Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914593)

Definitely. I'd happily vote for an independent Scotland just to get rid of Brown and his cronies.

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze (Post 34914668)

I, and quite a few other in Norn Iron still prefer to be part of the Union thanks very much. :angel:

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34914733)

Complete independance for all, stop giving Englands money to them and stop overseas aid while we are at it till we get ourselves sorted out financially.....

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34914733)

Complete independance for all, stop giving Englands money to them and stop overseas aid while we are at it till we get ourselves sorted out financially.....

Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34914736)

Question for you.

What part of the UK gets the most money per person?

I'll even give you a clue, it isn't Scotland.

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34914744)

Did he say Scotland in his post?

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34914750)

If the SNP thought they could win a referendum then they would call it. Cowards pretending that their recent successes where because of a desire for a Independent Scotland when it wasn't.

Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34914752)

Erm they do want to. They don't however have a majority in Holyrood and would need the backing of other parties who have told them to sling their hooks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8336726.stm

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34914753)

Opps :dunce:

Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34914651)

You do know by doing that he'd still be in charge down there and we'd be rid of him. :D

Devolved powers to the regions - Yes.
Complete independance - No.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 34914773)

Would be a solution to the West Lothian Question

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914774)

That's conjecture. English MPs DO have a say in what happens in Wales.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914774)

That's conjecture. English MPs DO have a say in what happens in Wales.

Originally Posted by Derek S

Thats because Wales is just another county of England.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914778)

I think the point being made is that these MP's can still have influence on certain matters in England which their English counterparts don't now have with respect to the rest of the UK.

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34914733)

Complete independance for all, stop giving Englands money to them and stop overseas aid while we are at it till we get ourselves sorted out financially.....

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914780)

Do you actually understand the rights and powers of the Welsh Assembly? They're little more than a town council. Your MPs still have a say in the majority of Welsh affairs.

Originally Posted by stewart28 (Post 34914783)

where do you think your oil comes from.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34914790)

It comes from a part of the North Sea that is the sovereign territory of the United Kingdom. The international conventions that govern territorial waters, rights over the continental shelf and establishment of national maritime boundaries have all come into existence relatively recently, and none of them existed before the UK did.

'Scotland's oil' is just nationalist propaganda.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914789)

Yes I do thanks. I didn't claim that, in the case of Wales, the difference in powers is enormous (or on the scale of what applies in Scotland), just that there is a difference in powers and that's what the poster was referring to.

Originally Posted by LondonRoad (Post 34914743)

Statements like that do more for the nationalist cause than Alex Salmond ever could :erm:

Originally Posted by stewart28 (Post 34914783)

its us who give you the money!!!

where do you think your oil comes from.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914791)

So it's the "UK's oil" as opposed to England's or Scotland's?

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914791)

So it's the "UK's oil" as opposed to England's or Scotland's?

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------



It doesn't make sense though. The suggestion that Welsh MPs in Westminster can influence English affairs while the reverse cannot happen is totally false.

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze (Post 34914804)

So wanting to get shot of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland my suit your Little Englander tendencies Ramrod. But in truth is highly unlikely to be practical.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914799)

Yes and I didn't make that suggestion. :confused: I merely made the point (as was, I believe, the OP) that in those areas of law, policy etc. where the 'regions' have devolved powers, English MP's don't have the right to affect those decisions.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914807)

You're still not getting it :D

The Welsh Assembly has very little 'power' to change things in Wales. All major decisions about what happens here is still made in Westminster.I admire your apparent willingness to afford the WA all these powers and rights but seriously, very few exist.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34914819)

Didn't they pass the Regulation of Male Voice Choirs Act 2008? Coupled with the Tom Jones (Exemption) (Wales) Order 2009?

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34914797)

However, claiming that future oil revenue would prop up a Scottish state is one thing, what the Nationalists are doing is going a step further and whingeing "It's Scotland's Oil!" as if the rotten English have somehow stolen it. This is an outright falsehood, but they use it because they believe it serves their purpose in whipping up nationalist sentiment.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34914812)

It's only a few idiots that want to break the union up most of us like the union and are happy to keep it but a vote would be good if only to put the issue to rest once and for all. Personally i cannot stand the snp and their pathetic nationalist claptrap and alex salmond has a face you would never tire of slapping. Together we benefit each other in so many ways apart we would all be weaker in everyway doesn't seem like a good idea to break us all up.

Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze (Post 34914804)

So wanting to get shot of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland my suit your Little Englander tendencies Ramrod. But in truth is highly unlikely to be practical.

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34914826)

You forgot the other fib/distortion. The way that when assessing the value of the North Sea reserves to Scotland the nationalist types tend to use 100% of the estimated value of it, forgetting that those private companies that drill it may be somewhat reluctant to pay 100% tax on it.

