Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11525031

Other possible changes include charging proper interest on the loans, at the moment they are linked to inflation only. As well as increasing the earning cap at which you start to pay the loans from the current £15,000 a year to £21,000 a year.

The interest in particular is a pretty mean policy if they go though with it. People have pointed out that it will favor those who earn more faster, after all someone receiving £100,000 a year will pay back the loan considerably faster than someone at £20,000 a year due to being charged less interest.

Now I was for the current system. Uni is expensive and students should probably have to pay for some of it. However these changes are absurd.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Once again the government is going to penalise people that work hard and do well.

Work hard, get a good degree, get a good job, we're going to tax you even more!

Perhaps they should look more at the courses the universities offer - and get rid of some of the more pointless degrees - maybe then it would stop people flooding the universities when they have to acutally (shock! horror!) work for their degree, and have more than 2 hours a week lectures.

This system is basically going to allow people to go to uni for three years, spend their time drinking (which I have no issue with, that's part of uni life) - but not actually do any work, and walk away with a 3rd or a pass - meaning their salary never hits the magic amount where they need to pay it back - whilst anyone who did actually go to university to better themselves is going to be paying through the nose.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

All the people in favour of these changes within the government have already studied for their degrees and have not had to pay back any fees but are now favour charging the children of tomorrow fees that they may never be able to afford let alone pay back, are we now going forward into the realm of education only for the rich which will make a degree an elitist symbol of money.

So once these fees come into place we will have an education system that only caters for the people who can afford it, how many bright minds from the poorer areas of Britain will this snuff out as they realise that unless their parents win the lottery their dreams will lie in tatters.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

The worst case scenario is if you stay within the £20,000 to £30,000 band. The interest will kick in at that point but you'll be paying it back so slowly it would be hard to pay it back at all!

Again. They haven't committed to charging Interest though.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

The interest rate they mentioned is 2.2% above the base rate if it becomes law.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Politically this puts the LD's in a very difficult position seeing as their MP's signed a public pledge to fight against increasing tuition fees, I really don't think they can get away with the old chestnut, that in a coalition compromises have to be made, that one is trotted out by Cleggy each time his in a difficult position.
I'm sure the likes of Bob Russell and other principled LD MP's will stick to their manifesto pledge and campaign against Brown's proposals, unlike Vince and Nick who seem to have thrown key pre-election pledges out the window once they become politically difficult.
I've no doubt that many LD MP's owe their seats to students who would have voted for them primarily on this issue, I've got a feeling the referendum on AV could well become a large stick for disaffected voters looking to punish the LD's.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

I'm so angry I can't discuss this rationally..:mad:

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

I know what you mean as it will stop many young people from ever going further than college as university will be out of reach, it is like we are going back in time.

This country will become an educational backwater if this goes forward.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Have you thought your proposition fully through?

What is the collateral for this loan - the young person who is applying good intentions? (as they will have nothing else to put up, being "poor).

I always love the posit of "mediocre students going to mediocre Universities" - you appear not to support "widening participation", then, giving those who did not have well-off parents or who could get some form of bursary, the chance of experiencing Higher Education?

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

As opposed to right now where, despite record numbers going to university and record A Level and GCSE results, employers are complaining about levels of innumeracy and illiteracy and having to hire from abroad due to a lack of skills locally you mean?

If this pushes up standards and means that graduates both complete their courses and leave with better prospects than when they started I'm all for it.

I know of several companies, including my own, that have had to hire outside the UK as the skills and experience just didn't exist here. Sadly for technical and engineering professions there isn't much call or use for degrees in Outdoor Adventure with Philosphy, Equestrian Psychology or Martial Arts and Adventure Tourism.

Over 20% of students fail to complete their course and Scotland, where there are no fees, has the highest dropout rate in the UK. The lowest dropout rate is actually in England. Accumulating debt to study is never pleasant, but it would appear to focus the mind.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

No it isn't.People don't pay back benefits.

We need graduates to teach our children but this system is going to make a lot of bright youngsters discount it as a choice of profession.

