The knives are out for Brown...
 

According to the BBC, Geoff Hoon and Patricia Hewitt are behind a letter circulating amongst New Labour MP's calling for a secret ballot on the party leadership.

It'll be interesting to see who comes out of the woodwork to undermine Brown, who rushes to his defence and who waits for the dust to settle before stating their position.

No Beeb link yet but found this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6977685.ece

...and as if by magic.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8443769.stm

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Economy in the toilet, a deeply unpopular war going on, huge unemployment and they are squabbling over who is at the helm when the NuLabour ship finally sinks.

Hurry up and call the election so we can get rid of this mob.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Motion seconded!! ;)

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I've mixed feelings about this. Squabbling in an election year can't be healthy unless you're David Cameron.

What I don't want is an excessive swing to the tories. They're no better than each other... but both are worse when they have large majorities.

A few Ghurka votes for Clegg might help. ;)

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I bet Brown's busily ringing around his colleagues wondering who'll answer.... :D

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Ringing? I thought he just typed a message then chucked the phone at their heads... :erm:

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

He'll have lackies who'll have already done that.... or tried to do it. I wonder how many fence sitting mobiles are switched off for the next couple of hours. :D

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

You're not suggesting Brown lacks self control are you? :D

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

The the crap called the torys are going to do better??

There'll just cock it up and blame labour.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Not at all. I'm sure the reason they need replacement office equipment in his office are simply because his staff work so hard at running the country...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...brown-printers

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ----------

A monkey in a nappy couldn't do worse.

Its a cycle, the tories had their time in the 80's and early 90's and overstayed their welcome. Now labour need handed their coats and shown to the door.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I think things are as screwed as they can get pretty much and as for the labour party lets be honest what smart politician right now would want to take control of the party heading for defeat. I don't doubt for one minute his own party are sick of him but anyone that would step up and take control now shows they are not the sharpest knife in the block better to wait let GB go down hard and fast and then take over.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Yes, how unfair that'd be - blaming the previous government who served for over a decade and presided over the biggest recession in God knows how long... :rolleyes:

It may have escaped your critical eye but Bliar and Brown spent the best part of 10 years blaming Thatcher for everything. Only when they got us well and truly into the financial mire did they change tack and start blaming the US for all our woes. If it wasn't for the fact that the money they've squandered dwarfs that lost during the Tory's ERM debacle they'd still be banging on about that! Given all the blame he's levelled at other people over the years you'd have thought Brown wasn't responsible for anything at all....

---------- Post added at 13:28 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------

Anyone bold enough to challenge Brown now would, if selected, have a pretty good excuse for losing the next election so it needn't be a career ending moment.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I think Labour have realised that they won't win with Brown and it would just be a case of would the swing to the Tories be enough to put them in power.

It is a bit of a concern that if they do replace Brown they'll have a renewed vigour and a fresh start and be more competition for the Tories. Voters do have short memories.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Thankfully for us, the problem they have is that charismatic, credible, untarnished leaders-in-waiting are a tad thin on the ground on the Government benches. Cameron must be thinking Xmas 2011 has come very early.....

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

Hmmmm - I know it's early days yet but this has been discussed on BBC radio ever since the story first broke and where are all the senior figures rushing to Brown's defence??.....

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Saying "Just put the Nokia down"

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...010/01/109.jpg

In all seriousness though could this cause an early election? If he does go the new PM would have to call an immediate election.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Just like those f wits Labour have been doing for years. Get them out and now before we are completely ruined. Labour are as much use as a light house in the desert

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

An interesting take on recent events from Guido Fawkes:

http://order-order.com/

---------- Post added at 14:42 ---------- Previous post was at 14:39 ----------

Does anyone seriously believe Mandelson isn't fully aware of all of this by now? I suppose he could be incommunicado stuck in a snowdrift on a Russian billionaire's country estate......

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Almost three hours since the letter was announced and still no Cabinet ministers on to back Brown, just a couple of back benchers...

Is it too much to hope this might gain some momentum and trigger an election?

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Yes indeed. It's looking more serious for Brown with every minute of silence that passes!

This may explain Mandelson's temporary absence from the limelight:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...brown-tensions

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

No one else 'real' is on the other side either though. Just at an impasse until someone breaks their silence.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

This could be a cunning labour plan:

Manipulate the conditions so that a snap General election can be called while the country is snow bound.

Those of us who make it to a polling station will have frozen brains and may put our X in the wrong place.

Good try Gordon but we've seen through you - again.;)

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Actually that's what we do need. The next Government is going to have to make some pretty unpleasant decisions and they will need that majority to push through some of the plans. Normally I'd be all for a hung parliament (Pleasee... pretty please with a cherry on top :D) but if we're going to get out of the hole that Brown has put us in, we are going to have to give one party the mandate to sort out the mess. A hung parliament is likely to lose direction or at least some of the more 'extreme' measures will have to be watered down and therefore will be less effective.

