Christian terrorists
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8593975.stm

Guess we can't keep saying it's exclusive to Islam now.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Ah, but are they christians?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Um.....read the link?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

They're Americans. they don't count.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I dunno Russ, it doesn't say they adhere to the requirements of being real christians.
What's your impression of them?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I'm guessing the BBC didn't consider that relevant.

I can see you're itching for an argument tonight. Bunch of potential killers.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I'm interested in whether you'd consider them christians.
Just as many muslims do and don't consider islamic terrorists muslims.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I don't know them personally but I trust the BBC's reporting.

In any case I don't see what my impression of them has any relevance unless you're pursuing a long time and worn-out agenda?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Would that be a no then? You don't consider them christians?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Does it matter what Russ personally thinks? They are terrorists (allegedly) that call themselves Christian...

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Wow you're really itching for an argument tonight aren't you? Read my posts again, I haven't given any indication that I don't consider them Christians. I have no way of finding out but as I said if you read the words I just posted, if the BBC reports them as being Christians then I trust their judgement. I have no way of knowing (or caring) if they are genuinely Christians.

Find something to argue with in that?

To Xaccers it does, greatly.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Sounds like one of those 'life get a' puzzles...

Re: Christian terrorists
 

If anyone is itching for an argument (as usual) it's you Russ, as demonstrated by Daniel's quote I would say.
As I said, with regards to Islamic terrorists, there is often an accusation from outsiders that all muslims support their actions as being in line with their religion, despite it being patently obvious that many are horrified and ashamed that such actions would be taken in the name of their god.
I was hoping that as a prominant christian on the board, you could give your opinion on the matter, considering the actions they had taken and were planning to take, especially as you're the one who brought the topic to light.
It would have been a good example to expand on, showing that whilst a terrorist group may claim to represent a religion, their actions clearly show they do not, without anti-islamists doing their usual of tarring all with the same brush.
But if you'd prefer an argument, I'm sure one of the other members would be happy to oblige you.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Oh sorry I didn't realise you were asking me to comment on their actions.

For some reason I had the impression you were more interested in whether or not I considered them to be Christians. Apologies, not sure where I had that idea from.

Maybe posts 2, 5, 7 and 9 gave me that impression.

Their actions? Deplorable and inexcusable. I don't know anyone (Christian or otherwise) who condones this sort of behaviour.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Can someone comit those actions and still be a christian?
Just in case, I suppose I should make it clear that's an open question aimed at anyone.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

We've all got free will, you know this. Christians aren't immune to screw-ups on any level.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I'm pretty sure Russ did not start this thread in an attempt to glorify Christian terrorism. In fact, I suspect he meant to highlight the fact there are nutters everywhere. This could have been a good thread. Pity it was derailed from post #2.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

:clap:

You kind of get used to it after a while. About 4 years ago.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

What is it with these morons? are they so deranged that the best they can make of their lives is mass murder and mayhem, in the pathetic belief that this is what "their god" wants?
Its amazing that whatever religion these nutters manipulate and pervert its only them that really knows what god wants, and that invariably its death and destruction...meted out by them of course.:nutter:

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Then maybe you are at fault for not making your meaning any clearer because I have to say it wasn't in anyway as clear as you have made several posts later.

I had thought your obsession with Russ's faith and intentions had mellowed somewhat lately..seems I was wrong sadly.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

As far as I'm aware, end timer's in the US are invariably members of ecstatic evangelical christian groups/churches. Which have been making great inroads into the US religious scene over the last 20 years or so. These right wing fascists are the sort of people who murder doctors because they believe abortion is murder. Picket the funerals of dead american servicemen and women, who are being buried with the honour their sacrifice demands. But going a step further they are helping Jewish fascists in their attempts to breed a Red Cow, and wait with bated breath for the Jews to rebuild the second temple....

