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-   -   Speeding soldier let off by judge. (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33664440)

frogstamper 28-04-2010 03:21
Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
At present soldiers and servicemen/women are rightly getting a very good press on the whole, but in my opinion this judge has gone to far, either we are all equal before the law or we accept a two teir legal system.
Maybe if the guy was doing a little over the limit and with points totted up he'd have lost his license, maybe then, "at a stretch" letting him off would be more understandable, but driving down the M40 at 143mph twice the limit and just getting a £400 fine is absolutely wrong.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...o_Afghanistan/

Flyboy 28-04-2010 03:27
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
This is probably one of the most galling aspects of this case.

Quote:
Edmondson was fined £300 and ordered to pay £80 costs and a £15 surcharge, and had six points endorsed on his licence.
Three hundred and ninety-five pounds, for driving like a maniac and only six points on his licence. I wonder, if it were me and I told the judge that if I couldn't drive my family would starve, I would be let off with just a ticking-off as well.

Sirius 28-04-2010 07:45
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35009291)
At present soldiers and servicemen/women are rightly getting a very good press on the whole, but in my opinion this judge has gone to far, either we are all equal before the law or we accept a two teir legal system.
Maybe if the guy was doing a little over the limit and with points totted up he'd have lost his license, maybe then, "at a stretch" letting him off would be more understandable, but driving down the M40 at 143mph twice the limit and just getting a £400 fine is absolutely wrong.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...o_Afghanistan/
Agreed

The law should be the same for everyone.

Peter_ 28-04-2010 08:03
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Absolutely pathetic he should have been banned as he knew it was wrong and tough if it lost him his new job, this just sends out the wrong message to people.

Xaccers 28-04-2010 08:30
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
How about armed forces having a seperate driving licence so if they lose their civilian one, they can still at least continue to drive military vehicles when on mission?

Peter_ 28-04-2010 10:13
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 35009321)
How about armed forces having a seperate driving licence so if they lose their civilian one, they can still at least continue to drive military vehicles when on mission?
If he lost his UK Licence as he should have then he would be prevented from driving on UK soil and we cannot have a second military licence that overrides that as that would be even more of a mockery.

Flyboy 28-04-2010 11:00
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Maybe I read the OP's article incorrectly, but I am pretty sure he was not a "bomb disposal expert," but a mechanic.

Earl of Bronze 28-04-2010 11:16
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
He should have faced the full punishment of the law, which prolly would also have resulted in a Court's Martial (though I have no idea what their charge would have been).

Pierre 28-04-2010 11:38
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
It was the right decision.

Take him out the picture and it's one less person who's willing to risk their life, who would have to be replaced.

One question to the "string him up brigade"

If he was banned, and kicked out the army would you go and take his place in Afghanistan????

No? thought not. ----- I know I wouldn't

peanut 28-04-2010 11:47
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35009386)
It was the right decision.

Take him out the picture and it's one less person who's willing to risk their life, who would have to be replaced.

One question to the "string him up brigade"

If he was banned, and kicked out the army would you go and take his place in Afghanistan????

No? thought not. ----- I know I wouldn't
So you prefer a tier system based on who you are etc. Regardless of the law etc, you believe some people should be beyond the law is that correct?

Flyboy 28-04-2010 11:52
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze (Post 35009382)
He should have faced the full punishment of the law, which prolly would also have resulted in a Court's Martial (though I have no idea what their charge would have been).
Conduct unbecoming, bring the name of the service into disrepute or making oneself unavailable for duty, perhaps?

zing_deleted 28-04-2010 12:21
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 35009321)
How about armed forces having a seperate driving licence so if they lose their civilian one, they can still at least continue to drive military vehicles when on mission?
I think that makes a degree of sense. It has cost the country a lot of cash to train him and he should still be allowed to drive for the army . As a civvie though he should have lost his licence

frogstamper 28-04-2010 12:22
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35009386)
It was the right decision.

