Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor..._Supreme_Court


Not sure what to say on this, have mixed feelings. Any other thoughts?

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

"The amount of heroin he brought into China was 4,030g, enough to cause 26,800 deaths, threatening numerous families," it said.

says it all imo

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We are talking about a country that until recently still left baby girls to die and has been known to harvest organs from executed criminals,to shoot protesting citizens and encouraged forced abortions...

I suspect that they think they have come a long way in the last 70 years as regards human rights and they are right..It's just that they haven't gone far or fast enough for the rest of the world.:(

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I think in normal circumstances I would have said something else, but as the guy had mental health problems which the Chinese ignored/dismissed they are out if order.

Mind you the chinese execute more people per year than the rest of the planet put together.

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I can think of a country not a million miles from here which is currently in the process of extraditing a man who has been shown to be medically ill, to a country that is claiming highly overinflated damages for the crimes he allegedly committed, and which will most likely throw him in jail to rot for a large part of his remaining adult life.

China have followed their own legal process and, whether we like it or not, they have found this man guilty of a crime, sentanced him according to that process, and then carried out the sentance.

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Yes, I have something to say.

I think the Daily Express should seek to employ journalists, sub editors and editors with a fundamental grasp of the english language who know the difference between "heroin" and "heroine".

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He broke the law in china. He was tried in china. His punishment was issued by the Chinese. Fair play. He shouldn't have been trafficking drugs. It's one less scummy drug pusher off everyones streets as far as I'm concerned. Good ridence.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Except for the fact they ignored the mental health problems.

Plus the fact the chinese execute for very minor crimes

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

perhaps his family and supporters should have kept a better eye on him if he was that ill , and was there any evidence of his alleged illness submitted to the courts ?

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Crimes punishable by death in china

Unlike some other countries practicing capital punishment, in China, financial crimes such as counterfeiting, fraud, tax fraud, corruption, property crimes such as theft, and smuggling cultural relics, gold, silver or other precious metals can be punishable by death. These are some of the 68 crimes that are eligible for the death penalty in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...hable_by_death

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

A dedicated link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_...ublic_of_China

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Yep, they did - and so do other countries.

Agreed, but they don't keep those crimes a secret nor do they keep secret the fact that they will execute for them.

China has a specific set of laws, and a specific set of punishments, and whether we consider them right or wrong all they've done here is follow them.

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Bipolar disorder does not stop you knowing that carrying huge amounts of class A about is wrong. It didn't stop him having 3 children. It didn't stop him knowing how to get from the uk to china on a plane. It's a convenient catalyst for bringing rise to an excuse in order for the propaganda machine to make us look through furrowed brows at a country that is currently percieved as a rising threat due to the fact they refuse to run their country the way the west tells them, including how and who to trade with.

The guy broke the law big time and got caught. Tough poo poos.

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I have mixed views, most in favor of China. I can't say what I think on a family forum as it wouldn't go down well.

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It sounds like he got caught and tried to wriggle out of it.

He didn't suceed.

Justice was done.

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What he said and his "illness" was a cop out plus some more.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

He was caught carrying 4 kilo's of drugs and was prosecuted and found guilty under Chines law and was sentenced to be shot under their laws.

Why should we complain about justice being seen to done, or is it because we have got to lenient and nowadays we would be more likely to give someone like this a slap on the wrist rather than an adequate sentence for the crime committed.

We need to look inwards at our own inadequacies with regards to crime and sentencing people before passing comment on other countries who uphold their laws and sentence the offenders accordingly.

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It's because our government has turned "us" Brits, into a bunch of whinning moaning, gawd knows what. All we do is moan, it's what we are good at.

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Shown how exactly? Using X-rays?
As in the case you are obviously referring to, the alleged diagnosis happened after being caught.

Just because a maximum sentence can be a long period, doesn't mean that the actual sentence will be anything like that. 'Misconduct in public office' offence in this country carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. Has anyone convicted of that 'crime' received anything like that long a sentence.

