Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Thought the economic crisis was over? Well, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...-Portugal.html

Maybe we're lucky we're not in the Euro zone right now.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I think most of the so called develpoed economies were far too dependent on debt for the boom we had and we all knew it had to come back and bite us at sometime we just didn't think it would be so soon. That and the fact that no government seemed to have anything in place to deal with the mess when it hit has shown us all up a bit i think.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Actually no, thanks to article 122 in the Lisbon Treaty which Broon forgot to ask us if we wanted we can be required to contribute to any EU bailout fund for them. Will cost the UK upwards of 7bn pounds for Greece alone if it comes to it.

Just to also add, there would be no large scale democratic decision within the European Parliament as to whether or not to bail Greece out, MEPs would be informed of the decision by the President of the Council of 47, they would make the decision, one country, one vote, then countries with larger GDPs get the bill. There's democracy for you.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Can that bailout fund be granted without unanimous support from all member states?

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Not sure how that would apply.

I'm sure that the countries that wouldn't have to pay and will probably want the same freebies coming their way, will vote for it.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

ooh!!

Sudden realisation that lumping economies such as Greece in with the likes of France and Germany was a bad idea shock!!!!!!!

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Majority vote quite acceptable.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Oh yes well we all know we'll wind up paying one way or another but my point was about not being in the Euro Zone and being hamstrung by it.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Fair point, due to being in the Euro Zone those countries can't use the normal economic mechanisms such as devaluation to deal with issues.

Why the hell Greece was even let in is a mystery, their economy couldn't even pretend to be in a fit state, though if we hold Greece up for that we'd also have to call out Italy and others. Triumph of European expansionism over prudence.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

IIRC Germany didn't even fit the criteria for entry into the Euro, and so the rules were bent.

Will we ever get a straight answer from Gordon Brown??
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...ut-Greece.html

Unsurprisingly when he was asked about this Brown gave an answer to an entirely diffeRent question:

As categoric as ever then... :rolleyes:

I have a strange feeling that UK PLC will be forking out rather a lot of money very shortly.....

Now perhaps all those idiots who saw the value of joing the Euro being all about not having to change holiday currency quite so often and labelled all Eurosceptics as little Englander xenophobes will see that EMU was ill-conceived from the start!

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

The UK will not be allowed to be involved in the negotiations/decisions but will be 'allowed' to pay for it.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Sad but very probably true. Now where are all those pro Euro folks hiding? They all gone quiet.....

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I hear that they will impose a "Robin Hood" tax on kebabs, 5p per kebab, to cover Greece's debts. Mandy, bless him, came with a catchy name for it "greasy tax is good for your health"!

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Perhaps, before the tax payers of other nations start footing the bill, the Greek 'government' could start cracking on on the massive tax evasion which seems to be endemic there:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...reou-austerity

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Have you seen a builder/plumber/sparky pay tax/Vat on anything in the UK? Cash in hand no?

And British Airspace has not given brown bags of cash (ok suitcases) to Saudis that could easily cover Portugal's debt?

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Well I'd be delighted if Gordon Brown would crack down on tax evaders here too. But what has that got to do with the Greeks and the action their government should be taking to reduce their massive debt?..

Re: Will we ever get a straight answer from Gordon Brown??
 

It's OK. The badger himself has ruled out the UK having to contribute.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus..._The_Continent

And seeing this government has never talked tough then changed their minds* we can all sleep soundly knowing our tax dollars go to bankers in the UK and not in Europe.

* Obviously not counting the Afghan hijackers, getting marched to cashpoints to pay fines etc. etc.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Actually, nobody has made plans to handover any money at this time, they are just talking about it. It can therefore be argued that he is telling the 'truth' at this moment in time.:rolleyes:

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

But 'exceptional occurrences beyond its control' doesn't apply.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Well the Greeks aren't too impressed with the EU's rescue plan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8513430.stm

The EU's in between a rock and a hard place here isn't it? A fundamental design flaw's been exposed I think....

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Can you back that up? No, you can't.

We've got our own central bank and our own currency, both of of which are ours and which we control. They're ours, in other words. In the light of how poorly the ECB has responded to the economic crisis this now seems rather a good idea. On the other hand, the Greek problems are dragging the Euro down, which makes the pound less competitive. This is a bad thing, so perversely it's in our interests for Greece to get a good thumping bailout in order to steady the Euro at a higher rate v. the pound.

BTW the Eurozone is being dragged along by France. Everywhere else is basically in trouble still - the Germans only managed flat GDP last quarter and no one's got a plan to get them spending any money (Germans are historically large savers and are sitting on a lot of cash - the memory of hyperinflation is still strong, of course, so they're reluctant to fuel inflation by encouraging people to spend it, in much the same way as they're reluctant to bail Greece out. Unfortunately the best thing for the Euro would be to spend some of the big saver's money keeping the little guys afloat, otherwise you end up tearing the zone apart due to inflationary pressures in France threatening the necessary deflations in Greece etc.).

