The Traditional Pub disappearing.
 

I was driving through Hounslow today, near where l live, and l found to my sadness so many public houses, that have closed down over recent months, and have either been turned in McDonalds, Tesco's or Polish pubs.

I think the start of the demise of these boozers was when they stopped people smoking in them, and that is when trading stopped.

Its a great shame that the British boozer is going down the plug hole - do pun intended.:(

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Too simplistic for me.

The smoking ban was one thing but for me the biggest problem is how expensive it is to drink in pubs compared to buying alcohol at home.

It's in no way right that ASDA, Tesco etc. can get away with selling alcohol cheaper than bottled water.

Personally I'd have two levels of duty on alcohol with off-sales being taxed and minimum priced to encourage responsible levels of drinking in pubs where the landlord can be partially held responsible for their patrons.

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The beginning of the end was years ago. People just don't go to the pub to socialise they way they used to and haven't done so since well before the ban. Folks would far rather stay at home where there is no need to worry about driving, they can watch what they like on the box, or play computer games or chat on the net and all this without the high price of a beer in the pub.

There are few youngsters going to the pub to have a game of darts or pool. The only card games are poker variations and dommies is considered an old persons game. The pubs are lacking up and coming regulars. Gone are the days of the older folks tutting in the corner at the youngsters making a cola last all night whilst feeding the juke box. Or taking the chalks in order to get a game of darts.

I would say Sky/Cable TV, computers, greedy pub chains and high house prices have had a far greater impact on pub trade than ever the smoking ban has.

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As far as I'm concerned, one of the main reasons I don't bother with pubs is that as a wine drinker I can buy a bottle of wine in a supermarket or off-licence for the same price, or less, than a single glass costs in a pub.

Smoking isn't the issue, for me, as a non-smoker I prefer my clothes & hair not stinking from other peoples cigarettes, so I'd have been more likely to go to a pub after the smoking ban - if only the prices of drinks weren't so high.

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I hope not.

I bought a bottle of Vodka (1 ltr) for £20 and if you work it out to 25ml units there are 40 of them which works out to 50p per measure. If you work out what it work cost a pub prices then the £20 bottle would become £80 per litre:shocked:, then I would become tee-total.:mad:

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everything is too expensive including cable tv,hopefully the now traditional tv experience will disappear:)

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I think Weatherspoons helps to kill the "tradition pubs" as well, everything will be part of a chain in the future.

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I like to try and suppot local pubs when I go out on walks in the countryside.
You can still get some good meals and meet friendly people in pubs.
We need to support them.

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Can you explain a bit more, please.

Round my way the Weatherspoon pubs serve reasonably priced food, reasonably priced drinks & do not have loud music, fruit machines, etc.

It is, therefore, possible to go with a group of friends, have a decent conversation & not spend too much money.

- what do you consider to be missing from that when compared to a 'traditional' pub?

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great reply m8;) couldnt have said it better myself

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Also something missing from pubs now I come to think of it is the public bar and the saloon bar, when I was younger it seemed almost every pub had both of these bars.
The public bar was usually a bit more spartan and the beer was a penny or two cheaper, this is where you went with your mates on a lunchtime or a friday night, the saloon bar was more like somebodies lounge, settees, comfy chairs a open fire and shock horror carpet!! This is where you went with your girlfriend or wife.:)
There were a few pubs in Brighton that even still had a snug incorporated into the public bar, usually for the ladies I believe, but all this seems long gone nowadays...I know a scattering of these old pubs do still exist out in the countryside where time has stood still but the majority have gone the same way as the pint of mild or the boilermaker, into the history books.

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I used to go to the pub to get away from children.Now all of them seem to welcome children and frankly I can't bear there being no choice.

Yes I understand that the continental system with children eating with their parents being exposed to responsible drinking is to be encouraged but I do like the old traditional pub with no kids from time to time..;)

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Funny thing is I see fewer children in pubs than I remember (except in specifically family orientated eateries). Used to go to a variety of local village pubs at 14/15, they generally has a room away from the bar where us youngsters were allowed to go. Over time these rooms have been turned into the eating area whilst the rest of the pub has been opened out. Meanwhile this integration with the youngsters has vanished with many years of clampdowns on under 18s in pubs so you have lost the next generation of pub goers.

