Where's the money been found.
 

It really angers me, when this country is being forced to suffer more cutbacks, loss of jobs as there is no money left in the kitty.

The Government has decided to increase its fund to the Pakistan floods.
Where is this money coming from, when you go into supermarkets there are buckets asking for donations, which l glady put money in to help.

But l want to know where is this extra millions coming from.

Don't get me wrong, l feel really sad for the flood victims, and l offer donations, but is a kick in the teeth, when the government give even more millions, when its claimed we don't have the funds, to cover important projects in this country.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

At a guess from the existing foreign aid budget.

Either way it's 70 million quid which is a drop in the ocean to be honest.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

No matter how hard the cut backs may be in this country, I doubt anyone will be suffering on a scale of those in the Pakistan flood region.

The money no-doubt will already be in a foreign disaster aid budget alreadey accounted for, so don't worry alf.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Why not just give all our money away as there is always someone else worse off?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

:rolleyes:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Because then we wouldn't be in a position to keep the country running and make more money to give away in future.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

They already have a few million from us already, so why add to it, all over the world there are disasters, and like the great nation we are, we are always offering money to these countries.

But to me it is like a kick in the nuts, when WE are told about cutbacks and the fear of jobs cuts etc, and we have been told what we have to shelve as there isn't any money there, the government come up with this further donation, this is the second donation we have made, doesn't make sense.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

IIRC foreign aid was one of the things that were 'ring fenced'. So the money had already been stuffed away in a mattress for a 'rainy day'. No joke intended.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Nice pun there.....sick.....but nice!! :)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Well noticed that man. I thought no-one had spotted it :angel:

---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 13:22 ----------

The deficit is structural. Labour spent too much that they couldn't fund, both as part of a wider public sector expansion and to take up some slack from recession. The cutbacks are only to about 2005-6 level, why is this so hard to comprehend?

What is the fundamental malfunction? The size of the public sector goes down as well as up, one cannot simply endlessly expand the public sector until we have 2 people waiting to wipe the arse of each person in the private sector. It's too big, too inefficient, and either it shrinks or our taxes go up and the private sector is crowded out.

If you are socialist minded just say so. The socialist point of view made this mess, the centrist one will get us out.

Either way it's nothing at all to do with the foreign aid budget, which per previous had already been accounted for and is not a huge amount of money next to the deficit that is being tackled.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/09/45.jpg

;)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

There is money in the kitty, the cutbacks are *ideological ones*, in order to reduce taxes for the rich. The clue is in the words 'Conservative Party'.

Aid for Pakistan, apart from being morally correct, is peanuts compared both to the wealth of the UK *and* the actual need on the ground in Pakistan.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

So, that's the emerging Lefty strategy for spinning against the cuts, is it?

Don't suppose I should be surprised.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

70 million from a ring fenced budget is completely irrelevent to the cuts that are coming because of the last governments incompetence. I really do laugh my head off at all the socialists now running around making the coalition out to be this evil thing intent on doing total harm and damage to the lower end of society in this country it's pathetic to be honest remember who put us in the mess in the first place. Arthur if you are going to keep getting worked up over nothing stories can i suggest for the sake of your health that you stop buying the red tops. Must be a slow news day if this is the best anyone has to get worked up about but never mind the amnesiac socialists will be able to go completely nuts soon so all will be well with the world :rolleyes:.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I guess Labour's deficit reduction plan was ideological as well? The clue presumably being in the words 'Labour Party'.

I don't think anyone is talking about reducing taxes right now. The deficit reduces the state to a level where it will be supported by current tax levels, not much room for wholesale tax cuts for a while, bills to pay.

The 1990s called, they want their anti-Tory leftist rhetoric back.

Of course, if you have some basis for this it'd be good to see and I'd be quite happily to apologise wholeheartedly.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

What you mean the nasty, evil, party the LibDems are in a coalition government with and, last time I heard, are backing the cutbacks?
:confused: :rolleyes:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

As I remember they remained against it. Then they saw the 'books' and opinions changed.

Given the cuts are happening to apparently give tax cuts to the rich it does seem rather odd that they are accompanied by tax increases across the board and an income tax cut at the lower end of the scale.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Yes that was/is the claim, which would sort of back up the Tory position on the gravity of the financial mess Bliar's cohorts got us into and hence the need for cuts of the magnitude we're facing.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Chris

Excellent :)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I must admit, I have to kind of agree where Arthur is coming from on this.

