Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

[ Source ], so Virgin Media use BT's wholesale service but Virgin Media refuse to allow competition onto it's network, I wonder why the competition commission hasn't stepped in yet?

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Because Virgin's cable network was built commercially, entirely with private capital and covers about 50% of the population. BT's network, on the other hand, covers almost 100% of the population, a situation that only exists because for decades it was a State-owned monopoly.

BT has a unique competitive advantage because of its former nationalised status. That is why it is regulated differently.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Perhaps because BT's network (I am talking about the lines to houses here, not the backhaul) was largely paid for by the public? While the cable network was built by Virgin's predecessors largely, so while Virgin (previously NTL/Telewest) did not directly pay for it (although they bought the debt), I think they should have some say who uses it.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

This is a point however, If VM won't work with BT, then how do we operate our phone lines, surely this has to go through a BT network.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

The calls go from VM Telephone Exchanges to BT Exchanges, then down the local loop.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Was it 'United Artists' before Telewest ?

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Yes, along with Jones Cable, PacBell, Encom, and lots of others...

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Cabletel also springs to mind

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

It's not about VM working with BT or not. The connections that enable VM to route calls to the BT network exist, and it's in VM's interest for them to exist, so they aren't going to go. This doesn't really have anything to do with phone lines.

This is about VM allowing other companies (Sky in particular have expressed an interest in this) to broadcast and offer internet access using VM's cable network, bypassing VM as much as is possible.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Surley Virgin would allow them if they got enough money or a good enough deal out of it. My guess is Virgin would be looking alot for the access and imo have to right to.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

I suspect they would. Whether any company is willing to pay that much is another matter though.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Who paid for Sky's platform, which has a requirement to have competitors on its' EPG at a regulated rate, and is forced to wholesale a selection of its' content at regulated rates?

The whole public private thing is zero defence due to Sky's regulation, amongst other things.

Virgin's business model relies on their total vertical integration. Owning the network and all the services going along it. To lose the retail revenue would cause them some issues as their prices are extremely low. To offer a decent wholesale service on their network the wholesale pricing would probably be very close to the retail one. Wholesale partners are unlikely to tolerate networks spending 9 months a year congested.

Virgin are purely protected because they aren't selling that well in their covered areas. If they covered any more of the UK than they do or were selling better in their covered areas they would be subject to closer scrutiny. As it is thanks to Sky and Freeview they don't have 50% of the TV market in their areas and don't have 50% of the telco or broadband market so don't have Significant Market Power in any market.

They kinda owe Sky for that, perversely if the Sky offering were not so strong VM would be in danger of acquiring sufficient TV customers to be considered to have SMP :)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

We aren't talking about the EPG. It's worth noting that VM do allow other companies on their EPG. Their rates are effectively regulated by the need to compete with Sky.

As for their delivery system, well, anyone who has enough money can set up a ground station, and rent space on one or more of the Astra transponders. Sky cannot prevent that even assuming they wanted to. I suspect that Sky would prevent that if they could.

So, yes, the public/private thing is a defence.

And seeing as the article is actually about requiring VM to open the cable network to other ISPs, has Sky ever been required to open their own lines to other ISPs? Has anyone, apart from BT?

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Indeed but they have the final call over it. Sky have no such luxury and must allow others who pay to use their EPG. I could set up a channel dedicated to discussing my dislike of goat's cheese and Sky would have to carry it on their EPG if I paid the Ofcom mandated fee.

You just kinda killed your own argument there. The point of the regulation is in part due to the barriers of entry. As you have rightly said anyone who has the money could set up a ground station and rent space on Astra. Compare that to the costs of competing with BT or Virgin Media, far higher barrier to entry, far stronger case to regulate access to facilitate competition.

Nope - based purely on barriers to entry and ignoring SMP the case to regulate Virgin Media's network is far stronger than that of Sky. Sky's distribution mechanism is rented and anyone could do likewise if they chose with relatively little outlay compared with digging up roads to compete equivalently with Virgin.

Who paid for the network is entirely irrelevant. This isn't my opinion, this is the opinion of the regulator.

Sky don't have any of their own lines? :confused:

To answer your question yes, Kingston Communications are adjudged to have Significant Market Power in Hull, therefore are required to open their network to other operators.

The above document has some odd things about it in Virgin's favour though. BT are regulated differently depending on which area of the country we are dealing with and their market share in those areas, the exchange areas being split into Market 1, 2 and 3 with 3 being deregulated and BT allowed to charge different wholesale prices, Virgin Media are for what ever reason regulated based on their share of the market nationwide. It's something that should be addressed regardless of outcome as it is a discrepancy.

You may find this interesting, do especially note page 11.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

It's a bit a thin as a counter argument. Your not talking apples and apples.

