Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I am a father of three children and three grandchildren, l am religious, but l was saddened and rather angry at a loss of life of a 15 year old, reported in todays The Sun.

Being a Jehovah Witness, he decided to die rather than have a blood transfusion, even though there is a blood sub for this religion, but he declined and gave his life for the sake of his belief.

God created heaven and earth, and where does it say in the Bible bans blood transfusions and that life is a gift from God, too me God would not like to see life given up at a young life - any comments.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

personally I dont class 15 as old enough to make that decision but I dont know how these things work

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I know why they think its an obligation (that is, I know which single verse out of the entire Bible the Watchtower Society uses to justify the doctrine) and I think it's a load of old cobblers. One of the many aspects of the 'faith' promulgated by the Watchtower Society that means it attracts its well-deserved definition as a cult.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

:clap:

Looks like we agree on that subject.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Given that nowadays and even more so in the past there are diseases etc that can be transmitted via a blood transfusion and so, the basis is not so daft. Modern science has moved things on, but it is still their choice.

They are many other completely baseless and often irrational decisions, especially surrounding issues of child bearing/birth. I don't suppose that the people who would criticise this decision would be so forward in criticising those decisions.

Do all beliefs have to originate from the Bible?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-exercise.html

i would say both died because of what they loved

not taking blood rarely leads to death but it is a risk that those of us with this faith take its something that we rarely think about as it is far more likely that some other unforeseen circumstance will kill us than the lack of blood !

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Christian-based ones tend to :D

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Are there not some which have come from the church for which it is difficult to find biblical references for? I genuinely think there are but now I can't think of any..:dunce:

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Depends on who you are calling "the church" but some good ones in Catholicism are:

a) Purgatory, the spiritual "cargo area" for those not yet good enough to enter heaven.

b) Confession of sin requires a priest to be present

Neither have any biblical basis. There are plenty more but off-topic and all etc

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

The inference was, that because it was claimed that there was no biblical basis for the doctrine, it was therefore a cult and not a religion.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

So by the same token perhaps Catholicism is also a cult? :D Who'da thunk it...

Anyway this is dangerously off-topic.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

All I can say is that I have respect for this lad ultimately 'keeping his faith'.

But I also question a faith that demands such a sacrifice - especially when, as Arthur points out, there are 'blood substitutes' available that may have saved the boy's life.

- and I also wonder whether the 'eating' blood taboo that seems to be at the core of the prohibition does actually apply to a transplant?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

He wouldn't have believed it was a sacrifice though. After the rest of us "non-believers" get slaughtered by their "loving" god, he'd have believed he'd be back.
That's one thing you have to say about the JW's, they don't try to hide the dark side of christian scripture.

As for other non-blood products, I don't know if emergency rooms carry any. I know they can be brought in for planned operations, similarly with blood cleaning machines to return blood lost, and some will take plasma, however depending on his level of brainwa-sorry, faith, it looks like if they were options available, he wasn't willing to take them.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

For one JWs are not classed as a cult at all so on this one Chris you get the well deserved definition of wrong lol

As Arther says there is a blood substitute and there is also a hospital liaison committee that works with the hospital to get the treatment required

What about all the hemophiliacs who developed HIV from blood transfusions?

I have to admit that as a none practicing JW I would have to admit I would be a hippocrite to my faith is it came down to a blood transfusion for my daughter but luckily her mother has never been a JW so she can make the decision( but if there was no time and it was down to me I would want her saving)

The blood issue is missunderstood by those who choose to hate JWs for what ever reason they wish.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Shame he won't be around to hear it :(

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I am a bit hazzy on the scripture but I believe the life blood should flow back to the ground. Once the blood has flown you can do what is required I do not know if transplants are allowed however

---------- Post added at 00:17 ---------- Previous post was at 00:16 ----------

my local hospital does and has a very good relationship with the JWs including a very good blood free surgeon who is very careful with the knife instead the slash through normal surgeons

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Good.
Many JWs I know would not take anything though.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

see I do not understand that . All the information is readily available through the Watchtower society there is paperwork on the subject. The organisation should basically be uniform and follow the same beliefs and rules

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

That is true, Dan, in my opinion it was a waste of such fervour - but only because I don't understand how his faith could be so important to him that he abdicated his mortality for his belief, I cannot conclude from that he was 'wrong', only 'misguided' - which is relative to my beliefs, not his?