Having recently had my income / expenditure gone through with a fine tooth comb and had to make cuts myself, you have to ask, when the country is in the dire straights that we kept being told it is... Why are we not cutting stuff like this to look after local jobs / projects?

Should charity not begin at home, should we not get our own house in order before attending to others? As harsh as that sounds, I do feel we should be taking this stance rather than trying to be the nice guy all the time.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Per previous this isn't some decimation of the public sector, reducing it to running the entire state on a shoe string over a period of a couple of months, it's reducing spending to the percentage of the country's productivity it was in the middle of the last decade over a period of five years.

Again - this is small change - the scale of cuts required to correct the government's overspend is enormous. This budget is ring fenced and already accounted for. There is no need for us to stop sharing some small part of our prosperity with the rest of the world so that we can continue to mortgage our children to gorge ourselves on an unsustainable state.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I wish I had 70 million in small change. ;)

There are plenty of charities in this country that would love a slice of 70 Million. Time we started looking a little closer to home instead of the rest of the world all the time.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Yes, I get the point you are making. But as Paul M has pointed out, £70M is not small change, certainly not in my book anyway.

IF the money is to go to charity, it should be one in this country at least.

At the end of the day, when cuts have to be made in *my* budget I am sorry to have to say that charitable donations are the first to go.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...est-world.html

This is the most recent link I can find..Seeing as Arthur yet again failed to do so..this is the only article I can find that mentions £70 million though at one point it starts as £60 million.

Me thinks that Arthur isn't as naive as he tries to make out..as yet again he posts (without linking) in outrage about an issue and then barely makes any further contribution to the debate.

A sort of light blue touch paper and retire sort of debate.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I am ignoring the political impact of these donations by the way. There is, of course, a less altruistic reason behind these increases. Foreign policy is like PR, and when a company is struggling for cash PR is most certainly not the first thing that gets cut.

Having Pakistan on side makes sense for many, many reasons within the current climate.

Make any more sense now?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

...very likely to be undone if the current cricket crisis escalates :dozey:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Anything to do with cricket backhanders? ;)

Too slow there wasn't I Pog66?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

International aid is rarely done for totally genuine reasons and more often then not has strings attached so that it is worth our time and money awarding aid. Seriously no country is that good it gives out money for nothing anymore then we as individuals do if we give them even 200 million you can bet your house we know we will get more then that back in oneway or another.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Like when we donated £234m to Malaysia to build a dam, with only one string attached - they bought their military equipment from the UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-1402036.html

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

It makes sense. But god help us if we ever got into trouble, because I would not bet any of my hard earned on Pakistan helping us out in return.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I believe at the end of the day these appeals will only cost £5 to £10 a year, per person, which is nothing really.

Think that you have help someone get clean water and some food in their stomach.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

It's not about that, it's about keeping them as 'on side' as possible due to the presence of the Taliban within the country, along with the presence of nuclear weapons and the strong likelihood that various high ranking bits of Al Qaeda are there.

It's far easier to do what needs to be done if they support or at least don't obstruct it.

If we get into trouble we allegedly have the rest of Europe and NATO to assist.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

So, like giving the school bully your lunch money then, no?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Look the more happy that people are living in their country of origin the more unlikely that they want to come and live in your 'hood..

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Sorry Maggy, that was how it came across to me.

Not give 'em money and they won't come over here to our 'hood.

Surely you did not mean that they would come over and take our jobs, houses and women as well if we did not stump up the money? ;)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

No what I'm saying is happy people tend to stay put where they are happy..

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

No nothing like that at all.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Well that told me then. Care to expand then rather than dismiss my point out of hand?

Whilst i respect you opinion, saying -

To me, sounds rather like, in my experience anyway -

If you give me your lunch money, if anyone else in the playground gives you bother, i'll sort it.

But hey, what do i know, i'm just a divvy lurker.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

No it's more like if you give the smelly tramp a quid to bugger off and leave you alone.:rolleyes:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Well firstly no-one asked for the 'lunch money' so that part of the analogy is incorrect.