Nutjobs of the word unite, while waiting for the slaughter that comes after the rapture.... :rolleyes:

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Wasnt the IRA so called Christian ?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Sorry, I appologise, I didn't realise "Are they really christians?" was such a complex question which requires at least 10 lines of explainatory notes.
I will endeavour to use words of fewer syllables for you next time :rolleyes:
Can you direct me to the new forum rule where all questions need to be explained in great depth? By this question (which are things which are asked) I mean the updated list of forum rules which now say that all questions must be explained so that all members can understand what is actually being asked, a I've looked and cannot see such rule.
Or is "Are they really christians?" actually a valid and on-topic question?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

No - most members of the IRA were Catholic, but the IRA was not a Catholic organisation (more Marxist).

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Nooooo! You've gone and confused Margret again now!


And many do not consider them to be christians.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

It is a valid question but when there is an obvious hidden meaning behind it people might get upset.

From the link the headline states 'Christian militants' which really should give you a clue that yes, they are christians.

They might not belong to a specific church but they class themselves as christians. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of splinters of christianity out there and some don't agree with the others teachings. I'd say if they claim to be christian then yes they are. The same way if someone claims to be muslim then they are.

---------- Post added at 09:07 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

I've an aunt who belongs to a certain church. They believe unless you are a member of that exact church you are going to hell and have a special dislike of catholics.

She doesn't consider anyone outwith her church to be christians so is she right?

Basically unless I missed a meeting you don't need special permission to be counted as a christian and don't need to carry a special ID card saying you are christian.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I wouldn't call it off-topic really, but I think we'd have to question your motives when you repeatedly ask one forum member for his specific opinion on whether his considers them Christians. It makes it look like you've got some sort of petty and pointless agenda against that forum member, however I'm sure you'll confirm that's not the case.

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

And so what?

Does that change what the IRA (and the nutters in the link I posted) have done? You really need to look at the bigger picture here.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

But margret said the reason wasn't obvious, hence the need to explain what I thought was a simple question. Maybe it's your keen police nose at work?

Is it enough to just label yourself though? Isn't being a member of a religion more than that? An adherance to certain core attributes for example?
If I claimed I was Hindu, would that make me one?

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 ----------

Actally Russ, my first post wasn't directed at anyone, hence why I didn't quote you.
You picked up the thread and entered into a conversation with me hence why I quoted you in my posts directed to you.
I realised your mistake which is why I edited a later post to make it clear so you wouldn't be confused and think I'm interested in you specifically.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Technically they are not terrorists. they didn't actually blow anyone or anything up.

Typical nutters. blaming it on their imagination as usual.

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

I don't think they are Christians. they're just another bunch of nutters who use religion as a cover for why they do it, and for when they get sentenced later on.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Riiiight...I'm sure other people reading the thread will see it differently. Anyway I'm slightly confused about why you're interested in whether they're Christians or not, when if a thread pops up regarding Islamic terrorists I can't say I've noticed you repeatedly asking "are they really Muslims".

I can't see what difference it makes about who or what they claim to be - they are terrorists and deserved to be treated as such.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Regardless of whether there was an underlying motive to Xaccers post, I do thing that he has raised a valid argument in that when muslim terrorists are mentioned there is a general condemnation of the muslim faith, in its believers interpretation of the Koran, and that the non militants in the faith does not do enough to speak up against extremists. To be honest I have not heard of many terrorist groups where Christianity has been a focal point in the terrorists profiling - but should we now stop trusting Christianss because of the actions of a few (albeit a almost non existent minority). Can the same arguments that we have seen against Islam be applied to other religions (and why arent they).

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Whereas I agree with what you say to a point, I can't remember any threads involving Islamic terrorists where people have questioned if they "really are" Muslim or not.

