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Taf	10-01-2010 18:16

"Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Pope Benedict XVI has called on Italians to respect the rights of illegal migrants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8450657.stm

I've been branded a NAZI in another forum to dare to suggest that illegal immigrants should have no "rights" and thus should not be rounded up and protected, but rounded up, detained on a bread and water diet, then a swift expulsion from the country... along with any lawyers that get in the way.

Your thoughts?

Mr Angry

10-01-2010 18:20

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942562)

Your thoughts?

I think you should return to the other forum to demand an apology and correct the assertions of those who labelled you a nazi.

Quite obviously the nazi view, as per the pope himself, is that their rights should be respected.

Russ	10-01-2010 18:32

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

All he's saying really is for the violence against the immigrants to stop - and that's no bad thing.

martyh

10-01-2010 18:32

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

your statement and whats happening in italy just doesn't sit right with me .
firstly your statement seems to suggest that they should be treated as almost sub-human because they have entered a country illegally searching for a better life .
secondly ,in Italy the immigrants are brought in by organised crime and treated like slaves which is in no way correct .while i am not a liberal regarding illegal immigrants i still think they should treated as humans with all the rights that go with it

you should think yourself lucky you're British and don't have the problems that some some of the african nations have

punky

10-01-2010 18:50

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Their human rights (protection from torture, right to a fair trial trial, etc) should be respected but not their civil rights (access to benefits, right to vote, etc).

I should imagine the Pope is talking about the former.

Arthurgray50@blu

10-01-2010 18:52

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

As far as l am concerned Illegals 'don't' deserve any rights, if they came into the country or any other country on the legal side, then fine.

What we have is the basic rights of people, I know that there are some people will prey on people who want a better life for themself and are prepared to pay thousands of pounds to get into 'a' country, then they can put that towards coming into that country on the side of the law, l watch so many docs, where border controls find illegals, in lorries (where the drivers get fined Â£5.000) stuck in plastic bags to avoid being detected etc.

These illegals might be human beings and should be treated as such, but 'rights' no.

martyh

10-01-2010 18:56

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 34942601)

As far as l am concerned Illegals 'don't' deserve any rights, if they came into the country or any other country on the legal side, then fine.

What we have is the basic rights of people, I know that there are some people will prey on people who want a better life for themself and are prepared to pay thousands of pounds to get into 'a' country, then they can put that towards coming into that country on the side of the law, l watch so many docs, where border controls find illegals, in lorries (where the drivers get fined Â£5.000) stuck in plastic bags to avoid being detected etc.

These illegals might be human beings and should be treated as such, but 'rights' no.

so what do you mean arthur ,on one hand you say they should be treated as human then you say no rights :confused:

webcrawler2050

10-01-2010 19:27

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942562)

I'll agree with this. As immigrants, they have no rights what so ever. The simple clear cut rule, should be, hunt them down, kick em out. End of.

Arthurgray50@blu

10-01-2010 19:28

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Hi Martyr, I believe ANY immagrant is treated with humanity, but to me, if they have entrered the country illegally, then they don't have 'rights' they do not deserve the benefits that country can give, ie in this country any illegal immagrant, is looked after and given benefits to live on and housing and are allowed into the country and are treated better than the people that live here legally.

If the illegals have found a way into the country by what ever means possible, they have to earn that right, by applying in the normal manner to gain legal passage in the country, not by the back door.

Russ	10-01-2010 19:30

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by webcrawler2050 (Post 34942627)

I'll agree with this. As immigrants, they have no rights what so ever.

What about the right to 'not get beaten up simply because they're immigrants"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by webcrawler2050 (Post 34942627)

The simple clear cut rule, should be, hunt them down, kick em out. End of.

In which case the comparison to Nazi Germany should not surprise you or anyone else with that sort of view.

webcrawler2050

10-01-2010 19:32

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34942632)

What about the right to 'not get beaten up simply because they're immigrants"?

In which case the comparison to Nazi Germany should not surprise you or anyone else with that sort of view.

No, Russ, you misunderstand. I am talking about their rights, for example to get a "free house" & them sort of rights.

Russ	10-01-2010 19:34

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by webcrawler2050 (Post 34942634)

No, Russ, you misunderstand. I am talking about their rights, for example to get a "free house" & them sort of rights.

OK I apologise if I read you wrong but saying "they should have no rights whatsoever" makes it look like you're saying they should have no rights whatsoever.