---------- Post added at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------

agreed :)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

It's a faith thing, especially if someone is driven by the belief they will meet up with a lost loved one, or a healed infirm loved one if they are a "good" JW.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

there are blood substitutes that all JW's i know would take and some are better in some circumstances

see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitutes

not that is why we choose not to take blood though
as to scriptural reason see
(Acts 15:28, 29; Genesis 9:4)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

If this lad had been part of your group he might still be alive then.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Scripture links not working by the way.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

acts

28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

genesis

4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

both taken from
(New International Version)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

ok, question for you. Is knowledge a gift from god?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

no else learning would be pointless ;)

we have learned how to destroy our planet should we use that on the basis of we learn because of a gift from god ?

there are very few instructions in the bible but one is to abstain from blood and that is still a choice for one to make oneself as we have free will he chose to follow his belief as he loved following his god just as this boy ( see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-exercise.html ) loved doing what he did i presume

neither did so with the desire to die but both made a choice that had that outcome and both had an equal right to do so

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

However reading the quotes above it is evident that the intention is to refer to the consumption of blood, since Acts encapsulates it within the context of foods, Genesis within the context of an accounting for unnecessary bloodshed. Neither refer to the use of blood to heal. Even within the bible there is reference to using parts of one body in another, Eve was created from the rib of Adam.
I fail to see the prohibition of blood freely given that another may live as anything other than an extension of the Good Samaritan giving of himself to aid someone in need.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Personally I find this almost impossible to understand, irrespective of some very subjective phrase written in a book over two thousand years ago what about his parents? where were they when their fifteen year old son was effectively committing suicide?
Whatever your beliefs are if it comes to a situation where one of your children who is dying, can be saved by something as simple as a blood transfusion and those parents sit back and allow their child to die...well words fail me..

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

i am not asking you to see it he did though

but for the sake of argument ;) if we are going to say it doesnt mention medical treatment ( no blood transfusions we know of back then )

If a Dr told you drinking any more alcohol will kill you do you think feeding it into your self intravenously would negate that warning ?

and as to to what god did that's up to him he makes the rules ;)

and i still see no difference in this brave lad doing as he wanted to do and the lad whop died on that ship

we may not have done what either did but both have the right live their lives as they wish and i expect with the full knowledge of why they wanted to

for do not think this boy wouldn't have known about the view of others on blood we spend a lot of time learning about what others believe to be able to defend our belief and are taught to question everything one of my favorite books we have is titled "Make sure of all things"

---------- Post added at 02:52 ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 ----------

he is of an age that the law allows him to make this judgment if the parent were forcing this choice on him then others would complain on that too

should i stop my kids crossing roads, swimming in the sea, working on a building site, driving cars or going to war zone?

my extended family have lost members to all of those things all a lot more common things for a JW to die from than the blood issue

one picks a course in life and tries to stick to your principles i admire any that stick to what they believe rather than just changing tack because the going gets tough

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Agreed, I am just hpothesising on the matter in hand

There is a small yet significant difference, Alcohol is effectively a poison which affects the oxygenation of the blood leading to feelings of euphoria. Blood is a necessary part of the human body.
The discussion is over replacing a necessary oxygenating substance which is completely natural to the body, not administering alcohol.

There is a significant difference. The lad on the ship died despite all attempts to save him, this one's death could perhaps have been prevented by medical treatment he declined to have.

Jesus asked the Pharisees, "Which of you shall have an donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not go to pull him out on the sabbath day?" (Luke 14:5) The difference in Jesus example is that a life is being saved, even if it is only the life of an animal. To administer a blood transfusion to save a life is to endorse, or sustain, the preeminent value, which is life itself. The priority of the law is the sanctity of life. Jesus even used the example of David to prove this principle. David was permitted to eat the showbread, belonging only to the priest, in his time of need, he was not punished. (1 Sam. 21:6). The Bible's principle Jesus made clear in Mark 7:14 when He said, "Nothing that goes into a man from the outside can make him unclean."

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

On the contrary - I said, quite specifically, that there is a verse in the Bible that the Watchtower Society uses in order to justify the instruction to their members not to accept blood transfusions.