If a middle of the road middle class family having two or more children wanting to go to university are going to find themselves stretched just to find the contributions that they are expect to pay towards tuition fees, then it may well come to the point that some will be having to choose which of those 2 or3 can actually go to university.

Yes the poorer students will be provided for(but many will choose not to be saddled with any debt at all) and the better off will just pay up front and not bother with loans..

This will be a very divisive system AND at the end of the day it may well be that the loans will not be paid off any quicker than they currently are if at all.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Neither are you if you think that having fees as they are now is giving us many excellent students and top class scholars going out into the workplace. Our skills gap is massive and the increased participation in Higher Education has done precisely nothing to close it.

---------- Post added at 08:47 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------

Could of course save for them, as I have been for my daughter for some time having fully expected to receive nothing from the state for her to be educated beyond FE.

It's what happens in Canada, the USA, and other places that aren't educational backwaters. If we want to make participation as wide as it is there something has to give, no?

I'd suggest that the low pay and other reasons make bright youngsters discount it as a choice of profession. Anyone who goes into teaching looking at it from the financial side is probably barking up the wrong tree ;)

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

I saved for mine but not intentionally..I was saving to ensure that she would have a deposit on a house when the time came but they changed the grants system and it all went on contributions..which were at least capped.

Now at 58 I have no more money to provide the deposit and she has (despite having a 2.1 English degree) to train as a dispensing optician for another 3 years.She is still paying off her loan but very slowly because she still isn't earning nearly enough to do so..

At 27 she is finding that having and obtaining a degree wasn't the sinecure that it was held out to be..

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Not everyone can afford to pay for University. Not every family can afford to save for University either, with two children and a mortgage I imagine the idea of saving for the cost of both children, or even one, to attend University will be too much for the average family. Especially since they are also removing the cap on tuition fees. At the moment two children on a three year course will require they save around £18,000 for the two of them on tuition fees alone. The governments plan looks to double that.

The USA example is poor because it's well known the difficultly students from poorer backgrounds face in going to University.


However this new system would further discourage people going into teaching, as the salary (£20,000 to £35,000) puts them in the group that will end up paying more than anyone else for their education. Earning enough for the government to charge interest and not enough to realistically pay it back any time soon.

This system screws over all but the rich and a lucky handful of the very poor.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

And a massive increase in fees is going to ensure that we get that skillset and it is not going to put people off going to university due to the costs involved.

All we will end up with is an elitist education system in this country and only people with money going to university, the examples of other countries such as the US and Canada is all well and good but this county is not used to these kind of charges, and it will be many years before it is accepted and in that time much of our home grown talent will not have gone to university due to the costs involved.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

:clap:

Those who are not rich should not be discouraged from University.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Thanks for that. Her and many others it would seem.

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

Loans? Investment in your own future? Might be anathema here but is very common elsewhere.

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 ----------

See above. Regardless of whether we're 'used' to it or not we're competing with countries that are. Either this happens or taxes go up to pay, and there is little appetite or incentive for that given how poorly degrees are translating into work right now.

The comments on 'home grown talent' are a total fallacy. Per my previous comments there is little evidence that we are getting anywhere with the current system. If anything they are increasing concerns over the quality of UK degrees due in no small part to people being pushed towards university without the funding being there or being available. Students themselves complain about the quality of their courses and how little teaching they actually receive..

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

What would you suggest is done as an alternative?

There is always some financial discouragement for everyone bar the rich, it's about how it's looked at. Higher Education should be seen as a choice and investment in your future, not as something everyone should do just because.

In an idea world there would be no need to charge anyone for such things, however Scotland's experience seems to indicate that removing this incentive results in higher drop out rate.

As big a danger for me is people spending an extra 3 or 4 years that could be spent doing other things going to University to study something that will be of no help or use. It may make them more rounded people, or not as in my case, but that's not a good use of the taxpayers' money to be honest.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

The plans seem to be making that investment a poor choice, not all degrees lead to high paying (40/50k plus) jobs and the sheer scale of finance that will be needed may make those routes less appealing. Social Work, Teaching and such are two examples of this.