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I'll not be shedding any tears for this fool....

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I think the saying "Drugs will kill you" can in some circumstances work both ways. If you deal in drugs you should be willing to take the punishment.

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Great Mr T impersonation.:)

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He knew what he was doing and took the risk and has now paid the price, should that price have been execution? I really don't know but that is the law in that country and I am sure he knew that before he went.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

what is a just punishment for a peddler of death ?

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

As I said I don't know, I am not saying execution is wrong or right. What I do know is that mentally ill or not he knew what he was doing and as such he was punished by the laws of the country which he committed his crime in.

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He was prosecuted under Chinese law and sentenced according to their laws so we cannot say that another country is wrong because their laws differ from ours in many ways.

If you do a crime in another country do not expect to be treated in the same way that the UK would treat such a crime and ignorance is no defence in law regardless of whatever country you are travelling to, if it is illegal in this country then assume that it is also illegal in that country.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

He would have almost certainly found guilty in this country and the 'alleged'(and convenient) mental condition wouldn't have been taken into account, so why all the fuss?

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

On the contrary, if there was any suspicion of a mental health issue it would have been thoroughly investigated and if necessary, taken into account at the relevant point (whether that be while assessing culpability, or in sentencing).

And, as the UK has the advantage of not killing people who are convicted of crimes, if for some reason the possibility of mental health issues only came to light after a conviction, there's always the possibility of an appeal in order to clear things up. An avenue not available to this man or any of the others sent to their deaths by oppressive regimes like China and Texas.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I shed no tears for him, he was caught taking drugs into a country where the penalty is death.

I find it all very odd, his family is painting a picture of a vulnerable person not responsible for his actions. This does not add up if he was able to travel to China on his own, surely they would have stopped him if they had concerns.

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I agree totally maybe I just worded it wrong in my post.

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How would they know?

I could get up now and leave and tomorrow phone my family from anywhere in the world and not told them in advance.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

live by the sword,die by the sword

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

But he didn't have a sword (probably couldn't get it through the metal detector at the airport).

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Okay okay. Live by the drugs, die by the drugs

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Pretty much how I see this situation, he was tried according to their law and that's all there is. How would it be different if we were going to execute someone for something and China butted in and try to change and dispute our laws, would we like it or make it any right or wrong?

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Cause we would back down in case we "offended" anyone. :dozey:

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next people will be saying "live by the air, die by the air"

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:clap: :clap:

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I thought by the way we tried to stop the execution that it might work to start with, hoping we have some saying in the matters, but now that it's done, I have to respect China's decision. I don't think they had any choice in the matter now that it's done. If it was this in this country and China tried to interrupt it, then I think yeah we have too much leniency and might have gave in, but we wouldn't have the respect nor the have that message that other countries have.

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It's simply the "English" Government pushing their weight around, trying to "get China" to do something they don't wanna. If anybody tried that here, to tell us "how to run" our laws, our PM would have a field day and another point they keep referring, which is annoying me but I will keep my tongue behind my teeth.

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I get the feeling they knew it was a pointless exercise, but had to be seen that they tried more than anything.

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my main concern here is the way the chinese conducted the trial ,as has been commented on by several news agencies it was little more than a kangaroo court ,now if the defendant was suffering from bi-polar which is quite possible then under chinese law he should not have been executed ,the problem is though the defence wasn't allowed to produce any expert witnesses to prove otherwise so one has to wonder why the courts decided to abandon due process in this case was it because he was a foriegner and they felt that some kind of point had to made ,i don't know the answer but it makes me very uneasy how easy it could be to get executed in china given the number of capital offences there are in china

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

It can happen, and has happened - Gorbachev raised the cases of the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six when he met Margaret Thatcher in 1989.

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I thought that the bi-polar only came out after the hearing, so some last min clemency should have been accepted, that's the only part that I don't agree with. But then again I don't know all the ins and outs nor why this only came out afterwards and not during the trial.

