Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8376943.stm

I have no problem with getting across the message that domestic violence is unacceptable but I wonder just why we have yet another inititaive which entirely overlooks domestic violence against men? There's little doubt that men suffer less than women and are less likely to report violence against them, but whatever the proportion of males there are that fall into the category of being abused by their partners, why are their problems being overlooked and in what way would bringing their plight into the scope of the discussion compromise the safety or welfare of the women who also suffer?

Harriet Harman said:

Presumably the needs of the other half of the population aren't her or her useless government's concern then because I've yet to hear any of them acknowledge that the problem exists at all and all the available resources seem to be directed at women's refuges etc.....

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Harperson on her hobbyhorse again.

Hold your breath and let it pass. She's like a particularly awful fart, not pleasant to be around, but will be carried away on the wind soon enough.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Bad, bad idea.

Let's teach kids that are growing up in happy home that daddy has the capability of kicking mummys head in, and vice versa.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

There was a recent study that suggested that male victims of domestic abuse could equal that of females, but due to the lower likelihood of it getting reported the actual figures aren't known. It also suggested that while women were more likely to be victims of physical abuse, males were more likely to receive emotional abuse.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

There are huge and very dangerous double standards at work here and I wonder what the real agenda of these people is. When it comes to women's issues (dometic violence, rape, etc.) the presumption always seems to be that there is under-reporting and the problem is even worse than the official figures show and therefore all the more reason for more action, resources etc to tackle it. When it comes to men's issues, however, the presumption always seems to be that the official numbers reported are small and that the problem is therefore trivial. Under-reporting isn't considered let alone allowed for in any provision of services.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

A different perspective from the Beeb http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8377836.stm

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I've just emailed Jack Dromey to see if he can knock her into shape....a couple of back handers should do it. ;) :shocked:
:Sprint:

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Could this be deemed as "sexiest" towards a bloke? I find it highly offensive

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I'm glad its not just me harping on about this for a change.

Violence against men is around 1 in 3 depending on statistics. As with demoestic violence against women the true figure is much higher. When news articles like this come out people wonder why men aren't reporting domestic violence against them? Its already hard enough to get men to report abuse from people who are considered 'weaker' than they are.

It does remind me of the Family Guy episode where Brian goes to college.

It certainly echos the advice openly floating around my university when I went that basically all men are would-be rapists who'll eventually get rape a woman.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I don't think domestic violence could ever be described as being "sexy."

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

But that aside, I can't understand the objection to teaching all children that all violence, especially that which is committed in the home, is a bad thing. Surely the earlier this is taught the better.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I'd rather not my child be taught about this yet. I dont like the idea of her seeing Daddy havign the ability to kick mummys head in. When mummy has the same possibility. I dunno, it's swings and roundabouts in my mind. Seems, sexiest towards a bloke.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Schools are failing to teach kids reading, writing and mathematics. So rather than improve on those areas they've decided to teach something else poorly too.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Okay...where does it say that is what they are going to teach children?

As I said before, there is nothing "sexy" about it at all. I think you mean "sexist."

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

They are not "failing" to teach them anything. There is a whole raft of reasons why children can not read or write, it is not always the school's fault. To teach children to be better citizens is just as important as teaching the three "R"s

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

If you listen to Harman, she makes it sound like women are the only victims of domestic abuse. Her view is a very destructive one.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I think that is your own paranoia. Does she actually say that?

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Read the quote in the first post. She doesn't seem to be putting much effort in to pointing out that men are also the victims.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I read that thank you, but I can not see any problem with it. Don't you think that it should be a priority to reduce domestic violence?

The quote does not say that violence against men should be ignored, but as a further link pointed out, women are disproportionately victims of domestic violence. Are you sure that your objection to this isn't just because it is Harriet Harman who is saying this?

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Partially, I just don't like the woman. She should be making a statement about all domestic abuse being unacceptable, rather than concentrating on just one side of it. People like her giving more publicity to that one side will only serve to increase the incorrect belief that domestic violence against men is not taken seriously - a belief shown by a survey by Men's Health to be one of the main reasons male victims don't come forward.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

If anyone hasn't worked out why this won't work, i'll tell you.