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Yes I remember Wetherspoons refusing to serve my very obviously over 18, 21 year old bearded son with 'soft ' drinks because he had no ID to prove he was over 18 and despite my telling them that I was his mother.:rolleyes:

And the place was crawling with kids.All the local pubs are..because of food being provided.

I'd like to have the choice of no children back..

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Lived in this village for over 6 years and never been in any of the local 4 pubs..

In fact I don't think I've been in a pub in the last 5 years

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I like the newer breed of spacious, smoke free pub that serves food. I enjoy sitting down for hours on end and drinking moderate amounts alongside eating lunch/dinner. Other people do as well it seems as these continue to open while 'traditional pubs' tend to close.

This country has a stupid attitude to drink anyway. It is treated both as a sinful vice, something dangerous which at all costs must be kept away from youngsters until they 18 when it changes into the only possible way to have a good time and it is acceptable to go out and binge.

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Polish pubs? Never heard of them, please give me the details of one so I can go visit :)

The demise of the boozer is in no small part due to the price differential between drinking at home and drinking in the pub. The smoking ban may have assisted but was, imho, essential and I agreed with it while I smoked as well as now i don't.

People don't want to pay 3.25 for a beer when it'll buy a 4 pack of some stuff that'll strip paint and toast their brain cells. In no small part this is government's fault for allowing alcohol to be too cheap from the off license. That and greedy breweries of course. Ask people why they don't go to the pub, relatively few I suspect would complain about smoking, many will just say they can't or won't pay for it.

I am pleased to say that the 3 pubs in this area that I frequent, 2 chain breweries Fullers and Greene King and an independent one are alive and well :)

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

Good - alcohol is a luxury and, in any quantity past a couple of measures, a poison. Only heroin comes close in terms of harm to society in general due to its' cheapness and misuse.

---------- Post added at 09:16 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------

Weatherspoons are simply adjusting to the market. People were complaining about the price of going to the pub and Weatherspoon was smart enough to produce a chain of 'Value' pubs serving inedible food and gants urine like beer at ridiculously low prices.

They also were smart enough to adjust their pubs to requirements, quieter ones in some areas, loud and chavvy ones in others.

Their food is an absolute abomination, their drinks are fabulous in that they actually hydrate you they've so little alcohol in them, however they are what many people want - cheap excrement. They are the Tesco Value of pubs, except worse, and people love them for it.

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With me it was neither the smoke not the high price reasons for not going to the pub.. Instead it's the simple fact that we both prefer to go to a local (or for that matter jump in the car and find one further away) beauty spot, have a little picnic with a few bottles of beer/wine and enjoy our surroundings... Hard to do that in a building designed to sell you alcohol and food..

If though it's raining and we fancy a drink then it's in the house, cuddled in front of a good film on the sofa under a duvet..

If we were ever forced to go out for a drink we much prefer a decent café than a pub

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 ----------

Just asked my partner when was the last time they went in the local pubs.. The answer was 20 years ago and they were born in this village :D

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If you live near Hounslow, There are three polish pubs, one in Lampton Road by the garage, one in Bell Road, and the other one is up by the trading estate by Curry's.

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Used to live Harlington (Hayes) and then further towards Hounslow on the left of the A4(just south of Cranford park).. Is Rockys still going?? (loved their BBQ burgers)

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Sorry can't agree with these comments - I've been too a few Wetherspoon's and have always found the food to be okay - not anything special by any means but solid fair to the same "standard" as Brewers fayre, chef & brewer, Fullers etc - never had anything I would class as inedible.
They also server local real ale cheap and I can't see how the "name" lagers can be lower strength than the equivalent in other pubs?

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"traditional" pubs??????

Who wants 'em.

Nowadays if I go to a pub, I'm very choosy about where I go. They must be nice well kept places that I feel comfortable and relaxed in, do good food, and have fairly reasonably priced alchohol.

Old pubs that don't do food, have a tatty unwelcoming "public bar" side and dodgy "lounge" side deserve to go under.

Times are moving on. The "traditional" working class boozer is dying because the "traditional" working class is no more.

The working class that can afford to go out expects a bit more nowadays when they do.

And those that can't afford to go out, stay home and drink cheaper alcohol.

