Drink drivers face car crushing
 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...6908-21878719/

Deterrent or going too far?

It will only be used where they have a previous conviction or pending case for drink driving so they can't use the excuse of it being a one-off error in judgement.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

On that basis I agree, although "one-off errors of judgement" can still lead to death.

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Yep which is why in comparison to other crimes the sentencing for drink/drug driving is so harsh.

Mandatory 12 month ban + fine. No soft-touches, probation or second chances there.

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But haven't there been cases where someone has moved their car forward a few feet so they're not blocking someone and they've been done for that?

Don't get me wrong, I'm against drink driving as it's totally irresponsible but shouldn't there be slight scope for discretion in cases like that?

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

how many drink drivers plead not guilty?

I do think its a good idea myself but I think repeat offenders should perhaps lose their car without provision though.

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There has been, and also times when they aren't in the car but still deemed to be in charge.

Not everyone gets charged in situations like that and there still can be exemptions. I know of one person who got 11 penalty points instead of a ban.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Ah right so there have been times when the police/CPS have not gone ahead with a prosecution? That's good I suppose but the reasons for it must be very stringent. Excuses such as "I felt fine" or "I only drove to the end of the street" or even "there was no-one else to drive the car" should never be accepted.

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

edit: hang on, not in the car but still be deemed in charge of it? How does that work?

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Most of them, till they get to court and realise the Police haven't made a mess of the paperwork and they are going to get banned. They then change their pleas to guilty and get the discount on sentencing for doing so.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Without getting too much into it there are still some times discretion is used. It is pretty rare, Drink driving is one of the things most cops go out of their way to do someone for.

You can be 'in charge' of a vehicle in a variety of ways. Say you are a cop on patrol in an isolated area and see a car parked up. You speak to the driver and he's stinking of drink but there is nothing in the car and no-one has seen him drive there.

You can't do him with drink driving so he is done with being drunk in charge.

Its also used for cases when someone is about to get in a car after leaving a pub, if they drive off and hit someone or get involved in a pursuit everyone would be lining up to have a go at the Police for letting them drive so when they get into the car with keys in hand they get lifted.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Wouldn't expect you to have given much away but if you guys go the extra mile for drink-drivers then good on you :tu:

Common sense then :D

Assuming the law with this is the same north of the border, say I've had a drink and am probably over the limit. I walk back to my car but I intend to sleep in there and not actually drive it. On another assumption that by the time I wake up I'm under the limit - what then? Would I get arrested for simply staggering back to my car with keys in hand?

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Probably unless you can prove you were not intending to drive.

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I would agree that habitual drink drivers should have the car seized & crushed. One off offence, no.

I would also go as far as to say that any habitual offender, tax, insurance, MoT, the car should be crushed.

We need to get tough on these people. They have no thought for others, & they do not care what laws they break.

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the way i see it is if someone can have their car crushed for unpaid road tax or no insurance,which does happen and the law considers a lesser crime than drink driving then why not crush the car ,i do accept that their might be reasons not to crush the car ,if for example the car is used by other members of the family

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Which would really be impossible to do and be accepted if you have the keys on you. if you were to say I was just going to sleep in it hofficer till the morning. you would still be in charge of the vehicle if you had the keys.

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There will be a lot of pedestrian Polish men then.....

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Its tough to prove but not impossible. I've seen someone get off on a drunk in charge prosecution after giving a laughable explanation that was accepted by the Sheriff.

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Getting drunk and driving your car is not an error of judgement. It is a premeditated act.

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Car siezed, yes but unless it's a right old banger it should be sold at a police auction rather than crushed

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Would it not be for the police and CPS to prove that they were intending to drive? What is the penalty of being drunk in charge?

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Who gets the money?

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Or if the car does not actually belong to them.

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Which is no easy thing to do! Just this year I was so worried about a guy driving a car, I reported him to the police. I gave them a description, his car reg and vague idea which road he may have parked in (quite near to where I live).

A drunk polish guy answered the door and immediately the police arrested him for suspicion of driving under the influence. They said my description of him was near perfect, even though it was dark.