Male domestic violence abusers broadly fit into two categories:

1. People that have uncontrollable rage. They know they shouldn't but once they are annoyed the red mist comes and lose control of their actions. Therefore telling them at 5 they shouldn't do it wouldn't be any use.

2. People that are just evil. They know they shouldn't do it but there brains are such badly-wired they don't care. Telling them at 5 they shouldn't do it wouldn't be of any use.

As for women, they know they shouldn't put up with domestic violence. They also know there are many organisations (of which many are female-specific) that can help. However the reasons they don't are often practicality such as kids, opportunity to get or emotional issues such as love or if they have been in long enough, they have become dependent on their abuser.

There has been several campaigns over the last couple of decades to get women to be more proactive in highlighting and fighting abuse. Reporting has risen dramatically and now almost plateaued. There are many domestic violence laws that have been enacted.

The cynic in me thinks this is just postering to appease the pink vote.

If anyone actually does care about domestic violence then its violence against males and LGBT that truly need help. Both are dramatically underreported and lacking in organisations to help.

One issue that particularly gauls me about domestic violence against men is that its considered funny or normal. i.e. A man asking a girl out getting a slap. Imagine the same happening in reverse? Its social attitudes like this which are causing women to believe they have the right to abuse men.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

The singer Pink? In her videos she's often beating men up, same for the Sugababes - I don't hear Harman or her lot speaking out about that.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Basically we agree her quote should have said this instead:

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Yes, excellently put :clap:

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I think it's different in those cases. It's not implying beating men up is ok but rather breaking with the perceived norm (i.e Men are stronger than Women) to show empowerment. You'll find the men in those cases are probably strong, imposing figures. It would be more worrying if the men were in a corner sheltering while they attack them with bats or something. It's often shown in a more fun/sexual way..

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

In one of the Sugababes' videos, I think it's "Freak Like Me" it shows them beating up men in nightclubs. Is that the right way to show female empowerment?

Would it be morally right if a henpecked man or a guy who was the victim of abuse was depicted as punching a woman's lights out? If you're trying to imply that in these cases 2 wrongs make a right then I'd be surprised and a little disappointed.

There are other ways to represent female empowerment and violence is NOT one of them.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

No. What I am suggesting is that the reason why it's objected to is not because it's Men beating up Women or Women beating up Men but that's it's the Strong beating up the Weak. The reason why it mostly manifests as Men beating up Women is because historically and cultural we perceive men as stronger than women.

In this videos the Men are strong, and the empowerment idea is that counter to the idea that Women are weak they are actually strong. The sides are matched, it's not the strong beating on the weak. These videos use a rather obvious way of expressing that

Really, it's not different to men vs men fights and so on. Look at movies/TV shows. It is much less offensive if a man and women are fighting if they are equally matched (James Bond films are an example). Of course in real life any form of violence is offensive.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Do you agree that showing women beating up men in these videos is the wrong way to represent female empowerment?

And do you agree it might encourage their more impressionable fans to think it's acceptable for women to hit men?

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I am not sure if it's the correct way to show it, I honestly don't have an answer to that since I think female empowerment is not about physical attributes but should be about equal rights. However that is not a popular topic for music videos and not as visually dramatic. I certainly do not think it encourages domestic abuse.

I don't agree it makes a culture of it being acceptable to hit men anymore than the fights between James Bond and that women in Goldeneye encourages violence against women. The difference is if one side is portrayed to be a victim, and weak, while the other is dominant and strong. Even then it might be artistically justified if the actions are shown to be evil and not to be emulated (i.e domestic abuse storylines in dramas).

If in the video the men were shown to be victims and weak, then they hit them, and it glorified it, then yes I would object to that.