My inference was that the way they concoct and promulgate their doctrine is what makes them a cult.

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

I don't think there is a worldwide body whose job it is to class religions as 'mainstream', 'cult' or 'sect' - so I think you're sticking your neck out a bit to claim the Watchtower Society is 'not classed as a cult'.

Whether it is or not does depend on your point of view. I wouldn't expect a member, or even many ex-members, to accept the view that it is a cult.

The word 'cult' has a traditional application in describing any religious group but more particularly is describes one that deviates from the norm. In the first century AD the early church was considered to be a Jewish cult or sect, because it was seen as having deviated from Judaism.

The Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses is a cult by the common, modern definition you can read at answers.com:

The Society claims to be Christian, which invites the rest of Christianity to either agree or disagree with the claim. The fact that the Society denies the deity of Christ means that no other Christian denomination can agree that the Society is itself Christian; whatever else divides the Christian denominations, there is a creed that binds them together and the nature of God is a critical part of that creed. On this basis, the Society claims to be part of the Church; the rest of the Church cries 'false'.

In fact, the Society goes further - it claims not to be part of the Church; it claims that it is the church. The Society is led by a group of 'Elders' that claim exclusive knowledge and ability to interpret the Bible. They have managed to convince upwards of 12 million people worldwide of this, to the extent that some of them are prepared to die rather than have a blood transfusion. I think the Society therefore meets any reasonable definitions of 'authoritarian' and 'charismatic'.

As I said at the outset, ultimately it depends on your point of view. But from my point of view, I'm not wrong. ;)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

you are talking a whole pile of ignorant ( as in uneducated on the subject not an insult) poop there dude

A The bible clearly states there is only one true God so every single faith based on the bible thinks its the one true church

B Christ is gods first born JWs can only pray to God through Christ, Just because JWs do not believe in the trinity does not lesson the respect for Jesus as the most important man ever to have lived.Muslims believe in the same |God and do not believe in a divine Christ either are they a cult to?
In fact the trinity is totally flawed the bible continually refers to Christ as a separate entity

How I see flaws in the trinity
1 At the age of 30 Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist at this point a dove flew down and he was anointed with holy spirit. He then went into the worlderness for 40 days to pray because it was a lot to deal with. So for the trinity to be correct Jesus was in the water a dove flew down and gave him himself then he went off and talked to himself about it for 40 days

2 On the cross/stake Jesus said before dying "forgive them Father they know not what they do" so again for the trinity it would be " forgive them me they know not what to do"
The father is God ,The son is Christ his first angel and the Holy spirit is
Gods presence on earth

C The society it hardly charismatic it is uniformly treated with hatred and prejudice as you have clearly shown here

Catholicism was born out of Roman greed and the doctrine was *******ised to suit and rule the world violently and in fear. Remember the Romans did put Christ to death how come they get to make up the largest Christian faith world wide?

And any CofE based Church should know they were only developed so a king could divorce his first wife

JWs spend a lot of time researching the bible and historical fact to try their best to come up with what they beleive is the truth in the bible and in my search for the truth were the only faith I asked for information that I felt trully and deeply believed all of it and lived their lives by it whole heartedly

---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Another thing you may not know about JWs

They refuse to go to war they also refuse to any allegiance to flag or country

They were also persecuted by the Nazis and to save themselves all they needed to do was swear allegence to the flag but they refused

They are encouraged to work and contribute to society and live by the laws of the land even if they are unjust

They do not smoke they should not drink to excess they are taught to treat their bodies with respect

Obviously some will go against these teaching we are afterall all imperfect

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

They also will use people's lack of understanding of thermaldynamics to try and "prove" that a canopy of water, with a volume enough to flood much of the planet (the rest of the water coming form underground), could be held up by the thermosphere, after all, "balloons stay up with heat don't they?" When asked "what would stop the water boiling off into space?" they were stumped.
Similarly they roll out the old "If you put the head of a rake and the pole in a tumble dryer, not in a billion years would the head fit on the pole, so the building blocks of life couldn't come together as the scientists claim" They didn't like it when I asked "What if you put a magnet on the end of the pole to make it like an ion in a chemical reaction?"

