BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Yes sir.

The key part for Virgin is this:

Be interesting to see how Virgin react to the now inevitable pressure. BT opening up their duct network leaves Virgin in a precarious place of looking like the 'bad guy' for trying to keep their ducting and network to themselves. Indeed in Paris ducting is open and there are multiple fibre operators. European law is gearing towards requiring open ducting and Virgin are dead set against offering wholesale access let alone access to their physical assets.

The obvious defence is that BT's network was built with public money which in the case of a lot of the ducting is true, but also true is that that network was purchased with private money. VM cannot claim to be impoverished, they are paying down their debt, have a great debt - EBITDA ratio, and are a profitable company now in terms of actual cash flow.

I can't see a problem with this and would very much like to see VM along with BT and other operators open up their ducting to one another. It would inevitably improve choice and the quality of our services as in some areas at least operators would be diving into VM's ducting with fibre optics and supplying full fibre to the home giving some real competition.

Thoughts?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I can see why Virgin want to keep their network theirs!!!

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

nor can i open it up like BT/LLU and earn a percentage for each line... simples

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Well...........not so simples if it has capacity issues, but hey, its all good. :)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

So can I though I don't agree with it.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Will BT only offer to Open theirs if VM do the same. Not fair if VM can access BT duct but they cant access VM's?!?!?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

No - they are going to open up their network anyway but they will certainly use that they are opening up their network to try and prod the powers that be into compelling Virgin to do so.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

It depends what part of the network and how much, also questions on the ownership of the cable and duct and who maintians it. etc.

Fibre/Duct sharing, purchases, leasing etc. on Core Backbones has gone on for years, since the telecoms revolution of the early nineties.

The ownership and rights of the duct and cable are distinctly noted and responsibilities in regards to maintenance are clear.

This may not be so easy if you open up the last mile to everyone.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Probably the ducting to the telegraph poles. Or rather I'd hope.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Can see VM doing this soon than later, as will bring in more money for leasing the duct/network, which in turn will help maintain the network better, MORE MONEY = BETTER NETWORK.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

You assume that the money will go into the network which it won't. VM spend as little as possible on the access network one only has to look at the DOCSIS 3 rollout for evidence of that.

It should also be noted that those who would wholesale the network will be taking money out of VM's retail business, VM would probably take something of a hit on this financially overall just as BT did through unbundling of their network.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

For a start Virgin Media,Colt,Cable and Wireless,Verizon and Thus are private companies whose aim is to generate revenue to make a profit and to gain as much custom as they can, they are not charities nor co-operatives they PLC's. Large companies with many shareholders. They are under no obligation to provide services to anyone, they can turn you away,they can let you in, its a free market.

BT however is different, the company was formerly publicly owned and was built to offer basic but essential telecommunication services, in 1984, the conservative goverment stupidly privatised it, in other words, sold OUR telecoms network to private investors and individuals. But to keep people happy and to create a free market and boost competition and to ensure everyone has a right to a phone service, they brought in the Universal conditions. Which means they have to do what the goverment would have done if it was to be still publicly owned.

In Germany and various other countries, they don't have that privilage, Deutsche Telekom is very strict on third parties selling telecoms services down its network. If BT was to trade over there like offer Carrier services over the Deutsche Telekom network, they would make it very difficult.

If you don't like the way the telecoms industry is in the UK, then it shouldn't have been privatised and other companies should not have been granted licences to compete with BT or Cable and Wireless, both were publicly owned and sold off by Maggie.

If BT and Cable and Wireless was still publicly owned and were the only services around, we wouldn't have such a outdated internet service. BT would be able to afford upgrades, BT have lost a lot of revenue and custom due to competitors such as Cable companies and other PLC's. Not forgetting, the shareholders, also want to make a profit, so that also comes first before investments on the network.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

:):):):):):):),sorry to laugh,but have you seen the state of the biggest percentage of VM ducts?? crews are struggling daily to pull VM siamese cables through them with the small No of 'uncabled' addresses they are pulling to these days.:(

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

if this happens it can only be a good thing for us the customer

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

In the long run, it might be better for Virgin Media to keep it as it is for now, if they open up there network for others to use, they will charge less and Virgin Media will loose custom from its own customer base and possibly revenue.

