Full body scanners break child porn laws....
 

In an interesting development privacy campaigners, notably Privacy International, are pointing out that full body scanners (which the Government assure us will save more lives) are a step too far.

This could prove a crucial stage in the ongoing debate on (individual) privacy versus (personal, interpersonal, national, and commercial) security.

Re: Full body scanners break child porn laws....
 

Love the implied assumption that everyone viewing such images are potential paedophiles or to be perverted in some way...:erm:

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Where? I missed it.

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The offence is making the image.

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So apparently is taking any image of any child at any point which demonises all of us who just want an image of our own children in the swimming pool or at the school play if they happen to include any other child...

I think that Brass Eye did get it right after all..

Anyway I also love the way that the privacy angle is only for the benefit of children and not for adults..

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Privacy went out the window when CCTV appeared.

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So they'll just strap their bomb on a little kid, knowing he/she won't be searched. Stupid. Either everyone is scanned or no-one is, IMO.

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Missed the point entirely as usual..

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These full body scanners will be here to stay once installed and no one regardless of age or gender will be allowed to bypass this scanner, so if people do not want themselves or their children to be scanned then all they need to do is not fly.

I think security of the airlines is of paramount importance and completely overshadows any petty worries about civil liberties because of the requirement to be scanned.

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Playing devils advocate here - what if the ISP's were to introduce DPI on all communications over the web in an attempt to intercept / prevent the communication of instructions between terrorists?

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Kids should be scanned like everyone else surely. My four year and 18month old kids were frisked by security after setting off the metal detectors at Glasgow airport last week. They were thorough but sensitive to any issues we had with this. We were happy to let them search them for the reasons stated above about secreting bombs on kids. It's for our safety after all.....

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No, I think Gary has made a very good point. Full body scanners would have been absolutely unthinkable only 10 years ago (even if the technology had been available), but we have become the most spied-on country in Europe and the operators of our various CCTV systems have been playing a very canny PR game with us, releasing images of shocking criminality to news providers, and images of hilarious stupidity to ITV, in order to make us think that cameras are there for our safety and our entertainment and therefore beyond reproach.

The issue now may be child porn, but it has only been allowed to get this far because we've casually allowed our freedom to carry on our private business without 5 million TV viewers watching us, to be comprehensively eroded.

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Stupid law and a stupid scanner, which side to take? /headexplode

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I think people are missing the point.

There will be a very very small minority of these scanner operators who have a unhealthy interest in children.

Plus they will only be looking at the screens for <30 seconds

So what do we do then?

Allow kids to be full body scanned, or have them rubbed down?

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

Whats stopping some fanatic nutter taking his wife and kid on a plane, and putting the items on the kid.

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There are lots of points in this thread, and I don't think anyone is missing any of them. ;)

The point you are making, about being realistic about the actual number of perverts rather than the News-of-the-World-induced hysterically inflated number, is a very valid one and extends to society at large.

One of the staff at my son's school remarked to me the other week, as I was handing over the finished DVD of the Christmas play, that we were lucky we were still able to record and distribute it. All it takes is one parent to complain and that would be it, no cameras. Thankfully we're a small school and everyone knows everyone else, so that's less likely to happen. But in many larger schools, some parents who believe the hype have long since put a stop to the perfectly innocent pursuit of videoing the children being cute and dressed up for Christmas. And in other places, even where the parents haven't complained, excessively-cautious councils have done it for them.

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The problem or aeroplane and airport security is easily solved

Don't fly.

Put them out of business.

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What all because of a certain minority. I don't think so

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Sure, screw up our way of life and give the religious nutters exactly what they want. :rolleyes:

You may be ready to roll over and give up, I'm not.

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So we penalise the travel companies for the problems the terrorists are causing and the responses the Governments are proposing.

That is not logical, Captain......

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Once again i think there has been a massive overreaction on this to the point where are civil liberties are being taken away slowly but surely.

How many times have the terrorists actually made a plane come down? I know one is too many but somewhere the line has to be drawn.

Aren`t these scanners like the ones in Perfect Recall where only solid objects/outlines show up, i`ve not seen much info on what they show actually show.

Re: Full body scanners break child porn laws....
 