You know yourself that most people will not apply the same consideration to Islam as they do to Christianity.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

It's not really the same though is it.
these 'terrorists' are in the USA along with all the rest of the nuts using religion as an excuse. they are no threat to the UK.
The terrorists that we have in the UK that are a threat. are Mulims.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

In my opinion the question is not put forward because quite a few assume that they (the terrorists) really are Muslims.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to score points or throw cheap shots - I just think its an interesting argument/discussion.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I know what you're saying - but the subject of whether the terrorists actually are Christian/Muslim/whatever has never been raised before, I just question why it came up now. Perhaps Xaccers had a moment of inspiration and posted a vital question that everyone has been wondering but never had the courage to ask.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I think it was a genuine question really.
what is a Muslim that isn't a Muslim? :confused:

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I didn't say it wasn't a genuine question, I just wondered why, after countless threads over the years about Islamic terrorist almost on a weekly basis is the question of whether these people are what they claim to be is being asked now.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Probably because nobody knows what a Muslim terrorist is that is not a Muslim terrorist.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

:confused:

Re: Christian terrorists
 

If it was on the news that it's been reported that a group of Muslim terrorists had blown up 10 downing street. who or what are they if they are not Muslims?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I wonder if they are following any instructions from the bible, or are they just a bunch of thugs using religion as an excuse. Islamic terrorists in contrast carry out terrorism by following quotes written in the holy quran.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

But who is saying they're not Muslims? Who are we to make that decision about them? And would that really be the prevailing issue?

They're following what they take as written in The Book of Revelations.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

They are Muslims. everyone knows that they're Muslims. but nobody knows whether someone who says they're a Christian terrorist really are Christians.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Well you are very good at giving triple meanings to simple words.Seems I have to get the thesaurus out now to really get at what 'are they really Christians?' actually means in the world of xaccers..

Re: Christian terrorists
 

:nutter:

Keep taking that medication, I'm sure it'll kick in soon.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Thanks Russ, you know religion is not my strong point. Even though I was in church a few weeks ago, but that's another story.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

There could be a 'familiarity' aspect to this also. The majority of us brought up in UK have grown up either in or around the Christian faith and are fairly intimately familiar with it's writings and teachings. So when you look at a group like these in the USA it's easy to see that they are not following mainstream Christian values and thus to denounce them as false.

For those of us less familiar with Islam it's very hard to make that same judgement.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Could you clarify, please?

Are you stating that any Muslim who states they are carrying out a terrorist action in the name of Islam is definitely Muslim, but if it someone states they are Christian, and intend to carry out a terrorist action in the name of their religion, they might not be Christian?

That's how your statement reads to me, but I may be wrong, which is why I am requesting clarification.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Typical Russ :D

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------

Yes. who or what is a person who is assumed to be Muslim, if they are not a Muslim?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

My request for clarification referred to your point "nobody knows whether someone who says they're a Christian terrorist really are Christians" - but you probably knew that.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Another fairly decent thread on its way to ruin.........

Re: Christian terrorists
 

yep, I have to keep going back to page 1 to remind myself what it was all about. Now my heads turning to mush trying to get my head round "if someone is x but not an x what are they"

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I don't know this Christian group's true motive as I've never heard of them before but as I see it, and I'm happy to be proven wrong, they are End Timers, that is Christians who believe what is written in Revelations is true in that one day all the Christians will be taken from the Earth by Jesus in what is called "The Rapture". Those left behind will soon enter a 7 year 'tribulation period' which will start off with 18 month of peace and relative calm after what will no doubt be a cataclismic period in human history. At this time a world leader will rise up and promise peace, he'll be charismatic and seen as a leader for change (imagine what Blair was like in 1997 and Barak Obama in his first week in office). This person will turn out to be the antichrist but is loved so much that no-one will possibly think of that. In secret he will try to turn society against Christians (after the rapture it is expected many will realise what has happened and turn to the bible and become christians) to the point that all Christians will be persecuted and put to death. There's a lot more to it (google 'end times' and 'left behind') but this is what I think is the crux of the matter for this terrorist group.

I think they're preparing for what they think is the war against Christians. For those who seem to consider my views very important, I disagree with what they're doing.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I seem to recall posting in a thread about muslims and bringing up that I was pretty sure they're not to harm women, children, the old and trees, so breaching that means you aren't following the teachings of Islam.
I also recall posting and witnessing posts where people have said that moderate muslims consider such actions as unislamic.
Of course, when you're being so unjustifiably negative about things, I suppose it's easy to have missed that.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

if they look like a Muslim. yes. this is assuming that the Muslim terrorist looks like he was born in a Muslim country.

yes.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Just goes to show: There are nutters who will use *any* religion as an excuse for violence..