Example:

Virgin Broadband 10MB alone: £18 per month

Then Virgin Media then allow say Easynet or TalkTalk to use the same network for the wholesale price of £5. Obviously Easynet and TalkTalk will sell it for £10, and Virgin will see customers flee to them and although technically, Virgin Media are still generating revenue from the customer by being on the network, Virgin Media will only get the wholesale rate and not the retail price as well.

Its just like BT, when Virgin Media refreshed its Virgin Media National services in 2007,loads of BT customers drifted away from BT to Virgin Media to the point where there was a backlog of customers waiting to be transfered over, there is an article on this somewhere in Cable forum and I think on 'The Register' website.

The same happened when Sky,Orange and TalkTalk launched its so-called free broadband and bundled services.

And the next threat to BT is mobile broadband, its getting better year by year and many people are taking mobile broadband up simply because you don't need a phone line and don't have to be in a Virgin Media Cabled street and also don't need to go through a credit check because there is a pre-pay option available, thats probably why BT have retained its mobile broadband service even though it pulled out of the mobile phone market in 2008.

Apart from that, since BT has a wider coverage area and since its fibre optic service will be national eventually, who cares if Virgin Media and other companies such as Smallworld Media open there networks, there is a national network regulated by Ofcom that allows competition and national services and thats all BT's rivals care about.

Can you really see Virgin Media working with the likes of Easynet(Sky) and Colt, they will purposely charge them a fortune to prevent competition.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

It should be noted that this refers to access to VM ducting, not to forcing VM to offer a wholesale product using the network itself, though the BT model isn't typical in this regard as the entire point of BT being forced to wholesale was to ensure other operators could take lumps out of their market share.

Of course it would be better for VM to keep things as they are as it reduces the investment they need to make to stay competitive and allows them to be relatively inefficient and/or keep a higher profit margin than they would with a fully competitive market however it increasingly looks as though there won't be any choice in the matter for them sooner or later.

VM won't get to charge whomever a fortune for access to their ducting to prevent competition, rates would be regulated to ensure this doesn't happen.

Your comment regarding what BT's rivals want and don't is not correct. These operators most certainly want access to Virgin's ducts, Sky have commented on it in the past. There will be areas covered by telegraph poles by BT but which will have VM ducting present. There will also be BT ducting that is full up while there may be capacity within the VM ducts.

It will also be a pain in the backside to VM and require some additional work on their part to administrate. Another bonus from the competition's point of view.

I am unsure of the relevance of this alleged exodus from BT to VM National, especially given that VM National had been losing broadband customers for 6 of the previous 7 quarters prior to some recovery in the most recent one, or BT to other operators to the issue at hand.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Understand BT being forced to open up their ducting and network (LLU) to competitors as you must remember their network was built with PUBLIC money back when BT were nationalised and had the monopoly.

But NTL/VM spent an absolute fortune (almost putting themselves under) digging up those streets, laying those cables and buying competitors existing cable networks in order to produce a solid Fibre network and gain an advantage. I don't see why they should be under any obligation to open up their network to competitors.

The BT network covers more areas and includes those areas that have cable access so i dont see why VM ducting is necessary to use. I think the government should simply open access to BT ducting and give some sort of incentive to companys to lay further ducting/expand their network to areas where as yet access to broadband is unavailable or limited to particularly low speeds.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

If VM can use BT ducting to provide an on-net cable service, power to the people! We've been bitching and moaning around here that we can't get cable, and BT is now welcoming with open arms other providers to use their free (as in, not used) space.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

This network was, however, purchased with private money. The reason for the required unbundling of loops is due to BT's natural monopoly and ensuring they can't abuse it with vertical integration not to do with where the money comes from to build.

Not really anyone's problem apart from their own that ntl / Telewest massively overspent and rushed their expansions. They are now profitable and have assets which are desirable to others.

BT have, since privatisation, spent tens of billions on broadband networks, core network upgrades, etc and continue to do so while being required to open up these new networks to competitors. By the above argument they should only be required to open up what was there before privatisation. It's not an argument that works and cable has had their own monopoly quite long enough now.

As per my previous post:



---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

If VM even contemplate putting coax into BT's ducting they deserve a slap :)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

FYI - Virgin appear to be hiring people to design a wholesale cable product.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Heres an interesting comment from VM last year.