I think you mean Total Recall. ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CX9Agzeh-c

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I quite like that over-protective laws have come into conflict with another over-protective security measure.

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How much radiation are people exposed to by this machine. Little? What if you're a frequent flyer.

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I can see it now, headlines in The Sun.

"Man irradiated due to being a frequent flyer
sues government for being made sterile. Government says it wasnt there fault his sterility was in the nations security interest."

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I never cease to be amazed at the measures that are taken and the freedoms we have given up in the stupid hope we are safer. Personally i would rather take the chance of an attack then have my privacy invaded in anyway and remember peeps we in the UK used to do it all the time during the irish problems.

There is no foolproof way of making us 100% safe in our daily life and invading everyone's privacy in the way this government has in the last twelve years isn't a trade off i think is worth it. As for airport scanner's well if children cannot be scanned then the whole thing is a joke isn't it because does anyone seriously think a person wanting to blow up a plane will have a problem putting a bomb on the kid it is just ridiculous but sadly what we have come to expect these days.

I have only caught snippets of this on the news and havn't seen any images of what this scanner shows is it really that detailed that someone could get their jolly's from it ??.

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It shows you naked but not in any great detail but I believe you CAN make out private parts (I saw the tech on BBC News Technology site a while back) but the images "aren't stored" apparently. It had been trialled in Heathrow for a while before El Gov't decided to roll it out.

Apparently the Yanks already have these scanners at certain major airports too.

My view on the Child Scan thing is that - If certain demographics got out of it, then there's no point in it at all.

However I do think that our civil liberties are being eroded away bit by bit. It won't make us safer...if people want to find ways around them, they will, regardless of the security measures.

My issue at the moment is: The scanners look like stand up ones... How do amputee's or disabled people get scanned if they are in wheel chairs?? (However this is off-topic so I'll shush :))

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Yeah we could also cure AIDS by never having sex again, or football hooliganism by playing behind closed doors.
You may well be on to something here Tarantella.;)

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I guess now we find out which pariah is to be given the greatest priority. Quite ironic really but I suspect terrorism will win.

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Good point, ever wonder why the nurses run behind the screen when your having x-rays or why dentists don't hold the film with their hands during x-rays anymore.

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Well, at the end of the day, you don't have to have the scan. So, if your not bothered about your child's welfare, & your morals stop you allowing the scan, the child may die. Your choice.

Unless of course someone wants some compensation from the NHS!

Which I have no doubt will arise.

Re: Full body scanners break child porn laws....
 

?

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Nothing in forum rules that says you have to read a thread before posting.:)

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...not even the first post apparently ;)

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If i am honest i don't really know enough about the technology to really oppose it or support it. But if any group are exempt from it then the whole scheme should be binned rather then wasting millions implementing a system that would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

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Yes but there are rules about posting on topic..;)

These things are definetly NOT SAFE!!

I would advise everyone to demand a MANUAL SEARCH instead of going thru this!!

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Is that a personal belief, or a fact? If it's a fact, do you have a link to back it up?

Just interested. I personally don't think these scanners are a good thing. Not so much because of what they do (after all I don't consider them to be any more intrusive than xrays), but what they represent. They represent a system that , with the apparent aim of protecting us, is increasingly monitoring us, and increasingly reducing our civil liberties. In the process, causing us far more inconvenience than any terrorist and, IMO, achieving the terrorist's aims far better than any act of terrorism has or will do..

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Are these statements based on a career in airport security? Or a review of the medical literature?

Or a "busy" Saturday night?

---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

Part of that system is politicians thinking they have the answer to everything, newspapers wanting a good headline, and companies wishing to promote their latest gadget.

Oh, and a public willing to lap it all up without engaging many of their brain cells.

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Dude111 as others have said link to something other then your opinion or i will happily dismiss your statement. Agree totally with Stuart on this and i hope the british people wake up from their twelve ten year slumber soon and realise what sacrifices we have made for so called safety.

Well its like getting an x-ray,these things produce RADIATION!!

Its not good to be exposed to them.. (@ least i wouldnt want to be)

Heres one article

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/articl...rt-scanners.do

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The thing is, the human body is actually rather good at dealing with small doses of radiation. It does so every day (sunlight, artificial light, heat, electricity, radiowaves are some examples).

