NAT's
 

Hi all,

Not sure on whether this should be here or console gaming but here goes,

We have 2 xbox 360 consoles and have recently discovered that in order to play online without problems requires you to have an open NAT on both,

I have partly managed to achieve this by giving one console a static IP and using the port forward feature in my router to open ports
53, 80, 88 & 3074

This allows one console to permenantly have an open NAT, but not the other,
as you can only open the ports for one IP address

The router I use is a TP Link WR1043N

One suggestion was to get more than one IP address from Virgin, is this possible, I am on the 50MB service,

My Son & I would really appreciate any help and advice anyone can give,

Thanks

Re: NAT's
 

More likely the Networking sub-forum.

You need to use triggered port forwarding (page 55 of your manual if it's the same as the one online). Remove DMZ and any port forwarding you have going on regarding the ports below.

http://imgur.com/cHoaa.png

[mod: oversized pic changed to link]

Re: NAT's
 

Nice thank you I'll have a look when I get home
I tried a variation of this where by I entered a range of 52 - 54 to trigger 53 and so on but that did not work
what about another idea I have read which says above as you have but also using a static IP on both and then
Using the address reservation with MAC address in the DHCP section?

---------- Post added at 07:15 ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 ----------

Just had a quick check whilst at work and found the following statement on page 57 of the manual,

Each rule is allowed to be used only by one host on LAN synchronously the trigger connection of other hosts on LAN will be refused,

So does this mean it'll only work for ONE Xbox?

Re: NAT's
 

No it's not restricted to a single host, if it worked in the same way as port forwarding there would be no point to its existence. It's primary use (I believe) is to allow non-static ip hosts behind the router to have ports forwarded to them but it works just as well for multiple hosts using the same ports since the address to be forwarded isn't static but based on which made the connection.

Re: NAT's
 

I did wonder what the point of port forwarding and port triggering would be if they were the same,

Should I give the devices static IP addresses first? Also what do you think to the idea of the address reservation in the DHCP as it would appear this is what some of the open WRT software seems to do,

This was my next topic to read up on if this doesnt work!

http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index

Re: NAT's
 

I've just realised there's a flaw in this for use in gaming in general if only one port was available however since multiple ports are utilised on XBLive and I've seen this working in practice, obviously because of the multiple port use then it shouldn't be an issue, although I suppose it would depend on how sophisticated the router is. Static IP addresses shouldn't make any difference but I've known routers to be quirky and illogical (or just plain buggy) so if dynamic doesn't work then obviously try static.
Edit : This could all be down to uPNP being enabled, so that's also something to try but I've always tried to avoid using uPNP for security reasons.

Re: NAT's
 

My understanding is that port triggering only allows one device at a time to use the triggered port, so if 360 1 triggers port 53 first, then 360 2 cannot use it until it's free again, etc.

Have you tried setting up one 360 with port forwarding and putting the other one in the DMZ?

Re: NAT's
 

Nope, VM business do a multi-IP service on either a 4Mb or 10Mb (Both Ex-NTL only) but there's nothing on residential..

Re: NAT's
 

Ok thank you,

I remember the days of the 600DL

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

No,

didnt try this

This would mean....

both having static IP's i imagine then opening ports for xbox 1 and putting xbox 2 in DMZ..

maybe I'll try this too

Re: NAT's
 

Only one device can ever use a single port at any one time on the same address, so unless the xbox live service (or game servers) have alternate ports then you're never gonna be able to use the port forwarding and DMZ together as it'll still be trying to use the same external port..

Surely microsoft offer alternate ports??? If not then they're truely limiting their market

Re: NAT's
 

If I disable th Upnp on my router will my xbox's and PS3 still see my NAS?

Im overwhelmed now as to which process to try first,

I think just to make things easier I will give both a static IP just so I can keep an eye on which is which in the router statistics,

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 ----------

This is the circles I have been going round and round in....

Just discovered something called DD-WRT firmware but Im not sure it would give me any more options than I already have based on what you say above about ports.

Will have alook around and see if there are alternative ports

Re: NAT's
 

I thought it was worth a go since it fixed a work colleague's same problem with two PS3s connected to one router. Anything is worth trying in these situations.

Re: NAT's
 

Yep anythings worth a try plus Ive learnt along the way,
But I have to reside to the fact that the 2 xbox's are both trying to access the same ports at the same time,

Although..................