To cut a long story short, the CPS aren't happy to take this guy to court as they feel the police can't prove it was him in the car (obviously my description counts for nothing). I've since had to do an ID parade to see if i could pick him out (not sure how that got on) and it seems the case won't even make it to court.

The reason why I phoned the police in the first place is because he cut across a junction almost taking out a set of lights and then mounted a kerb. I do wonder how some police officers remain motivated at work sometimes, its a thankless job :rolleyes:

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How do you know he was Polish and why was it relevant to your post?

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Thinking you are sober the morning after can be an error of judgement.

No all they need to do is prove you were in charge of the car.

In or near car - Check
Keys on person - Check

And thats pretty much that. It's up to the defendant to show he wasn't going to drive the vehicle.
The penalties are very close to actual drunk driving, normally a disqualification.

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So, if I am drunk and sitting in a pub garden/car park, I can be charged with "drunk in charge?" What is the mens rea?

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I know he was polish because the policeman told me. Why did you not comment on me saying it was a man? Why do you question everything??

Anyhows, it is quite relevant because after admitting that he had been driving drunk on the evening - he later changed his mind after speaking to his solicitor, and decided he hadn't understood what the officer was asking him.

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Yes you can. Ignorance isn't a valid defence.

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What is the probable cause? If I am sitting at home and had a couple of drams and I have my car keys in my trouser pocket, I can be done for being drunk in charge? Or is this just a n excuse for a police officer to exercise his powers, because he can?

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Probable cause doesn't come into it. The offence is set out clearly in the Road Traffic Act and in upteen different case laws since the 60's

If you are 'in charge' of the car and drunk you are committing an offence the same as if you drive about with fog lights on in clear conditions, park on zig zags at crossing, don't have water in your washer bottle, have a loose battery or any other road traffic offence.

In your example if you were in the house with your car keys in your pocket then its a jump to assume you'd be charged. If you were walking down the street towards the car with the keys in your hand then it's likely you'd be having a quick trip to the station.

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Whose onus is it to prove intent?

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The bit he's sitting on?

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I don't give a damn what anyone thinks, if you are drunk and YOU know you are and you get into a car, you deserve everything a court can throw at you, l have no sympathy for them if they get killed, l feel sorry for the people that get hurt in the process of the drunk driver.

We always hear of the do gooders who think they should get fined or banned from driving, IF you drive, you get the licence taken away for LIFE and you go to prison full stop. You sometimes you read where the person has been done before for the same offence, well if you take the licence away from the first time, they won't do it again.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

:confused:

Intent doesn't come into it. It's not like differentiating between murder/manslaughter.

Being drunk in charge of a vehicle is a crime. All the prosecution have to prove is

A: You were drunk
B: You were in charge of a vehicle

If you can persuade the Magistrate/Sheriff you were not intending to drive they can clear you of it but the prosecution don't have to prove you were planning to drive.

Virtually all traffic offences are the same, the Police don't have to prove you were knowingly driving with a light out but can still do you for it.

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I think that if you caught by the Police under the influence of Drink or Drugs then your car should be crushed as you have absolutely no excuse as to why this should not happen.

I also believe that you cannot use the excuse that another member of the family relies on that car for other reasons as that is the responsibility of the driver and if you allowed this card to be played then most people would use it, and what then is the to stop the person who was drunk from getting back into that car.

I also think that the same should apply to mobile phone use as the present system does nothing to stop people using them while driving, but if your car was to be crushed you may think again.

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This drunk in charge scenario is very interesting. If someone could answer my query it would be great.
I am a once a year drinker ( I dont know why I bother at all really) and Sunday last was my once a year drink.
It was the works staff party and I was working all day Sunday, I arrive home at 6pm and because I knew I was going to have a drink I arrange for my daughter to take me in her car. She`s picking me up at 7 so a quick shower and change.
I pick up my keys and off I go. Now my house keys are on my car keys, so where do I stand when I arrived back at 12ish walking back btw and walking past my car parked on the road outside my house up to my front door.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

I would imagine you would be standing at a funny angle, if at all. ;)

Seriously though, this clearly isn't the same as you coming out of a pub with your car keys and 'walking past' your car in the pub car park. If your car has been home all night and you have been out, you're hardly likely to be judged 'in charge of' the car just because you have to walk past it to get up your garden path.

