Students Rioting in London.
 

There was Police Medic forcing people back and a regular officer had to tell him to stop it :)

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...d_Start_Fires_

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Students :dozey:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yeh students, we must be so proud of academia.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What we are doing to our young people is unforgiveable.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

If you are referring to tuition fee's, then many will agree....but rioting and civil disorder does not make that right.

A peaceful well managed march is perfectly acceptable, and will do much to bolster the students argument.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

:shrug: Whilst the levels of fees might be up for debate the actual concept of them is fine with me. If someone wants to obtain a decent education then having to pay for it after they graduate doesn't bother me in the slightest.

And as for the idiots who have rioted, hopefully the criminal convictions they get knacker any chances they have of a well paid job in the future.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

very noble but isn't it free in scotland ?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No - it's paid for by the taxpayers of the UK.....;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Probably not for much longer ...

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

by uk i assume you mean England;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

A common misconception made by the English....:D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

An amusing take on this -

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...-201011103243/

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

However rioting Smashing windows and attacking the police is as well. I hope any arrested and put before the judge have the book thrown at them.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Library book, hopefully - so they will learn their lesson in a number of different ways......

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Indeed.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Incorrect assumptions on how much taxpayer money Scotland gets in comparison to the rest of the UK aside the protest seems to have been hijacked by rent-a-mob.

There was one mouthy idiot on sky news earlier claiming this was entirely legimate as a form of protest and when pushed admitted she wasn't a student but was a full-time activist for change.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What has happend today is a sick and inexcusable act while Students
have the right to protest.thay do not have the right under any substances to
course civil disobedients the national students union should hang there heads
in sham for letting it's members get out of control.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I just saw it on the news. The people it showed had huge grins on their faces, even with the camera right next to them.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

wonder when Gary will start the "police brutality at student protest thread ";)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Nowhere near enough Police brutality at it. From what I've seen it was allowed to get completely out of hand once the violence and vandalism started.

---------- Post added at 18:44 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822

The only stand-off should be between the Police discussing which batons to use and how they should be handcuffed once its all over.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

He's not. he's going to moan about how they just stood back and did nothing :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Win-win situation.....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I've just watched it on the 6.30 news and it's a disgrace .Prior to the rioting i think the students had a point ,a good argument ,but know they will just be seen as drunken loutish students who think the way to win an argument is with a brick through a window ,haven't done themselves any favours :dunce:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What l saw on Tv was appalling, and that mindless idiot who threw the fire exstinguisher, should be jailed immediately.

But this has all been caused by the fool of Clegg, he stated that student fees would not be touched and he has gone against his word, whioch is typical of all polictians, but it was noted on the coverage, that the cameras were ctaching the bad points about the protesting.

We have to supply education to students at a reasonable rate, and one that can be afforded, but what happened today was mindless.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Ah so a Lib-Dem politician, who isn't in charge of the country is responsible for Felix, Jasmine and Tarquin smashing up a chunk of London. :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

How come they weren't doing coursework/attending tutorials?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

WOW Arthur you've written a post i nearly agree with ,it's not cleggs fault it's the students that smashed and tore apart shops and buildings ,as i said earlier thay had a good argument but because of a few idiots they have lost the argument ,Clegg and co must be very gratefull to them for because it makes the awkward questions easier to answer now

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That's assuming those involved in the riots were actually students and not career protestors that just came along for a riot.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So if these are the kind of idiots that will be affected by the fees going up I say put them up more.

Get the riff raff and the **** out of the system.

(This is based upon the footage just seen on the C4 News)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

From the BBC link.So that number peacefully protested and then left.

About 2 dozen according to the BBC.

Let's please not let this get out of proportion or perspective.

A very tiny minority were involved so please let's not tar all the students and other protesters from today.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well 'Students' are a diverse group so the arguments don't suddenly become invalid because a minority rioted. It's been pretty quickly condemned by the organizers and the National Union of Students in strong terms, nothing like the non-committal statements given out by UAF or EDL ones.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That is true ,but unfortunately students do get a lot of bad press mostly their own doing it has to be said and this episode does more harm than good to a otherwise just cause .The decent students will unfortunately be tarred with the same brush now

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So 50,000 students are **** because 24 people are hooligans..

I think that most of us are capable of reading the facts rather more fully and of drawing a much fairer conclusion.;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Only by people who want to do so. Students are a distinct group which people already know, they will only tar them with the same brush if they had no experience of them before or if they were a group that seems to do little else but protest (UAF,EDL again).