Hugh	10-01-2010 19:34

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by webcrawler2050 (Post 34942634)

No, Russ, you misunderstand. I am talking about their rights, for example to get a "free house" & them sort of rights.

Strangely enough, if your read the OP article, you would see that was not the "rights" the Pope was talking about.

Quote:

The BBC's David Willey in Rome says many of the migrants from north and west Africa have been earning starvation wages as fruit and vegetable pickers - backbreaking work which Italians do not want.

The labour market is controlled by the local mafia, called the 'Ndrangheta, which is believed to employ ever growing numbers of illegal seasonal day labourers.

The workers live in sordid conditions and are paid very low wages, out of which they have to pay kickbacks to their bosses.

icestar2

10-01-2010 19:34

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by punky (Post 34942600)

While I usually keep out of these thread's because they normally end up going nowere with the same people arguing the same thing day in day out I do think Punky summed it up pretty well and seems to be the best level headed view I've heard on here.

Edit** were's Arthurs post of just "Hi" gone ? I admit it made me laugh :)

idi banashapan

10-01-2010 19:35

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

if they are in a country illegally, they should be treated like any other criminal according to that country's laws, which generally speaking, is to serve some kind of freedom-removing sentance. in the case of illegal immigrants, my view is that they should be detained without the freedom of the land they are in and deported at the earliest possible time to where they came from.

same goes for those who 'seek asylum' in this country. I doubt very much indeed that the UK was the first safe country they came to whilst running through Europe and crossing the seas to get here!

webcrawler2050

10-01-2010 19:35

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34942636)

OK I apologise if I read you wrong but saying "they should have no rights whatsoever" makes it look like you're saying they should have no rights whatsoever.

Okay, fair point..

BBKing

10-01-2010 20:06

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

I've been branded a NAZI in another forum to dare to suggest that illegal immigrants should have no "rights" and thus should not be rounded up and protected, but rounded up, detained on a bread and water diet, then a swift expulsion from the country... along with any lawyers that get in the way.

Your thoughts?

a) what you describe is roughly what happens in the UK, in that illegal immigrants, when found, are usually rounded up, bunged in somewhere like Harmondsworth Detention Centre, then deported. I can't answer for the diet in there, but I doubt it's especially pleasant.
b) except for the lawyers bit, we don't do that yet
c) rounding up lawyers for representing people the state doesn't like is certainly totalitarian, in the sense that it clearly prioritises state power over due legal process
d) the Nazis were certainly totalitarian
e) the accusations of 'Nazi' are therefore not 100% wrong, at least on the lawyers. Sorry about that.

I don't know how to break it to people, but the UK is now notoriously harsh on illegal immigrants. Since this is what you tabloid reading mouth breathers *wanted*, surely you can give the Home Office your support and thanks?

martyh

10-01-2010 20:15

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

it's the "rounded up and put on a bread and water diet with no rights" i find a tad troublesome it's not the dark ages

Maggy

10-01-2010 21:37

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

I'm getting to the point in this thread where I just have to laugh because it's so preposterous...:D

frogstamper

11-01-2010 00:26

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Maybe we could issue rifles to people living in coastal areas of Britain, then have some sort of lottery to see where you'll be posted on the sea-front.
Then say every fifty people or so maybe a "responsible" person could be issued with a stand-off shore to ship missile, just for those larger targets.
Of course there are those that say we should mine the beaches as well, just to deal with anyone who makes its through the first barrage, personally I think thats a little like overkill, I mean what an earth do they think we have the rifles for??:rolleyes:

I expect to see this article in the Littlejohn diatribe any day soon.;)

Reedy

11-01-2010 00:54

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Russ B defending the illegal immigrants .... there's a surprise.:rolleyes:

Nidge

11-01-2010 03:05

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34942670)

it's the "rounded up and put on a bread and water diet with no rights" i find a tad troublesome it's not the dark ages

That's what we'd get if we entered their country illegally. Why not pay the compliment back??

---------- Post added at 04:05 ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942562)

I must be a NAZI than because I agree with you.

RizzyKing

11-01-2010 12:54

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

The right to live without violence or persecution is basic and should apply to all people's everywhere there is no question about that. Right to enter any country illegally and enjoy all the benefits of it of course should not be allowed and anyone illegal should be deported back to country of origin unless there is a very good reason not too see first part.