Secondly it's not the 'bully' getting paid off. If anything we're the bully in the whole affair and want to keep them friendly to make it easier to do so. We're going into their sovereign airspace not the other way around.

Lastly it's about foreign relations not bribery. It's a 'hearts and minds' thing rather than paying someone off. Getting the people of Pakistan's support is important given the religious connections to the Taliban.

We have nothing to fear from Pakistan, they have no delivery system for nuclear weapons which could reach us in a timely fashion and they wouldn't dare anyway, their country would become a big plate of glass quite rapidly if they did so. Their co-operation simply makes it far easier to get at the Taliban hiding within Pakistan, and cementing public opinion weakens the Taliban power base and reduces the chance of those nuts getting their mitts on Pakistan's nuclear weaponry.

Receiving aid from the infidel West is important when the Taliban and AQ are preaching anti-Western hatred. Zero duress on our side - you make it sound like international extortion which it certainly isn't. It's influencing people in another country, you know, foreign relations, nothing more.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

so it's blackmail then?

Foriegn aid should proprtional to our own financial needs ,we have enough people suffering hardship in this country to look after ,many of which are expats from pakistan ,not to mention all the other immigrants we take in and fund ,so it's not like we don't already do enough .In a few weeks if there is another disaster do we stump up another 100million and then another a few weeks after that ?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Thanks, I think it was just the way your post read made it sound that way.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Glad I'm not you then.:mad:

I may not be a Christian but I believe in that phrase of 'do unto others as you would be done by'.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Maggie we don't have a bottomless pit of money to give away we have our own social and economic problems to deal with with less money to play with ,so something has to give and less foriegn aid is a start

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Rolling public services back to where they were in 2003 - 2005 is hardly comparable to many things our foreign aid finances.

Noteworthy also is that the foreign aid can and does yield returns of its' own - aid is a very regularly used diplomatic tool.

Nick Clegg puts it better than me.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Yes appreciate that foriegn aid does reap some rewards for us financially ,that is why i said less aid and not no aid

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

£70 million won't plug or solve any of our current problems.It won't even keep the NHS running.It is simply peanuts compared alongside what we owe.

And compared to what Pakistan needs it's not even a plaster.

Maybe you should re-read the Widow's Mite parable again while you are about it..

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Tell that to the people who aren't getting their council houses updated as promised in tyneside because 50million has been removed from the budget .There are 5 blocks of flats which are probably going to have be pulled down in cruddas park because the LA has run out of money because a private invester has pulled out ,70million would complete the project and pride some much needed housing in my area.

just to add ,i think it is absolutley ridiculous comparing the nhs budget to the 70million we are sending over to Pakistan .70 million is a drop in the ocean compared to the nhs budget or the welfare budget ..but it is a very large amount to some LA's and should not be dismissed as a poultry sum

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

So - should we update some LA houses, or help prevent starvation and the spread of deadly diseases?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I could also say it to all those children who were expecting their schools to be rebuilt this year but now will be continuing to be taught in substandard schools.However £70 million won't cover those costs either.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Or possibly use it to house some of our own homeless .Just to make it clear i am not advocating a complete stop to foriegn aid just a measured reduction

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I get the feeling not many will agree but I dont mind having my say even if it isn't agreed with. Rather than people talking about what we may or may not get out of it, as a tax payer personally I dont mind aid money being given like this. I understand the charity begins at home comments but you can hardly compare council houses that need revamping to families living like this

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/09/39.jpg

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/09/40.jpg

There are kids living in that. Wheres the humanity? Personally I dont give two hoots if we get some trade agreement or any agreement to do with terrorists in return for the aid money. We are all human beings. Forget the money issues, if one of your family were over there living in that would you have the same view?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

:clap:

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

How measured?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

My argument isn't about not giving aid ,it's about ringfencing it so the budget can't be touched .We have plenty of people suffering hardship in this country ,people who are losing their homes/jobs through no fault of their own ,budgets to help these people is being cut why can't the budget to help people abroard?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

As I said I dont see how anyone can compare our own issues to those faced over there. I wasnt just commenting about you, it was aimed at anyone who questions aid money being spent like this. I used the council house thing as that was the most recent post about it all. Im sure £70/60 million isn't going to sort all the issues out so how do you set where the cap is? How do we know if they havent spent as much, maybe in the past more aid would have been given?