Education isn't simply a tool to maximise your earning power after you leave university.


I think the current system is fair. £9,000 over three years and interest linked to inflation but not any higher. Society benefits from an educated work force and should contribute towards it. This removes some burden from the tax-payer, and encourages personal responsibility from the individual but isn't so limiting as too seriously discourage those from poor or middle class backgrounds to be turned off.

The amount of debt incurred is static. As it's linked to inflation you don't have the prospect/worry of the debt continuing to amass though interest. It's also more manageable. £15,000 is better than way over £30,000 plus interest.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Our eldest is doing his GCSEs and thinking about the future. Once upon a time I'd have encouraged him to go to uni without a second thought but not now. My advice to him will be work hard, get the best results you can and then get out there in the real world before you make any decisions on what to do about further or higher education.

It's ironic that at the same time the degree has become a somewhat devalued currency here, the cost of taking one has escalated and seems to be heading north. Sadly, the market is flooded with debt ridden graduates doing all sorts of relatively menial jobs and with precious little chance of getting a decent one anytime soon it seems. In the push from above to increase the numbers going into higher education, not too much thought appears to have been given to what the resulting stream of graduates are actually going to do with their qualifications and whether they'll be of any real use in building their careers. The fact that we're still being told we need graduates from overseas to fill the gaps left by our own crop of talent rather indicates a lack of strategic planning somewhere along the line.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

This will do nothing to increase the quality of education. This is not extra money going to Universities. It is to make up for the fact that the Government is slashing its' contributions to the Universities' teaching budgets by (that's by, not to) two-thirds. What will happen is that the top Universities that will attract students anyway will fare better, while education at the bottom of the pile will be a mass affair with massive classes and little or no resources.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Universities will be competing for students rather than relying on a block grant and fixed incomes irrespective of quality or relevance of courses. Without being able to get money from the government to offer weird degrees in irrelevant nonsense they can either improve and focus or fail.

It'll also make students more conscious of the quality of their courses. As they pay more they'll expect more and if they aren't getting value for money they will most certainly make sure the institutions know about it.

So saying it'll do nothing is merely equating quality with cash, specifically government cash.

Education at the bottom of the pile is already a mass affair by many accounts.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

A lot less students will be able to afford to go to University so judging the quality of the course is a small consultation if they did. Even at the moment people can take the a smallish level of debt in order to go, this will simply discourage even very talented candidates from University if they are from a poor background.

I don't think the government is cutting University funding so drastically because they want to improve 'quality' or to remove pointless degrees.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

How will these increased fees be funded?

If it's by loans, how will students without collateral get these loans (and if they get them from the Government, HMG still has to find the money up-front)?

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Do they need collateral for student loans at the moment?:rolleyes: The money has to be found up-front by the lenders at the moment, so again no difference to now. The main difference is that more of the outlay of taxpayers money will be repaid in the future.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

How do you work that out?

At the moment, the student borrows approx 3k pa for tuition fees, and 3k for accommodation. If the fees go up to 6k pa, the student will need to borrow 6k for tuition fees, and 3k for accommodation; HMG has said they will only start reducing the block grant if the fees go over 6k pa.

So, if the Government (who will be the main lender to students, because who else would loan 27k to an 18 year old with no collateral), will have to pay out 33% more up front for each student, with no reduction in the block grant payment to the University.

right back atcha......;)

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

I don't think this will actually happen. The sums involved are eye-watering and would be such a drastic hit that the government will never go though with it, it will either be changed prior to a vote or quietly dropped.

The Liberal Democrats will take such a hit at the next election if it did go though. The level of debt a student would have at the end of their three years would be far too much.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

At the moment the taxpayer pays part of the fees that doesn't get repaid. If a higher proportion of the fees cost is in the form of a loan, when that loan is repaid, they have got more of the money back.

In the US students deal with $100,000+ student loans and still those from poorer backgrounds attend college. It's just that they have to be sure that they have the ability&determination and the right course&career in order to justify it.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

At the moment, the University's get a block grant of between 3-5k* per student (in addition to the Student fee of 3k).