Basically Spain, Portugal and Greece are all suffering from the effects of paying people too much during the boom. Since they can't devalue their currency (since unlike the UK they don't run it) they have to deflate the economy by cutting spending, cutting incomes and increasing tax take. This is not fun and doesn't help them get out of recession *at all* - the only way to do that in a hurry is to invest public money in the economy.

In other words, all you Eurosceptics can have a jolly good laugh. Then thank Gordon Brown for opposing UK entry into the Euro.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

It's a real pity that this one towering achievement will for all time be overshadowed by ... well ... just about everything else.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Thank Gordon Brown?? Do me a favour! Brown was in favour of joining the Euro 'in principle':

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1432...principle.html

He was only concerned about economic conditions NOT the fundamental inflexibilities of EMU which are now being exposed for all but the politically blinkered to see.....

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I don't think many people seriously believe that to be true. He was simply toeing the cabinet line with one foot, whilst kicking the whole thing into touch with the other: that same article makes a big thing about the five economic tests. Those tests were drawn up to be as vague as required; Brown could have claimed the British economy 'passed' them had he wanted to.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I agree entirely. My point was that Brown apparently didn't view the practicalities of the EMU 'straightjacket' as an issue to be worried about.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

How comes we can hand out money left right and centre to others but when we need some help or a bit of support from other countries or the E,U, We get sweet FA?.
I`snt it true that we pay a hefty contribution to the E.U coffers?
What do we get back for it? Can anybody explain that to me please?:erm:

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Some say it's the price we pay for all that 'cultural enrichment'.... :D

---------- Post added at 22:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:37 ----------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8516730.stm

Hmmm... the Greeks are still in the dark about their EU 'rescue'. This doesn't inspire much confidence in EU solidarity does it...

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

If my memory serves me correctly, the UK pays one of the highest yearly contributions to the EU. yet has always received far less in return, than any other country in the EU is the way of subsidies.... This was the reason that Maggy Thatcher was able to secure the yearly EU rebate and the veto/opt-out for the UK....

Such a shame that Tony Bliar gave away the rebate, and most of the opt-out powers for bugger all return. Yes, Tony Bliar was a consumate richard head.... I mean politician, with the UK's best interests at the forefront of his Poodle like little brain..... :rolleyes:

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

It's alright though, in giving it away for sod all in return, he ensured he would get the job of EU president after the UK got its say in a referendum on whether or not it was a good idea... :erm:

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Such a shame they repealed the dualing laws, cause if there was ever a guy that needed 3 feet of steel or a lead ball incerted at high speed its Tony Bliar....

then again, I'd be happy to try and hang Nu Liebour for treason.... but thats just me I guess. ;)

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

This wikipedia article, assuming it hasn't been doctored, shows the estimated breakdown of the budget to 2013 - almost the highest net contributor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_...European_Union

Re: Will we ever get a straight answer from Gordon Brown??
 

Well who'd have thunk it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-out-euro.html

Probably just as well this happened now and not before Thursday. Here are some of the highlights.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I would be surprised but I'm really not. Cheers again for Lisbon Gordon.

Makes it a tad more difficult to push the pro-Europe agenda with the Eurozone forcing Britain to guarantee their debts, especially given the poor financial management of some countries there. No doubt they'll still find a way to make out it's in our benefit to continue being the 2nd highest net contributor, 6th per capita, ignoring that we have a pretty big net outflow of private money as well due to high levels of EU-27 immigration to the UK also.

Out of the EU and free trade / movement of people agreement referendum now please :(

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I don't mind bailing out anothe country to prevent it slipping into anarchy and oblivion but I draw the line at bailing out a bloody currency - especially one that was voluntary.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

let the bone idle lot of them work their way out of this mess:mad:

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Do you know I dare say that right now Brown would promise a referendum on just about anything to cling onto power (excluding his position of course....).

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Oops. Looks like there will be more money from the UK heading down the euro drain.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12993318

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Surprise, surprise.... :rolleyes:

International financiers are no longer prepared to lend money to Portugal on terms they can afford and this is the result. Spain is under great pressure also and could be on the verge of similarly drastic action yet there are still people here in denial about the mess we're in and what has to be done to prevent us being next in the line of dominoes. Get real FGS!

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Don't worry Osem, the green shoots are growing well round here. Large white sheds are popping up like mushrooms, housebuilding is on the increase again, one of the major supermarkets has applied to build a big distribution depot near the motorway link and the trams will appear on the streets of Oldham later this year. Other established businesses are expanding their operations and the number of helicopters circling looking for land makes it appear that growth is going to continue for a good few years at least.
You just have to keep the faith … ;)

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

I've just been reading Nigel Lawson's comments from about 13 years ago concerning the single currency.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehou...the-euro.thtml

Frighteningly accurate in the main.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Of course the recent raising of Eurozone interest rates does little to help the likes of Portugal:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...d-economy.html

... and the bail-out is going to come with some very harsh strings attached.

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

.......and in other news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13112488

and:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13130075

Yet, still there are people in denial about just how serious this whole thing is and that it could happen here unless we get to grips with our spending...

Re: Debt crisis hits Greece, Spain & Portugal
 

Even the mighty US isn't immune from the dangers so don't imagine for a second that the UK is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...tops-here.html