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It still is a strange offence though. It does mean it would be ill-adviced to get something from your car when you're drunk and have no intention of driving it.

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What about Motocyclists? I know a family who had their 7 year old daughter killed by a drunk motocyclist. These should also be covered.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

I disagree with the part about if another member of the family uses it.
What if its a motobility car and the person that was driving wasnt their car and had taken it without the owners consent?

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The guy who I mentioned earlier on had the keys in his pocket and the engine was warm which was how the policeman arrested him, and then he admitted driving. I suppose it was a no-brainer really. But i have to say I didn't think he could be 'done' when he wasn't in the car, until this thread of course.

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But that's different. The car had clearly been driven, and the owner was in possession of the keys and drunk, so it's highly likely that an offence has taken place(of course they still have to prove it was him that drove the car). That's rather different from me getting something from the glove compartment whilst drunk, and then having to prove I didn't intend to drive the car. Even if I walk to my car in the pub car park, I could just be walking there to get my laptop before I hop into a cab home. It just seems strange to me that the onus is on the driver to prove he/she didn't intend to drive.

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But they don't have to prove the car was driven - that's what the offence of 'drunk in charge' is for. If they can prove that it was driven by him, then of course they could go for the full-blown drink driving ticket.

In court, it would still be for the prosecution to make a case, beyond reasonable doubt, that the man was 'in charge' of the car. They can't just get up in front of the judge and say 'he done it m'lud, and the Crown rests'. The burden of proof hasn't been turned on its head. But if the prosecution can do that, at that point the onus is on the defence to prove mitigating circumstances sufficient to avoid a guilty verdict.

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In the example above, there was witness testimony that the car had been driven. What wasn't (very) clear was if the car owner who was drunk was the one doing the driving.

That's not exactly what I read in Derek's posts:

I completely accept that a person found drunk behind the wheel of a car in the middle of nowhere can be deemed to have the intention of driving the car (even disregarding how he got there). But it seems to me that walking towards your car with the keys in hand is an altogether different case. There are a multitude of reasons why someone would want to get into the car without intending to drive it, so it would seem to me that the prosecution would have a rather weak case.

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Put it this way, WHATEVER vehicle you drive, wether it is a car, van,lorry, pushbike (yes) or mobility vehicle, if you are under the influence of booze, and have keys for that vehicle or you are riding a bike, that is a killing machine. and you can do some damage with.

And the the 'keys' but, IF you are seen with keys trying to get ionto the vehicle or just sitting in the vehicle, that is it.
Year after year we hear that people are being killed or maimed by some stupid birk, who thinks he can get away with it, tough, if you drive whilst drunk that is it.

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No one is disputing that. The issue is, why should the burden of proof be on the accused, rather than the prosecution. If I have had a few drinks and walk to my car boot to get my coat, before I get into the taxi, or even to walk home, it is grossly unfair for me to be charged and prosecuted for being drunk in charge, when I had no intention whatsoever to get in to the driver's seat and drive away.

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Why not because I think the loss of the vehicle would bring home the enormity of the offence.


Then they would be done for theft of a motor vehicle as well.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

I sorry but you talking carp.

If I go to a party to a place in the sticks and I am over the limit and unable to drive.

I have arranged for somebody to give me a lift home but they gone home and forgot me.

I'm standing by my car and its absoloutely chucking down, theres no one about and I cannot get a phone signal and it way to far to walk, I have three options:

1. Risk driving home (which I would never do.)

2. sleep on the back seat in the dry. (which according to you, I should have the book thrown at me.)

3. try and sleep on the floor in the heavy rain and risk drowning in the puddles.

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If I did that then I would put the keys somewhere outside away from the car as you can still be done for being in charge of a vehicle I believe and Derek should be able to verify one way or the other.

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Hi Homr, lets solve this problem, I WORK for the law, whilst you have the keys to your vehicle, you are in 'possession' of your vehicle, if for example a PC Plod comes along and especially in the 'sticks' as you call it, he has the grounds to check you out and finds you WITH the keys, he thens takes the matter further, and you end up blowing and you are over the limit, then your stuffed.