Don't bet on it, we could fail to emerge from recession this quarter as well, the countries credit rating could drop (increasing the cost of Government borrowing... it could be a lot worse.)

Actually the rumor's around the last challenge to him were that they were planning to replace him and call a snap election to bow out gracefully. Whether that is what would have happen mind you...


Latest from the BBC is that "Cabinet ministers have been lining up behind Gordon Brown" surely this will make the knife thrusts easier...

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

How pathetic they really are...with or without GB they are going to lose and they are just rats fleeing the wreck.

How worthless they really are...

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

They are crap. This is the 3rd attempt to get rid of him that has fallen flat on it's face after a few hours. Can't even backstab someone without messing it up.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Well if and it is a big if they do get rid of brown then i cannot see how they cannot call an immediate election because having one unelected leader is bad enough but having another for the sake of a few months hoping to turn something round is completely unacceptable.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I would rather vote BNP than tory.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Why?

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Well it's nice to come across such well reasoned argument...

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

i'd rather be a hammer than a nail ;)

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

So you really think the bnp are better then the tory's jeez says it all really doesn't it lol.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

My point was not to offend, but state the tory have in the past screwed this country.

When I was first out of work, under the tory rules I wasn't unemployed so unable to get any benefit.

I would never vote for BNP .

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Under the labour rules I was told I am not unemployed (Nor have I been for the last 6 months apparently) so unable to get any benefit. (and even then it would only be stamp because my wife works 40 hours a week and I paid the 'wrong' type of NI (as opposed to the huge amount I paid in corporation tax))

They should just get rid of him and be done with it, the quick we have an election, the quicker someone can start digging us out of the mess that Brown and Co. got us into.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Well I'm glad you cleared that one up... ;)

Of course there aren't almost 3m (officially, more unofficially) unemployed people out there right now who're suffering greatly.......

What gets me is that having come to power on a pledge to be better than the Tories they replaced, they've proven themselves just as bad and just as sleazy as the worst Tory fat cat. Evidently no matter how horrendous a state New Labour get this country into, it'll all be the fault of the Tories and you'll carry on voting for more of the same. If/when another party gets in power, I assume everything they inherit and all the tough decisions which have to be made will be their fault and nothing whatsoever to do with the inept bunch who preceded them and threw our money around like so much confetti. It's odd how your lessons from history refer back so vividly to Thatcher's time yet stall abruptly at 1997 and the appalling antics New Labour have been up to ever since.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

And precisely what have Labour done for us recently that's any different?

At 41 you really should have developed a better perspective. It's all a game really. The (nasty) Tories get us back on track and balance the books so the country can actually pay it's way. Once we're back on an even keel the public get tired of living within their means and re-elect the (generous) Labour party, who then proceed to give generously to all and sundry until we're down on our uppers again. Wash, rinse, repeat..

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

You forgot the part where Tories under fund public services and Labour increase their funding drastically. Benefits to either and it depends on your outlook which you prefer. (Although it doesn't seem like there are many differences between them now).

I don't like it when someone gives a 'better perspective' when what they mean is 'my personal political view'. A better perspective would be a fair assessment of the two .

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

You say the tories screwed this country, Pray tell what do you think Brown and his bunch of muppets have been doing the last 10 or so years ????.

Labour no chance i would sooner waste my vote on the Liberals :LOL:

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

No he didn't - that was the part about balancing the books and making us live within our means, versus stealth taxes and cash splurged on the public sector.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I rather thought that *was* a fair assessment of the two. Personally I'd rather see a party in power that managed to find a halfway path between the two extremes. At the moment we're treading a path that cannot continue, simply because a country is no different to any family. You basically can't spend more than you earn. It's nice to have all the extra services but eventually it has to end in tears when the bills have to be paid.

As I said, a central path that could combine caring and financial responsibility would be the ideal but I fear that is too sensible for either party to ever embrace.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I think it's more a question of unwilling than unable. Many continental countries manage better public services than the UK without being much richer. It does mean higher taxation particularly for higher earners. That will never happen in the UK though.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Well the only cabinet that these will ever work on will come from MFI.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

It's a rather negative spin on it. If you look at the investment in Health Services across Europe we are still not near the levels of, say, France and that's after Labour poured vastly more money in. Labour may have taken one extreme in their spending but it seems the old Tories took the other extreme in their lack of spending.

Besides I don't think that's the case anymore. Labour know, admit it or not, that cuts need to be made in some places and the Tories know that the NHS must be well-funded and supported otherwise they will lose public support.

I don't much will change regardless of who will win (although Labour may well be paralysed and unable to do anything if they win).