A lot of people will have either been one or have a child who was or is a student. They are unlikely to get confused.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

who said that ? certainly not me i suggest you read posts Maggie before commenting :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

:clap:
exactly -the majority of students are descent folk ,its not their fault that a small bunch of idiots hijacked the day .

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

32 arrested, 2 dozen more still causing trouble, others away from the 'front line' and so not arrested. That all adds up to more than 24.:rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

there is that aswell .

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So what? 7 + extra and we condemn every student who protested peacefully and then went home?Don't roll your eyes at me..:p:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

OK. So make it 50. Out of 50,000. That's 1/10th of a percent. I suspect that 1/10th of a percent of the general public would be up for a bit of a riot when given the opportunity. A look at a city centre on a Friday or Saturday night would suggest the number is quite a bit higher.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

yes that's what i thought ,no-one said anything about all students being **** because of a few louts .If you read the post i quite clearly state that unfortunately all students will be tarred with the same brush ,that is my opinion ,it does not mean that i think all students are **** ,the same as i don't think all students are drunken idiots just because a few organize "drink untill you pass out parties".so please don't try to twist my words .

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Oh I'm sorry I obviously somehow got a tone of negativity against students from that post.If that wasn't your intention I apologise.

I'm merely asking for everyone to keep this story in proportion.;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I don't like the idea of fees, but at least they have not gone with all of the proposals from the Browne Review (a review set up by the previous Government), such as e.g. unlimited fees. They're also increasing the repayment threshold, making it much fairer than the stupidly low threshold set by the previous Government.

By the way, how would you propose that the Government funded things if it kept tuition fees at their current level?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Sell more places to foreign students?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Don't cut University funding would be a good start.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Could I also point out (as I have before) that the £3.3k that the students pay the Uni's (mostly initially funded by HMG/taxpayer on student loans) is not the total given to the institutions - most Uni's get between £3k and £7k per student (depending on the course) as the teaching grant, with additional money for Capital Projects (this of course doesn't count the money loaned on Accommodation Loans, about another £3k funded mostly by HMG/taxpayer) - so the total amount per student per year costs HMG/taxpayer between £9k and £13k, with currently approx £6k per year to be paid back over 10-30 years.

That's why there is a funding shortfall.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes, but fees are going up to compensate for an 80% cut in teaching grants (excluding Science and Medicine if I am not mistaken).

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

accepted , i'm only negative towards the idiots that that think smashing windows will win the argument ,because of this students that want to get their point accross in a grown up fashion will have to work alot harder or they will just be ignored as "the bloody rioting students "

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yup - STEM subjects (Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths).

The point I was trying to make is that everyone goes on about £3k per year, when in fact the true cost is a multiple of that (and someone has to pay it - should it be the student or the taxpayer, or a mixture?).

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I find this figure of 24 a bit off track. At one point there were over two hundred wrecking the foyer of Millbank. It wasn't just a few windows broken they completely wrecked the foyer. So we will be footing the bill for that. They said there were similar numbers on the roof.
I feel sorry for those students that have nothing to do with this. As is said they will be tarred with the same brush.I would guess there will be more rules now about protest marches.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Thats the tories for you, and I wonder how many will vote lib-dems next time.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Could have sworn it was the Labour Government who commissioned the Browne Report.....

And remind me who introduced tuition fees and top-up fees?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It should bee both as the country as a whole benifits from a well educated workforce but with the biggest beniffitter (is that a word?) ie the student, paying the most 60-70% IMHO

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yup.

Ooh, me me! I know :)

Tuition fees: Labour

Top-up fees (despite a previous Manifesto pledge against them): Labour


:D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Amazing how quickly people forget isn't it :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

From the pictures I've seen there were a lot of people waving SWP banners.

My bet's on 'activists' causing most of the damage/violent behaviour, not true students and lecturers... :shrug:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Oi! What have I told you before about bringing facts into things! :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

If they're meant to end up being that well educated, how come there are big shortages in important skills(science & engineering) and complaints from employers about graduate skills.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

When you think some of these students will go on to be Doctors and Lawyers, but they will bein debt for the rest of there lives, due to to the increase in fee's.

The government has gone back on there word, and this happened with the poll tax, another Tory tax that brought the worst riots l ghave ever seen in London in my lieftime.