IF, you saw someone where you were drinking, and you asked them to opened your car, to sleep it off, then in the morning or after you wake, you would still be stuffed, as you will still have the alcohol in your urine and blood. Over the years l have seen more DD accidents then you have had hot dinners. Where l live in Richmond, several years we had a very nasty accident, where the guy turned his car over twice as he was driving so fast, he was that drunk, the hospital refused to allow the police to breath test him or take blood until he knew what was happening, he ended up killing two peopleand he had two broken legs, and got away with it, otherwise he would have been banned for life, and they said that in the papers.:(

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Lets not get all upset and assume cops will start charging people right, left and centre for daring to be within 100ft of their car when half-cut.

It is an option and is used every so often. It can be used if the keys are outside the car (what if the accused had them but chucked them away unseen by the cops?) when the keys are inside the car and whether the accused is inside or outside.

Basically if you are going out to get drunk it might be an idea to take your housekeys off the keyring and leave the carkeys at home. Either that or don't give plod any excuse for thinking you might be daring to drive home.

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Thanks for the clarification, it does not bother me either way as I do not drink alcohol as I do not like the taste, give me a soft drink every time.

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

nobody actually likes the taste -one acquires it ;)

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I have tried them and still prefer soft drinks.;)

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Arthur I didn't mean to offend. I've been in this situation, I drove there and we was gonna get a lift home, but I was left on my tod and very peed off.

Its just that now a days people want to go for a drink and have 101% no intention of driving, a cab is gonna cost, (I've been to places where from my house has cost £25 each way) so they book a cab home and drive there.

Later that night the cab has either

1. taken somebody else home thinking it you or closer to there home and there gonna call it a night.

2. refused to take you as you are drunk and might be sick in his car, and drives of.

3. not bothered to go to you location.

What are you suposed to do?

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

designated driver
http://www.cokezone.co.uk/home/asset...ed_drivers.jsp

Re: Drink drivers face car crushing
 

Hi Homr, you didn't, If l can help people l will, At this time of year public houses or the posh word the pub, quite often help customers by taking the keys off drivers.

I would urge, anyone going for a drink this christmas, and especially women, ONLY use registered cabs, and licenced ones, There are cabs that will only collect women, and they are the MOST vulnerable at this time of year, IF people want a drink, get a cab, and ask how much before you get one, and sometimes police station quite often have the phone numbers of cabs. have a great time everyone.:)

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I will never drink and drive, I have had to go to a party and not drink because I could not rely on any of my then so called mates to get me home.

But if you have been to a party at a club house outside of your town (it was upper clacton rugby club, near Epping) after the party I was waiting for a cab with a couple, the club owner locked up and went, after an half-hour we decided that the cab was a no show, so we had to walk home (this was before mobiles were affordable), it was 5 miles to the edge and another 4 to my home.

5 miles down the road (some 2 hours later) we found a phone box and manage to get a cab.

If I had a car there I would have slept in it.

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It should be this simple, you get caught driving a moving car/bike & blow positive,
1st time, loss of licence for 12 months & massive fine.
2nd time, bullet in the head, they'll never do it agan.

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judge dread has spoken;)

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I think the saddest thing about this whole matter, is that you will get 'chancers' and they are the people that l hate, are the businessmen from the centre of London, who will chance there luck, and pay with there life.

Last year l read in the media that the police pulled over some driver, and it the THIRD time he had done it,. The law in this country has to get tougher, And we had a celebrity who got done, and because he needed the car for his job, he gotbanned for 6 months and a hefty fine, and yet in the same court another driver got banned for three years, no matter who you are, it has to be take the licence away and jailed for 12 months without parole.

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Nah, Dredd would shoot em on the 1st offence;)

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After a considerable amount of thought I'd recommend taking a digital camera out with you and have great evening. Then find a nearby cctv (shouldn't take long). Pretend to take pictures and act suspiciously in full view of the camera.


Should get you a lift back to the city centre in a few minutes. :erm:

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This idea I like. :D