Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I was reading a story about a girls mother refused her daughter to wear a scarf at the schools visit to a mosque. claiming "she did not want her daughter to 'dress as a Muslim'"

in one of the comments someone asked about it happening the other way around.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

If it is compulsory, then why the permission slip?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Good point.
I was watching a prison documentary thing the other day and a prisoner who topped himself had little notes he wrote. the one said something about 'visit church'

the prison officer woman commented something about 'he would have to do that anyway'

is it compulsory to attend church in prison?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Strange - when I used to attend Catholic Church in Glasgow, it was expected that females covered their heads with a hat or a scarf.

What's the difference?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I also recall seing the Queen and Princess Di put on a head covering when going to a mosque. Its called being repectful. Tourists all over the world do the same when entering a mosque.

As for 'dressing like a muslim' comment it goes to show how stupid some people are to they are going to think putting on a head scarf is dressing like a muslim.

As for happening the other way round - I am assuming the question is would a muslim girl who wears a head scarve remove it if she went to a church? I didnt know that removing a head covering is a pre-requisite of church attendance, or a Christian requirement. Can someone correct me if I am wrong?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

The schools response was ott, no teachers present to look after the kids? What? Was this an entire school outing? Could they not participate in other classes in other years?
Why not agree that if the parents want their children to miss out on the oppertunity, then they can be given home/course work to be completed by the next day and are the responsibility of the petty parents.

As for your other question Gary, yes, Muslim children do visit churches and synagogues as part of their education.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

It wasn't about the scarf thing the other way around. it was "Why aren't muslim school children taken round Catholic Churches or Christian Churches as part of their education?"

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

All of the non-Christian kids (not just Muslims) were taken around churches when I was at school - I think the curriculum had it down as 'equal opportunities boredom' :shrug:

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I did and I had muslims, christians, indians and all kinds in our class.

We visited a mosque, churches, a synagogue and temples of all kinds. I cannot remmeber if it required a permission slip though.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

ALL school trips require parental permission.:)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

But are they required to do so, and to wear such things as crosses or simply make the sign of the cross in a catholic church?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I found this.
When a Muslim enters a church he/she must recite the SHAHADA
'ASHHADU AL- LA ILAHA IL-LAL-LAHU
WA ASHHADU AN-NA MUHAMMADAN
ABDUHU WARASULUH'

Once it is said, a Muslim is free to enter the church.

Do the kids have to do this?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

My daughter goes to an Islamic faith school. They follow the RE sylabus that is practised in all schools in the borough. If this entails going to different places of worship to have a look, then yes they will go. She hasn't has yet (she is only 5) but I am aware that older students have visited non-Islamic places of worship.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Well, the non-Muslim kids wouldn't have to ;)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Your knowledge of Islam astounds me (and yes incase you don't realise I am being sarcastic).

As for wearing a cross (is that a Christian requisite?) or making signs of the cross, I do not think any visitors to a mosque are asked or required to prayer.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

To my knowledge, not even christians are required to do that :confused:

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

It's a knowledge of how to use Google that's astounding :)

Just something they have on them handy for when they meet vampires or ghosts.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I certainly never have... I think that sort of thing is left up to the priest or vicar to decide..

My own view: Well, while I am not religious, I have been bought up to respect the religious views of others, especially when entering a place of worship (be it a mosque, church, chapel or whatever). Personally, I don't see the problem with this girl being asked to wear a head scarf, but I do see the parent's actions as an example of the staggering intolerance show for others religious beliefs by SOME catholics.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I don't recall visiting any churches at any time during my education.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Neither do I, but it may be something that was introduced after we went to school.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

May I ask where you found this, Gary?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Nor me, it was the odd castle, a field trip round Chester and a few nights in London for our school trips

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

My boy has visited churches, temples etc.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I visited all types of places of worship whilst at school. People should be able to opt out of these trips, however i do feel they are good for helping kids understand other communities.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

In this case the opting out bit was in effect removed by classing it as truancy.