The students rallied to protest against fees that they will have to pay - what happened was a riot in London, which was totally wrong.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

High student fees/loans are not that much of a problem in the US(and elsewhere).
Link
And that is just the course fees, ie not including living costs.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And why is that?

Bankrupt much springs to mind...

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Wish I could find the picture of a home made banner expressing disgust at 'tuition fee's' - note the apostrophe.

BBC news report.

Where the person who wrote that sign needs to go to remedy their English, primary school, doesn't charge tuition fees.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well, I think the Doctors & Lawyers will be able to afford it ;)

Plus, of course, as mentioned earlier, the salary threshold for loan repayment is being increased (above the pathetic level Labour set it at), so although the fees will be higher than at the moment, graduates will also have to be earning a fair bit more than they have to earn now before they start re-paying the loans.

The Government never gave its word not to increase fees. It also was not responsible for commissioning the Browne Report into higher education funding, which actually recommended unlimited fees - the previous Government commissioned it.

If Labour had won the GE in May, the Browne report would still have come back saying "We think fees should be unlimited", and the Labour Government would still have had the same tough decisions to make that the Tory/LibDem Coalition Government has had to make: Where do we get the money from...

---------- Post added at 01:37 ---------- Previous post was at 00:57 ----------

Did you not read the rest of that link?

etc.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Consider that if the student demo had gone entirely peacefully, it barely even would have made the news.
I was at the very peaceful student demo in London in Nov. '07 and we brought the city to a standstill. We were protesting the introduction of tuition fees by the newly elected Labour gov. It did get a clip on the evening news however, about 3 seconds. We were all packed in the UCL union, and were very surprised with the lack of media coverage.

What happened after 1 million peaceful protestor took to the streets and protested the illegal Iraq war invasion? Nothing.

Nomadking, what is this nonsense about the tuition fees being no problem in America? I spent some years growing up over there, for your information it IS a problem over there, its a complete rip off and everyone knows it. Basically if you come from a poor background, good luck affording education.

However for those that can partly afford it, the cost is at least somewhat offset by the fact that the overall tax rate in the US is a tiny fraction of what it is here. In the US, its all about me me me, screw everyone else. Just take a gander at how the healthcare bill has been recieved by the wider US public, nuff said.

If in the UK we get screwed by our government, then in the US they are most certainly screwing each other. The US model is not, and has never been a template for us to model our own society around.

It is insane that students in the UK should be expected to pay the ridiculous tax rates we have here, and yet also have to pay for their own education to boot.

Everyone benefits from education. The primary underlying difference between the 21st century society and that of neolithic stone age society is education.
Everyone benefits from it, everyone should pay for it.

Well done students, you made your point but still a long way to go.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

This is the Tory and Lib Dems plan, not Labour's.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Agree. Tough as it may seem (and our eldest will probably be affected) the decision is realistic and would likely have been made whoever won the election as the current system is not sustainable.

Of course none of that will wash with those who blindly oppose whatever savings are made and seem to want to carry on spending money we don't have and our children will have to pay back. That's probably because they're still in denial about the size of the mess the previous government got us into. They're often big on rhetoric when it comes to denouncing whatever the current government does but seem to go very quiet when confronted about what the other lot would have done or how they'd suggest HMG deals with the problems we face.

Anyway, hopefully this might better focus the minds of our students as to which courses are really worth doing and indeed whether university is the right option for them as opposed to almost a default choice. I'm sure I heard on the radio that universities are going to have to publish performance figures and, if so, all this should help students make better judgements on what and where to study. I think that in recent years too many universities have sprung up that aren't offering value for money and I think if students are going to be left in so much debt they ought at least to be assured that they're getting the quality of education they're paying for and have some redress if they don't get it.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Others may say that some are blindly accepting whichever cuts planned by HMG. Not everyone agrees with the narrative that the previous government brought the country to the brink of collapse and that the current government are doing all they can to save it while Labour and their supports snipe from the sidelines.

I think there is a genuine reason to believe that the government are using the excuse of the cuts to cut back the size of the state and drastically reduce spending, which ideologically appeals to them.

The previous government was in favour of a graduate tax. I am too. Rather than this massive increase in students fees, and they want to charge increased interest on these massive loans. This seriously screws over people that go on to pass the £21,000 threshold but not exceed £35,000 in their careers. They end up paying more than people who go on to earn £100k + as they will pay it back in no time and pay less interest.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So if things aren't going your way you should throw a tantrum and smash up a few things?