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Can we get back on topic?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

insofar as we are deconstructing the religion / cult that is Jehovas Witness to ascertain motives and to find contradictory information within biblical scriptures to provide validity for a religious acceptance of blood transfusions I thought we were on topic?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I disagree.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I'm sure you're not surprised to hear that I disagree with the Watchtower Society's teaching regarding the nature of God. You may however be surprised to learn that I have actually done some reading around the subject, and have discussed the issues with members of the society in the past - such that nothing in your above post was news to me. I know the JW position on the Trinity, and I believe it to be profoundly wrong.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

it is funny how utterly STUPID hardcore religous nuts are, i remember about 2 years ago a JW had twins refused blood and died, i mean how SELFISH is that ?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

about as selfish as some one with a new baby on the way or just here going to war !

though i would say neither intend to die but are willing to risk their lives and their families loss of them for what they believe in !

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

i'm getting the feeling that freedom to practice religious beliefs ,is only OK if your religion is on the approved list .

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

What about abortion the willing execution of potential humans and how about the fact its perfectly acceptable in society for women to do it for no other reason other than they do not want a child. Now thats what I call selfish but in society perfectly acceptable

Stange how the right to choose whether to refuse treatment when you are sick isnt acceptable though eh??

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

yep lol

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I dont think its unacceptable I just think its crazy and think its selfish but Im bound to as I dont have the same beliefs though who are we to judge

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I always remember reading an article about two years ago, when a JW couple went into hospital, and the wife was having a baby, and whilst she was delivering, and it got into trouble, and was losing blood, they blatantly refused blood, and she died, the baby survived, and the husband was heard to say, it was something that god wanted, this is what makes me mad, ok, l am religious, but l would never put my wife and family in danger, through a church cult such as this.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

so you always stick to speed limits when your family is in the car?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Speed is only dangerous in certain circumstances when driving.
You can pick and choose when to exceed the speed limit so that you don't do it where it would put your family in danger.
Can you pick and choose your religious requirements in the same way?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

you are clearly one of them so what i ever i say is going to be wrong ?

the fact is we live in a CIVILISED country and should not allow a CHILD to die based on the fact he was brainwashed from being young (after all religion is PUSHED onto most people because of parents) this is england.... not somalia

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I was one of them and I have clearly stated I would most likely fold with the blood issue so stick that in your pipe and smoke it

CIVILISED really? I take it you are not on Earth then? its not been CIVILISED down here for a long time

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

IYO its safe anything can be around the next corner

A lot of Christian can pick and choose for example Catholics can pretty much do what they want as long as they confess and say their Penance

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Nevertheless speeding increase the risks, think of a blowout on a tyre, even when the risk appears minimal its still increased isnt it and thats a choice.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

If there's a corner, then pick and choose not to exceed the speed limit :rolleyes:

That's not picking and choosing not to follow their religion if their religion allows this then is it?
Could a JW pick and choose and still be a JW?

---------- Post added at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

Drive a proper citroen and the suspension compensates ;)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

So you only speed in straight roads then ;)

Thats convenient isn't it

No

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

what is your damage ? no need to be fanatic...

the fact is he should of not been allowed to die, END OF

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

who is a fanatic ? spend a bit of time and you will see I am hardly that however I do express my opinion in religious threads as someone with first hand experience of actually being part of it in the past

So you advocate forcing patients to have treatment? and here was me thinking we had at least some Human Rights in this country.

Oh and I thought you advocated a CIVILISED society ;)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I only exeed the speed limit where it is safe to do so, and very rarely.
You're much more likely to find me pootling along in lane 1 of a motorway keeping up with lorries and saving fuel.
As I've mentioned in the past, the worst accident I've been involved in which nearly killed me was doing 30mph in a 60 limit.

So, think of another analogy than speeding :)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I do not need to think of another I do not feel you have done enough to make me need to

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

You certainly havent come across as fanatical in this thread he does vote BNP so dont expect much understanding :D


Xaccers the speeding analogy was a good one to the point raised, whenever you speed with your family in the car you are putting them in more danger, theres no argument against that, Citroen suspension or not :)

Personally Ive never understood JW's and this thing with blood transfusions, maybe Im not educated enough, its blurred by me watching an episode of casualty many years ago and the same thing happened with someone dying after refusing blood, I never understood it and when the cheery men in the suits come knocking I always send them away with that thought in my mind. If someone wants to die its up to them, no matter how stupid it may seem. As its been hinted at on here, if you arent an atheist or a Christian it seems to get stick on here. Personally Im a cross between atheist and christian if there is such a thing, I havent made my mind up yet :)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

more patients have died from tainted blood than JWs died for refusing it

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

yes but then on the other side of that coin how many JW's would have lived if they had accepted it

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Or f you take the view of Nietzsche - improving the gene pool as he will not now have children & carry on the JW belief.

