Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11458137

About time too.

However there is always one idiot..

It's this damned grey area that has left staff unable to exert physical discipline in the classroom that has led to there being LESS security for pupils.
Stupid woman..:mad:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Can someone tell me which human right is being infringed if a teacher restrains a pupil who is kicking the crap out of another pupil?

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

I think it's a good idea but common sense will need to be applied and prevail. I wouldn't have thought those running and working within our schools are so bereft of this commodity that a reasonable compromise can't be reached in which the staff can/will intervene sensibly and responsibly either to enforce discipline or to provide comfort to children who've been hurt, taken ill or whatever.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Common sense has always been there..it is unfortunately the uncommon sense that prevails.

Whether it is an idiot teacher using too much force, or an idiot protectionist, banning reasonable restrainment.

bring back the good old days, leather strap, physical force by parents..abusing priests..oops..maybe not :D

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Sadly what used to be common sense has been replaced by rigidly inflexible rules and regulations which take no little or no account of reality and an inbalance in favour of the 'rights' of the problem pupil as opposed to the rights of the decent majority who'd just like to get on with their work in peace and quite.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Or restrains a pupil from kicking the crap out of another member of staff?:rolleyes:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

I get sick to death of hearing about the rights of the unruly to be curtailed what about the rights of the vast majority to be able to go to school and learn as they want. We really do pander to all the wrong sections in this country and then wonder why we have so many social problems. Back in my day you knew if you did something to another kid you would suffer for it these days you can do it and then play the victim and the system protects you what a joke.

I knew a school only a few years ago that had the foolowing rules on bullying that if you got hit once you were meant to count to ten, if you got hit again you had to tell the person that they had hurt you and only on the third strike were you allowed to go to a teacher and complain. That school became a complete mess with bullies working out they could hit someone twice before there was any risk and all for the sake of statistics and not officially being seen to have a bullying problem.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

What physical discipline do want them to exert?

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

None.

---------- Post added at 16:20 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

But that option has always been available.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

The ability to restrain the child without the fear of being charged with assault, I would have thought.....

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Hold the front page ... Flyboy and Michael Gove are in agreement :D

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

No rights have been curtailed and none have been infringed. The ability to restrain pupils who are a danger to themselves or others have never been removed. The choice to apply first aid to an injured child or a consoling arm on the shoulder of child who is up set has always been there. There has never been any law to prevent this.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:25 ----------

Hardly. He is whipping up Daily Heil style rhetoric as a smoke screen to avoid being carpeted again. He probably thinks that if bangs on about this popularised mythical crap, he won't have to mention school closures, building programme cancellations and budget cuts. As is mentioned, it is a myth, so what is he proposing to do?

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

You really don't like to read what's actually reported ...

Here:

Come on Flyboy, even the NUT thinks this is a good idea, and they're not exactly known for giving Tory education secretaries an enthusiastic hearing.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Typical Flyboy reaction.In fact I expected it..I knew he'd be against it and see the words physical discipline as meaning beating the crap out of the pupils rather than preventing them from beating the hell out of each other and the staff.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

My concern is how are they going to, "clarify and shrink that." The two dangers are that they will throw the baby out with the bath water (not an uncommon trait with this particular Secretary of State), or they will do nothing but waste time, effort and money, achieving little more than firing cheap shots at schools, previous govermnents and teachers.

---------- Post added at 18:02 ---------- Previous post was at 17:58 ----------

So, what did you mean by physical discipline?

I am not against it, I just am against the knee-jerk rhetoric playing to the readers of the Daily Heil that every school in the country is going to hell in a handbasket.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Personally, I think the baby has been in the bath too long..water needs changed, baby needs changed, hell, baby no longer baby

Bring back discipline..never put baby back in bath :D

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

But that's not "discipline."

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Yes, the human right of the kid who is being kicked not to be.
:)

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

So you explain to me what discipline is?

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

How dare you.I have my own mind on this and I never read the DM...perhaps you have forgotten I'm a secondary school teacher with 36 years of experience and I know full well what the true state of affairs are in schools up and down the country..And you know full well what I meant by physical discipline or restraint.

It's people like you who have ruined education and the status of teachers and severely affected the ability of children to learn in a quiet and calm atmosphere because the teacher is in charge by taking away the few ways that we ever had of maintaining control. It takes a very long time to be effective when you have a riot on your hands..Detention has no effect what ever on the disruptive(they don't attend and just go AWOL) and suspension merely deprives a child of an education without teaching them any self control..