Take him out the picture and it's one less person who's willing to risk their life, who would have to be replaced.

One question to the "string him up brigade"

If he was banned, and kicked out the army would you go and take his place in Afghanistan????

No? thought not. ----- I know I wouldn't
So if you currently do a very risky job your exempt from the law, not a system that I want to live under or I'd imagine many others would.
As regards the "string em up brigade" comment my god thats weak, he should have faced and received a ban like anybody else, or don't we live in a democracy anymore?

Peter_ 28-04-2010 12:39
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35009386)
It was the right decision.

Take him out the picture and it's one less person who's willing to risk their life, who would have to be replaced.

One question to the "string him up brigade"

If he was banned, and kicked out the army would you go and take his place in Afghanistan????

No? thought not. ----- I know I wouldn't
He is a soldier so he can still do his job without a driving licence all it means is that he cannot drive, how many serving soldiers actually drive.

No one is advocating "String him up" that is purely your imagination, the should not be one rule for him and another rule for you.

He broke the law with excessive speed and should not get away with such an outlandish offence.

Flyboy 28-04-2010 12:41
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35009386)
It was the right decision.

Take him out the picture and it's one less person who's willing to risk their life, who would have to be replaced.

One question to the "string him up brigade"

If he was banned, and kicked out the army would you go and take his place in Afghanistan????

No? thought not. ----- I know I wouldn't


I would say that were quite a few mechanics that would take his place.

Tuftus 28-04-2010 12:55
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35009401)
He broke the law with excessive speed and should not get away with such an outlandish offence.
But he did not get away with it did he. He was fined and had points added to his licence.

It may not have been the punishment you are looking for however he was tried in a court of law, found guilty and punished.

Ignitionnet 28-04-2010 12:57
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Unacceptable that he didn't lose his license.

Losing his license does not necessarily prejudice him doing his job, he can still drive on MoD property. Either way 143mph in a 50mph zone is totally unacceptable and dangerous, at that level of speed he's lucky to not be facing a dangerous driving / due care and attention charge

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuftus (Post 35009406)
It may not have been the punishment you are looking for however he was tried in a court of law, found guilty and punished.
Though not to standard sentencing guidelines - he was let off lightly when he should have been banned. 145% of speed limit is sufficient for a ban, he was doing 286%.

Quote:
Equivalent speed in a 70 mph limit 200.2 mph.
http://www.drivingban.co.uk/drivingb...bmit=Calculate

Peter_ 28-04-2010 13:01
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuftus (Post 35009406)
But he did not get away with it did he. He was fined and had points added to his licence.

It may not have been the punishment you are looking for however he was tried in a court of law, found guilty and punished.
It should be an automatic ban and you know it regardless of him being fined.

Tuftus 28-04-2010 13:10
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
My point was that he did not *get away with it* as you said.

Peter_ 28-04-2010 13:13
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuftus (Post 35009414)
My point was that he did not *get away with it* as you said.
He got away without getting a ban but was fined, he should have been banned.;)

Tuftus 28-04-2010 13:18
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35009417)
He got away without getting a ban but was fined, he should have been banned.;)
That is more accurate but do not forget about the 6 points, he will certainly feel that when he comes to renew his insurance. Which at his age and for that car will most certainly be astronomical in the first place.

Peter_ 28-04-2010 13:24
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuftus (Post 35009420)
That is more accurate but do not forget about the 6 points, he will certainly feel that when he comes to renew his insurance. Which at his age and for that car will most certainly be astronomical in the first place.
Oh he will feel the cost but a ban should have been handed down as well as a fine.

Next we will have couriers trying the same line.:p:

Pierre 28-04-2010 14:16
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 35009388)
So you prefer a tier system based on who you are etc. Regardless of the law etc, you believe some people should be beyond the law is that correct?
No, but in this case I'm prepared to accept the exception applied by the judge. As I understand it he needed the licence in order to be posted to Afghanistan.