While i think we are a little too soft in the UK i would never advocate physical harm to any illegal we come across and they should be treated well for as long as it takes to deport them.

martyh

11-01-2010 12:59

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

[QUOTE=Nidge;34942772]That's what we'd get if we entered their country illegally. Why not pay the compliment back??

when was the last time a Briton tried to enter a developing african country illegaly to live and work :rolleyes: try seeing things from someone elses point of view for a change .It's easy to demand that illegal imigrants should be banged up and fed on bread and water when you live in a nice 3 bed semi ,have electric ,water,gas and all the luxuries .Try looking at things from the perspective of someone who's just had his wife raped and murdered his kids have been murdered no house ,no money ,of course they will try to get into a country like ours ..you would

---------- Post added at 04:05 ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 ----------

Taf	11-01-2010 13:14

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers. Big difference.

zing_deleted

11-01-2010 13:16

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942562)

I agree 100% with you view

I also think asylum seekers should be offered a tent to live in afterall if they were in danger in their own country they will be happy. If they kick up a stink then they aint really asymum seekers and should then be rounded up etc

Taf	11-01-2010 13:27

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Someone knocks on your door, tells you a sob story about being made homeless/ being attacked/ whatever. You let them in and look after them whilst you check out their story. If it's all true you let them share your house providing they help with the bills and housework. If it's false you kick them out for lying.

You and your family wake one day to find your small house full of people you don't know. They hide or threaten you with violence every time you try to remove them. They've raided your pantry, your fridge, your medicine cupboard. Some are selling drugs and stuff they have stolen from your house to your kids. One of your rooms is being used to make counterfeit goods they keep trying to sell you. You can't get into the bathroom because one of them always seems to be in there. A couple are obviously sick, but won't get medical help, so risk infecting you and your visiting friends and family. They won't help look after the house, and keep all their cash denying you any. Many are drifting in unseen from your neighbours' house, some from accross town. You suspect one of your neighbours or someone else in the town is bringing them into your house for a fee.

Do you let them stay or do you kick them out?

martyh

11-01-2010 13:34

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942936)

Illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers. Big difference.

the only difference is asylum seekers are legal
I agree that we let too many in this country and yes illegals should be deported quickly ,but living in tents? bread and water? anyone with that attitude should be made to go and live like that for a week .It does nothing to solve these problems when people are prepared to treat other unfortunate people like animals

Russ	11-01-2010 13:36

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reedy (Post 34942771)

Russ B defending the illegal immigrants .... there's a surprise.:rolleyes:

Tell me, what am I defending them from?

martyh

11-01-2010 13:37

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942944)

are you really expecting anyone to take you serious

Taf	11-01-2010 13:42

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

It's just another way to describe what's actually happening to our country...

nomadking

11-01-2010 13:48

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34942948)

the only difference is asylum seekers are legal
I agree that we let too many in this country and yes illegals should be deported quickly ,but living in tents? bread and water? anyone with that attitude should be made to go and live like that for a week .It does nothing to solve these problems when people are prepared to treat other unfortunate people like animals

I think you will find that asylum seekers are just illegal immigrants that have been found out. This is an island, and as such, the place prior to their entry into this country was probably safe.

Just because one area of a country is dangerous, doesn't mean that the whole of that country is unsafe. After all, there are areas in this country that are dangerous. Does that mean we can claim asylum in another country?

martyh

11-01-2010 13:58

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942958)

It's just another way to describe what's actually happening to our country...

what utter rubbish ,i would agree that we have let the immigration issue get out of control and this country cannot support any more but inevitably there will be illegal immigrants from a variety of countries but to deny them basic human rights makes you and anyone else who thinks the same ...yes i'll say it ..a Nazi for wont of a better word

---------- Post added at 14:58 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 34942959)

i think you need to buy a dictionary

Asylum seekers are people who try to gain entry by claiming asylum ,a perfectly legal process to help people whose life is in danger in their own country
Illegal immigrant is someone who tries to cross a border without going through border controll
yes some illegal immigrants will try to claim asylum and if they are allowed to then they are no longer illegal

nomadking

11-01-2010 14:08

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

So which country that borders the UK is dangerous? Are people getting on planes to this country whilst they are under gunfire?

martyh

11-01-2010 14:13

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 34942970)

So which country that borders the UK is dangerous? Are people getting on planes to this country whilst they are under gunfire?

yes i know the system has been abused and our governments have allowed it to be abused but we still get plenty of true asylum seekers as do other european countries

it should also be pointed out that asylum seekers are not obliged to go to the nearest safe country they will always go to a country that they already have links with

RizzyKing

11-01-2010 14:23

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

All we have to do is enforce the geneva protocols on such issue's that clearly state everyone has a right to flee violence and persecution within whatever country BUT must take refuge\asylum in the first UN designated safe nation they come too. Therefore unless they arive in the UK on a boat from outside the european union or on a plane they should not be here.