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Havn't been in a pub for over twenty years since i grew up went teetotal and all of them ripped you off massively for soft drinks. Sorry to be one opposing the popular view but i do think the smoking ban speeded up the killing off of many pubs and i never agreed with a total ban in the first place. Of course prices are the number one reason why they are going out of business and the trouble that many of them attract or certainly do round my way. Any of the ones in the town centre is a place to avoid at the weekends because of the fighting and general lousy atomsphere.

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I quite agree and the only people who frequent the one near where I live are alcoholics who have a pint with their full english breakfast before heading over to collect their incapacity benefit due to being an alcoholic :confused:

The ones in town seem to serve better quality food though IMO.

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The couple of times I've been there I've found the food repulsive, even relative to the Fullers and Greene King here, and the booze to be heavily watered down. It is extremely noticeable the difference in taste, and lack of, between their drinks and those from other pubs. This is why they serve the lager so cold, to hide the lack of actual lager in it. Same goes for the 'name' ales they serve.

Regarding local real ales not had the misfortune but if they treat those in the same manner they treat brand drinks I'll pass.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

What he said. Times have indeed moved on as have tastes and the 'working class' boozers are a relic of the past.

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

I live very close to Hounslow. I'll have a looksie.

By Polish pubs you do mean actual pubs rather than those which moonlight as Polish cafes during the day then morph into the standard pub in the evening? There are a few that do that though these are decreasing as the Polish are going home.

As an aside this is happening for a reason - that's where the demand is. Given more Polish smoke than British this would also appear to go against your assertion that the smoking ban is a major cause of these issues. It's a nice scapegoat but that's all it is.

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It is shame to see all the pubs gradually closing. eventually we'll have none left at all and part of the British tradition will be lost.

Only good thing I can see from it happening is that the high street won't be full of drunken idiots. they're all at home drinking cans and fighting the neighbours next door but one :)

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I haven't seen any of my quiet watering holes disappear so they must get something right.
I smoke but I don't go there to smoke, but as others have posted some places provide no end of opprtunities if someone really has to smoke.

I think a comfortable ambience shared with aquaintances and new people, a good landlord and tender along with the location is the key.
I don't care it's location or purpose.

I'd say the places I enjoy aren't going out of business - And no - they ain't all out in the sticks :D
And I question the value of "the British boozer"... because I have to agree with you. But I won't miss 'em. :)

Have you been in one?

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Mmm - perhaps I have just been lucky with 8 or 9 ones I've been in then.

Back to the original topic - Four pubs within our village when we moved their 12 years ago - now just two - and the two furthest away from where I live:dozey:

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Im not sure really, I just dont think it has the sole of a traditional pub, its a chain for me going to Wetherspoons is the same as going to Burger King or McDonald's.

There is nothing traditional about a chain, I dont want all the pubs left in the UK to have exactly the same drinks and food, thats not special its just boring.

I feel pretty much the same way about them, I always go to a local thats a bit more expensive but has a bit more life too it.

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I used to go to a lovelly boozer in Whitechapel, and that was great on a Friday and a Saturday, great old singalong, it was brilliant,

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Cor Blimey Guv'nor.

Did you put on your shiny pearly suit, before heading down the apples and pears?

Chim chimney, chim chimney, chim, chim cheroo.......................................

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We had things then we don't have now........


You know, like outside loos, diptheria, polio, doodlebugs, high child mortality rates......

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Oh gawd did you have to mention polio!!!! Sorry but it brings back memories when I joined the RAF and being given a polio vaccination... In the mouth it went and it wasn't on a cube of sugar :( :cry:

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During the war my grandad use to say there was no point going in the air raid shelter, he'd say "if a bombs got your name on it, it's got your name on it"

This didn't bring much comfort to our neighbours Mr & Mrs doodlebug.

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I think the rot set in when the breweries realised that they were sitting on a lot of valuable town centre real estate. In recent years they've pushed up the rental to landlords supposedly to reflect the value of the freehold premises. The end result has been many traditional pubs struggling to turn a profit.

Once you factor in the high 'tied' beer prices it's been impossible for many of them to find money to upgrade or even to maintain an acceptable standard.

They've been forced to price themselves out of business.