He's a mechanic that repairs vehicles needed by our troops in order for them to be able to do their job. I'd rather he be out there doing what he does rather than troops having to use substandard equipment.

In my opinion on this occasion weighing up the balance he got it right.

I think a better judgement would have been to say sentence him with a defferred ban, say a 6 month ban, after, he returned from Afghanistan - I think that would have appeased everyone.

Peter_ 28-04-2010 14:54
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35009457)
No, but in this case I'm prepared to accept the exception applied by the judge. As I understand it he needed the licence in order to be posted to Afghanistan.

He's a mechanic that repairs vehicles needed by our troops in order for them to be able to do their job. I'd rather he be out there doing what he does rather than troops having to use substandard equipment.

In my opinion on this occasion weighing up the balance he got it right.

I think a better judgement would have been to say sentence him with a defferred ban, say a 6 month ban, after, he returned from Afghanistan - I think that would have appeased everyone.
Why would a ban stop him from driving in a war zone, you wonder if that was just used as an excuse to get off without a ban.

arcamalpha2004 28-04-2010 15:15
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 35009388)
So you prefer a tier system based on who you are etc. Regardless of the law etc, you believe some people should be beyond the law is that correct?

Sadly, we already have a tier system in place, it has been in place for years,with the highest respect, where have you been for so long?
It has always been the state saying do as I say not as I do.
Point in case, driving to work the other day, police car well over the speed limit goes past me, no blues on, why? because the driver obviously thinks that the uniform brings with it a priviledge to do anything they want.
Sorry to say this, good luck to the lad, there will be more people higher up the social and employment ladder breaking laws every day, laws that your average Joe has to obey.

Earl of Bronze 28-04-2010 15:43
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35009390)
Conduct unbecoming, bring the name of the service into disrepute or making oneself unavailable for duty, perhaps?
Doubtful if any of those would be cause....

I had a quick look online and found the following....

Quote:
Summary dealing deals with minor criminal and military offences alleged against

* private soldiers and Senior Non-Commissioned Officers
* Warrant Officers and officers

If you are accused of a minor criminal or military offence, a Commanding Officer may

* investigate the alleged offence

* conduct a summary hearing

* award limited punishments if the offence is proven

At any time before the summary hearing you can choose to be tried by Court-Martial if you do not want the Commanding Officer to deal with the case.

If the Commanding Officer finds the charge proven, they will award punishment after considering any mitigating circumstances.

The Commanding Officer has limited powers of punishment

* up to 28 days' detention (up to 60 days' detention if special permission is granted)

* fine of up to 28 days' pay

* a range of lesser penalties

Summary Appeal Court

All accused dealt with by summary hearing can appeal to the Summary Appeal Court, but must normally do so within 14 days of the date of the award.

The Summary Appeal Court consists of a judge advocate and two officers who will rehear the evidence. They may then uphold, quash or vary the Commanding Officer's finding and/or award.
On occasion I had to play escourt for OC's Orders where minor offences would be settled by the Squadron OC. So my guess would be that he'd face the above, rather than a Court's Martial....

peanut 28-04-2010 15:45
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004 (Post 35009485)
Sadly, we already have a tier system in place, it has been in place for years,with the highest respect, where have you been for so long?
It has always been the state saying do as I say not as I do.
Point in case, driving to work the other day, police car well over the speed limit goes past me, no blues on, why? because the driver obviously thinks that the uniform brings with it a priviledge to do anything they want.
Sorry to say this, good luck to the lad, there will be more people higher up the social and employment ladder breaking laws every day, laws that your average Joe has to obey.
Oh I know, from celebs to footballers etc always seem to escape with just a slap on the wrist etc. I asked this just as it was a soldier given with the excuse that he goes to war that it's ok for him to endanger his own and other people's lives. But I agree also about the 'uniform' thing as well.