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Bi-Polar, is constant. Jeykle & Hyde situation. They can't control and or know what they are doing.

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I know but he didn't have any kind of psychiatric evaluation (or did he) or why his defense didn't use it (wasn't an issue at that point) or they didn't know at the time. Why didn't they know seems a bit odd as well as the fact it only came out close to the execution.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Hit the nail on the head there I think "came out" close to his execution. i think the phrase desperation comes to mind. He knew what was going to happen, hell. So they used that as a "trump" card.

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that may be the case ,i have found a few conflicting accounts but the Supreme Peoples Court (chinese version of appeal)did not allow any further evidence reguarding his mental state as they felt they were perfectly aware of his mental state

heres a link i found from a chinese daily from a couple of months ago

http://www.chinadaily.cn/opinion/200...nt_8797074.htm

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

That's exactly how I see it, just a clutching at straws scenario maybe. I'm sure he knew exactly what he was doing regardless of the consequences but that's the way it goes. China doesn't like messing about and fair do basically, I'm sure we would have delayed to confirm/dismiss anything like that, but that's their law and that's end of it basically.

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Yup and our PM interfering just annoyed them even more..

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It's how they decide who's a fruitcake really. If he conducted himself through out in a normal manner then would a last min "I''m a nutter" work? I doubt it. I don't know the ins and outs at all, but I'm sure the main people can make a proper (and hopefully a fair) assessment.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I think people should read this.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Excellent post, Mr Angry.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

It's still only could and not is, and that was after being caught and held in prison awaiting a death sentence. There were more than 2 years between arrest and sentence being carried out.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

He knew what he was doing and paid the price.
A `mentally ill` man does not just aquire 4 kilos of Heroin. Tough.:rolleyes:

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

"Though he was sentenced to death shortly after, the Foreign Office was not notified for many months.."

"Chinese authorities have refused repeated requests for Shaikh to be evaluated by a doctor"

We can all do selective cut and pastes.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Doesn't it say that if someone has mental health problems then China's own law says they wont exicute them but they ignored their own laws and went ahead to exicute him without taking any examinations of him.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

And if he had been examined by a British doctor:-
a) The examination would have been after being caught, kept in prison, and facing a death sentence and not how he was at the time of arrest.
b) As the death penalty rested on the conclusion of an examination, would the doctor have said anything other than he had a newly diagnosed medical condition that could not be proved?
c) And even considering b, the doctor still only said could.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

a couple of things there;

1) his state of mind and it's degredation was, according to the report, under question by those around him starting in 2001. he was executed in 2009 with his first psychological evaluation taking place not too long before his sentance was carried out. what happened there then? his family and friends thought he'd lost it, but let him get on with life anyway? right-o

2) that bit at the bottom... "guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media 2009". hopefully not part of some propeganda machine, eh?!

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

its all irrelevant now he's been executed none of us will ever know his state of mind .

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Its a pity there isn`t a mandatory death sentence for all drug dealers & traffickers.

As far as I`m concerned, if you deal in drugs, good riddance to you.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

If either of you (nomadking or Bender) dared to look beyond what has been spoonfed to you you would discover that Akmal Shaikh himself denied that he suffered from a mental illness (the one thing that might have saved him).

nomadking - the correct factual context is that Dr Schaapveld said it could have been either ..but the fact was, whether it was bipolar or schizophrenia, he was 99% certain that Shaikh was suffering from a mental disorder.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Oh great. A thread encompassing the Death Penalty and having a go at foreigners. If someone says that he didn't pay for his TV license or was only killed due to his religion I'll have to go and lie down somewhere dark till everything calms down. :)

And funnily enough a great number of people who are up for sentencing do claim to have undiagnosed mental conditions which are normally taken at face value when submitted to the court by the defence.