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I may have missed some of them of course but I don't recall hearing many ringing endorsements of Brown's leadership qualities. Milliband in particular damned Brown with extremely faint praise...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...tatement-brown

Yet there they all are pretending to be right behind the PM and lying to us all yet again. If only these people were as good at running the country as they are at being duplicitous...

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Are you really just asking "recently," or the whole twelve years?

And how are they going to do "balance the books?"

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Just like anyone else - spend the money on the priorities, and spend less on the lower priority things.

How are Labour intending to balance the books?

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Okay then, what have Labour being doing for the last ten years that was worse than what the Tories did, between nineteen seventy-nine and nineteen ninety-seven? Remember, of course, that the recession we are in is not solely down to policies followed by this government. In case you missed it, it was a world-wide thing.

---------- Post added at 20:44 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

You mean like raisng the IHTthreshold for the rich?

How exactly will they "spend the money on the priorities?" Oh forgot, they don't know either.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Didn't Brown & Co announce their very own IHT concessions around the same time as the Tories were planning theirs? Not quite as generous but nevertheless a concession to some relatively well off people....

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

But back to the OP:

Didn't happen, did it?

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

It was a darned sight fairer. A married couple being able to transfer unused allowances, not such a bad idea really. Not as generous as raising it to two million pounds. I'll bet all those millionaires' children can't wait.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Nothing new there matey - so much of what Bliar and Brown promised never happened (and vice versa), it's been a long established New Labout trait you see.....

Anyway, while you're on the IHT bandwagon why don't you find out how much IHT those well known socialist benefactors the Millibands paid on their father's estate?

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I have no idea. I expect it would have been forty per cent on the remainder of the taxable estate, over the nil rate band. But I suspect you have something to contradict that.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Perhaps you should do a Google search and find out.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Aah, yes. Did that and they have not saved anything on their father's estate, seeing as it was all left to their mother.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

You may wish to search under "miliband deed of variation" - for instance

Where it states

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

I notice you inadvertently missed out the 'minor detail' Foreverwar linked to. Now I wonder why that'd be?.... :rolleyes:

I suppose you'll be claiming next that the Millibands don't count as wealthy...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ty-empire.html

Of course it could all be tabloid lies...

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

So, your whole point is that they made a deed of variation? Something that hundreds of thousands of people do? When my father died, we made a deed of variation in my mothers name, she needed the assets more than we did. Please point out where they did something illegal, or any different to anybody else?

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Why would he want to do that, when that's not the point he was making?

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Are you honestly saying you can't see the hypocrisy in making claims about the Tories and IHT, when the Miliband brothers (and apparently yourself) indulged in a practice that Gordon Brown called

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

First of all, my father was not exactly wealthy and we did not do it to avoid paying inheritance tax. Secondly, this is all legitimate IHT planning that everyone does and are entitled to do. There is only so far one can go with such planning. Most of it is a deferral exercise anyway, because they will end up inheriting the entire estate and will have to pay the tax in the end. The Tories, however, are attempting to actively help their rich buddies pay even less tax on the estates of their benefactors. The rules that help people mitigate their liability will always be there, in fact, I can quite see that any Tory incumbent will extend those rules to help the wealthy even further, as well as extending the nil rate band.

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

While Brown does deny any responsibility, the banks (who arguably did at least trigger the reception) were apparently operating under international rules and procedures apparently drawn up while GB was Chancellor of the Exchequor. Arguably, he would have had some involvement, being responsible for the economy and banking system of a major financial power and all..

Re: The knives are out for Brown...
 

Flyboy, you spend much of your time here preaching about those greedy, evil, Tories and accepting no excuses or mitigation whatsoever, yet when it's pointed out to you that those who lead your precious New Labour 'socialist' party are just as adept at feathering their own nests by, whatever means, as the worst fat cat Tories, you enter into a state of total denial.

As I suspect even you well know, my point wasn't about legality, it was about morality and hypocrisy - something which a great many of those at the helm your champagne socialist party evidently know very little about. Of course, at the same time and with their snouts firmly in the trough, they just love to preach ethics, morals, humanitarianism and civic duty to the rest of us....

BTW, I notice that other well known socialist humanitarian Bliar isn't averse to a bit of wealth, property ownership and nest feathering - sounds awfully 'Tory' that doesn't it....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6962649.ece

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ntry-home.html

You may not like the truth Flyboy but New Labour has more than it's fair share of greedy, self serving, morally bankrupt, hyprocrites.

---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------

Stuart, surely you must know by now that Brown is only ever responsible for things which go right which is why he's spent so long digging his way out of a mssive hole since Bliar stood aside. ;)

Brown's new election slogan ought to be: "Vote New Labour - When the wheels come off we'll blame someone else".