That article says that people need to be exposed to 5,000 scans a year before it is dangerous. This is unlikely for a passenger. Hell, one of my friends travels so often for work that his annual travel expenses are three times his annual salary (and that is a considerable sum), but I suspect even he doesn't fly anywhere near 1,000 times a year.

It's interesting that the examples they pick are staff, who could well be exposed to more than 5,000 scans a year. The staff who use these should be protected. Why do you think that despite the fact that Xrays are safe for patients, the staff operate the machine from within a booth? It's because while a few doses of radiation may be safe, several thousand wouldn't be.

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Phew i was worried for a minute then so if i win the lottery and become a frequent flyer i must remember to stop at trip 4,999 good to know :rolleyes:. Seriously do you refuse an xray because of the same reason or are you sitting at home with many bone deformaties because you don't go near an xray. I am sure there are many legitimate reasons and debates to be had for and against these scanner's but health grounds i suspect is not one of them.

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I wasn't saying that either these scanners or x-rays are dangerous for us. The staff, maybe.

I also wasn't arguing against the scanners on health grounds..

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Lol i wasn't replying to you Stuart but Dude :) i have agreed with what you have said so far but completely fail to understand Dude's position. I am getting on a bit but no that far gone yet that i would reply to you with what i said give me a few more years :D.

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It doesn't show a naked image of the person it's scanning.

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Depends how you define "image"

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They can scan my body all they want if it helps to stop some nutter blowing up the plan i am flying on.

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dont know where to be on this one

a: i think body scanners are a waste of time and unlikely to help at all in preventing terrorists

b: the pictures only become an issue if they are being taken or used in a unlawful manner the "Criminal Justice and Immigration Act" made it an offence to have any image ( ex stream image i think it actually says ) "solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal" the problem there would only occur if the operator ( person viewing ) intended to use it that way

then there is the "Coroners and Justice Bill" which makes any image ( technicaly any image that they think is a child even if they are not is covered this way too ) infact having any part of the child even say a foot in the picture where the use of the picture is for sexual gratification makes it illegal ( even drawn pictures could fall under this law)

BUT for the life of me i cant see how any of it applies if they vet the operators unless they are oing to do thought probes on them to see if they are thinking illegal thoughts

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

they can, they can with software give a near perfect BW image

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I believe there's software available for analysing the images as well, which means that it's not necessary to have a human operator viewing the images. I don't know how reliable this software is though.

Yea ya got a good point mate :)

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You sould complain directly to the manufacturer - I doubt they'd be reading CF.;)

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Its quite simple really, you get to the airport and they say please stand in front of this scanner, you know if you comply you fly and if you don't, you won't.

The will always be someone who will refuse and then they will not get to fly and their refusal will cause them to forfeit the cost of the flight and any holiday they have booked, as no insurance company would payout in those circumstances.

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No actually, as the original article points out it's not that simple. Certain individuals are currently exempted from being subject to the scans.

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The vast majority will have to comply or they will not fly.

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Again, certain individuals are currently exempted from being subject to the scans. That was part of my reason for starting the thread in the first place.

The vast majority of those who fly are not trying to blow up planes - therefore their compliance, in this context, is largely irrelevant.

I would tend to be more suspicious of that particular type of passenger whom you have identified as those who might buy a ticket and book a holiday, knowing they will be scanned, who intend turning up at the airport only to refuse to be scanned.

Yes, those are exactly the types we need to be on the lookout for.

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why it wont do what it says on the packet anyhow many ways to impregnate clothing with the chemicals needed for the type of bomb they are supposedly looking for that would evade this type of scanner so the real bomber would most likely volunteer to go through so as to get through with not to much hassle with simple methods available on plane to recover and use them ( they still give you water and alcohol )

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I saw this and was quite impressed. Need to give him a job!

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-little-bother

Admin edit (Chris): Now linked to original article

Re: Full body scanners break child porn laws....
 

I've changed your link so it points to the original news source, rather than the forum where it was copied and pasted in its entirety. ;)

Very interesting find though. I wonder what the chances are of this country ever implementing something so simple yet effective.