Your talking the broadcast arena here, as far as I'm aware BT do not "have" to open up their network for purely Broadcast purposes.

Sky has to wholesale some of its content, namely the football, because it has monopololised it. Same way BT has to open up its Access Network because it has a monopoly on it. Anyway Sky do alright out of that arrangement, remember the spat they had with VM ver Sky 1 etc. Thousands of subcribers failed to flood back to Sky when they took it off VM.

That's *******s. Virgin are not protected by anything. The only thing that "protects" Virgin as you put it, is the fact virgin are not a monopoloy and there is healthy competetion in this sector, but that goes the same for everyone (except BT of course). Virgin are not getting special treatment from anyone.

If Virgin was to outbid sky (not going to happen) for all the premier league rights, I can guarantee you that virgin would be constrained by the same rules currently in place for sky.

I don't understand why you think Virgin should thank sky??? It's just about competition that's all, and nothing more, nothing less.

The whole public/ private thing, as you say, isn't the reason - it's just competition.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

It was perfectly robust as a counter argument. The whole premise was that because Virgin's infrastructure was funded by private money there should be no obligation to supply services on a wholesale basis. I pointed out another case where there was a service funded entirely by private money which was required to wholesale. If you want a more relevant one the BT NGA is required to be open access.

I wasn't discussing Sky's content, I was specifically discussing its' EPG. It does not have a monopoly over the Astra network but is required to offer access to its' EPG at regulated rates.

Virgin are receiving some rather pleasant treatment from Ofcom and they know this. They have approximately 49% of the retail telephone, broadband and TV market in their passed areas with the 51% remaining split between all other operators but are not adjudged to have SMP.

Here's a thought - if competition is so healthy in VM passed areas that there is no need for regulation on VM why are BT regulated in the same manner there as everywhere else?

It's because the regulation is not being applied with any granularity or locality beyond the distinction between Hull and the rest of the country. As BT pointed out whether it's the middle of nowhere, a VM passed area with several LLU operators or a brand new apartment block which the operator has installed fibre optics throughout the exact same obligations sit on BT. Virgin are the main beneficiary of this in that their share of all markets drops significantly once taken nationally due to restricted coverage. They go from seriously in danger of SMP to not particularly interesting.

I remember speaking with some guys around the time of Project Octopus. One big concern about that product was covering too much and getting unwanted regulatory attention :)

It's academic anyway, Europe seems extremely keen on ensuring that Virgin along with other cable companies open their passive infrastructure up. Best get ready to survey those ducts Pierre :)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

When the devils skates to work my friend :)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Thanks to Europe that won't be far away, next 12 - 24 months :)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Well i am sure those surveys can take a while ;)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

We appear to have lost the paperwork - the dog must have eaten it.....;)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Or just assign one person to do the whole country and make sure that every duct and pit is only opened after full health and safety checks have been completed and method statements submitted. They should have an answer by 20?? . Meanwhile we just tell them its coming soon :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

it may interest you to know that virgin media telephone exchanges[switches] are maintained by BT . they are regular visitors to our head ends and hub sites ,and we actually work side by side .

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

Virgin could look at wholesaling access in areas which would significantly benefit BT (far distance from exchange, for instance), but the challenge is training the staff at BT (wholesale or otherwise) to fault-find and diagnose problems with a cable installation. That takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money to do the job as effectively and competently as Openreach does for analogue and digital telephone lines, and xDSL installations.

At the end of the day it comes down to money. Virgin have to make it a worthwhile investment to open up their network to the single biggest wholesale player in the world. If they go in with their trousers around their ankles nobody wins because everybody gets shafted.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

I was actually joking about the survey. A third party would most likely be doing it as was the case with BT :)

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

I was at a recent broadband event listening to Virgin discuss their next gen deployment and how it needs BT to pull it's finger out and open access to it's ducts and poles.

When asked if Virgin would be open to doing the same.
Not a chance.

Right now VM have a method to supply 200mb, if they want they can pull out the coax and deliver fibre down the same ducting (1gb++). They hold all the cards today, they have a plan for tommorow.

The many companies who deployed the diverse cable network in the UK paid for it themselves, not the taxpayer... So.. the last bit to the home they will never open up.
But the backhaul, I'm sure there will be sale of this bandwidth.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

VM have been providing backhaul bandwith and fibre for over a decade.

For example, VM provide backhaul for Talk Talk, Orange/T-Mobile, O2 and virtually every other carrier out there.

Re: Virgin Media refuse to open to competitors.
 

It all happy families and sharing on the core network, lots of unexpected relationships there.

Like I say, the customer drop is where the key is... nobody wants to make it easy for anyone else. In fact there will be moves from all parties to make it as difficult as possible.