Personally I wouldnt be bothered if giving the aid money meant I had to pay a few quid more in tax regardless of our own issues. Now I'll leave it there, I try not to do many serious threads so Im off to chat about Donkeys :)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Me say what he say. And if it angers Arthur then it has to be the right thing to do ;)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

What they said. Somewhat surprised no-one has noted my ongoing philosophy of posts in this forum and the 'apparent' contradiction. I say apparent because there isn't one really :)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

This is one of those threads where i feel that both arguments are correct ,giving aid is of course the right thing to do ,but how much and how often ? I am sure that there are people on this forum who give to charities on a regular basis maybe through DD from a bank .I am also sure that those same people look at their finances from month to month and say "i can't afford it this month my kids need new shoes" and either stop it or cut back ,the same principle applies in government imo

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I may have to count the pennies but so what if I eat less chocolate/sweets/fruit because I put a couple of quid in the Oxfam box for Pakistan flood victims when I was passing the Oxfam shop yesterday.

How can we not give.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Are we human, or are we dancers?

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Maggie i have not said we shouldn't give ,i have said we shouldn't ringfence the budget so it is untouchable At the moment i believe the DFIDs' budget is somewhere between 7-9 billion ,a not inconsiderable sum of money some of which i feel could be redirected back home to either help pay of our loans thus ensuring further aid in years to come or taking the sting out of the present round of cutbacks ,this would also have the side effect of lessening the public outrage at suffering cutbacks whilst giving billions away

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

But even 9 billion isn't going to plug any of the holes in the dyke.:erm:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

oh come on Maggie even if the budget was to be cut by a third (not unreasonable i think)then 3 billion would be back in the uk economy ,meaning those much needed new schools (to use your example)would be built ,and as i said ,much less outrage from the public

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

There isn't that much outrage that I've known regarding foreign aid. Copious amounts, largely encouraged by unions and Labour for political reasons over cuts but not a massive amount over foreign aid.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

How would anybody know? if any illfeeling is reported in the press it would be dismissed as media hype ,if a poll was done it would be dismissed as using leading questions ,If people admit to wanting the aid cut they would be dismissed as uncaring .There seems to be plenty of outrage amongst the working classes that i know ,but nobody bothers to ask them

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Funny, I understood that 'working classes' have a vote and an MP too, same as us middle class types.

Are we getting into class war here? We really don't want to do that especially about financial related things ;)

Easy as it is to see things as black and white there are a ton of shades of grey with things like this. Some of my own family are outraged about many things, this being one of them, which is why I as a general rule avoid discussing politics with them ;)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Not that I want to be pedantic*, but if you are referring to The Killers I think you'll find the lyric is "Are we human or are we dancer?" (singular)which is wonderfully ambiguous.

*well, maybe just a little bit

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Marty while i understand your point you have to realise that whatever money we give away we usually do so in the safe and certain knowledge that the benefits usually financial as well will more then compensate. Foreign aid is such a bad title for what the money is used for and does for this country and that is why the budget was ring fenced because part of us getting the country back on an even keel like it or not will be improved trade and dealings with foreign nations. I am not rolling in it but compared to those poor sods in pakistan right now i am and having the life of reily so if we can help we should it is the human thing to do and on top of that trust me our government will already have worked out how we will ultimately profit from this supposed act of kindness.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I heard a statistic on The BBC news this morning that may put this into perspective.

The government SAVES £87 billion on not paying carers.That is NOT a cutback.It's money that just isn't given to carers because they take on the burden instead.If they didn't the government would have to find that sum..

Think about that..

Makes Arthur's figure of £70 million pale into insignificance.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

It was stated in The Daily Star today, that the government has announced a 500 million grant for aid in Africa, what the hell is going on here, we are making sacrifices and this is being forced on us, yet they can find yet more money for another country.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Africa is a continent Arthur.

See previous comments regarding budgets, etc, for more information. Already paid for.

If you're reading the Daily Star it does explain a few things though.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I linked to the DS (oh, I feel so used now......:D) - you missed out the bit about it being to combat malaria, Arthur.