Have things changed considerably then for OFCOM to take a different direction with this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8035902.stm

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Personally i can't see this including the local access network as alot of the ducting is meant for the local CATV network, the main fibre routes have been designed to bypass this within the same trench so as to keep them sort of separate.

Now in many cities around the country the space within the pavements must be at bursting point with little or no room to expand or build new ducting within the pavements so i could see why this is being pushed by BT as VM have alot of ducting along with other operators that could be used to pull more fibre to expand the BT network with the intention of fibre to cab/home ect. So i would say it's in the interest of BT to force coerce the others into doing this.

VM in my opinion still have alot to get out of the CATV network and have only just been able to start doing this. With analogue being switched off freeing up more bandwidth on the DS, upgrades to improve the US i can't see why VM should or would want to do this. As has already been stated, the sharing of ductwork and fibre cables has been going on for years anyway.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

The whole point of this is to get at access network ducting regardless of what it's meant for sollp. BT have minimal interest in VM's core network ducting.

It's debatable how much life there is left in VM's CATV network. In some areas it's a steaming pile of poop that hasn't been getting upgrades just analogue switch off and already cable operators are looking at migration strategies to FTTP and have for a while.

http://www.aurora.com/site/applications.an?li=a-fd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Frequency_over_Glass

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I was watching BBC news a few days back and Gordon Brown was doing a press conference. He said he plans on investing more than a billion pound into superfast BB by the end of 2012 and he expects that by 2017 he expects everyone in the country to have access to superfast BB. Would that mean the government are investing in BT to roll their fibre network? What exactly are Gordons plans anyone know?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

It's part of the Digital Economy Bill.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I don't really understand still from that. How exactly are they planning on providing superfast BB?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Not sur eif it ispart of that bill or not, but I thought it was the 50p tax on EVERY phone line in the UK, that would be used to pay for this (probably given to BT)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

That's what i was wondering if they were going to pass it onto BT so they can cable the rest of the country. If that is the case then i feel VM sky etc should benefit from this too and that BT should wholesale it. Or VM should be given some of it and they can pay their debt and open up their network to other providers.

They said on the news that they are going to tax everyone but only the rich are going to benefit from it?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

VM are just fine financially. The money won't be passed to anyone companies will be invited to bid for it. The networks built with the money must be open access as BT's networks are now.

The funds will be subsidy for networks for the approximately 30% of the UK population that will not be covered by high speed broadband services through commercial roll out. Cable and BT's new fibre based services will cover about 60%. The remaining 10% are unlucky.

No-one with cable will benefit.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Ok going by your example VM sell the lines to EasyNet/TalkTalk for £5, they sell this to the customer for £10

VM should still be quids in as they wont have to provide Customer/Technical phone support for these customers and if they did I'm sure they would charge a premium rate number to reclaim the costs.

They also wont have to install the equipment in the customers property and if they do I'm sure they will charge.

I'm sure there are various other costs they will save on.

I hope VM do do this and all the other providers. My work is still fed by Cable & Wireless (i thought they were merged with NTL back in the day, obviously not) we have 2xGigabit lines and various other fibre VPN to other sites/companies/services etc... so the infrastructure is already there in most cities.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

ntl purchased Cable and Wireless Consumer Co, the cable network. C+W's business assets stayed with them.

It's somewhat ironic that C+W are a major supplier of VM's offnet product now :)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

BT just want duct space, at the moment this isn't about opening up the Network for all and sundry.

They realise that the cost to upgrade there network would be massive as alot of the network isn't in ductwork apart from the obvious overhead lines alot of BT cables are just layed into the pavement, there might be ducting to a joint then from that to the customer it's just layed just under the tarmac. So to get all this sorted would cost a fortune hence the move at forcing VM into this. All the,"Open the network" fan boys are straight onto this one when it's not about that.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Indeed but that is all cable and equipment upgrades, which although expensive is nothing compared to the construction cost of excavating duct networks. And although much money has been spent on the BT 21cn and alike, the Open Reach side of things is relatively unchanged. The Access Ducts (apart form new build ones of course on new developments) Poles, cabinets, and twisted pairs - in most of the country, are still the ones that were put there pre-privatisation all the time ago.

Opening up VMs access networks would only make sense if there was parity. If VM was to open up their network to BT, BT could pull in FTTH to those premises.