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When I went to Cornwall, we went to a very traditional pub and it over 200 years old. we had a meal there, generous portions and killer cider called "Cornish Rattler"

"The Bucket of blood"

http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/img188.htm

http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs...Blood/Phillack

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The are still many ordinary pubs around Liverpool plus the are many of the new Food pubs as well, but many of the Food pubs still cater for drinkers and have a bar area with darts and pool tables.

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Very true!

In Prescot which is where I reside most of the time, there are 11 traditional pubs within a 2 mile radius one wine bar and that suits me. Anymore and it would be like city centre.

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Where we've just stayed in Hastings, there are 46 pubs, bars etc within one mile of our cottage. Had to create a list of priorities - review saying "not too many fights here", real ale, home made food, live music. Plenty of choice. Going back as soon as possible.

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I guess Hounslow is suffering more than most. Something to do with it being an excrement hole perhaps :)

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Having worked in Pub's years ago i find it sad that traditional pub's are closing, the estate i live on used to have 4 pub's within a 15 minute walk of my house but all of them are now gone,

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Having worked in pubs/bars many years ago I think I can safely say that I'd rather be the other side of the bar :D
And in my home town centre: I'd rather find somewhere else for a chat and a drink :(

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I really annoys me that people assume that everyone who buys alcohol in a supermarket is some sort of rampaging drunk who should be taxed to hell.

Two things killed pubs - the insanely high prices they charge, and the smoking ban. People just find its too expensive and too much hassle these days.

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I reckon the only thing that keeps my husband going to the local is that he can watch the football because he's too mean to buy the sky packages.:D

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It's been the case for a long time that the average local will only survive on the strength of it's food offering. The smoking ban aside it also seems that less and less families are eating out so in many cases the writing is on the wall.

We have this lovely old thatched pub close by called the Holly Bush in Little Leigh which is one of the oldest pubs in the country: the bar is no more than a little counter and hole in the wall. A few years ago it was refurbished, modernised and transformed into a food oriented pub but in the process lost much of it's character so either way you can't win.

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Its just occurred to me Gary why so many pubs have been closing down....its all the fault of the "Muslims", if they were to get Brahms and Liszt a few nights a week then trade would be booming.;)

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Not taxed to hell. I enjoy picking up a few crates of lager and a bottle or so of spirits as much as the next man. Unless the next man is Gazza of course :erm:

That said there is a world of difference between sensibly priced alcohol and the utter gutrot that gets sold at ridiculous prices to the people who solely want to get out their minds on drink.

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Sounds like just another Friday night in Glasgow.

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There is also the fact that whilst "traditional" pubs may be disappearing, other drinking establishments are opening.

For instance, in Leeds city centre in the late 80s, there were about eight traditional pubs and a couple of wine bars - now there are over fifty places you can go for a drink (bars, wine bars, cocktail bars, places like Revolution and Tiger Tiger - and I'm not including all the restaurants that have opened over the same period).

In Headingley, there used to be six pubs; those pubs are still open, and another five or six bars have opened.

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Headingley does have the advantage of university campuses on either side plus Rugby & cricket to keep the punters rolling on. Nothing like students desperate to get out of their dungy accom to keep the money rolling on (from first hand experience of my daughter being there at the moment :dozey:)

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Part of the reason the prices are considered insanely high is the loss leading prices the supermarkets charge.

I would hope no-one assumes people who buy alcohol in supermarket are by default rampaging drunks however there is no justification at all for the supermarkets offering alcohol, usually of a moderate-high ABV, in large quantities at loss making prices.

There's a lot of difference between getting a 4 pack or some wine or a bottle of something stronger in and getting trays of cheap slightly flavoured diluted ethanol in to get smashed. A minimum price per unit of alcohol can be arranged to ensure minimal impact on the first while disincentivising the second.

Alcohol is a poison that kills people and costs society immensely in many ways. I'm not a fan of taxation in any shape or form but alcohol is something that should be punitively taxed to ensure a minimum price per unit. The current taxation scheme doesn't cut it.

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Odd thing is, the countries charging the most for alcohol also have the highest rates of alcoholism :shrug:

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I think that's usually indicative of an attempt to solve the problem, not the probable cause.