Anyhoo, here's the ToryGraph's take on it....And it is from the ring-fenced budget.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Indeed, it's entirely possible that if we didn't give them the £70 million (which, while it is a lot of money, is a tiny amount relatively speaking), the Taliban would then go in and use the fact that we ignored the problems in Pakistan (regardless of whether we are or not, it would be presented that way by the Taliban, so that would be the perception) as ammunition in any future recruitment drives.

The costs as a result of that could be far greater than 70 million.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Sorry but if the daily star or as i like to call it "the make it up as we go along rag" is the basis for any opinion then that opinion is devalued because clearly no real research has been done into any given subject.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I don't care, we should not send that amount of money to a country, when we are suffering also.llWe are being told that we have to make cutbacks due to money that has been spent in this country, an yet they can send that amount of money abroad, they can quite easily stop or half that amount to put back into the economy, as an old motto is 'whats good for the goose, is good for the ganda"

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I think those three words sum it all up.

You don't see the bigger picture, which would show that there is some self-interest in this from our side as well, nor do you see the humanitarian side.

On the humanitarian side of the discussion I frankly am disgusted and flabbergasted that you equate the cuts in our public services, which are required even if this aid were put back in as the deficits are structural not one-off, with the suffering and death this aid will alleviate in Africa. Oh no we'll have to pay a touch more tax and services will have to go back to where they were in 2003-5, clearly comparable to a slow painful death from Malaria, watching children die and be orphaned.

:mad:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I agree with all else you're saying, but just picking up on the point above (as I wondered about it before): what does that mean exactly? The same level of service as in 2003-2005, or spending just as much money as we did back then. If it's the latter it makes the statement a rather pointless euphemism, as it means a severe cut in actual service levels after inflation correction.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Spending as much as a % of GDP - so inflation irrelevant.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Ok. That's fair enough (and does suggest spending as a % of GDP has increased quite a lot over the last 6-7 years). Mind you, UK spending as a % of GDP isn't particularly high traditionally.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Sadly it is high relative to the tax intake, that's the rub.

Historically it has been high though not so much recently. Remains high relative to Canada, USA, Australia, etc, nations we've more in common with than Europe to be honest.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

All very interesting, but probably better reserved for a thread that's not about foreign aid. Ta for the answer :)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

My entire point is this, I feel very sad for countries that need humantarian aid, where you see children dying every minute to due sickness, but there are other countries in the world, that can supply financial aid.

BUT it was stated that food aid going to some countries was being hijached and being sold on the black market.

We already supply millions of pounds each year in aid, what l am saying is that, if this country is making cutbacks and WE are facing losing our jobs, then surely they can reduce this amount of money, being given away.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I'm not sure we are as poor as you are making out. For example, on average, each household in Britain spends (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...ending2009.pdf):

£10 per week on booze and fags
£52 per week on recreation and culture
£29 per week on restaurants and hotels

Isn't it worth cutting back a bit on some of the above, and helping out families who are living in the open without food or fresh water? Or children dying from malaria?

Think about it the next time you have a take away fish and chips.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I wish!!! :(

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Presumably you're not average. ;)

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

That's about what I spend on my weekly shopping..

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

£52.50 per week for food and non-alcoholic drinks.

Actually, for Expenditure of one man one woman non-retired households (or am I being presumptuous?) the figures are:


4 Housing (net), fuel & power £52.80

5 Household goods & services £26.90

6 Health £7.40
7 Transport £64.90
8 Communication £12.80
9 Recreation & culture £53.80
10 Education [£1.30]
11 Restaurants & hotels £26.90

12 Miscellaneous goods & services £28.80

Which comes to a total of £415.70 per week.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

I wish! Stick a 3 in front of that and you're getting there :(

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Per week?

---------- Post added at 22:00 ---------- Previous post was at 21:57 ----------

How weird is that! Imagine spending more on clothes and shoes than on booze fags and dope! Some people have their priorities severely mixed up...

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Yes, I'm in London, enough said.

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Oh. I didn't realise leccy and gas were more expensive in London. :shrug:

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Re: Where's the money been found.
 

Something is seriously screwy about those figures if they include rent/mortage. £50 odd per week for housing, fuel and power v. £65 on transport? I think not, unless you're mortgage free.

£50 per week sounds more like council tax, gas and leccy. There's no way that includes housing.