The only way of really understanding other communities is using covert surveillance(hidden cameras etc) to find out what they(eg Abu Hamza and his many supporters) truly think. But then the object of the exercise isn't to find out the truth.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

seems to the mother has overreacted a tad ,does she think that putting a head scarf on her daughters head will turn her into a muslim .In her own words the mother says her daughter likes to learn ,and then denies her the chance to broaden her experience:shrug:.If you ask me both the mother and daughter need to grow up a bit

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

yep - well said

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Is it true catholics can't eat meat on Friday's?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I think there is a tradition for Catholics to eat fish on Fridays which still applies during Lent, but used to be observed throughout the year. Just google Fish, Friday and Catholics.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I was being a bit sarcastic, religions say a lot of things and much of it goes ignored.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

So the basis of your statement is a facebook page. :erm:

If you had read some of the other articles, you would have seen the Shahada is a simple declaration of faith - nothing to do with saying it when entering a church.

Only you, Gary, only you.........

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I knew this was coming. because I knew you could Google part of the quote and find out where it came from. like you usually do anyway.

Only you, foreverwar, only you......... :erm:

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I was in our church choir when i was 10 years old and for another 3 years after that and we had to make the sign of the cross as we passed the alter on our way to our seats, and when we took bread and wine during the holy communion, it was taught as a matter of respect.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

And later you realised you were tricked into doing the letting Jesus into your heart ritual? :D

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

yet another Muslim thread by the grand master of Muslim threads :rolleyes:

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Why is it that our kids are being told that if you don't abide by other religious rules, ie the kid in question, IF my child doesn't want to wear a certain bit of clothing to go into a certain religious building, then she should not be forced too, and told to wait outside, l get really fed up with all this religious stuff being shuvved down our throat.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

My mother always used to say. if you don't like it then don't read it. :)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

you only have to wear a scarf maggy -not bring down half a ton of rubble down onto your head :D

---------- Post added at 17:48 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

All I Needed Was The Love You Gave

All I Needed For Another Day

And All I Ever Knew

Only You
:luv:

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Its the racial motivation around it that offends me the most.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

agreed ,wonder why the DM didn't write a story on how the mother is teaching her daughter how to be a bigot ?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Well I don't know if someone is going to be offended on my behalf for what you say. so I'll just advise you stick your fingers in your ears and hum a tune for a bit.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I'm sick of constant Muslim threads or anti religion threads or gender bender bashing threads .

Oh for one intelligent erudite and positive thread on a subject that everyone can discuss without anyone getting abused or sneered at..

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I'm not religious, but If I was to enter a building that has rules, due to religious reasons, I would like most decent people abide by them. Simples.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Catholicism teaches that many things are 'sinful' without there being any biblical evidence to support it. I get the respect thing but to not do those things is not against anything written in the bible.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

As a muslim I can clearly re-inforce what Forever is saying. The Shahada is a declaration of faith. And you do not have to say it when entering a church.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Let me tell you what i think and what most probably also think of you. You are a racist and you take great pleasure in creating as many racially orientated threads as you can to stir the pot. Is that clear enough for you or would pictures be better.

Now no doubt you will go running to the mods or red rep me or even send me a nasty pm. Look at my avatar and say does that look like a face that gives a ****.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Well said Sirius.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I will i just had to speak my mind

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I wish people would stop slagging people off on this forum/thread, look at me, l am still here, people have different opions, and therefore should NOT be slagged off for what they think.

I say what l think, l may be right or wrong, but l accept what other people say, so try and be civil to each other.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Well said Arthur.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

Thanks for letting us all know.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman who prays with her head uncovered disgraces her head. It is exactly the same as if she had a shaved head. Indeed, if a woman's head is not covered let her head be shaved.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Some light hearted humour about Islam, I was reading the Quran and after it describes who a woman can expose herself to it says that : older women not seeking to inspire lust can remove clothes as they wish... but it is preferred that they don't.