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wouldn't work here

for their small airport with mostly jews travelling its fairly easy for them to use the "if their nervous we check them" system but in a large national airport for one thing we couldn't afford to pay all the people we would need to try to do that or the training time

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I think it is a good approach, but Ben-Gurion airport has the same travel stats as Birmingham airport (just above 10 million passengers a year), so Heathrow/Gatwick may have a problem with all these manual checks.

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I thought the discussion after was prtty interesting so I thought i'd link and kill 2 birds with one stone but whatever works.

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Fair point - here's the forum link as well, in that case :)

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...le-bother.html

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I see no obvious reason why the process couldn't be scaled up. Also if you look at the number of passengers as a proportion of population (for the provision of trained, available staff) Ben Gurion is quite a bit "busier" than Heathrow.

Behavior profiling isn't anything particularly new but the having lots of small, unintrusive checks instead of 1 lrge intrusive one is quite radical. But makes sense when you think about it. With 'our' way, you only need to fool 1 or members of staff. They could be tired or lazy or new. The chances are you won't get lazy, tired or new staff if you meet 7 or 8 of them along the way.

I would like to know the false-positives rate though and how well they are dealt with.

I think we can learn a lot from Israel. They've suffered from terrorism for 50 odd years now almost constantly at the level of The Troubles. We're quite lucky in that respect.

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the two questions going into the car park would bring the roads arround the biggest airports to a stand still to start off


upscalling this wont work they deal with a far less diverse amount of people over there to here

better would be to use the lists they already have that have had all the people that have got on the planes already on it before they got on and get people to properly use that information which they clearly are not doing at the moment

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The ex-squaddies who served here in NI will probably recall that several procedures similar to the Ben Gurion set up were in place at the then Aldergrove (now Belfast International) airport during The Troubles™.

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Is that good or bad?

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It worked out pretty good from a safety perspective.

That said, you were dealing with a different calibre of terrorist / terrorist mindset in those days so getting explosives onto a flight was not perhaps a priority back then.

The random stop & check on the approach roads, nevermind the on site security checks, was enough to deter anyone trying anything.

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i think the fact that blowing up planes would likely had a bad impact on the economy of southern Ireland had a lot to do with them not blowing up planes and that they didnt often commit suicide attacks was as big a factor as the security which was more aimed in any case on tracking where they were and where they were going

and a again wasnt a big airport in real terms

if you just want to stop walk on bombers the best option is as i said get every one to strip put them in the white crime scene suits and give them back their stuff at the other end

those like me who need meds etc would need to arrange in advance for meds to be on plane

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Interesting article in Private Eye (8th - 21st January, page 6 top right of page).

It's about the full body scanners. It starts off by pointing out that GB has followed his leaders (the US) and announced implementation at UK airports, despite the fact that these scanners are unlikely to detect liquid or plastic explosives.

It also makes the point that in the week after the attempted bombing, a certain Michael Chertoff (Bushs ex-homeland security advisor) was telling anyone in the media that congress need fund a large scale implemention of next generation security systems, and blaming the American Civl Liberties Union for holding them back.

The said Chertoff eventually admitted (after a direct question on CNN) that his lobbying company has RapiScan (the manufacturer of the scanners in question) as a client.

---------- Post added at 00:31 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

Which wouldn't stop people stuffing the components of liquid explosives in various orifices, and would actually slow getting on/off planes too much to be viable.

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the scanners that they are deploying wont pick up on internal smuggled explosives anyway so the body suit is better idea than them as it gets rid of all options of smuggling it on in or under your clothes something the body scanners cant claim either ;)

as to internal smuggling nothing bar full body cavity searches maybe along with proper X ray body scans would do that
see
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...body-cavities/
http://www.neschllc.com/

as to time taken still would be a lot less than the idea of following Israeli way of doing it and If every one knew they would be changing i would think they would come in simple to change stuff any how ;)

hmm can i patent the "all in one pre flight paper body" suit easy to tear of before flight

could be a money spinner that ;)

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Now the Equality and Human Rights Commission says the scanners may breach the Human Rights Act (right to privacy):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8464266.stm

Re: Full body scanners break child porn laws....
 

Is there a right to privacy when travelling on private property?

On a high street or at a corden outside of a protest target is one thing, but noone's forced to travel by air.

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Depends. If it's enshrined in law, there probably is. After all, UK laws apply as long as you are on UK soil, whether you are on private property or not.