My router has the Upnp feature which I have disabled and triggered the ports needed instead, this just helps by which ever xbox turns on first gets the open NAT,

Since this I have found a site that does actually list Microsoft certified routers that will allow multiple xbox's with an open NAT online at once!
Only difference is that you have to have the official certified firmware to go with them,

Should you need the information you can find it here, so whilst it is apparently possible I'd be interested as to how it works....

Since my router is a recent purchase with 300Mbps wireless and a Giga LAN Im gonna stick with it a while!

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------

Dont shoot me down just yet, Ive had an idea!

What about connecting 2 routers? If I disable the DHCP on the 2nd router will that allow me to assign the triggered ports again?

Can this work with 2 sets on the network.......

Re: NAT's
 

2 routers won't help, the ports can only be forwarded once, the answer seems to be to use UPNP, along with static DHCP assignment (IP address reserved to client device hardware mac on router). The static DHCP assignment is needed to prevent the devices swapping addresses, which may cause annoying issues.

NB. If your router does not give open NAT to a single box using UPNP, then it won't be any better trying to do it with two.

Re: NAT's
 

The issue here isn't the need for two routers (remember your residential modem can only give out one external IP) As such you only have a single pipe (that one external IP) feeding your whole internal network.. Even if the router was clever enough to multistream the relevant ports (most residential routers will not, no idea though about tomato (or equiv) and match them to the internal IP's you're still switiching from one internal IP to the other which would in essence slow down both XBOX's probably to a point of extreme lag. This would probably also be the case even if xbox had alternate ports..

The ONLY sure fire way of doing it is to gain another external IP (either an additional link (ADSL or VMB) or to swap your existing 50Mb VM for a VMB (5 IP's on 10Mb but only for ex-ntl) or go straight to an adsl supplier that will do you a block of 8 (5 usable) IPs

Also please do not start up any more threads on the same problem ;)

Re: NAT's
 

Just a thought, why cant you use the first router to connect up both Xbox,s whilst turning off all security, disabling NAT etc, then run an ethernet from 1st to 2nd router and enable all security on that one.

It sounds plausible but I have no idea if it will work

Re: NAT's
 

Mainly as if you disable NAT then the box effectlively becomes a glorified switch , and if the xbox boots first it'll get the external IP or if the 2nd router boots up first it'll get the external IP, but never both at the same time..

Re: NAT's
 

Ok I follow you, what about this scenario then

1st router to 1st xbox with no security

join 1st router to second router (with NAT enabled) then attach second xbox then stick the 2nd xbox in the dmz :confused::D

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 ----------

Edit, just realised Kymmy, youve already answered my question as you cant use the same external IP twice, Doh

Re: NAT's
 

I can though ;) but that's the joy of the so many times I've mentioned VM Business which gives me 5 IP's (though I can also dynamic IP's not sure what the limit will be)

I think it's stupid though that there is this xbox live limitation :rolleyes:

Re: NAT's
 

It's a peer to peer gaming network. Without reachable external ports an XBox can't host games which would kill off the network.

I'm sure MS don't intend for XBL to not be inclusive.

Re: NAT's
 

Well im gonna give up on the subject, in fear of repeating myself or trying the same thing from a different angle; but.

On this website it can be found that the Microsoft certified routers with the correct firmware can run 2 xbox's with open NAT's; how?

I understand completely what your saying about 1 external address, and the fact they both fight for pole position to get to the open ports, but this been the case whats different with the certified routers,

And here for the list of certified routers,

Re: NAT's
 

It would certainly appear the easiest solution Dex, I take it you and your son play at the same time because if you don't, just do what I do, and stick which ever one your using in the DMZ, and it only takes a minute.

Also before we give up on this, what type of games do you play, some games arent really affected by NAT that much anyway.

I have 2 xbox's and 1 PS3, and when the wifes upstairs on say Peggle!!!!! and I,m on MW2 we can both still communicate ok on voice chat.

Regarding the other routers, I can only presume that just because they may say for eg, you have an open NAT on both consoles that actually they don't.

Therefore what looks ok must be ok if you catch my drift.

Re: NAT's
 

I've just read a post on another forum talking about the DIR-615 D2 (the VM supplied router) and their post was about how pleased the user is with it, but I thought you would be interested in this part:

If the user got it from VM, then I assume it's running firmware v1.00VG. If they bought it standalone, then I assume it will be a D1 revision running firmware v4.11.

The DIR-615 was also on the US list of Xbox Live certified routers a few post back. I believe they can be found quite cheap.

I hope this helps.