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Agreed. The problems the pubs have with the supermarkets are the same that a lot of other shops have with the supermarkets. That problem is that the supermarkets know that we are going to need to buy food. As such, they have a guaranteed money maker. The likes of Tesco and Sainsburys also have enough buying power that to a large extent, they can dictate prices that their suppliers charge. Even to the point where those suppliers take a *loss* on each item sold.

These two combine to mean that they can drop prices on other products (such as Alcohol) to below the point where it is profitable for any competitor. This is extremely bad for the economy (unless you seriously think we should all end up working for supermarkets).

I like a drink. I even occassionally buy Alcohol from my local Sainsburys. Usually if I am on the way to a friend's for a barbecue or other party. However, I do have concerns about the cheap availability of Alcohol in supermarkets. Why?

Two reasons. First, supermarkets often aren't as thorough in their checking of underage drinkers (at least around my area).

Second, if you drink too much in a pub and are obviously too drunk, a lot of publicans will ask you to leave. I have seen this happen many times in my various visits to pubs. If you buy a crate of some random strong lager at supermarket, down every single can and pass out in a puddle of your own vomit, no one is going to stop you. There is also the problem of what the long term effects on your body of drinking that amount are.

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Good points Stuart ,to pick up on your second point ,do you think it feasible to force supermarkets or indeed other chains such as Booze Busters ect to limit the amount of alcohol sold to one person as happens with paracetamol for example

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The paracetamol system is as effective as a chocolate stair gate. In as much as the purchase of booze can be spread amongst many suppliers. So no help there and given that registered alcoholics get money towards drink, increasing the cost will just increase the amount of benefit they will need.

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The thing with the Paracetamol issue is that it takes longer to get the means to kill yourself and it costs more because of the packaging(16 tabs,foil and blister packaging plus cardboard box compared to 100 tabs in brown bottle the cost went up 3 fold).

So doing the same for alcohol won't stop the problems straight out, just make it harder and take longer..

At the time I was annoyed because I was penalised even though I was a responsible user of the product.If the same thing happens with alcohol I will be just as incensed because I am a responsible drinker.

What we need is for parents,educators and society to step up and do the right thing.To really smack down hard on those that sell to the underage,those that buy for the underage and to parents who don't parent their teenagers for underage drinking and are lousy examples to their children about binge drinking and above all don't check where their children are when out of sight.

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Restricting paracetamol doesn't prevent someone from committing suicide if that's what they really want to do, but then it was never really intended to do that.

It was supposed to put large bottles of the stuff out of the reach of angsty emo teenagers who were liable to down a handful without truly weighing up the chances of it really, actually killing them.

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Especially when the restriction is above the 30 tablets threshold which will cause permenant liver damage (and that's for a healthy person)..

I don't think though you can compare long term abuse with short term overdoses though..

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In one word 'Atmosphere'

Wetherspoons lacks it, also my local Wetherspoons as others I have visited have the worst service of any pub I have visited. A few times I have walked in,waited for 5 mins and then walked out and gone to my local. The ratio of staff serving to customer is high, but the efficiency/time serving is very poor.

At least I never wait long in my local, because if there is a queue I have the owners blessing to go behind the bar and serve myself. I do this when they are busy, leaving the money behind the bar for the drink/drinks.

ps. I never drink at home, and to be honest I'm not a big boozer at the pub. Sometimes when I'm away early Saturday morning on my motorbike, I go on a Friday night and drink coke or a few shandy just to have a chat with my mates.

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Good point about 'atmosphere', but it often means different things to different people. Personally, I prefer a pub to be cosy & warm, but quiet enough to hold a conversation.

You are lucky to have the kind of relationship you have with your local, it sounds ideal.

Unfortunately, as I said previously, price wise I have the choice of £3 to drink a bottle of wine at home, or £3.50 to drink one glass in the pub.

- hence I tend to drink only at home.

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I almost always pop into my local on a Wednesday evening, I have 2-3 drinks and a quiet chat with the 'Old Gits' (OK, I'm getting to be one now)

On the weekend my local has Karaoke on Friday and a DJ on Saturday, it's obviously not quiet but I don't think it's any more noisy than all the people in Wetherspoons talking loudly.

I doubt I'm not the only one to notice how loud you have to shout in Wetherspoons to hold a conversation.