I wonder how far this will go
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8arq1...325&feature=iv


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimGM2mIQjA

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Hopefully as far as possible. The magistrates and JP showed total disrespect for the law issuing the order before the case had even been heard, that ignores their actions during the case.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

That was really interesting. I don't know who was more confused, me or everybody else :)

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

that was pure class

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

they seem to have kept it very quiet up till now

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

I wonder what the council did next?
I doubt they'll say "ok, you've got us, it's a fair cop, don't pay your outstanding council tax"
Sent in the bailiffs?

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

That would depend on of the Liability order could be proven as legal or not. Without a legal liability order the bailiffs have no power. The whole thing shows how wrong it is though with the order being signed before the case is heard . There is seriously something wrong with that

It was nice to see the old bill doing what was right though

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

I think they were overwhelmed. they wasn't getting much feedback to tell them who's right and who's wrong, and just being cautious with the man that swallowed a law book.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Unfortunately bailiffs don't seem to always care about the legality of their orders.

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What a total twassock. As far as I am aware, common law is not something that supersedes statute.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

+ of course the fee to the councils solicitor who charged more than the writ was for, what was her need to be there or be paid if the order had already been issued, fraud and waste are endemic at all levels in this country and it's really starting to pish me of.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Hopefully they get done for filming inside a court without the relevant authorisation.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

I was thinking that too - and also found it odd what he says at the start, that there's no compulsion to pay Council Tax :confused:

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

From my perspective, and I'll be the first to admit I'm a tiny bit biased on the side of the whole power of the court thing, I think it's someone who had a few too many and got involved in an argument about ancient laws and came up with the bright idea that simply refusing to stand up in court removes him from its powers.

Personally I'd give the court officials a taser and anyone who is able to stand and refuses gets a shock to assist them out their seats. :)

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

If it was all BS then what does come out of this is that neither the Magistrates or the Police know enough about the law. If what he was saying is true the the Police knew the score and the Magistrates were unsure.

Surely if the guy was talking BS then in all that time someone in the courts ,specially the prosecutor who you assume has a law degree and with such would be the highest qualified in law in the room should have been able to sort it out and arrests be made

If the guy was to turn out to be right and tasers were used then it would be someone like you who would have to arrest the taser user for assault

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

My first thought was also about the filming inside a magistrates court

What he is doing is conveniently "stealing" parts of law and trying to apply them, inappropriately, to other parts of the law, for example, the legal fiction principal. The police (and to some degree the magistrates themselves), who generally know very little about law, are totally flummoxed, as they really don't know which way to turn. For a start, from what I understand, commercial court is a sub-division of the Queens bench, with in turn is a division of the High Court. The magistrates court is not part of the High Courts of Justice. As far as I know commercial court does not deal with taxation, it deals with contract and corporate law.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Is council tax actual taxation.. It goes to the council not the national treasury???

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

This is a Magistrates Court action bought on by someone refusing to pay Council Tax.
I have seen people mention that this guy is using Common Law and it being Ancient.

What do you think Council Tax is?
If you think about it its origins date back to the 13th century and the Magna Carta. Farmers and Peasants were heavily taxed by the rich land owners.

So if you want to argue Common Law is Ancient then the idea of Council Tax is even older

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

This is the crux of the problem and is a fine example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The "layman" had read somewhere that he could get away with this and gave it a try. The magistrates, who are mostly laypeople as well, do not know enough about the law to ab able to say for certain whether what this person is saying is true and perhaps in the interests of justice are willing to consider that he may be right. They then used their powers of authority on the court to have him removed. The "layman" threatens the security guard with legal action if he tries to eject him from the court (another assumption I am making, is that they are quite entitled to use reasonable force to achieve this) and he asks the magistrates if this was true, but they now too wound up to make a reasonable judgement. I also suspect they are doing their best to protect members of the public (or even just themselves) from being involved in, what could potentially turn into, a riotous protest.

I would love to see what the aftermath of this incident was. I would suspect (more of a hope really), that after some in depth consultation with lawyers, proficient in constitutional law, they will plonk more summonses on these people's doorsteps and prosecute to the fullest.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

The point is, that his assertion that the magistrates court is a commercial court is spurious. I am not actually sure whether taxation is solely limited to the national exchequer, but I doubt it.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

After forcing myself to watch and listen to it and resisting the urge to throw myself off the nearest tall building my impression remains that the 'freemen' are full of self-importance and the cops didn't want to create a scene.

The courts powers and responsibilities have evolved over time and they seem to be harking back to ages past. Next they'll be killing Welshmen with bows and arrows within city walls and claiming thats allowed.