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Like the UK 7/7 bombers, who were all born in the UK? Or Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber, who was born in the UK?
OK, Gary, let's try it a different way - if we swap the religions around from your original post, does it still make sense?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

No. because the Muslims that are saying they are Muslims are actual Muslims.
when a white person who doesn't look like he or she is from a certain ethnic minority. no distinguishing features about that person that would say they are from a certain religion/race/culture. then one can doubt that they are actual Christians.

What is someone who says they are a Christian, but not actually a Christian?
What is someone who says they are a Muslim, but not actually a Muslim?

in the case of the Muslim who looks like a Muslim. is there a strong possibility that he may be Catholic?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Maggy checks the date..two days early for April Fool..scratches head and wonders if she's fallen through some sort of vortex that distorts perceptions and reality?

She also wonders how a thread about CHRISTIAN terrorists keeps coming back to Muslims...:confused:

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I still feel like I've dropped down the White Rabbit's Burrow...

Re: Christian terrorists
 

So, are they the People's Front of Judea - or the Judean People's Front? - I get confused

Re: Christian terrorists
 

A practical example of why stereotyping, be it by ethnicity, religion, accent, or whatever, can mislead.

When I was appointed Programme Manager on a large Mobile Comms provider's Data Warehouse Programme, I telephone interviewed the KPMG consultants who would be assisting me in delivering the Programme.

One of those was a gentleman called Saul Judah; when we had our telephone conversation, I discovered he had a broad Glaswegian accent, as well as the fact he was very well-versed on Data Warehousing. When we all met up for a meal (initial team-building exercise), I also discovered he was Asian (his family were originally from Goa), and his religion was Catholic - this was due the fact his family (when it was in Goa) anglicised their name to one of their neighbours (a Mr Saul Judah, and the forename was given to the eldest son of each generation), and had taken up the religion of the European settlers of Goa, who were mainly Dutch Catholics.

So, Saul had a Jewish name, looked like one of Gary's Muslims, was Catholic, and had a Glaswegian accent (born and bred) - perhaps things aren't so simple and clear-cut as some would make out?

---------- Post added at 15:49 ---------- Previous post was at 15:48 ----------

Splitter!!!

Re: Christian terrorists
 

But he wasn't involved in any terrorist activities?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Unlike the Christian terrorists who are the subject of this thead, no (not to the best of my knowledge).

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Maggy. I would hazard a guess that the tread keeps comming back to Muslim terrorists, because the vast majority of religious terrorism, particularly over the last 10 years or so, has been carried out by Muslims....

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I wonder why the USA seems to be such a breeding ground for these extremists?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Do we know enough about Islam to call them muslims though?
I'm pretty sure someone who blows up doctors at an abortion clinic unrepentantly, isn't what I'd call a christian, I know of no passage in the scriptures which justify such actions.
My studies of the Koran are not as indepth, but I am sure that part of the jihad states no harm should come to women, children, elderly or trees, which would suggest that terrorists who were brought up in islam but attack women children and the elderly are not actually muslim despite their claims.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Because they blend in with the rest of the psychopaths.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

This has to be a wind-up....right?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Probably.
The 7 July 2005 London bombings, also known as 7/7, were a series of coordinated suicide attacks on London's public transport system during the morning rush hour. The bombings were carried out by four British Muslim men,

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re: Christian terrorists
 

That brings us neaty back to the point I was originally making. They're reported as being of a religion because they claim to be, is that claim valid?
Look at it another way, can an athiest be an athiest if he calls himself that but actually believes in a god?