I've mixed feelings, the guy obviously wasn't quite right, whether he wasn't right enough not to know what he was doing or that carrying 4 kilos of smack into China was a really bad idea isn't for me to say.
At the end of the day their country, their rules.

Strangely for a Government so opposed to the death penalty I don't remember the same outcry and demands for clemency when a certain dictator of a middle eastern country in between Saudi Arabia and Iran was facing the rope.

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Ding! ding! We have a winner. Well said.

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And could his behaviour have been described as completely sane?

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No. Mind you my personal opinion is someone who murders someone to death isn't quite sane and I've have no qualms about them being put to death (after the relevant trials obviously)

At the risk of sounding callous he was a fruitloop. We'll never know if he was in the harmless eccentric side of fruitloopery or the howling at the moon and drinking paint side.
If he survived for 53 years without being diagnosed with any form of mental illness I'm tempted to believe the extent of the problems might have been exaggerated a little in an attempt to get a reduction in sentence.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

He trafficked drugs into an anti drug country he got caught thefore he deserved the punishment. I don't buy this mental health issue thing. He knew what he was doing in everyway. Wasn't he a Muslim?? I thought Muslims were against drugs?? Oh I forgot they are against them but they'll sell you them.

---------- Post added at 03:56 ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 ----------

Can I take his place on the Council housing list please??:shocked:

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Yeah from what little I have heard, I tend to think so to, he was mental enough to think he was going to be a pop star but sane enough to get through over 50 years of life and travel to China. Didn't really like China's responce though, we have every right to question the sentencing of one of our citizens, who do they think they are.

---------- Post added at 07:22 ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 ----------

I am pretty sure that mental illness isn't taken into account in sentencing. It's relevence is ascertained before guilt is established, sounds bizarre but according to some chap on the radio that's the way it is there.

---------- Post added at 07:28 ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 ----------

Would have liked to have but the links not working anymore, probably those Chinese hackers again :)

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Wow! most unlike you to say something negative against Muslims.....

He lived in Poland before he went to China, so feel free.;)

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Now this is getting more wierd in my opinion, whithout sound racist etc etc. If he lived in Poland, how the heck can he be called a Britt? Thats been annoying the heck outta me for days now :D

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Born here I presume or a British Passport.

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Okay fair enough. I aint saying nothing more.

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I have no idea if that is true but the only conclusion I can think of about his citizenship.;)

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Yup, I'm just keeping stum LOL

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British passport. Born in Pakistan, moved here as a child and also lived in the USA before moving to Poland.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

is there another way to murder someone hehehehehehe

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This clearly depends on the state's own interpretation of "unlawful."

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The news were bigging it up.

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---------- Post added at 03:57 ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 ----------

He broke the law he deserved to go, I'll slate these people all I like because they are hypocrites IMO.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I wouldn't recommend taking anything on board from the bnp site. ;)

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However if its true then they have a point would you not say, I would be most upset if that's the norm for the BBC.

It would be interesting to see how much cover our so called national tv provider did give coverage wise to the 2 events.



(Note i do not support the BNP) Just to point that out before the standard few and they know who they are have a tissy fit and start accusing me of being a BNP supporter

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

If they do not know that you abhor the BNP and all it stands for by now then they are either blind or stupid.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I doubt the figures are accurate but if they are than it doesn't surprise me.

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To be fair, I suppose the amount of time depends partly on how much there is to report and if there are people to interview etc.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Would that be the figures that declare tens of thousands of pensioners have died this year, because they can't afford their heating bills?

Or is it the number of drug dealers in the ranks of the BNP; I wonder what their position is on these.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

How many times over recent years, have we heard the same story over drug related problems involving British subject.

That country has laws it abides by, and it clearly shows in some foriegn country, large signs, clearly saying about drugs being brought into the country, if this poor guy was ill, why wasn't someone with him to stop 'someone' giving him the drugs to carry.

I feel very sad for the poor guy and his family, but laws are there for a reason.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

:clap: Well said.