Oh and am I the only one who finds it amusing that it's an English freeman causing the fuss in a Welsh court?

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

There was a perfectly good lawyer there charging £400 an hour for in this case doing nothing, instead of standing there grinning like an idiot she could have at least phoned her office to find out if anyone knows, mind you that might have been what she was grinning at, the prospect of charging another few hundred quid to find out for them.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Yep. Ask me about the misuse of drugs act 1971, the road traffic act 1988 or common law crimes in Scots law like assault, theft etc. and you'll get an answer thats probably 100% correct.

Ask me about constitutional matters and authority of the courts and I'll be running screaming for the hills.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

I thought he meant commercial as in people involved make money. Magistrates get paid etc? I didnt think he meant commercial like county courts etc

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Don't think Magistrates do get paid...

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

see what you said there? look at the crimes that are part of Common Law. All the really important ones are part of Common Law, IE Murder, Assault,Theft. Lesser crimes are part of constitutional law so it does look to me like the greater of the laws is Common Law.

There is a chance that this guy is totally correct in what he did under Common Law and if he was fair play. Afterall Magistraits are just regular Joes supposedly picked because of their impeccable character etc but if they do not know the law then who are they to law judgement upon us.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Actually no, they were taxed by the monarch of the time and not by the landowners and the landowners could not impose a tax only rent/rates..

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/04/5.gif

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

a quick google supports that so I dunno then

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If he had bothered to research his little rant a bit more, he might have got away with relating it to the chancery division (still wouldn't make it correct), but that doesn't sound as "corrupt" as calling it the "commercial" court. But it still stands that the magistrate's court is not the High Court, it is a district court.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

you do realise that only a little over 20 years ago what you paid the council was called rates do you not? it was then called Poll Tax which fell flat on its arse and is now called Council Tax. Does the fact that you end up in magistrates court not demonstrate that its not really a tax at all? but still the same Rates as you mentioned that dates back 800 years

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Scots law is completely different to English/Welsh law. There are plenty of crimes up here that are pretty important covered by statute.
AFAIK almost all crimes, if not all, are covered by statute in Englandshire.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Yes and the rates went to the council same as the council tax... hence the layperson took this stance.. If it was a real tax and not just a local charge that's supported through parliment then he wouldn't of been able to do what he did

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

well Murder has to be the most important law of all and thats common law so thats enough for me lol

TBH I know nothing about the law I just see this as a little guy standing up to what I see as an out of date corrupt system and I thought fair play to him.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

Yes, but she would know very little about constitutional matters and the how the authority of the courts relates to ancient and common law. But then, she would have got paid either way, but I don't think a local council will pay staff solicitors four hundred pounds an hour (another little trick by the narrator to suggest misuse of public money). That said, if this was prosecuted further, it would have been an option to charge the defendant, as well as his very misguided counsel (and quite rightly so), the full costs of the prosecution anyway.

---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Oh, we are so in sync here, it's frightening. :LOL:

Throughout this, I was forever wandering, why are they proudly declaring their Englishness in a Welsh court.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 ----------

I think this was his intention, to suggest that there was some nefarious profit being made by the courts.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

It's not an issue to be English in Wales you know, thought someone of your knowledge would have been aware of that? English people do use our courts too.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

That was not the point. It was their Englishness which they were professing in a Welsh court. As though, because they were English, they were exempt from Welsh jurisdiction.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

At no point did they give the impression the fact they were English made them any different from a Welsh person in court. English law covers Welsh courts too and just about the only difference in our courts that I can think of is we can demand a trial take place in Welsh.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

I did not suggest that what they were saying was right, it is just the impression the whole thing gave me. Not just from the video footage, but from the comments attached to the web page.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

dont think there is any English Welsh thing going on

they are trying to not recognize the court by not standing as supposedly these courts can only work if you consent to be tried in them which there does seem to be some legal standing for ( no pun intended but its funny any way lol )

i dont have an opinion either way but its quite fascinating that no one has tried to do anything about the filming or the disruption to the court if there is no real lawful way of doing what they did

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

I think they would need to identify the person who filmed the case and I cant see that happening.


As pertaining to the law, if a law no matter how old has not been superseded then its still in fact law. There may be thousands of "olde" laws of the land that could still be used for and against judicial, government and monarchy. All it takes is a guy\girl with enough smarts to dig up the relevant law & make sure its still in force.

Re: I wonder how far this will go
 

not saying there isn't thats why i am wondering how far it will go ( and i think they know who filmed most of it ;) )