It isn't a question of human rights it is a question of what is right and while i would happily agree to the UK contributing to a fund to help those fleeing violence\persecution and maybe even taking a quota of such people we should not be the final destination for the majority nor should we ever be the biggest contributor to any such fund.

End of the day hammering some poor sod that got out of whereever when he\she come's to the UK is petty and pointless because he\she is only doing what any of us would do if we found ourselves in some of the situations many of these people are in. We can be humane and compassinate without being mugs and that is the balance that any future government must get right, because we are only an island with limited space\resources and simply cannot continue as we are.

martyh

11-01-2010 14:36

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34942980)

yep totally agree Rizzy:tu::tu:

SMG	11-01-2010 14:57

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34942980)

Excellent post.

Russ	11-01-2010 14:59

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

This is all very well but the OP was posting about respecting the rights of Italian immigrants.

Gary L

11-01-2010 16:00

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34943008)

This is all very well but the OP was posting about respecting the rights of Italian immigrants.

God, I hate Italians.

NoKnowledge

11-01-2010 16:04

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34943048)

God, I hate Italians.

Why?

Gary L

11-01-2010 16:08

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

All that mama mia stuff and the kissing the fingers thing.

Hugh	11-01-2010 16:16

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34943052)

All that mama mia stuff and the kissing the fingers thing.

You may be confusing them with Abba.....

Taf	11-01-2010 16:36

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34942980)

Well said

martyh

11-01-2010 17:20

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34943073)

Well said

so you don't want to lock them up on bread and water anymore?

Taf	11-01-2010 17:42

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34943095)

so you don't want to lock them up on bread and water anymore?

Asylum seekers no.... unless they fail in their applications, or until they decide to claim asylum after working in the UK drugs, prostitution, gang, restaurant, corner shop, counterfeit trades, right up to the moment they get caught here illegally....

The thread was started about ILLEGAL immigrants.

Russ	11-01-2010 17:45

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

....in Italy.

Nidge

11-01-2010 17:45

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34942980)

How many UN designated Nations have some of them come through to get to the UK?????????? I can count 4 in some cases there's 5. Why come through 5 countries to get to one?? Why don't they doss down in Greece, Italy, Germany, Spain, France on their way to the UK??

martyh

11-01-2010 18:03

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34943111)

....being used by the mafia as slaves to do the jobs the italians won't do

---------- Post added at 19:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:57 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nidge (Post 34943115)

yes we know this i have already said the system has been abused for years ,thats not the point of the thread the point is, why do some people feel that locking up illegals and feeding them bread and water ,denying them basic human rights is a solution ?

Nidge

11-01-2010 18:22

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34943125)

....being used by the mafia as slaves to do the jobs the italians won't do

---------- Post added at 19:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:57 ----------

yes we know this i have already said the system has been abused for years ,thats not the point of the thread the point is, why do some people feel that locking up illegals and feeding them bread and water ,denying them basic human rights is a solution ?

If we entered lets say Pakistan illegally without a passport or papers we'd be locked in a cell with 20 other Pakistani men with no toilet and running water, fed rice and stale water for at least a year until it was sorted out, why should we treat them any other way?? If we treat them hard they might not be in a rush to come back once released.

danielf

11-01-2010 18:36

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34943125)

Same way a lot of people want to be able to beat intruders in their house to within an inch of their life. Some people are just Nazis apparently ruled by feelings of revenge and resentment.

martyh

11-01-2010 18:38

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nidge (Post 34943142)

because it's not the illegals that would do that to us it's the government or military rulers of whatever oppresive regime they are trying to escape ,can't you see that

Flyboy

11-01-2010 19:44

Re: "Rights" of illegal immigrants?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 34942562)

Which forum was this, Taf?

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