Can we as outsiders say "hang on a minute, to be X you must at least do Y and definitely not do Z therefore you're not actually X"
It would help fight against people tarring with the same brush, wouldn't it?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

These 4 worshipped in the mosque before the event. so there's X?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

They blew up children and women, there's Z.
Similarly with the "christians" in Russ' link.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

i think you have to look at this from the religious nutters point of view .They usually believe that blowing up buildings ,buses ,whatever is in the best interest of their religion and nothing will change their mind shot of a brain transplant ,so in that respect yes they are christian ,muslim or whatever .However if living 100% by the scriptures of any religion is the only way to be a christian or muslim or whatever then not many people will be considered christian ,muslim or whatever

basically imo it all boils down to psychopathic nutjobs justifying their actions with religion,as in most religions there are a million different interpretations depending on which day of the week it is which could justify blowing up buildings or buses for any nutjob that wants to

DISCLAIMER.....not all religious people are nutjobs ..felt i had to mention that in view of the way this thread has developed :)

Re: Christian terrorists
 

And the Hutarees, who are the point of this thread, state on their site So there is X also (by your reasoning).

Re: Christian terrorists
 

No. it's just their belief.
what is your reasoning?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Their belief that they are christians, or their belief as christians?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

trick question ;)
it's the same

if you asume that it is their belief as christians then they must be christians
if you assume that they believe they are christians then it would naturally be their belief as christians

Re: Christian terrorists
 

That would suggest that all it takes to be a christian is to believe you are one.
I guess applying that to Judaism and Islam would save a lot of pain in childhood :shocked:
Does all it take to be a Jew is the belief that you are one?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

That one.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Aren't there also certain ceremonies and tenets you have to adhere too before becoming a christian for example?
If so it is not enough to just believe you are of a religion, don't you have to act it as well?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

quite correct imo ..the trouble is the religious nutjobs out there believe 100%that they are acting in the best interest of their religion so as far as they are concerened they are acting within the tenets of their religion so ,as i said earlier,in that respect they are members of their faith

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Gary, you wouldn't recognise reasoning if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing 'Reasoning is here again'. .

With your consummate deployment of non-sequiters, tortuous use of language, equivocation, non-recognition of contradictory statements, fallacies of presumption and ambiguity - you should be a politician. :D

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Seeing that the thread title is Christian Terrorists then its pretty impossible to post without an infraction.
Are you sober ?

my silly view is a terrorist is just that, they use whatever religion as an excuse and a reason to satisfy there tiny minds, this guy is one.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Thanks for the explanation.

I understood that Revelations was somewhat 'obscure' compared to the rest of the bible, it seems that both religions (Islam and Christian) contain the ammunition for those that wish to use it. (Or perhaps I should say misuse to keep the peace):D

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

I don't believe it's that simple.

The USA has a much larger population and a higher percentage of practising Christians compared to the UK. (I'm sure Google would back that up) Compared with the amount of overall practising Christians in the USA, the number of Christian extremists they breed is not worth considering.

However, if we consider the number of people in the UK who follow Islam and then compare the number of hate preachers it would be more accurate to say percentage wise the UK is a breeding ground for extremists.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Re extremists in the US of A, you may find this of interest - the connection is that I think you will find most of them regard themselves as Christians.

SPLC Hate Map

Re: Christian terrorists
 

Very interesting links, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of 'Christian' mentioned apart from references to a couple of Christian pastors/leaders. I think what's lacking when trying to understand these groups for me is 'what drives them', are they all driven by the same goal. In the case of Islamic terrorists the goal is clear, all groups are working for the same end result.

I will take my time and digest the Hate Map link.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

On, what I hope is a related note I have a question that has been asked in several books I've read over the last 2 years or so.

The question asked was as follows.... Who shows the greater faith, the believer who kills (and perhaps dies in the act) as their holy book requires ? Or the believer who does not kill as their holy book instructs ?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I'm not sure I understand the question ... could you rephrase it?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I read it as 'a muslim that believes that killing in the name of Islam is the right thing to do, or the Christian that does not kill as the bible says not to'

I may be wrong.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I guess the question is based around the Christian 'Thou shalt not kill' commandment in contrast to the Islamic quote instructing to convert or kill the unbeliever.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

The bible has some fairly intolerant parts in it as well - link1 Link2

And the quote below seems to reflect the Islamic quote.

Re: Christian terrorists
 

I suppose that means the 10 commandments thing is a load of baloney then?

Re: Christian terrorists
 

No