If they are shown be equal and fighting then it's no different in any other form of violence in the media. I think we are smart enough to separate reality from fiction.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

On the assumption that you'd agree that a pop video showing men beating up women would cause outrage, can you see why there's a general feeling of one-sidedness in this?

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Yes, That one sided, but that's because of a cultural perception. However what you said what be objectionable if the women was portrayed as a victim and it was glorified. If they were righting and it was equal it wouldn't be outrageous.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

The thing is there are some very reactionary people in the world (there's a few of them on CF) in which any mention of male-on-female violence is considered an outrage regardless of the circumstances but are noticeably silent when it's the reverse situation. Any objections to the status quo is considered to be a sympathetic vote for the violent male.

I won't ever deny that male on female domestic abuse is a major problem (my OH was in an abusive relationship for 10 years) but the way it is fronted in the media today you'd be forgiven for thinking it simply does not happen the other way around. Mention 'domestic abuse' to anyone and I'm sure the vast majority would think of the woman as the victim.

The media is happy with a "stupid male/smart woman" combination. If they think that's the way to redress the balance then it's a BIG mistake. Making women strong by physically fighting back against men makes them as worse as the violent men they are against.

Some interesting reading at http://physical-abuse.suite101.com/a...estic_violence

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

As usual for Harman and this government, the quote ignores any mention of violence against men and if nothing else therefore trivialises the issue and makes it even harder for those male victims of it. If the idea here was an even handed stance against abuse, which would be a very worthy cause, then it's clearly a poor attempt. If the intention of HMG is to acknowledge that men are also vicitms of abuse show me some evidence and tangible measures they've implemented which recognise that fact and provides resources for men in that situation. Why should the fact that women represent the largest group of victms of DA preclude any other group from a the same level of acknowledgement, protection and services? It strikes me as highly ironic that a government which has show itself to be so fixated by minorities and equality that they can at the same time be so prejudiced against a particular minority group - abused men.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Yes. I was careful to make it clear in my post that I obviously am not sympathetic to the perpetrators of such violence for that reason. Just that as long as the sides are equal, then it's no worse than any other type of violence in the media. You hit someone in real life, it's shouldn't matter the sex. Obviously in a relationship it's even worse because there is a sense of being trapped there. Real life Violence = Never Justified.

I don't think it's 'dressing the balance' but it is a popular theme to have strong women beating up (equally) strong men and I don't really have a problem with that anymore than men beating up men.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Should schools deal with this? I don't know to be honest I do know I went through it and some how made it out the other side, I also know that it can not be one sided as men sadly do get abused by women and need help also.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

*sigh* more political correctness.

No wonder so many pupils these days have no qualifications, more and more of the school week is wasted on useless lessons like this instead of the basic requirements (reading, maths etc).

How about spending the £13 million or more on repairing the schools that are falling to bits.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Here are some figures pertaining to male victims of domestic violence:

http://www.mankind.org.uk/PDFs/Key%2...2009_final.pdf

Clearly the official figures show it to be far from a trivial matter and the numbers are on the increase. When you factor in the amount of official effort directed at encouraging women to report abuse and the abject lack of any camparable effort directed at male victims, I'd say the likelihood is that under-reporting by males far exceeds that by females. Of course, you wouldn't get that impression from anything Harman and this pathetic excuse for a government says or does.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Oh that's me told.....

I know of plenty of schools in the London area where kids as old as 8 are getting 1 hour homework a week, and not knowing how to read or write properly.

I know what I'd prefer my 5 year old being taught, and its certainly not issues relating domestic violence. Why not teach them that its wrong to abuse people fullstop, instead of focussing on one area.

My sentiments exactly. The time could be better spent teaching that age group something more useful.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

8 isn't old. They spend quite a bit of time at school I don't think it fair to bombard them with more work when they get home. For another topic I guess though.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

1hr a week??!!! That's not bombarding them. Anyway you're right, thats another thread.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I would not of wanted my little loves to be educated about domestic violence at school at this tender age. Way too young in my opinion.
Possibly at the senior school age would be more appropiate, when they have more of a mind to understand about all of this.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

First of all, one hour of homework a week is typical for an eight year old and is not confined to inner city schools. Having just one hour of homework has no bearing on a child's ability to read or write. Flyboy8 has only one hour a week and reads very well. But as has been suggested, children's ability to read and write and the causes thereof, are for different thread.