I don't know if it is still true, but is there not a system of shinning/excluding those who leave the JWs or go against their rules. This aspect of a religion always struck me as very unfair on the young who may not have had any choice in the matter.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Are they against taking plasma as well because isn't that a sub instead of gettiing blood that can save the persons life

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

yes there is . They work on the principle of poor associations lead to bad habit or in other words one bad apple can turn the whole barrel. I am not disfellowshipped for not practicing

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:58 ----------


they can take substitutes

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Cant understand so why a subsitute was not offered or was it. It's at such a young age he had to die because of his parents beliefs.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ma...od-transfusion here is some actual information on the case

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Thanks for the links Zing. That is so sad to think with just given the blood he needed his life could have been saved and the parents would now have there son but if that is that there belief and they are happy to go along with that then I suppose thats it.

Why dont they accept blood anyway.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

because the bible says life blood should be returned to the ground.It is a very serious issue for JWs

I do actually also believe blood is a very important issue for the Jewish faith also although I do not know if they refuse blood transfusions

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Weird but each to there own I suppose :(

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Therein lies the problem.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

disfeloshiping only occurs rarely and only applies to the one it is done to so thier children partner should not be affected and only applies to talking about the faith and or worship with that person

( and i cant remember any one being disfeloshiped for taking blood )

so even if a person is disfeloshiped this doesn't mean you would ignore them or not work with them

how family members or close friends of them treat them though will vary depending on many factors such as what the offense was to how close or how they looked up to them etc

if though you are talking about a child being disfeloshiped ( which again in my experiance is extreamly rare ( i my self am not in favour of even baptizing those under the age of consent to marriage anyway ) but of the one case i can remember which i think made it to papers years back the other children had already stopped talking to the other child long before because of the attitude of the child ( she went off and took drugs and led quite a wild life before coming back and being welcomed back several years later

but none of those children were told not to talk to or acknowledge her only not to discuss bible topics with her

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

exactly, people still living in the stone age...

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Except Arthur didn't say he wouldn't put his family in danger at all.
He said (suprisingly coherant and sensible for a change)
It fits so badly that zing had to selectively reference what Arthur said, although selectively referencing facts is a JW tactic so we shouldn't be that suprised I suppose.


I knew a JW who was excumunicated for a year becuase she was seduced at the age of 15 by the 17 year old son of one of the Elders. She felt so guilty for having premarital sex she broke down and confessed to her mum (who became a JW because when her daugher was a few months old, left her on the kitchen worktop which she fell off, and felt she needed to spend the rest of her life thanking god for her daughter not dying). Meanwhile, when it all came out the Elder moved his family to France and continued being an Elder there.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Indeed, I misread the speeding thing. Damn it just when I think Ive proved my point you pull that one out of the hat :D

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

TUT TUT dude on resorting to such measures against me

You talk as if you know what you are on about but you clearly do not

The JWs for one do not excommunicated anyone its disfellowshipped and if you had any sort of real idea you would know that

I misunderstood what Arther put I realise now he would would expose his family to dangers of the JWs however that could be seen to mean he would expose him family to risks in other ways hmmmm ....

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Right I've read this thread and have now decided to add my two penny's worth, and I don't mean to offend.

First off I am not religious, but I do respect other peoples believes, but as I'm getting older, my tolerance is slowly waining.

This is my view on how I see some today (without naming them, but you can guess what they are.)

1. One if you offend they want to kill you by removing your head, (OK it's the fanatics, but they tar everybody else with their brush)

2. It protect those who commit crimes against children, and in my opinion they should be lock up for life, or executed.

With regards to this story and many others like it.

If JWs are against this why go to hospital?

Why take the bed from somebody thats need it for life saving treatment?