If BT was to offer a similar solution to VM, so that off-net VM could use the BT Access Network to supply FTTH then you could consider it, but you can't because I mention earlier the BT Access Network is, in most of the country, the same as it was in the 60's and 70's and is pants.

The product offered by VM on-net is superior to BT. When VM utilises BTs network off-net it is forced to offer a lesser service.

Therefore, what would be the benefit of VM being forced to open up it's only advantage?

If, as you say, the VM HFC network is on it's arse, that would mean they may need to again invest money on an alternative technology, going forward. Ditching the last leg of Copper and delivering all services through FTTH.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

As noted previously the whole point of BT's statement is that they are allowing access to their ducts.

The costs or otherwise of building BT's network aren't relevant to the discussion. BT's network, ducts, poles and pairs included, was bought and paid for by the private sector. The investment in 21CN and exchange digitalisation was actually more expensive than the entire cost of the company 21CN alone going to some 10 figures.

A figure for full FTTP build assuming a new civils build with the exemption of being able to use BT's ducts which you appear to consider so pants would appear to disagree with your views on this somewhat. That ntl and Telewest massively overpaid for their cable assets when they were greedily eating up the UK cable market doesn't mean that the networks themselves were as expensive to build as their prices may suggest. For the price ntl paid for ex-CWC CoCo for example, 8.2bn which with inflation would be over 9 now, it's believed over half of the population of the UK, more than the total coverage of VM, could have a full FTTP build using only BT ducting as far as existing build goes.

http://www.broadbanduk.org/images/st...ftth_small.jpg

Has a full audit been done of the VM access ducting? Can you say with any confidence what condition it is in compared with the BT ducting? It may be 20 years newer doesn't mean that there's magically more capacity there.

Your argument is certainly one VM may present, it's not one I'd for a moment believe. Ofcom are well aware of the state of the BT ducting Openreach have been doing audits of it for a while in preparation for NGA, are VM aware of which access ducts, not core, access, are near capacity or have other issues that would preclude their use by competitors?

I understood it was also an excuse, and I'll call it that without a trace of hesitation, that VM are using a large proportion of their access network duct space for their own purposes so there wouldn't be much left to sell anyway without extensive work on VM's part.

Can't have it both ways, either it's this immeasurably superior ducting with loads of space compared to BT's network or it's full and wouldn't be economic to sell.

Which is it going to be?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Most VM ducts are already rammed.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Yes, that's very generous of BT. What % of BT Open Reach ducts actually go the home?

As mentioned the vast majority of BTs Access Network is still overhead. Series of poles fed by large count twisted pair copper cables.

Yes, well the company was floated so yes you are correct in a manner of speaking, but the private sector never made the initial investment. The Public made the initial investment and took the resultant hit for any subsequent depreciation. Floating a formally public company on the stock market is not the same as say NTL buying out CWC. It's not an apples v apples comparison.

what figure?

NTL/Telewest paid what the market value for how those assets were valued at the time, the telecoms crash and the quick depreciation of new technology makes the deals look unattractive in hindsight, however if they had not been bought by NTL or Telewest they would have been bought by somebody else. The fact that NTL and Telewest survived is proof that the decision to acquire those companies was the right one.

I don't see the point of the comparison. What are you suggesting? that BT should be given £8.2b? that we would have been better off without cable networks and that we should have stuck to one incumbent supplier and instead of all that wasted money it may have found it way to BT to improve their network?

True, but my point is that at least I know that all properties serviced by VM have an access point direct into the U/G access network. BT doesn't

Superior ducting, but not always with lots of space, but with an access point to the boundary of all serviced properties, which may be needed for future expansion so uneconmical to sell

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Given you appear very familiar with the BT network given your comment...

You tell me?

The private sector took on all liabilities though, of which there were plenty. I am not comparing it to ntl buying out CWC.

See the chart. Failing that its' source document.

Noteworthy is that no figures for using VM's duct network, past node level, are offered and the default figures assume no access to it at all.

On what planet is going through bankruptcy protection and debt for equity swap, almost entirely wiping out previous shareholders in favour of holders of debt accumulated with those purchases any kind of proof that making those acquisitions was the right decision? More a symptom of the mass hysteria at the time.

Nope I'm merely suggesting that ntl grew too large too quickly, Telewest did exactly the same thing, and none of these reflected the actual costs of construction of the networks they purchased.