If you think students should be handed the moon on a stick to continue a ridiculous degree of no use to anyone then fine but I'm a realist and know if you are studying for a relevant degree likely to get you a good job then investing in your future isn't really that bad an idea.

Aside from that I hope the Guardian are happy with the policing of demos after G20.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Anyone see the NUS president and that horrible woman on BBC breakfast? There's a clip on BBC news. Says our all really.

The NUS was actually quite nice for a union leader (although I'm not sure it counts as a union in the traditional sense?). But the woman was horrid, saying "it's out a few windows of the Tory party headquarters and the banks blah blah blah..."

Any sympathy will soon evaporate.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I don't know where I stand on this to be honest. On one point I don't think a peaceful protest wouldn't matter to this government one bit, if actions speak louder than words then I have to say fair enough.

Some look at the way the French strike, riot or whatever to get their point across and then I often hear that this country when pushed just end up making a cup of tea and take it up the you know what. Sometimes a point has to be made, regrettably some take it way too far, but again if it was peaceful it probably would be all forgotten by now that it ever happened.

I think it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'm sure those in power now will say their protest cause is now lost because of the violence etc, they'll use it against them, but if it was a peaceful protest they'd do nothing anyway. When it's all died down a bit at least their point has now got across. So I'd have to say I'm 'for' action, as long as it's done well.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I think the NUS conducted themselves appropriately throughout this entire protest. They worked well the the police, they deplored the violence in strong terms, and the actual march they organised was peaceful and well managed.

There is a good video of some students outside the Tory HQ chanting against those who were throwing things from the roof.

The reporting of the protest this morning has been keen to differentiate between the students and those who attached themselves in the march in order to cause disruption. A former senior member of the flying squad said the same on the radio this morning, that the NUS would never have been the problem but rather a professional group of troublemakers who use all marches to cause trouble.

As such I don't think sympathy will evaporate. As I mentioned previously a lot of people will either have been a student or be closely related to someone who was/is/will be a student. It's too big a demographic to effectively tar them all with the same brush, that really only works when people have had little exposure to the group in question.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I agree with Damien.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Another topic really so before we get slapped by another mod I'll just reply.. ;)

Oh right so the party in power during the entire period when all this was being allowed to happen aren't responsible for it? That's a novel definition of political accountability.....:confused:

Of course not everyone agrees with that and many of them will be the people I referred to. However thankfully enough people did feel they were to blame to ensure they were booted out of power.

Well there's genuine reason to believe that the last government was idealogically fixated with the public sector and that's why it mushroomed on their watch. The reality is that the public sector is paid for by the private sector and has got to the point where it cannot be afforded. Whilst simply borrowing money to write out cheques to keep the public sector where it is may be popular with the voters it isn't sustainable and taking the substantial political flak by facing up to that harsh truth is to be commended. Perhaps if Brown had done it he'd still be in power.

You talk as if the £9k figure is cast in stone. I very much doubt all universities will go that far although the very best ones probably will. I'm sure I heard on the radio that universities are going to have to publish performance data. If so, this should allow students them to assess whether what's being offered represents value for money. I think if they're going to be landed with as much debt as they currently are, it's only fair that they have such information at the outset and I'd like to think they'd have some redress if they don't get what they paid for too.

Hopefully all this might better focus the attention of students on where to go and what to study as opposed to seeing university as just the default option after 'A' levels and without considering what happens after uni. The fact is that we don't have suitable jobs for anywhere near all the graduates we produce and if a higher proportion of school leavers can be attracted into viable alternatives then at least the graduates we do produce will have a better chance of being able to put into practice what they've worked so hard to achieve.

Finally, I think it was a very small minority of 'usual suspects' who caused all the trouble yesterday. I just hope that when they plan future protests, however, the NUS will think harder about when/where/how and do as much as they can to prevent this minority hijacking their cause. It wouldn't have done their image any harm if the majority had visibly let their feelings be known to the troublemakers.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Nice to see the "pride of Britain" yesterday.

Shambolic.

The bottom line is that anyone that goes to university will not have pay anything back until they are earning enough to.

So they'll have a debt when they leave university, welcome to the world you get nothing for nothing and the sooner you realise that the better.

There are students doing courses that only have 7-10hrs a week of lectures, which leaves plenty of time to get a job.