With regards to speeding, thats a totally crap response, speed does not kill, its G-force from the sudden stopping that kills.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

that is most likely either the article mis-representing what he actually said or as they more normally do just making it up

we dont believe that god takes any one or that we are predestined to die at any particular time

what he may have meant is that she died doing what she believed in

non of us follow this belief with the intention of dieing but just as some one who is willing to go to war for this country or as it is now to protect as they see it a way of life for the western world do so knowing its a possibility they may die we follow our belief

i know many churches do often give out the message that some one especially when its a child was taken by god but it is something we would say is contradictory to bible teaching

(Ecclesiastes 9:11-12) “. . .I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. 12 For man also does not know his time. Just like fishes that are being taken in an evil net, and like birds that are being taken in a trap, so the sons of men themselves are being ensnared at a calamitous time, when it falls upon them suddenly.�

there are other scriptures but that is the most well know and still used in part by many "time and unforseen"

sorry if i am going on but i am often annoyed by what you were with what you heard when said by the clergy of other religions so can understand why hearing that was what he was supposed to have said and had to say it wouyld not be something would say or even think about a death

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Sorry but I thought G Force was a measurement of acceleration in relation relative to freefall

Also its not always the deacceleration or sudden stopping that kills in car acccidents either but the impact of the body onto a hard surface or the the crushing of the body or lacerations penitrations and various other possibilities so your response is just as flawed as when I mentioned speeding in the first place

JWs have the same rights as anyone else and what you said I find deeply prejudiced. The lad refused blood not other treatment I am sure he was on pain killers and therefore died more comfortable thean he would have done otherwise

You say you are tolerant well I say you are not

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

G-force is used by F1 and they aren't free falling.

What I should have said is life saving procedures, but pain-killers can be used outside a hospital.

I guess I am not a tollerant as I thought, and I apologise if I have offended you.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

no worries :)

http://physics.info/acceleration/ this explains g force quite well :)

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

we go to hospital because we don't want to die ! we how ever have somethings we wont use as is our right

others wont use animal tested products others wont use life extending procedures all in this country are catered for where they can

in this case the hospital decided to follow the lads wishes ( often they wont and will go to court to try and force treatment ) so must have decided he knew what he wanted

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Forgive my ignorance on JWs, but what kind of treatmeants can you not have?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

So you are seriously advocating that we don't allow people to follow what belief they want?

Also, I was under the impression that for certain operations on underage patients, the NHS required parental consent? Does this apply when the patient refuses treatment?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

the only thing that we don't take is blood

most will use any of the blood volume expanders or oxygen carrying alternatives

there always some who may refuse other treatments but that wont be because of our faith but on their individual view

for example most will take transplants ( done with out blood ) some may only take live donor transplants and others may refuse both but that would be a personal decision not because of our faith

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

you misunderstood what Arthur put? Pull the other one.
how can you misunderstand "but l would never put my wife and family in danger, through a church cult such as this"
at least have the decency to admit you deliberately selectively referenced one part of what Arthur said.

Excommunication to me is having no communication with or inclusion of someone, this is what they (including her mother and her 12 year old sister) did to a 15 year old girl for a year while the lad who, lets face it, had underage sex with her, suffered, hmm, lets see, a new life in the south of france where no one knew what he'd done.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

to be disfelowshiped ( we dont excomunicate ) she would have had to be baptized ( not in favor of that myself at that age anyway ) which meant she had decided to follow the rules now if she was forced into sex she really should have reported it to the police we would not stop her doing so if not then there could be several reasons including the one you are intimating as i will never claim that human falibility especialy when dealing with ones kids could have resulted in one seeming to be punished while the other did not seem to be

during that year the only things she would not have been allowed to do is take part in preaching or take part at the kingdom hall and the only things that her friends would be not allowed to do is talk about our religion with her

if they did differently it would be either because of personal feelings or what their parents individual views were about her be they right or wrong

we don't go around policing every one !