Yep, and VM's access ducting covers what % of the country? Their core ducting which most wouldn't be that interested in anyway covers what and how much of this coverage is replicated by BT ducting.

Are you really suggesting that VM would have less to gain from access to BT's ducting in areas where they have zero presence than BT would having access to ducting in areas where they already have a presence?

It would strike me as odd calling it 'superior ducting' for third parties to have access to if there's no practical use for this 'superior ducting' to third parties.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

FYI,
the analogue switch off/overbuild areas are now the best to work on from a service/network point of view.all the cabinets had a complete audit and all non-servicing drops were pulled out thereby freeing up acres of space,they also installed 2 x toner taps thereby eliminating the need to split single feed taps into multi feed by putting splitters on.

by all accounts these areas will now be monitored and a comparison made between faults raised on customers that related to issues in the cabs before the audits/upgrade and how they perform afterwards.if its obvious that the fault rate has dropped dramatically (because of the extensive audit) then they are looking to roll it out as a norm.

i think the worst performing cabinets (there is extensive data to confirm which these are) will be hit first,then it will be done on an 'as reported' basis,i.e. techs reporting to the team the cabinets on 'their patch' that give them,as individuals,the greatest headaches.;)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I am aware that there was overbuild in the North East. I'm aware that analogue switch off helps with CPD. It's great that this extra work is happening in overbuilt areas though it should be asked how this helps people on networks that aren't overbuilt and are running on 20 year old actives and pegged at 550/30?

A few of those areas, especially on the ex-Telewest side.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Personally I don't think VM should open what is rightly theirs!

Who cares if BT open their ducting???

I know BT are currently in the process of implementing this new network, which in itself is a joke. They get the power cables and trenches for new cabinets put in but don't have enough cabinets so end up filling in the trench again..... well planned! :rolleyes:

End of my road is becoming Cabinet Hell.....currently old BT cabinet, VM Cabinet and now another 2 BT cabinets being stuck in, and I don't exactly live in a built up area.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

If you object so strongly to having the required infrastructure for next generation services present please do complain to your local council to have said cabinets removed. I'm sure the 50% of the UK that doesn't have any of that available will be happy to take it off your hands. As it is my heart bleeds for you having cable and fibre to cabinet available.

A lot of people care if BT open their ducting, it presents opportunities. If you don't care that's your prerogative, those less well served than you who stand to benefit from other operators using the ducting to deploy services most certainly do care.

Out of interest how do you know that they ran out of cabinets? The most cabinets I've seen placed together by the FTTC project is two, which is enough for 576 lines. Trenches are required from these cabinets to the previous BT cabinet.

BT certainly haven't run out of the FTTC cabinets they've thousands of them.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

But you we're implying that the cost to the private sector of floating BT was comparable to the cost of constructing the UK cable network, which it plainly isn't.

The point was, that if it wasn't NTL and Telewest that ultimately emerged, it would have been somebody else. The market drove the aquisition process, it's what the market wanted. The process would have happened regardless. The fact the market (i.e. shareholders) also lost out is a sad fact of business. NTL and Telewest emerged and therefore they were ultimately correct in leading the consolidation.

Were not talking Core Ducting. We're talking Access Ducting, from the exchange or cab to the actual premises, so let's keep to that shall we.

I don't have the figures, but I think I can say with confidence that over the same footprint, VM will have more access network duct to the premises than BT. Given that VM has access to 50% of the country and given that they are all in major high density populated areas already I don't what a swap agreement has to offer VM.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Well you'll have to ask the Broadband Strakeholders Group that comissioned the report. This report is based only on BT infrastructure. As they plainly state in the Exec Summary:"In the base case, only existing BT infrastructure is assumed to be available for re-use" So VM was not even in the scope of the report.

VM does get a mention however in a few paragraphs.

It is an interesting report which I beleive backs up my opinion. BT want to offer 100mps to compete with VM. Even BT's latest FTTC roll out will only get them around 40mps.

BT need FTTH in order to get their 100mps and the only way they can do this is to get a cable through a duct to the premises.

As I say, the vast majority of their connections to the customers are aerial copper fed by a pole. Even the report states to provide fibre aerially BT would.
Also to further prove the premise.

In short using VM Access Ducts would reduce BT FTTH rollout by £5.7Billion.