I had a friend that did a BSc, MSc and then went on to do a medical degree - full time. She self financed herself by working several part-time jobs throughout her study, bought a house and paid a mortgage whilst studying. (whilst I accept that is an exceptional case I am using it as an example of what is achievable if you put your mind to it)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Funny how the ill educated often have a problem with those who are.
Ridiculous degree of no use? I assume you say that because your view of uni education is no doubt based upon commonly held stereotypes and misconceptions, simply because (presumably) you never achieved the grades to gain entry and experience it for yourself.
Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Anyhow, you missed the point in that in this country, the tax burden is already near insurmountable and to add on £9K debt on top is too much.
This country needs to invest in education, and if we don't we'll continue to fall further behind.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

erm, how do you know that Dezza hasn't been to Uni, and/or is "ill-educated"?

You seem to be as guilty of stereotyping as some others.......

btw, re the tax burden - where do you think the money for the Universities currently comes from - the money tree?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What on earth are you on about?
If you opened your eyes for a minute, you'd soon realise the reason the goverment is struggling with the funding is because they've wasted so much money on other endeavours, their policies are a shambles. Clearly the money comes from the public purse, but don't see the relevance tbh.
As for Derek, I've read enough of his posts on here to gauge that he's capable of speaking for himself, so either add something to the discussion or mind your own business.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Wrong. I went to uni, a very good one in fact and I financed my own way through it. If I had to pay to get the education I would have done so.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I believe the kids of today would say "epic fail"....:D

I actually agree that we need to invest in education (Higher and other), but we also need to have a rational conversation about the funding, not just reiterate polemical rants.....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yep in between spaying graffiti round an office block in London of course.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Or that someone's telling "epic" fibs, if you'd earned a degree worth its salt I seriously doubt you'd be serving in your current career field.
No offense meant, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Responsible yes, but that doesn't mean they caused (all of) it. A large part of the current deficit was caused by an international financial crisis. The UK is not the only country that has to make drastic cuts. It seems rather naive to me to suggest there wouldn't have been a mess under a different government. Perhaps there would have been less of a mess, but if you look around Europe, there are plenty countries that need to make deep cuts regardless of the colour of the government.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It is that kind of arrogant attitude that does you, and others like you no favours.

I as a tax payer, who did go to University but was funded by industry, find it highly relevant.

As the student populace, that showed themselves in all their glory yesterday were, actually protesting for the British taxpaying public to continue to supplement them.

Whereas, when I see a student I see, usually, perfectly healthy young people who should be quite capable of at least, partially, supporting themselves whilst they study.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The problem is that the last government managed to cheapen Further Education by insisting everyone could and should get a degree.Ridiculous!

It shouldn't be about who can afford buy the education and a degree.It should be about this country making sure her brightest children get the education this country requires whatever their social and economic status.It can only benefit us as a society.

If that means far fewer go to university to get a really worthwhile degree because there isn't enough in the public kitty so be it.If there are fewer universities so be it..A degree should MEAN something not just be a piece of paper to wave at a potential employer.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Point of order Sir: A degree involves more than sitting in a lecture theatre and being spoon fed information. You actually have to read books and do course work and prepare for lectures. That's not to say there are no easy degrees, but 7 hours of lectures does not mean you only spend 7 hours a week on a degree. Far from it...

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Just to help you keep your spotless track record of mistaken assumptions - I am currently employed as an IT Director at a University.....:D

(having previously been Head of Technology Services at a major Finance company, Programme Manager at Barclays Capital, Programme Manager at O2, etc etc.....)

Update - just re-read your post, and it could be interpeted that you are calling Derek a liar - was that your intention?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That's how I read it. Still, rather a cheap swipe imo.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Amazing how someone so "educated" can so easily contradict themselves in such a short space of time.

Here you have a go at Derek and cite Obviously making the point that University Degrees are a worthy thing to aim for.

and go on to spout that he probably never went to Uni, spouting drivel about someone you nothing about

Then when it's pointed out to you that Derek did go to Uni, you post

So you by your own admission agree that that there are "worthless Degrees" or "Degrees of no use"

Please advise what, in your, vast experience what degrees are worth their salt and what degrees aren't. I'm really interested to know.

---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 ----------

I'm quite aware of that.

That still leaves 33hrs from a normal working week.

+ extra study hours that I would expect a dedicated person to undertake.