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Surely getting frisked by a security guard is just the same and probably more infringing of privacy :shrug:

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i still dont see that as the big problem with it ( and i am normally all for privacy lol ) the problem is it wont make travelling any safer any how

the scanner companies are most likely loving the privacy side show as they haven't had to bother trying to cover up the glaring problems with their equipment when you read the info on them including that it most likely wouldn't have stopped either of those who tried to blow up planes

see http://www.alan.com/2010/01/03/body-...as-day-bomber/

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/200..._answered.html

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/05/18...ty.body.scans/

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

yep it may be more intrusive but it stands a better chance of working than the scanners

and in fact the scanners could make it less safe as if you pass it your very unlikely to face further checks

so if you have a plastic syringe and powder in your underpants you will now most likely be more likely to get on the plane than before where a pat down may very well brought about some suspicion about what you were carrying down there ;)

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I cant see how they can break child porn laws, from my understanding the images seen cannot be saved anyway so theres no chance of images being passed on.

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The law that may be being broken is the one that makes it illegal to create the images.

That's what makes it possible for the police to successfully prosecute people who have only downloaded such images from the Internet, but not necessarily traded in them.

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but isnt porn creating sexually expicit images for a purpose where this isnt for that purpose.

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I don't believe the law makes that distinction as clearly as you appear to be applying it.

It simply states that it is an offence to make 'indecent' images of a child, but then fails to define what 'indecent' is. This means that the definition of 'indecent' in each case is down to the judgement of the judge/jury in the case if it is prosecuted.

Case law established around this also doesn't allow for the purpose for which the image was made to be taken into account when establishing 'decency' - this means that the fact that these images were made purely for the purposes of security doesn't mean that they are not indecent.

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The EHRC seems to think there is.

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I have no problem with theprivacy aspect of this because as has been said no one is forced to go flying and if they choose too it's usually with an understanding that you may be checked thoroughly anyway. Where i do have a problem is the UK spending money on what might be completely useless and inadequate technology more so at a time when so many other areas of spending are about to get walloped with a big cuts axe.

But this is labour and you know their unofficial saying "a soundbite on the news is worth a few million of the publics money wasted".

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I'd take issue with the idea that 'nobody is forced to go flying' Rizz - plenty of people have to go flying regularly as part of their job. I once had responsibilities that required me to fly to Dublin twice a month for 6-8 months. There was no way I could have done the job otherwise - and it is not a simple matter to just find another job.

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Ooops. They seem to pick up things made of metal just like traditional scanners but mess up the whole exploding pants detection.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive..._tv_on_th.html

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which is what was saying i really dont see the privacy issue on this one ( lol strange for me ;) ) its just that all the stuff i read on it just shows it doesn't do what it says on the packet

and is more likely imho to make things less safe as you can guarantee once you pass the scanner test most will not be stopped and just rushed through to the plane while they investigate the 2 year old on the list ;)

http://www.fly.co.uk/news/mix-up-lea...t-1982193.html

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another one says how they most likey wont help

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/16/20100130...s-6315470.html

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Just to make things worse the staff can't be trusted not to take the printouts and force movie stars to sign them.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/bollywoo...re-claims.html

Hmmm, of course he couldn't be making things up for publicity and the staff just popped in an ink-jet when waiting for anyone remotely famous or good looking to go through the scanner. :D

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all you would need is camera or camera phone to get a copy straight off of the screen then access to a printer

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Didn't take long did it!

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Nope! If they're such a good idea I'd like to see Brown and Mandelson go through them.. :D

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That's exactly what I thought when I saw the report. :tu:

Mind you, I think most of us suspected, human nature being what it is, that it was only a matter of time before this, quite depressing, eventuality became a reality. :(

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when you say "you'd like to see" surely you don't actually mean....

:sick::sick:

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And of course, without the use of the scanner, he had never noticed the size of her breasts? :erm:

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I should clarify, I'd like to see them have to do it without viewing the resulting images... ;)

http://www.unisyssecurityindex.com/uk

Anyone believe this report??

I find it hard to believe so many people would give up thier privacy and go thru something that MIGHT BE HARMFUL to them!

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Anyone choosing not to be scanned chooses not to fly as it is a requirement to be scanned.