Live by the sword die by the sword is my motto to

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Point one, he was apparently duped into carrying the bag, he was allegedly unaware of the contents.

Point two, do you expect everyone with a mental illness to be chaperoned everywhere all the time?

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"did you pack all the bags yourself, sir?"

"nope"

"are you carrying any luggage for anyone else?"

"erm.... yes"

"did you check the luggage for it's contents, sir?"

"oh... "

if they a ill enough that they will willing take someone elses bags on a flight when they tell you they will meet you at the other end of the journey, yes.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I agree with you 100%

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He managed for 53 years to travel around and he was living in Poland prior to flying out with another persons suitcase which he will have declared as his own and fell foul of Chinese laws.

Then he suddenly developed a mental illness which was debunked and was sentenced under Chinese law under which UK laws have no jurisdiction.

As he is now dead the is little that we can say apart from the hope that this thread may prevent another person from being a drug mule and falling foul of another countries laws.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Debunked by whom, exactly?

The Chinese singularly refused to have him medically examined (even in an attempt to "debunk" any assertion that he was mentally ill).

"The Chinese authorities originally indicated a willingness to allow him to be assessed by a local doctor, but the court subsequently refused. Reprieve immediately sought permission for British psychologist Dr Schaapveld to see Akmal, and paid for him to fly to China - where he too was inexplicably refused access."

People would do well to read up a little before going off on this "he deserved it", "he wasn't mentally ill", "I support this sentence 100%" ill informed sheepish populism that is being spouted on this thread.

Read the written statements from those who knew him, who incidentally had & have nothing, whatsoever, to gain from their actions - before you spout drivel about anyone having "debunked" anything.

The only thing that has been "debunked" is the notion that Britain carries any weight whatsoever in world affairs or diplomacy.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I thought Bi-polar was a mood swing issue and not prone to an inability for working out right from wrong .

Having worked with many who have had severe mental issues including Bipolar, I won't be shedding too many tears for one who tried to smuggle smack into a country known for little tolerance for such acts to ruin more lives.

Being depressed does not mean being stupid as this guy is trying to imply.

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Up till his trial no one mentioned his supposed illness and anyway he broke chinese law and was duly tried and executed for trying to take 4 kilos of heroin into their country.

He broke their law, was tried in their courts, was found guilty under their laws, he was executed under their laws.

Are we supposed to feel pity for a drug runner, I do not think so and so do many other people.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Again, you quite obviously didn't bother to read anything.

"The Chinese authorities originally indicated a willingness to allow him to be assessed by a local doctor, but the court subsequently refused."

Nobody is asking anyone to to feel pity for drug runners - the issue at hand is the very real possibility, based not only on the written statements referenced earlier but also on the fact that nobody else was ever identified, questioned, arrested or charged, that Mr Shaikh was duped into carrying something he knew nothing about - there is a very distinct difference.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

They have no need for him to examined under their laws at all, he was caught smuggling and was duly sentenced to die by firing squad.

Maybe if other countries did the same then we would have less drug mules either through chose or executed I do not care which.

He was duped into carrying a bag that was not his, this defence has been used worldwide and for once it was ignored because he chose to carry the bag with the drugs and was not forced into it.

I am sick of people trying to use excuses like that, if you are caught carrying drugs because you carried the case for the nice man, then you alone are to blame because after all the publicity over the years you are still to stupid to take any notice.

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So again you didn't bother reading anything. He had a right to a full medical examination / evaluation under the terms of his right to appeal for clemency / commutation of his death sentence. The Chinese ignored requests for a medical examination - they didn't "debunk" anything.

Yes I agree - but only where there is no reasonable doubt as to their intent & guilt.

Yes, so it would appear - he was indeed duped.

Nobody, anywhere, has suggested he was "forced" to carry the case. The assertion of those who believe him to have been unjustly tried and executed is that he was mentally ill, vulnerable to exploitation and unaware of the contents of the suitcase. His mental fragility is abundantly clear from the numerous written statements from individuals who knew him personally if you would bother to read them.