There nothing in the report in regards to what VM would get out of such a reciprocal deal, certainly not as much a BT, because as stated in the paragraph further up it states that to supply FTTH aerially new poles would have to be erected.

Is very evident that the benefits around opening up access network duct is heavilly weighted in BT's favour.














It would strike me as odd calling it 'superior ducting' for third parties to have access to if there's no practical use for this 'superior ducting' to third parties.[/QUOTE]

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Won't do inline quoting.

I draw your attention to your quote about how much money BT save with access to VM's network, it specifically mentions access to utility network ducts, not just Virgin Media ducting. There is nothing indicating that access to VM ducting alone would reduce costs by 5.7bn especially given that serving VM's cabled areas with FTTP would cost 8-10bn without it.

The base case featured BT ducting only however as you have noticed Virgin Media and other utility ducting was discussed later so it'd appear you contradicted yourself.

Your comment re: more ducting in the footprint is accurate, however VM don't have the same footprint as BT, BT cover large swathes of the country that VM didn't consider economical to build in.

Anyway sadly back at work so don't have time to do a full analysis but good discussing the matter with you as always Pierre, thanks.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I think you might have taken what I am saying the wrong way. I personally don't know why VM should have to open their ducting just because BT have. The cable network is not for the public/ government to decide. The cable network is VM's plus point against the old BT networks.

I also do not see why the new network for BT is being implemented here:
Its not being funded by the DRD due to this area having a cable infrastructure which more than 70% of people in this area are on. So what possible gain is their for BT to offer their service? Im close to my local exchange (less than a mile) and both DSL and ADSL offer good speeds for customers, once again, what is the new network going to bring to those people around here who simply want to look up youtube or google.

I know for a fact BT ran out of cabinets, a good friend works for my local electric board and he supplies the cabinets, thats why the trenches where dug out, all for a new supply. Then BT had to fill in the holes again because they didnt have enough cabinets.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I agree with most of what you say, but I believe your quote should have said 'The technology offered by VM on-net is superior to BT, and when working correctly has superior performance'

Whilst many customers of both companies would agree that Virgins technology is more advanced than BT, what really matters to the customer is the reliability of the service.

My GF as an example moved from Virgin to BT because the Virgin internet service was so unreliable, despite the problem being at the cabinet (yes I checked myself) all they did was post her a new splitter and some cables. This was followed up by a technician, (loose use of the term) and least said the better.

Hardly the sort of service one would expect.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Can you direct me to the report and paragraph which says BT's telegraph poles can't be used for fibre, please?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Reminds me, in case I wasn't clear access to BT's poles is also included in this.

As you may know Horizon / Verizon BT have already conducted trials attaching fibre to existing copper from poles. I saw a video of them blowing fibre through a tube attached to a line somewhere.

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

You probably want to be telling BT this, they seem to be under the impression the mix is about 50:50 overhead / underground.

http://www.wlga.gov.uk/uploads/publications/6002.pdf

Page 23.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Just to be clear, are you saying that BT are happy to open up their poles to all? Where can I find the quote please? Plus, if you know where to find the vid, would be most grateful, plus the results of their trials too.

Would love to hear a BT engineer explain, with a straight face, why fibre can't be slung from the poles. Perhaps the poles are too high to climb...

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Fibre can be slung from the poles, that was my point. It'll be one of the ways to get glass to homes they trial in MK / Highams Park.

Yes BT are happy to open their poles, they are part of the access network along with the ducts.

http://www.broadbandchoices.co.uk/bt...ls-090210.html

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

:.....thanks for that, most interesting, but do we believe him?

The Government has been running multiple consultations on open access, the one specifically about access to poles is here:

http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file52419.pdf

The consultation closed in November and many companies responded and these responses can be found on the internet. All except BT's response, that is. Nowhere can I find BT's response to this...

I believe BT will fight tooth and nail to prevent access to its poles. They are the key to all this. So, in response to:

BT would love access to VM's network, being as it's the only cable tv network in the country of size. But I do not believe for one second BT are genuine about opening up theirs.

In regards to open access to VM's network, VM are a private company and despite increasing cash flow are still 6 billion in debt and shareholders have yet to see a return on their money. If VM were forced to open up their network, VM would take it to court and I believe would win. Berkett also made mention of technical reasons why open access would be difficult as VM's cables to houses are coaxial surrounded by a twisted copper pair. He said, how do you separate the cables and who gets access to what? In theory, other companies could, as an example, be allowed access to the copper pair, but where do other ISP's equipment go? In already crowded street cabinets? There are no telephone exchanges of course.

