their Sky HD boxes in early 2009. Sky customers own the boxes (or do after 12 months) hence if they want to risk adding a drive at their expense (which in reality means a massive saving), they can. With Virgin, we don't have this luxury. If I'm spending £200 on a VM box, I expect that box to be mine to throw what size HD in I want (so long as the software supports it of course). By the time everyone has these boxes 5TB drives will be the norm at under £50.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

As the box at all times remains the property of Virginmedia that is not something that can be done with an Vboxes including the TiVo.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

That PVR does sound a very nice bit of kit, did a quick google and was impressed.

Unfortunately it all boils down to marketing. No company in their right mind would release such a high tech piece of kit that is so fully customisable.

If they were to release something like that then it would cannibalise all other products and the inferior products would gather dust in the warehouse.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

It's an issue on the Samsung as well. I don't know how much difference there is between boxes, but on the Samsung it's certainly a PITA. Seeing as the SA box is a slower heap of junk I'd imagine the problem is worse.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:47 ----------

Here's another bug that I'd forgot about but has just cropped up. Another Delay TV bug on HD. Here's the example, watching the build up to Wigan/Newcastle on SSHD1, suddenly, it switches to last nights coverage of the darts on the same channel, which I was watching at the time. Neither programme has been recorded. This lasts for about 15 or so seconds, then reverts back to the correct program. Obviously a bug relating to content that's been saved in the buffer.

Anyone else had this?

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I was very happy with my SA. To say it's a heap of junk is being a bit over the top IMO.


Never heard of that before. Maybe your box needs reformatting?

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

Maybe, but every other box out there is miles ahead. Both Samsungs are better, as is the Cisco box and, obviously, the Tivo. I can't get over how slow the SA is. I've not used anything this slow since the old OnDigital boxes of the late 90s. As for the hardware issue where is makes a racket... I don't seem to have a good relationship with their products, I've got a 2100 Modem which is getting replaced later this week, apparently they don't react well to the recent upload upgrade.

It's happened a few times. Would love to get some video evidence, but it not a recurrent issue, just crops up every couple of weeks. Might be an idea to format, although getting through the backlog of recordings will take some time.

Re: Will Virgin ever fix the numerous Liberate bugs?
 

I also have an SA and have no issues with it and nor is it particularly slow in performance.

I also get to use both the SA and the Samsung in work and find very little difference in performance between them and ours get worked a damn sight harder than any customers box ever will as they are used for diagnostics.