The Browne report states the block grant would only be reduced if the student fee was over 6k - so if the Uni puts the Student fee up to 6k, it will still get the block grant of between 3-5k.


*this can be occasionally higher, depending on the course

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...the-world.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11525031

The government are deluding themselves on this, it is utterly unacceptable. If the Liberal Democrats back this they certainly have lost my vote, although that was already on the line with their drastic scientific research cuts.

Least we'll be able to afford state of the art Nukes.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

I doubt people will bother, what's the point of such a debt when over the course of an entire career you earn on average 100k more than some one with out a degree, just seems a shame that we can't find a happy medium where university isn't out of the reach of most or avaliable to all.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ed...k-1835911.html

---------- Post added at 13:37 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

Wont have anyone to make them though...

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

The sad thing is this is reinforcing the idea that the sole purpose of University is to achieve maximum income after you graduate. There are many graduates who go on to do work in areas where the earnings are not that much higher than other jobs. They just want to pursue a career in the field they have a passion for.

As you say, a lot won't bother now. If your choice of degree is not going to substantially compensate for the level of debt incurred why would you go?

I think the current system is a happy medium. We have to accept that Students should pay towards their education otherwise too few could attend. However this is already a pretty expensive country to get a degree in comparative to other countries, so making it worse is absurd. Society benefits from an educated work force.


Can always outsource. :p:

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

How can they afford to go more like.

I don't think it is a happy medium, far, far to many people are going and diluting the value of qualifications, still better that than what it'll be in a few years when it's far, far to few going.

Yeah I am sure North Korea or Iran will be happy to oblige...

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Surprise Surprise! Most Universities are going to charge for full £9,000!

http://www.channel4.com/news/most-un...0-tuition-fees

Also, if you select the 'cheaper' Unis. An awful lot are only a few hundred cheaper!

Cheers to Matt D for the link.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

It doesn't mean that will happen though ,they don't automatically get the right to charge £9000 ,they have to justify it and show a plan of how they will help the poorer students before they are allowed to charge that much

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

True. We have to see how many they approve but I am not holding my breath. Where will the government draw the line..

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

I've just heard on the radio that they're allowed to charge people different amounts even if they're on the same course. What's with that?

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Thats the main issue i think ,do we know what are the criteria ,will permission to charge that amount be based on number of scholarships granted and if so how many ?.If the gov take their eye off the ball with one then they are asking for trouble

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

It's all linked to the silly idea of getting 50% into university rather than 3-4 % and then a number to poly and to colleges and others direct to work for apprenticeships and similar.

Now we are stuck as many places have expanded to accommodate the extras and can't now go back to the smaller numbers when I went (early mid 80's).

The nation can't afford that number so the payment has to come from somewhere and the cost keeps going up.

Maybe more students need to do VSO or similar after graduating so never earn enough to pay back?

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

*Looks up a generation.
*Looks down a generation.
*Feels embarrassed.

I sincerely hope that the quality of the education some of these institutions are providing absolutely goes through the roof to ensure that the students at least get some kind of value for money.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

But the problem is that the Universities aren't getting any more money (and in some cases, less).

The increased Student Loan fee money is just replacing the reduced/vastly slashed teaching grants and Capital grants.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Absolutely true of course Hugh but I was thinking of the perception from the students' point of view. Expectations are a bit different when you see the amounts going onto your own debt pile rather than never seeing the costs as they come from taxation directly.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Agreed - which is why most Universities are working with their (and the National) SU to put together a Student Charter, setting out responsibilities and expectations on both sides, and what and (more importantly for the student) what isn't included in the fee.

Re: Tuition fees may be uncapped (and other changes)
 

Well I'm sure these fees will focus a few minds on quality issues at some of these 'universities' and the fact that there just aren't enough high calibre jobs around for all the graduates being churned out will make many people think again I reckon. I don't think it'll be too long before the pendulum swings back to more vocational training, apprenticeships etc. and degrees etc. will be for the few not the many....