From VM's perspective, I do not believe open access to VM's network should happen. From a personal perspective, I would love as many services for as cheap as possible, so I'm all in favour of it!

Back to BT.

They're a private company like VM, why should they keep having to allow competitors access to their network? Of course, the reason is that 90% of that network was built with public money.

Either of two things need to happen:

1 - The Government will force BT to open up its poles to competitors so that they can sling fibre from them. Or, more likely, BT slings the fibre and allows access to competitors.

I think this is the most workable solution for now and is actually happening. BT are installing fibre to some poles which then feeds into their street cabinets. Then copper comes out of the cabinets and into houses all using VDSL2 technology. My area goes live in April.:tu: :)

The problem is, this is a short term measure. This technology will not cope with 100, 200, 1000mb speeds that new services of the future will require. There is also an inherent unfairness on BT in that it has to use its resources to facilitate competitors, ie it still has to send a bloke round to unlock the telephone exchange when Mr Orange turns up to install his equipment. So, that leaves:

2 - Openreach (which is now conveniently separated from BT to some extent) becomes state controlled.

Poles, cabinets and buildings housing telephone exchanges become state assets perhaps administered and maintained by local councils or by a public service company similar to how National Rail is run.

The State pays for the cost of slinging fibre to all poles then allows wholesale access to all. BT is freed from its "burden" of owning and maintaining an open access network and runs services to houses on a level peg with all its competitors.

The downside is the several billion that the State has to pay for the fibre. Not easy in a recession and it's us, via taxes, that will pay for it...

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Don't forget BT is now a private company. ;)

Whilst the state may regulate BT to do the legwork, they should also have a pair and stick it to VM to do the same. Wholesale cable as well as wholesale telephones? Yes please!

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

....and they would stay so. But the part of it built with public money would become state controlled again.

In a age of "new" Labour privatising left (excuse the pun) right and centre. Could the unthinkable happen and a new Conservative government (should they win) nationalise some assets such as Openreach?

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

It has been announced, it is happening.

BT aren't asking for access to the active cable network just the ducting so the rest of this section is moot.

No - the agreement is BT to allow access to its' poles and ducts. BT are already obliged to provide access to any next generation access network on a bitstream basis.

Yes - however 50% of FTTC investment will be reused in FTTH/P. There have been for years products to allow BT's competitors to install their own equipment in cabinets and it has been done. It's called subloop unbundling and has been around as long as local loop unbundling.

Not going to happen, and in any event nothing convenient about it. Most of the pension liabilities are with Openreach and it's a bureaucratic pain in the backside to get things done with but necessary.

You forgot option 3.

3 - BT, Virgn Media and others are obliged to offer non-discriminatory access to their ducts and poles at regulated cost+ rates. BT to continue to be obliged to offer bit stream access to their NGA / Next Generation Access network. Virgin Media to offer a wholesale broadband product.

Which is what appears to be the most likely course of events. This does depend in no small part however on which party ends up in power. If Labour win they may decide to give up any attempt at not being socialist and decide to do it themselves with more money they don't have. Option 3 is what the Tories have mooted.

---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

Conservatives are about smaller government and free markets, not enlarging government through nationalisation and interfering in free markets. To do so would be a bizarre and most un-conservative act.

EDIT: Plus, simply, who pays? We have a lot more pressing things to do with the tax payer's money than fit fibre to Farmer Giles' barn.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

I can't wait to see what happens when BT wholesale out to Sky and VM i think competition is really going to drive bb orices down either than or we will see a clear right winner of the bb war. Plus VM will have access to another 40% of the country is it? Leaving only 10% not cabled. I imagine VM will see a massive influx of customers signing up to their TIVO tv service when they could not get it before. They could probably pay their debts a lot quicker then

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

What?

BT have been wholesaling out to Sky since the launch of Sky Broadband - it is using BT products. Openreach products to reach the LLU areas and Wholesale products to get to those that aren't connected to unbundled exchanges.

VM have had access to the extra 50% of the country via BT's wholesale products, how do you think Chris is using Virgin National?

I have no idea what you are trying to say or what you are talking about with regard to Tivo, etc, you appear to have not noted the various developments with regards to structural separation of BT and wholesale access to the BT customer base.