And don't give me any squit about how a teacher should be able to maintain discipline by talking to children in a calm and logical matter.It works for the majority but the small number of disruptive children won't ever respond to that because they haven't been trained by their parents to do so.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

I agree, too much touchy touchy feely feely (but not literally, that is a no no :) )

The kids get no discipline at home, either because parents don't want to take responsibility, don't know how, or lately because if they do, some doo (yes, i know do is "do", different type of "doo") gooder will quote the child's human rights to never be disciplined.

Impossible task for teachers, but they need something, else, other children's education suffers

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Yep.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Well said :clap:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Discipline is a method of control using a mode of punishment as an incentive. The statement by Gove has very little to do with punishment.


I have not directed any post towards you relating to the Daily Heil. If you have misunderstood any of my remarks about that publication, then I apologise.

No, otherwise I would have not asked the question. As I have mentioned earlier, the definition of discipline is about control, incentivised by punishment on non-compliance. That punishment can range from sanctions and prohibitions, to physical punishment. Perhaps you would like to be clear on what you consider physical discipline to mean.

People like me? What have I proposed that is done in schools that would hold me up as ruining education and the status of teachers? All I have done is tried to dispel the myths what too many people believe occur in every school in the country. There are no laws banning teachers from restraining children if they are a danger to themselves or others. There are no laws banning teachers consoling children if they are upset. I have not mentioned anything about child protection, nor have I written anything about classroom discipline. I have always supported teachers who have had to use reasonable force to remove disruptive children from classrooms. There are, however, lines that should not be crossed, but that is a subject for a different thread.

In any thread on these boards, which criticises teachers (and there have been many), I have always supported and promoted their perspective. Perhaps you have forgotten that I am actually a qualified SSA with, although fewer years service than you and part-time, about five years practical classroom experience, (although most of those years have been spent in a primary school), I have had limited experience, through training placements etc., in secondary schools. The work I do can and has been on many occasions, very challenging. To the extent where I have had to restrain or remove children in several instances. The first school I worked in was on a very rough estate. About fifty per cent of the children there were on statements and another twenty per cent on school action plus. There was an EBD unit on site and as it only had fifteen permanent places, it was constantly full, to the extent where the rest of those with EBD issues, were left to their own devices and the teachers were at their mercies.

I have not discussed classroom discipline on this thread, so I really don't understand why you are referring to it here. This thread is about Gove's rather strange intentions to create something which already exists. It has appeared as though he is just using the subject as a smoke screen, to avoid addressing more important issues, such as school closures, building programme cancellations and budget cuts.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

And fortunately for you I am unable to give vent to what I truly think of this last paragraph and of your so called intelligence plus again you are using Labour ideology as a counter because this decision comes from a Tory government.No doubt if Labour had issued the statement you would be applauding. .I too am concerned about some of the decisions of Gove on education(primarily the con job on Academy schools) but that is for another thread.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

I am not a teacher nor have i ever given any sort of lesson in a school classroom but i know a few teachers and have two i class as very good friends and they all say the same thing and have done for a while now that the system is too heavily in favour of the child and not the teacher. I also get to see on a daily basis how things are as i live directly opposite a major secondary school and see the abuse that is thrown at teachers once the little darlings are out of the gate and off school property. I have also seen teachers hold back when fights start in the playground or near the gate because despite what some might say and think the line isn't that clear for teachers. While most of those i know are good decent people with a passion for the job they are frustrated and downhearted at how the system has changed in the last few years. All of this and i do not live in some rough inner city area so god only knows how bad it can be in those schools.

I am a tory by nature but even i don't overly trust them this time round on a raft of issues but there are problems that have to be sorted and if they can sort only some of them they will have done something. We cannot keep having it both ways you don't get to keep taking away the methods parents have for enforcing discipline on their kids and then moan when parents are not able to exert sufficient control. On that point i am a case in point my parents did and tried everything they could with me and i still went to school daily and took great pleasure in exacting as much havoc as i could every class i went too. It isn't always about the parent sometimes it is just a stubborn kid with a bad attitude that sadly only life and growing up can sort out.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11476802

Even better news.

I hope they can deliver on these promises..:erm:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

It was impressed on all of us at my secondary school that when we were in the uniform we were subject to the school's disciplinary policies. To or from school and during lunch break for those permitted to leave the school premises we were expected to behave in the same manner.

I'm surprised disheartened that this is even an issue that needs discussion.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

I can take care of that.

Rule 1. clause 1.1 sub clause 1.1.1:
If there is an unruly and disruptive little sod in your classroom, which receives no discipline at home and is allowed to run riot and thinks he/she can do the same in your class.