Re: NAT's
 

That is very interesting, especially since I have one! only reason I opted to buy the TP link was to get the GB LAN,

Im gonna give this a try tomorrow, I had tried this as the addition router when I tried connecting 2 (earlier post)

Thank you so much for this information, I will post the results back.

Re: NAT's
 

No problem.

I've just thought, these might be useful too:

D-Link firmware

• ftp://ftp.dlink.co.uk/dir_products/dir-615/

D-Link VM firmware

• ftp://ftp.dlink.co.uk/Virgin_Media/Firmware/

Re: NAT's
 

Nice one, need to check the model or something too as someone else has said the freebie may not work.

For anyone else who thinks it is not possible for you to have 1 IP address with multiple Xbox's connect to a router and all use the same ports through the NAT then read the attached (if its worked), it make an interesting read and will stop you looking for a solution. I have spent most evenings this week trying all sorts!
Basically just buy a router from the list of certified one's, contained in this document around page 7 explains how it all works and what is required by Microsoft from the manufacturers in order for it to work " out of the box "

Re: NAT's
 

Hi
Dexstroyer
ShadowmanUK the chap who runs xboxlivetheguide is the best 1 to speak to regarding opening NAT's on xbox and i think you have already,He has help me with all my routers.
Ive got 4 xboxes running on 1 router all with open NAT's thanks to him.

Re: NAT's
 

I have yes, thanks to much googling!

People have said its not possible with one external IP address, but it is!

Re: NAT's
 

Re: NAT's
 

Its quiet simple.

1. Disable any DMZ - Demiltarized Zones
2. Disable any ports you've tried to forward regarding xboxs.
3. Ensure both xboxs are coupled up to the router using an ethernet cable
4. Assign static ip addresses to each xbox e.g.

Xbox 1 Info: IP - 192.168.1.134
Subnet - Automatic (usually 255.255.255.0)
Gateway - 192.168.1.1 (or your routers ip)

Xbox 2 Info: IP - 192.168.1.88
Subnet - Automatic (usually 255.255.255.0)
Gateway - 192.168.1.1 (or your routers ip)

Once their assigned. Test connection to xbox live. If all is successful have fun online! Else proceed to step 5.

5. Log into your router configuration page. (usually 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.0.1 varys from router models)

6. Portforward the necessary ports to each individual ip address. (see portforward.com for your router model and the ports needed to forward.

Re: NAT's
 

This wont work, static or dynamic just makes the device easier to find, I have even tried the IP address reservation by MAC address,

Turn DMZ, also tried this, and port forwarding & or port triggering can only port forward 53, 80, 88 & 3074 to one IP address, as does my inadequate UPNP feature on my router

The basis of this working is down to the UPNP feature working correctly which is what the guys on here say,
So providing you use a certified router with approved firmware it will work "out of the box" without the need for extra configuration; I have yet to purchase one or flash my Dlink 615, if it will let me.

Not saying your solution above wouldnt work for someone else but not for me,
:tu:
Thanks for the post

Re: NAT's
 

I can't try them as I don't have two Xboxes, but there are instructions on configuring DD-WRT and Tomato firmware based routers to enable two Xboxes in the same connection at http://jakebillo.com/two-xboxes-one-...-wrt-or-tomato

To see if your router is compatible with dd-wrt (and download it if it is), go to http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index, click "router database" and type the model number in to the search box.

Re: NAT's
 

Cheers for that Stuart, but now I read it I wonder If I can merely assign the MAC address reservation section of my router to hand out the same IP address to each machine every time?
This would mean not having to assign statip IP adddresses as the site says

"If you set static addresses, your connection will be listed as "Moderate" NAT for at least one of your consoles"

Quote
"In essence, it lets you provide a MAC address for a computer or other Ethernet-enabled device. When the network card in question attempts to get a DHCP lease for an IP address, the Static DHCP table takes over and will always assign the same IP address to the same device. This process has all the benefits of setting a static address, without having to change Windows or console settings"

So am I right in thinking this is the same as the address reservation is the same thing, and do you think UPNP would be best on or off?

Re: NAT's
 

Please see attached page from my routers section of this,

Re: NAT's
 

Gonna try this tonight so will post results later tonight,

Re: NAT's
 

Just to update should anyone be interested,

I was unable to get my router to have multiple Xbox 360's online with open NAT's......

I decided to replace my router for a DLINK 655 after receiving good advice from here
http://www.unofficialguidetolive.co....dir-655-review

This product worked striaght out of the box once I had loaded the correct microsoft certified firmware,

DeX