Made me chuckle.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Someone check my forehead, I agree with Arthur.
The school should have realised that there are small minded parents who would object to their children learning, and made plans, either have the kids do RE homework to make up for what they're missing out on and make the parents look after their sprogs all day, or they attend other classes' lessons.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

the child in question goes to a catholic school Arthur ,it is part of their curriculum to visit other places of worship ,hence it being compulsory ,the mother should know this when she enrolled her child ,imo it's just another case of "selective religion" as i call it

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

mother over reacted school over reacted

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I think an important lesson was missed here - the etiquette for visiting different places of worship varies - including removing footwear in a Hindu temple, males wearing a head covering in a synagogue, etc

- females wearing a scarf in a mosque is just another such example of being polite when visiting, it doesn't constitute 'dressing like a Muslim' , it is just a simple gesture to show respect to the hosts during the visit.

How unfortunate that good manners were, apparently, subverted by other agendas in this particular case - and shame that the educational opportunity was ultimately subsumed by prejudice ...

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

What l believe in, is that NO one should be forced to do something, they don't want to do, l have beliefs, but l would not force that one anyone else, I am Cof E and my wife and family are catholic, but if l went to my wifes church, l would not be forced to go into that church, therefore l belive the teacher involved in the problem with this child, should go and have his head tested, for common sense.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

This was a visit to a Mosque, not a brain washing exercise, no-one was being 'forced' to believe in anything, just have a look round, the girls were asked to wear a scarf during the visit, it wasn't a big deal.

Education involves safe investigation of where the boundaries are, the teacher was guilty of nothing more than allowing the students to compare religions based on a real experience - the problem was not with the teacher, but with the parents seeking to prejudice that process.

- common sense & bigotry do not exist in the same place, Arthur ...

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

you dont have to be either of those things not to want to do this or have your kids do it nor does that mean they wont know about other religions

my faith means that I or my kids wouldn't do any thing at another faith church that would be considered an act of worship so although i wouldnt consider putting on a scarf to break that rule others may

personally i don't think you can learn much about another religion from a short visit to their placer of worship in any case it is just being done to make it look like they are doing their bit at teaching about other faiths imho

they would gain far more knowledge reading about it and maybe getting a person from that religion to come and answer any questions that they might have about what they read in thier own school where they would feel less presure about breaking some taboo they hadnt learned about and more likely to ask searching questions that may not have been asked while trying not to upset the worshipers at the place of worship

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

That argument could be used against any 'school trip' - personally I think being 'in the place' is superior to reading about it - I don't mean to appear to dismiss your opinion, but mine is that a visit constitutes 'reality' - reading about it is dependent on another persons' opinion - forming ones own is always preferable - in my opinion :)

We will have to agree to disagree, as I think a short visit to another place of worship can be 'educational' - however a 'follow up' with a representative from a particular religion, which you suggested, would be a good idea - but complementary to the initial visit, rather than replacing it :)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

While i think the mother was completely overreacting i also think the school are at fault here as Xaccer's said no teachers at all left at the school so that this girl and any other's that had an objection to going on this trip could be put in one of the empty classrooms with some work. Labelling the girl a truant because they were unwilling to accomadate anything other then what they wanted is clearly not a good thing and makes a bit of a joke on the whole tolerence thing.

Not wishing to go to a mosque\church or any other religious building by the way does not automatically mean bigot it could mean non believer This is one of the reasons why i believe faith is something to be decided when your older rather then younger takes the ammo out of the people who claim the whole brain washing thing.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

why? are you job hunting.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

In answer to the thread header question - yes.

My son is in year 13 of High School, and amongst the members of his year are Christians, Sikhs, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, et al - throughout his stay at his high school, as part of Religious Education, there have been visits to RC, CofE, and Methodist churches (compare and contrast), Sikh and Hindu temples, Jewish Synagogues, Islamic Mosques, and even one to a humanist ceremony (baby naming).