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I do not care what it is to you. Numerous times you have posted in threads acting like you know what you are talking about and acting like you know better than people with first hand experience on the subject. It is perfectly clear to me that is not the case at all and you are posting from your ill conceived prejudiced viewpoint

Here is something you will most likely not know and that is while "Disfellowshipped" a person will get visits from an elder on a regular basis .If the person shows they have learnt from their mistake they will be taken back into the congregation

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Your hardly making a fair comparison roger, letting youngsters cross the road and swimming in the sea are hardly in the same ball-park as sitting back and watching your fifteen year old child die a completely meaningless and pointless death that could easily have been prevented.
As stated above the key point here is that the person in question is/was a child not an adult, so it was incumbent on those parents to have done everything reasonably possible to keep their son alive, and if that meant going against his wishes then so be it.
In the 21st century its complete bloody madness that a child is allowed to comitt suicide, with he's parents tacit approval, based wholly on a book written over two thousand years ago. I know you'll say that is a simplistic view of the JW faith, but essentially its no different had this child believed in the Greek gods and threw he's life away because Zeus was supposed to have made a vacuos statement concerning blood thousands of years ago.
What would society say if this had been the case?? there is absolutely no difference between either doctrines, they are both ridiculous.
This is no better than than state sanctioned suicide, how far is the state willing to go in letting children throw their lives away based on religious dogma??

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

not fair comparison hmm

my brother in law and an uncle died swimming at the sea side nearly lost a nephew at the same time as my brother in law

another uncle lost a leg crossing the road and my mothers cousin died under a bus

as of yet despite me having two ops with out blood my mother having 2 cancer related operations and 2 other unrelated ops all with out blood my sister having a hysterectomy with out blood none of us have died

from my and most others point of view the things i mention are far more likely to kill a member of our family than blood

as to the boy even if his parents had wished to make him have blood ( of which there is no guarantee it would have saved him and in any case artificial substitutes give as good a chance if not better now than blood any how ) they could not have overrided his wishes any way

due to many cases that have gone to court at this age he was the sole arbitrator of what happened the hospital could have ( and it doesn't take long so time isn't an issue on this ) if they thought that he was being coerced or wasn't making this decision by him self easily applied to court to do as they wished

here is one done for a non JW

http://www.ivteam.com/court-orders-transfusion/

and another involving JW parents

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/br...-14080269.html

but recently as other cases of right to die etc have gone to court including one by a young girl who had decided she wanted no more treatment for her cancer ( she later changed her mind ) the courts have been far more respectful of the persons wishes if they can show it is their wish

we are also not the only ones refusing blood ( though we do it because of our belife and not because we think it is safer ) on safety grounds

and interesting read here
http://www.mybloodsite.com/content/t...odless-surgery

not that I or the religion endorse anything there its just it shows we are not alone ;)

blood transfusions are mostly put up as if you take it you live if you don't you die it is far from that clear cut

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

That's nice.
Back in the real world there was a 15 year old girl who'd had premarital underage sex and was being punished while the lad who had broken the law recieved no punishment.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

do you have any links to proper information on this?

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Zing, she was a friend of mine, her family and some of the Elders tried to convert me for 2 years and failed.
If you were indoctrinated at a young age, you're not going to know the techniques and mistruths they use to try and pull people in.
I've had them give misinformation about physics and chemistry as I've mentioned above, I would be suprised if you weren't aware of the "what good is half an eye" or "a mousetrap without a spring is of no use" lines though.
When they found out I was an athiest rather than CoE the brown stuff really hit the fan and their attitude towards me totally changed, to the extent that when the younger sister was complaining of a pain in her apendix area I told her mother that she should go to the doctor as soon as possible to have it checked, she made it clear that she would not because I had suggested it, instead gave her daughter laxatives. Last I saw of Anna was in hospital where she'd collapsed in pain at school with her apendix about to burst and had to be rushed in.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

A tremendous amount of what you have said about JWs is totally opposite to my experiences of it from various congregations.

For some reason the congregation around you does not follow the path as laid out by Watchtower. They simply are not doing it right it does not matter if you are athiest or whatever

My Dad is an Atheist and a Scientist and I always kept a good relationship with him while I was active and was never encouraged not to

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

You were lucky then, their mother was put under a lot of pressure to try and convert her husband and it led to many arguments and nearly divorce on several occasions.
The first time I went along to the Kingdom hall (I used to give them lifts to and from it) and went inside, one of the Elders gave a talk, mostly aimed at the youngsters telling them they shouldn't be afraid to say no to anything their friends might try and get them to do which is agaist their religion, all well and good I thought, until he said "So remember children, beware atheists they will lead you astray"
I nearly choked when I heard that.