Give them a crack round the back of their head, then invite their parents into school and give them a slap too.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Some very reasonable threads, but, where does the labour, new labour,same old labour come from? the crash was caused by Disenvestment Bankers, mainly Goldman Sachs, didn't know they were in the Labour party, wish you people would think instead of parroting right wing party propaganda, you sound like "the Ood", Dr Who.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Exactly as in my day. In recent years, moved to a house that the local schoolkids passed on their way from the shops at lunchtime and disposed of food wrappers in our gardens. Local head: "Outside the school premises - not my concern."

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

:confused:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

lol....i don't understand the ood..showing my age i guess :D

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

The structural deficit was caused by Labour overspending on the assumption the public and private debt fuelled bubble that ended with the crash would continue forever.

Wish you'd think instead of parroting left wing party propaganda about how it's all the bankers' fault and nothing at all to do with spending taxpayers' money like it was going out of fashion on expanding the public sector, and using debt fuelled tax receipts along with sovereign debt to do it.

That's even taking account of the economic cycle being variable depending on needs.

Still if you'd like to come up with some facts to demonstrate that it's all down to the bankers please feel free. Partly for sure, entirely no chance.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

The real bad kids will never care about been kicked out of school its a holiday to them, I bet the real bad ones would learn from a swift cane around the back of the legs, I would gladly do it to some of them, back in the 1940's,50's,60's every pupil respected the teacher because if they didn't then a cane would be the result.

My dad told me he got the cane a few times but he soon learnt to do what he was told and if he was brave enough to tell his dad he woudl then get a smack from his dad.

Displine has gone, parents are to blame as displine should be tought from a young age, the child should be tought what is right and what is wrong and a punishment should be in place and kept to if the kid misbehaves.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

I think the problem is organisations are frightened of getting sued. This has meant that some organisations have introduced rules banning certain things regardless of what central government says.

It may be that this has happened with certain schools.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Punishment and restraint do NOT go hand in hand. A teacher doe not restrain a child to punish them. They restrain a child to prevent harm to the child or someone else. We used sanctions, prohibitions or exclusions, not restraint, to punish children.

You have misunderstood the post, I can see why and I apologise for not being clearer. The remark was a general one and not directed at you personally.

As you know, physical punishment was outlawed many years ago, and I suspect Gove does knows as well (or at least he should). It was outlawed for very good reasons. From what I am able to tell, Gove did not relate his
"no touching" statement to punishment at all. As I said, restraining someone is not punishing them and it should never ever be used as a punishment or a method of discipline.

I have never misunderstood what restraint means.

I do not disagree with that. All through this, all I have been saying, is that the rules do not need changing. Yes, there are some very stupid and ignorant headteachers in this country. I have met them and worked for one. But the danger here is that, to coin a phrase, "the baby is in danger of being thrown out with the bath water."

All I asked was what you meant by "physical discipline." Because I didn't understand how restraining a child could be related to punishment. Perhaps I should have worded it differently, but that is what I meant.

In my defence, if any is warranted, I had spent an hour on Friday, explaining to a very rude and aggressive parent, about why we can't beat a child who called his little **** of a son a bully. I had to explain to him that it was his son who was the bully (and I could see where got that nice little personality disorder from) and that we as a school will deal with the incident. I was annoyed at the fact that he was behaving this way towards an eight year old and just as annoyed that I was left to deal with it, seeing as it should have been the deputy head or headteacher. I am just an SSA, not a blooming security guard. I got fed up with people saying that corporal punishment should return and imagining that children today are nothing better than animals. So I am afraid, discussions of "physical discipline" was acting as a bit of a medium term bete noir, yesterday.

That is not true. I welcome clarification, but with Gove's history on "clarification," I am not holding out much hope of it getting any better. I have not discussed party politics on this thread, other than to critcise Gove's lack of understanding of the whole "no touch" subject. I really don't have any confidence in his abilty to do the job he has been tasked with. From his disasterous attempts at reforming the education system of this country, to communicating his intentions to the world of education, I truly and deeply worry about the future for our children, if he is allowed to continue in his job. This has nonthing at all to do with left versus right, Tories versus Labour, it is to do with what is right and wrong. My suspicions as to why he has raised this subject still stands. He is trying to dodge the issues about the very real and desperate state he is planning to create in our schools.

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

Yes of course, because that will really make things better. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:52 ----------

Have you two leaked from another thread. :D

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Nothing new in the above post, just a repetition of a previous stance all be with different wording.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules
 

Correct, glad you agree with me.