How do you imagine these subjects will be addressed for a five year old? Do you think they will be showed videos of local A+E departments full of women covered in blood and bruises, or of men wielding pick axe handles over cowering women?

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:13 ----------

As speaks someone who has very little idea of how a school timetable works.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

When I heard this on the radio I thought exactly the same. Her comments are sexist, god know what she would say if someone from the opposing party said they wanted all kids to be taught that violence by women against men is ....... Well you get the gist.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I know how a school timetable works and I frequently find myself in Paul's frame of mind as to why some children are forced to learn say French or Spanish when their basic English skills are so weak.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Totally agree with that punky, well put.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

http://newsarse.com/2009/11/25/child...-hitting-women

:rofl:

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

you really are a Nu Labour zealot,aren't you?? :mad:

Keep the government out of my and my families life,thank very much! I am a responsible citizen,and I am so through my own will and ability! :)

There's no need for the gov to tell me what to eat,drink,ingest,think,feel or whatever.
Domestic violence is abhorrent,that's a no-brainer,and it's up to the families and individuals to live by that maxim.
No wonder we live in a culture of no responsibilty,'let the government run my life for me'!! :mad:

Flyboy,I suggest you move to a communist/stalinist country,there you can have the gov run your life for you to your hearts content.;)

PLEASE LEAVE ME AND MY FREEDOMS ALONE :mad::mad::mad:

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

I think you need to stop assuming people have no idea of what they are talking about when you don't agree with what you say.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

But that still doesn't mean that children should not be taught that violence is wrong. I am sure that you will agree that the amount of homework, or the lack of it, is not the reason why some children can't read or write. I can agree that there are some oddities in some schools' timetables, but they are not the majority of schools. Flyboy10 has to learn French, but he suffers from a language disorder, he gets speech and language therapy at school and tries his best at French, not because he has to, but because he finds it fascinating and it is a change from all the input he gets from English literacy. His reading age is six years and nine months and his spelling age is a bit lower, but this is nothing at all to do with the way the school manage their curriculum, or how much homework he gets.

---------- Post added at 00:24 ---------- Previous post was at 00:17 ----------

But there clearly is a need for children to be taught these things, because they are not getting taught about them anywhere else.

It makes me laugh when I hear "nanny state," or "it's my job to teach my children these things," when it is obvious that there is a need, because otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a rise on male-on-female violence. Just this week a study revealed an increase in young teenage girls being victims of physical abuse, from their male partners. How do you propose we should tackle such things? What suggestions can you come up with, that will solve this problem?

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Did I imply at any point that children AREN'T taught that violence is wrong.

It's already part of the secondary school ethos that this is the case..Anyone using violence against another will be severely punished usually by internal detention,suspension,exclusion and in the case of the persistent, permanent exclusion.

Can't see how that is not a clear indication to the entire school population that violence is not acceptable already.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Sorry Maggy, after reading what I have written, I do believe you are right. I suppose what I meant to convey was that we shouldn't not ignore that this particular form of violence is singularly abhorrent. It needs to be made as socially unacceptable as other forms of abuse. When I was a kid, we had a mantra,"you don't hit a girl." Perhaps, it should be added that a girl should not hit a boy, but I really do believe that is a subject for another time. What I can't understand is people's attitudes that this advice and proposed teaching, should be ignored, because at the moment it doesn't included female-on-male domestic violence.

Re: Domestic violence on the school curriculum?
 

Well just for the record I don't think any form of domestic violence should be ignored/trivialised but if that isn't what current government policy is doing, with respect to all the male victims of abuse, I'd like to see some evidence to the contrary. I can't recall a single significant government initiative aimed at assisting males who've been abused.