Most of the girls were not encouraged to go onto college and make something of themselves, instead they were encouraged to marry and go pioneering.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

well look at it this way. Those who do not practice faith whole-fully or have no faith will be the ones taking drugs drinking to excess and living an immoral life so what he said is not that far from the truth.

You will highlight instances where a JW has done these things whilst a JW but I will counter that with the fact that they were not living by the faith whole-fully

A true Christian once they become a true Christian will not live an immoral lifestyle.Unfortunately for me I found being a true Christian to hard and that is why I am inactive . Rather not be a hypocrite in front of the God I still believe in

Also imo I believe you can be a true Christian without any affiliation to a church

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

What? All of us without faith take drugs and drink to excess?
Interesting view of the pope or Terry Waite you have there :D

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

now who is misinterpreting something for their own gains lol


Not everyone who is a none Christian will live unclean lives and not all Christians will live clean lives. But a Christian who wholeheartedly lives by their faith will and if they do not then they are not true Christians

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

hmm i married outside my faith never been put under pressure to convert my wife

there will always be some who take things to far but eventually they will be shown the right way but being human that can take a while ;)

yep youngsters are encouraged to pioneer but also to be able to provide for them selves as non of our pioneers or elders ect are paid to do the work or their jobs and are activley encouraged not to relie on others or the state to look after them
Matthew 9:35-38 & 10:6-8"Freely you have received, freely give."
the example given that Jesus was a qualified carpenter and didn't start his ministry till he was 30

as to those atheists leading you astray comment i have heard worse about those bible bashes leading you astray too ;) and a lot of time we would use the term those in the world in the same way meaning anyone not of our faith but we dont mean by this that they should not talk to no one but to remember to not just take what other people say just because of who they are be it friend teacher etc and to check with the bible and with others in our faith if they are unsure as i am sure many would be saying the other way around if they came from another faith or atheist back ground

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

Especially when the local group and Elders give their backing and support to such pressures.

Actively discouraged from going into further or higher education, instead directed to get a job which pays their way, after all, "why bother when there's a new world order coming?" as said to an English teacher friend of mine by a parent when he suggested with a bit more effort their child could do better in class.

Will lead you astray??? Not "may" not "might" but "WILL"

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

the first one yes local groups of elders will get things wrong but hopefully they would get sorted at some point by one of the traveling overseers

as to one parent yep they to get it wrong but out of my peer group most went on to university or apprenticeships a few went straight to pioneering though they too have since gained other qualifications before marrying

you have all sorts in the organization not all follow the rules as well as others and some plainly get it wrong all are fallible ;)

i am happy to use the word will in stead i dont think it changes my post away from what i was trying to say ( though i may ;) have to re read it )

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

I presume they ask questions such as "how many of your youngsters are being encouraged to go off to college and university?" and "I do hope you're not using our literature which gives misinformation in order to add false credence to our opinions so we can use that to convert more people? That would be awful if you did that" and "any underage sex going on that hasn't been reported to the police?" oh and "you haven't blamed someone's family troubles on Discworld books and X-Men comics being in the house have you?"
No? Didn't think so.

Will would mean an enevitability, so you're saying that non-JWs will alway eventually lead JW's astray?
Apart from that not saying much for your opinion of non-JWs, it doesn't show much of an opinion of JWs either.

Re: Young lad dies, after refusing blood
 

hmm my version of English doesn't lay such hard a fast rules to a word ;)

i will not eat that last cake is a good example of that lol

the first part is loaded with a lot more than what a was commenting on and would take far more space to go over than i have time for or the ability to type on here
but i will say that some of your comments may apply to older literature that we no longer use

we have always been willing to alter how we see things as time does by ( proverbs 4:18 ) ( the light gets brighter ) we have embraced many things however not all keep up all the time with developments ( my mum doesn't even like talking about evolution or science for example ) and i have both the disc world series in my house and all the harry potter books ;)

as to underage sex if i heard about it it would be reported to the police if i thought it was non consensual no mater who or what their parents were as would all those i know

and my opinion of non JWs could be seen as not that bad considering i married one and i am still married to her ( 21 years in july lol )