Obviously it doesn't mean it's right, and all we can do is moan about it. I don't on the other hand see how it's justified in this case, a few mph over the limit maybe, but then it wouldn't be news would it, but at that speed and still get off, it's too blatant and it's rubbing our noses in it so to speak.

Xaccers 28-04-2010 17:18
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35009351)
If he lost his UK Licence as he should have then he would be prevented from driving on UK soil and we cannot have a second military licence that overrides that as that would be even more of a mockery.
What I mean is if the army are going to be a driver down for their needs, then that is detrimetal to them not him.
With an armed forces licence, if he is driving on legitimate armed forces business then he would be able to do that.
He'd also be able to have his civilian licence taken away, preventing him driving non-military vehicles legally.
At the moment we have the situation where he can still legally drive anything he could drive before he went to court.

Peter_ 28-04-2010 17:23
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 35009537)
What I mean is if the army are going to be a driver down for their needs, then that is detrimetal to them not him.
With an armed forces licence, if he is driving on legitimate armed forces business then he would be able to do that.
He'd also be able to have his civilian licence taken away, preventing him driving non-military vehicles legally.
At the moment we have the situation where he can still legally drive anything he could drive before he went to court.
Regardless of job his licence should have been revoked as we cannot have double standards, it is to late here but may set a precedent of military drivers using their job as an excuse not to lose their licences.

If it was you or me our licence would be gone regardless of job and the same should have applied here.

Xaccers 28-04-2010 17:28
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35009542)
Regardless of job his licence should have been revoked as we cannot have double standards, it is to late here but may set a precedent of military drivers using their job as an excuse not to lose their licences.

If it was you or me our licence would be gone regardless of job and the same should have applied here.
Several "normal" people have kept their licence in exchange for a higher fine or more points due to their "normal" jobs.
Introduce an armed forces licence and there would be no reason not to take away their civilian licence then.

Maggy 28-04-2010 17:33
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35009542)
Regardless of job his licence should have been revoked as we cannot have double standards, it is to late here but may set a precedent of military drivers using their job as an excuse not to lose their licences.

If it was you or me our licence would be gone regardless of job and the same should have applied here.
Quote:
The court heard the 20-year-old is about to embark on a tour of Afghanistan in mid June, where he will be carrying out repair work to British vehicles damaged by roadside bombs.
I'm not excusing what he did but he's not being let off just because he's a soldier but because he can help to save our lad's lives in Afghanistan. I think that the judge was in a very difficult position myself.Personally, if him doing his job means more of our soldiers are protected and survive and the fact that no one was killed during his stupid escapade I think you should cut the judge some slack.

Flyboy 28-04-2010 17:36
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuftus (Post 35009406)
But he did not get away with it did he. He was fined and had points added to his licence.

It may not have been the punishment you are looking for however he was tried in a court of law, found guilty and punished.
Perhaps, but I would have at least expected the same punishment as everybody else gets for such an offence.

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35009407)
Unacceptable that he didn't lose his license.

Losing his license does not necessarily prejudice him doing his job, he can still drive on MoD property. Either way 143mph in a 50mph zone is totally unacceptable and dangerous, at that level of speed he's lucky to not be facing a dangerous driving / due care and attention charge
I do believe that is what he was charged with, but bargained down to a mere speeding charge.

Tuftus 28-04-2010 17:43
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35009552)
Perhaps, but I would have at least expected the same punishment as everybody else gets for such an offence.
I have already clarified the point I was making in post 20 ;)

Damien 28-04-2010 17:56
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35009463)

Years ago I got a 14 day ban and £280 fine for doing 81 in a 50 (Road used to be a 70) dual carriage way. IIRC 30+ over the limit is an automatic ban?
So doing 100 on the Motorway would do ya? People speed all the time of the motorway I would be surprised if they got automatic bans. Actually that might make sense. Is there some leeway on the motorway though because honestly people do not keep to 70 unless you want to be in the left-most lane..