If only real life were as "black and white" as you'd like it. You make it sound as though mental illness is a commonly used excuse for drug trafficking when in actual fact it isnt. Naivety, stupidity and lack of common sense / regard for the law are not, in any shape or fashion, the same as mental illness being exploited for criminal ends.

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He carried a case full of drugs belonging to another person into a country with strict anti drug laws and did it of his own free will, he then got caught and was tried accordingly under that countries law and he was then sentenced to death and was shot.

He broke their laws and it is of no consequence what we think about the case as China stood by the countries laws and carried out his sentence.

As I have said before if this happened in other countries then maybe the would be less drugs on the street, but most of these countries chicken out and commute them to life and even after a few years send them home.

If it was widely known that you will be executed if caught smuggling drugs into these countries then maybe this would be a thing of the past.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

You still haven't taken in anything Mr Angry has said. :rolleyes:

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sorry, Mr. Angry, but the guy was caught smuggling a large amount of a very illegal substance.

he chose to carry a package for someone else on a plane. a package which we can only assume he did not check.

the person he held it for told him they would meet him at the other end of the journey to retrieve the package, which in itself should ring alarm bells - why didn't the person take it themselves if they are going there anyway?

Bi-Polar, the disorder which is being used in connection with this mans name, does not make one stupid nor naive. if it were affecting his lifes judgement so much as to let him agree to carry a parcel in the alleged circumstances set out above, then;
1) I find it hard to believe he could have successfully organised, funded and travelled the journey by himself, or
2) he should have been accompanied by one of his friends or family, whom are now stating the believed he was suffering mental illness since around 2001.

if the latter is true, why did they apparently not seek medical help for him many years ago?

At the end of the day, he was caught carrying out an illegal process in China by the Chinese. He was sentenced there under their laws. the UK has no part to play in their laws and nor should they, as we would not expect the Chinese to have over our own laws in the UK.

in my personal view, this is simply a case of him actually getting caught. the media has had such a frenzy over it because the UK/Chinese relationship is currently strained as China is becoming wealthy and powerful and all without the 'backing' (though I feel 'consent' is a more apt term) of the western world which, obviously, the UK and US don't like as it means they cannot tell China how to run the country or how and who to trade with (ie, in US dollars).

he has been caught.
he has been executed.
the drugs are off the street is he is no longer drug running. in my view, the situation has been dealt with for the best all round outcome.
he should not have been running drugs.
he should not have been holding a parcel on a plane for the bigger boys in the playground - ESPECIALLY without checking it (which in itself is idiotic and not a result of Bi-Polar).

I personally think some praise is due to the Chinese in the handling of the situation for the fact they stuck to their guns and carried it through without being bullied by the West. unfortunately, this has led to a great propaganda story for the UK media, making out the Chinese are the baddies when in fact it was a Brit who was totally breaking the law and aiding the life-wrecking and potential death of some estimated 28 thousand heroine abusers and fuelling the continued running and pushing of a very dangerous substance. If only all countries took it as seriously as the Chinese, a lot more lives would be saved. not only those of the users, but those of their families too, who have to suffer the aftermath of dealing with drug abuse and possible death of loved ones due to it.

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

Such as what, that he was not examined to find out if he was ill, China have their laws and if they chose to carry them out as they see fit as a sovereign country who are we to interfere.

This guy was well enough to live in Poland before this and survive quite well.

He got asked to carry a bag and did it no questions asked, many people do that are we to assume that they are all ill in some way.

At 53 years of age he must have been quite aware of the stance that all countries have on drugs being smuggled into their country.

I do not feel sorry that it happened as it may stop a few other people from doing something similar.

As others have said in this thread "Live by the sword, Die by the sword"

Re: Anger After British Man Executed In China
 

I wish drug smugglers and pushers caught here could be sent to China with a few ounces of drugs in their pockets... it might prove a worthy deterrent.