If you think Virgin are going to suddenly cable an extra 40% of the country you're simply wrong, especially given Pierre seems to think that the BT assets are so low value. VM are trialling expansion of their network via BT's network and fibre to the cabinet using existing BT products.

VM magically paying their debts quicker is also somewhat incorrect, VM would be spending a not inconsiderable amount of money developing the network with no guarantee of good returns on any investment so would be incurring further debt doing such a deployment.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

You have completely and entirely misunderstood my post.

I am aware BT already wholesale to Sky! I am aware Sky are offering their BB through BT's network i'm not that dumb. I was talking about when BT build their fibre network. I'm not interested in Chris and VM national. I am talking about when BT release fibre to the other 40% of the country which is currently not 'fibred up'

What i am trying to say about Tivo is when they and VM team up and Tivo comes back into this country this is going to be a big advancement over what pvrs are currently available on VM and Sky. Coupled with IPTV, internet ondemand delivery and what VM already have in their ondemand portfolio is going to make it groundbreaking in this country. Like i have said before Tivo dominates the US market for Pvr's, Taiwan, Australia etc. It is the PVR to have.

I never mentioned VM were going to cable an extra 40% of the country, again you missconsrewed my post. I was talking about when BT wholesale their fibre network to their competitors. Vm will have a possible 40 extra percentage of the country and they won't have the maitenance costs either. Therefore vm will have a big influx of customers that will drive up revenue for them. I never said vm would 'magically' pay off all their debt. This will take years but the customer reach is going to expand massively and that will certainly help with VM's burdening debt.

I'm sorry if i wasn't clear enough. :erm::)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Why would BT want access to VM's ducts, but not their CATV network, when they have telephone poles which cover the entire country? BT is the only company with 100% coverage to UK homes.

It's not clear what BT are asking for, if at all. Only what articles quoting them as saying. It seems to me that BT just want to cause waves for VM.

What agreement are you referring to? If such an agreement exists why are the government consulting about opening up access to BT's poles? - I provided the link to the consultation document earlier.

Please name an area where this subloop unbundling has happened which allows BT's competitors to offer fibre services to homes??

How can all this stuff been around for years when BT have only just begun a programme to install FTTC to some areas? How do you know 50% of the FTTC investment will be reused for FTTH, as good as it sounds? How can BT's competitors offer FFTH services when they don't have access to the poles? Although you seem to think they do.

Very good point. Seems a good reason why BT would be quite happy to offload Openreach onto the State.

Indeed, but that is the issue. Whether it be the farmer's barn or Mrs McBride in the Outer Hebrides, nobody wants to pay. And I think BT have a strong case to say why should they (under the universal service obligation) pay for faster broadband to these areas when competitors are under no such obligations.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Fibre is available with a built in catenary wire for stringing between poles, the same type of fibre is also used to remote antennas via balloons or Helikites using radio over fibre technology.

I knew my CATV experience would have some use in the future in other industries.;)

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

BT have announced nothing of the sort so no idea what you're talking about.

Repeating BT have announced nothing of the sort so no idea what you're talking about. BT making their access plant available doesn't make FTTP from OLOs miraculously appear.

Acronym soup intended.

I have no idea why you think BT would magically deploy fibre to 40% of the least desirable 50% of the UK - not going to happen. You clearly have no idea how this is all working else you'd understand BT's fibre deployment will raise the deep fibre availability, without government subsidy, from 50% to 60-65%-ish of the UK population, that being the financially viable amount without government cash.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

BT will be doing fibre to the cab will they not? Therefore improving speeds. Gordon Brown wants the Uk to have superfast BB by 2017. I imagine BT will be used seeing as they already have 100% country coverage. Then when that happens Sky vm and so forth will be using the network like they can now.

Plus people are talking about a possible ftth via their poles. This is what i meant by BT using their network to fibre another 40% of homes. I do understand thank you very much, how very patronising of you. :rolleyes: if you look more carefully i was talking about an extra 40% that will be available through BT as VM already have 50%. Therefore there will be access to 40% more of the country where they did not have the choice of fibre before.

Re: BT Open Up Ducting - Look To Use Virgin's
 

Great point. If BT can deploy FTTH over their aerial network, as alluded to in earlier posts then why use VMs Ducts?