martyh 28-04-2010 19:06
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
my ex brother inlaw was laying tarmac 4yrs ago and is now in a wheel chair with brain damage thanks to a speeding motorist going through roadworks in ireland .If this idiot thinks he should get preferential treatment just because he is in the army then he shouldn't be in the army and if the judge thinks the same then he shouldn't be a judge .He should most definately have lost his licence as per the guidlines ,he could have still done his job

Tuftus 29-04-2010 16:03
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35009569)
So doing 100 on the Motorway would do ya? People speed all the time of the motorway I would be surprised if they got automatic bans. Actually that might make sense. Is there some leeway on the motorway though because honestly people do not keep to 70 unless you want to be in the left-most lane..
ORLY?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/n...re/8651727.stm

Hom3r 29-04-2010 16:20
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35009407)
Unacceptable that he didn't lose his license.

Losing his license does not necessarily prejudice him doing his job, he can still drive on MoD property. Either way 143mph in a 50mph zone is totally unacceptable and dangerous, at that level of speed he's lucky to not be facing a dangerous driving / due care and attention charge

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------



Though not to standard sentencing guidelines - he was let off lightly when he should have been banned. 145% of speed limit is sufficient for a ban, he was doing 286%.



http://www.drivingban.co.uk/drivingb...bmit=Calculate
As a laugh I tried a provision license driving at 80 at 70 motorway, and it didn't comment on the fact the license was wrong.

I then tried full/clean license, motorway and 253mph (Bugatti Veyron) and it said

*** The speed alleged is in excess of the fastest production car available in the UK. You may wish to challenge the speed alleged by pleading not guilty! ***

Spectato 29-04-2010 21:58
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
There should be no exceptions. It doesn’t matter if he’s a soldier, if you break the law, you should suffer the consequences. This sets a very bad example.
Nuff said.


How many 20 year olds could even afford insurance on a Focus ST, let alone the car itself?
Quote:
.... twice the speed limit on the M40 in his Ford Focus ST
Wonder how wealthy and 'well connected' mater and pater are?

Earl of Bronze 30-04-2010 00:31
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
If he's a private soldier, single and living on base, his basic wage will be circa £16k a year. Take out tax, NI, and the deductions for living in barracks and food.... Take home approx £10 or £11k.... /shrug.

So, no need for a rich mommy and daddy to buy him a sporty car....

frogstamper 30-04-2010 01:55
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35009569)
So doing 100 on the Motorway would do ya? People speed all the time of the motorway I would be surprised if they got automatic bans. Actually that might make sense. Is there some leeway on the motorway though because honestly people do not keep to 70 unless you want to be in the left-most lane..
I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty certain that exceeding 100mph on a motorway constitutes an automatic three month ban.
Maybe Derek could clarify?

Derek 30-04-2010 07:02
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35010934)
I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty certain that exceeding 100mph on a motorway constitutes an automatic three month ban.
Maybe Derek could clarify?
AFAIK the only driving offence with an automatic ban is dangerous driving which is what most hugely excessive speeding cases are dealt with by.

Flyboy 30-04-2010 13:17
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35010934)
I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty certain that exceeding 100mph on a motorway constitutes an automatic three month ban.
Maybe Derek could clarify?
I don't think a ban is automatic at those speeds, but I do believe it removes the option for a police officer to offer a fixed penalty notice and to have the case dealt with by the court.

Pierre 30-04-2010 13:25
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35011118)
I don't think a ban is automatic at those speeds, but I do believe it removes the option for a police officer to offer a fixed penalty notice and to have the case dealt with by the court.
Correct, as I am aware if it is 25miles over the speed limit it is an automatic summons.

It is up to the Magisrates.

A couple of years ago I was caught doing 86 in a 50, and got 6pts and £200 fine.

Damien 30-04-2010 14:04
Re: Speeding soldier let off by judge.
 
Surprising. I am sure some people most do speeds of above 80/85+ on a motorway as 75+ often is the middle lane.


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