However, the visits are not compulsory - parents can opt-out their children if they so wish (but not from the classes).

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Just to answer one question in regards to 'force the girl' comment, the girl was told, IF she didn't wear a scarf, and refused to go into the church, she would be classed as playing truant, and dealt with by the school, this is why l am saying, YOU SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO A RELGIOUS BUILDING, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GO IN. now if that isn't being forced in, l don't know what is.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I'd suggest that poking them through the door with a big stick may well constitute 'forcing them in', but I'm fairly sure that that didn't happen...

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Because it is not compulsory; don't belive everything you read.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

Not all individual trips though, Maggy. When my children go to the local church, or to the village for a field trip, the school uses a general permission mandate that we complete at the beginning of each year. :)

---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:04 ----------

But one can understand the school's motivation and reasoning.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

No one forced the child to do anything.

---------- Post added at 13:19 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

The point is the mother's reasoning behind her decision was that she didn't want her daughter to, "dress like a Muslim." Not that she was being expected to pray or worship as a Muslim.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

imho, it should not have been compulsory.

However, the mother objected, saying by wearing a headscarf.

It would seem the mum had not been to Kafflik Church for a while, as every icon or statue of Mary, Mother of Jesus, has her wearing some sort of head covering.
http://www.stjohn-catholic.org/Image...%20-%20web.jpg http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/b/bu/bubbels...sus_statue.jpg

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

But I don't think the trip was compulsory.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

That is what the Mail reported.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Hmm...shouldn't that at least give one an indication of the veracity of the text?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

i would say it was compulsory for that school as it was part of the curriculum

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

If you are going to bait me and put me in the same bracket as Gary L then I suggest you read my posts again.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

nope its the bedrock of this forum .

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

What on Earth are you on about?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

By that church, I assume you mean a Catholic church?

As I said before, I would respect the "house rules" even if I didn't fully agree, and I wouldn't be forced in there either.

Plus I would not embarrass myself, family, or friends by not entering

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

and thats her right too some will feel like me that only if you were required to do something like bowing or putting on a hat for a specific part of a service would i say no but others may feel that if they dont wear a hat normally they shouldn't have to

my feelings on whether these trips are good i already made buit i would add i think it seems to me that maybe if they had been given a lot more information on what and why they were being asked to wear there may have been less hassle any how

wrong order on answers lol

schools reasoning i am sure is very reasonable if viewed as them making sure they ticked every box ready for inspection ! but not so when it comes to explaining to parents or on what permision slips are if saying no means you are making your child a truant

which actualy is where i would have taken issue and refused the trip solely on those grounds offering to go to school to look after them if it was really being abandoned for the trip ;)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

i have taken this from the National society for promoting Religious education
http://www.natsoc.org.uk/schools/curriculum/nc/nc4.html

these guidlines are the ones that the school follows as they work hand in hand with the national curriculum

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

There's a National society for promoting Religious education??

What a totally pointless aim...

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4...thout-religion

The more I see of religion, the more opposed I am to any teaching of it at all, I consider all organized religion to be a negative force.
And yes, I'll put my own leanings as UCTAA
http://www.uctaa.net/ourchurch/intro.html
As it sums up the whole ridiculousness of it all!

Getting back on topic, nobody comes out smelling of roses in this, allowances needed to be made for those who do have some objection.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Interesting if you look at it from another angle.
just supposing it wasn't religion but something else. like say you believed in aliens and some believed in fairies, whilst others believed in lepricorns.

a group of fairy and alien believers had to go and visit a place where they believed in lepricorns. and to show respect for that visit you had to wear a green hat and a ginger wig.

religion is a powerful thing really. it affects people in so many ways whether you believe or you don't believe. you have to be taught it as part of a curriculum.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

actually gary that's incorrect ,children don't get taught religion at school they get taught ABOUT religion, totally different thing
I think it also has to be remembered that the parents and child are catholics ,she goes to a catholic school ,they are already religious so no one is forcing religion down anyones throat .