Which in my opinion leaves plenty of time to do course work and seek gainful employment.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

On the contrary, its that sort of twisting of words that does yourself and this forum no favours. I was referring to the concept of free education in this country. The fact that the money come from the taxpayer (who incidentally benefits from education) is the way it ought to be, in my opinion.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and take this a step further.
Those students are doing what you lot probably ought to be doing yourselves (without the destruction) of course. They are standing up for what they believe it.
You're paying 80%+ tax on fuel, and what have you done about it?
You know it isn't fair, but what have you done? About the same as me, nothing.
We get taxed on our wages, the money we have left then gets taxed again at every avenue. The government, as with any government, will grow to fill the space allocated. Because we are quite happy to simply just bend over and ask for seconds, the government has become a swollen behemoth that knows no bounds.
I see this latest increase in fees as just another tax, just like parking fees at the hospital, these "fees" are paying for things that our taxes ought to. Since the taxes are so high they think they can sneak in back door taxes in the form of various fees, and then all manner of obtuse arguments to justify them.

I don't agree with anarchy, I do agree with you that violence is wrong of course.
But, the recent events have caused the politicians to take notice (for once) and has us discussing it.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Actually, I'd say that 10 hours of lectures a week is quite a lot if you're serious about preparing for them. That doesn't mean you can't spend some time working (as I'm sure many students do), but certainly not 30/33 hours.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

My son is a first year student (studying History), and has 12 hours of lectures/direct teaching time a week - he is expected (as a minimum) to spend three hours self-study for every hour of direct contact (that makes 48 hours a week).

He has tried for a part time job, but has been told by the (over 20) places he has applied to that they don't do term-time only jobs, as their busy times are over Christmas (I would much rather he, and so would he, had a job, as he always had part-time jobs in restaurants when he was in 5th and 6th Form)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Of course.

The point I'm making is that, 40hrs is accepted as a normal working week.

But let's add on top of that at least a couple of extra hours a day, minimum, of extra effort that you should be expected to put in.

That = 50hrs a week of available time for study and work, and I think that is quite conservative, and doesn't include weekends.

So out of that 50hrs - 10hrs direct time for lectures, leaves 40hrs a week.

Even if you use a further 25hrs of that for the rest of your study that would still leave 15hrs a week.

15hrs a week at minimum wage for 50weeks year would still bring in £4,500 a year, less any deductions.

So there's a way of mitigating the increase in tuition fees.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Okay then, we shall see.

This is news? That university degrees are something to aim for?
I swear, only on CF.

Pipe and slippers brigade right enough...

Pierre, of course there are worthless degrees out there !! Noone will deny that, there are plenty of them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in our future. Thats simply taking things too far, but a middle ground is probably needed.

I'm educated enough to not spend all day arguing with some people on CF, because it is quite frankly a complete waste of time.

Also, there's nothing like the fresh scent of CF member sarcasm to end the morning. In my...ahem..vast experience as you put it, I'd say the degrees worth their salt start with the science degrees, and then down from there. The more students we can produce that can excel in the sciences then ultimately the better it will be for us. There will always be plenty of students to fill the other slots in other sectors :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Fair enough. Your wrong and plenty of cops have degrees. The majority in my force join after doing 10 years or so in another job to get some life experience.

Besides the money you can earn in my job isn't exactly pocket change.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Sorry but where have I ever claimed they caused all of it or that there couldn't possibly have been any such problems under a different government? I said they were responsible and the fact that certain other governments around the world were just as inept or even worse doesn't excuse our former leaders one jot. Having said that, as the major financial centre outside NY, what was allowed to happen in the City right under the nose of Brown directly affected many other countries and it was the abject failure of the regulatory system set up on his watch that allowed things to get as bad as they did.

Not quite the same as saying none of it would have happened under the Tories.... ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I disagree regarding the numbers. I think it's a bit silly to expect students to spend 50 hours a week working/studying. There's more to Uni than that.

---------- Post added at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

OK fair enough. I was just pointing out that it's as naive to say that Labour where not to blame as it is to say they were 100% to blame. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That's were I totally disagree.

"There's more to Uni that that"?

Well why should anyone else pay for that experience than the student themselves?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Possibly one way forward would be to condense some of these courses to 2 years in order to make better use of available time and reduce the costs to students.

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

Somewhere to the left of middle wouldn't you say?... ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Nice one :)

I have no particular party political allegiance. I consider myself left of centre, but I grew up in a system based on political consensus. There's no party x is good and party y is bad here. I take things as they come. I find the partisanism that FPTP breeds unwelcome and unproductive, which is why I'm really pleased that we have a coalition government now. Long may it continue (regardless of the actual parties making up the coalition).