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I'd say it was the same thing.
You get taught history, and you get taught about history.

That's in reply to the mother in the story. not nothing I've said.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I would disagree with you, Gary - one size does not fit all; there is a difference in being taught about something, and being taught it (practical versus abstract).

For instance, children are taught Arithmetic, English, French, etc, which allows them to use practical skills in Arithmetic, English, French, etc - they are taught about Religion, Ethics, Politics et al to (imho) give them knowledge of those areas to inform viewpoints, not to give them skills to be religious practitioners or politicians. (I won't get into the realms of metalearning and metathinking :D ).

Sometimes, learning is for the sake of knowledge, not just for practical application (but willing to be corrected on this by any practicing teachers on the forum).

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

i know , it was just a statement to the posters that seem to think that religion has been forced down this girls throat ,as a religious family (or appear to be by the type of school the girl goes to) that is not the case

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Everything in schools are 'taught' me saying "you have to be taught" does not mean you have to be taught to 'become' to 'be' religious.

lessons for today are P.E. maths, geography, french and R.E.
(Note to parents and the pedantic) R.E. is taught 'about'. your child is safe :erm: :)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Like it or not, religion is an integral part of the society we live in today. I think children should learn about the various beliefs, even if it means wearing a headscarf for an hour or so.

Having a little knowledge about something is much better than living in complete ignorance.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I don't think there is a problem with ignorance of religion as long as it doesn't lead to intolerence of religion which it doesn't automatically. While i am happy that religion is there for those who want it i don't believe it is something that should be forced on kids or done in such a way that it is basically forced on them as this case if what is reported is true. I am ignorant of many faiths and their details but i am happy for them to exist and to be there for those who wish to have that faith and i would not appreciate being classed as a truant if i chose not to enter a religious building or did not want to wear something that was associated with a faith.

I don't think this is much of a story and think the school should have been able to accomadate however many parents didn't want their kids to go without classing them as truants if they did not attend all seems a bit ott for me.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

You mean like this...

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

thats the one known as old pop corn the oldest and wisest of the lepricorns;)

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Yes.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

I don't think that many people would disagree that the Daily Mail comes across as being a little sympathetic toward the mother and daughter in question.
So for totally unbiased reporting can anybody honestly say the DM would have put the same slant on the story had this been a Muslim girl visiting a church, and her mother made an equally vacuous excuse for not attending?
Its precisely the editorial tome of newspapers like the Express, Mail and Sun that reinforces the views of people like Mrs Owen, these anti-Muslim stories are now printed on an almost daily basis by these three rags, so is it any wonder that this drip drip continual bashing is having an effect?
From a personal point of view I can't see putting a scarf around your head and wearing trousers is dressing like a Muslim, the girls are hardly being made to wear a burkha.
If her mother was a little more open minded she might learn from her daughter after the visit that not all Muslims are carbon copies of Abu Hamza.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

one could argue if Islam was a little more open minded [re its treatment of females and what they must cover,and give a little thought to the feelings and beliefs of others] then there would not be a problem .

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

You know, on top of Mount Sinai there is St Catherine's monastery.
They insist visiting women cover up and dress respectfully.
Does that mean christianity isn't open minded?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Christianity in itself isn't open minded. otherwise there wouldn't be a book called "How to Be an Open-Minded Christian Without Losing Your Faith" and there's some who don't like homosexuals and stuff.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

Then how do you explain gay bishops?

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

By saying that Christianity in itself is not open minded. otherwise there wouldn't be any objections by fellow christians.

Re: Do Muslim kids visit churches as part of their education?
 

If it was close minded then you wouldn't have any gay bishops.