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34914832)

I just think that if countries don't want to be part of the UK they should be allowed to leave :)

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34914836)

That's not an unreasonable thought - however it does look as if you're assessing what the whole country 'wants' based on the febrile rantings of a few zealots.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 34914857)

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 34914857)

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34914860)

Was that your 2 Euro cents worth Pierre? ;)

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 34914857)

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 34914857)

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914816)

Tell me which powers you think the WA has.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914878)

The powers of the WA are set out here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060032_en_1

and

http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-hom...n-guidance.htm

Amonst many other places.

I think I've made the rest of my point as clear as I can several times now so I won't bother doing so again. Personally I don't care what powers Wales has or whether the WA cares to use those powers which have been devolved to them.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914883)

Ok and the killer fact? Every decision the WA makes has to be agreed to by Westminster, it's called "legislative competence".

Originally Posted by EBD3000 (Post 34914891)

I don't think the union should be split up. We're all stronger together. We all punch above our weights in international manners.

They'd be a few other problems than have already been discussed -

1) Each of the new countries would have to renegotiate all of the UK's treaties with the EU. Although likely entry into the EU might not be automatic.
2) Each of the new countries would have to renegotiate all the UK's treaties with all the other countries in the world.

The treaties wouldn't just automatically move over to the new independent countries = expensive.

3) Would the Scottish government really want to rely on the taxes of the revenue of a depleting resource (oil & gas) which will lower over time.
4) Scotland, Wales and NI would lose influence in the UN by not have a permanent seat in the security council. England may retain it but might not.
5) England may stay in the G8 but Scotland, Wales and NI wouldn't be so would lose the ability to discuss issues with the major players on an even(ish) standing.

On a positive note Gordon brown could not be the English PM as his constituency is in Scotland. :p: However it’s a price too high.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914894)

The UK government is made up of Welsh, Scottish, English and N Irish MPs...

If they wanted to be stubborn, the English MPs could prevent any of the WA's proposals. Highly unlikely to ever happen but it shows the fallacy in the idea that Welsh MPs have a say in England but English minister don't have input in to Wales.

Originally Posted by The Scotsman, 8 January 2007

THE SNP's case for independence was dealt a damaging blow last night when the European Commission and senior academics challenged the Nationalists' core assumption - that an independent Scotland would automatically become a member of the European Union. The EC stressed that Scotland's entry as a member state would have to be "negotiated" and would not be the "seamless" transition the SNP has claimed.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914900)

Now you're digressing from the original point. The only way English MP's could force change on the WA would be for them to force a change in Government policy and the relevant law pertaining to the WA.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34914897)

What you're describing would only happen if the Union were to be completely dissolved all at once. If any part of the current UK ever breaks off - and I don't think that's nearly as likely as some nationalists want us to think - then it would be for the breakaway part to renegotiate treaties, apply to join the EU, etc etc. The UK, meanwhile, would continue to exist, complete with membership of the EU, seat at the UNSC, etc.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914905)

Force a change? All they have to do is raise objections to whatever the WA is asking for.

Originally Posted by EBD3000 (Post 34914908)

True, I was just stating the worst case scenario. It'd still be true for the individual country that left the union.

Anyway I thinks its a moot point as Scotland is likely to be still part of the union in 100 years.

Let the SNP have its referendum so the topic can be put to bed either way.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34914913)

It's tempting to just say 'have the referendum and get it over with,' but there are very good reasons not to do it. First of all, the Scottish people know there are only 2 or 3 parties in the country that advocate breaking away from the Union, and they have absolute discretion to support any one of them at the ballot box. Separatist parties have never got anywhere near an outright majority in Scotland, so (despite the loud noise the SNP makes) there is no case for a formal national debate about separation.

Second, referendums cost money - money that can be better spent on other things. This is always the case but especially right now. It would be a pointless waste of scarce public resources.

Third, it wouldn't put the issue to bed. It would simply kick it into the long grass for perhaps 10 years. You can bet the SNP isn't going to pull up the stumps and walk away if they don't get the answer they want. They will simply review their strategy, seek to change people's minds and after a while start agitating for another referendum, looking for any spurious reason they can find that demonstrates things have substantially changed and therefore we can no longer rely on the X-year-old results of the last referendum. This would be guaranteed to go on, ad infinitum. It is a well-attested fact, all over the world, that when someone sponsors a referendum, then doesn't get the result they want, where they have the opportunity they simply keep repeating the referendum until they do get the result they want. c.f. Ireland's recent experiences in the EU.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 34914909)

Yes, they'd have to force a change from current policy. You seen unwilling or unable to differentiate between the ultimate control of the WA which does emanate from the Westminster Government and Parliament (made up of MPs of all UK nationalities) and the power of English MPs to vote on Welsh matters on a day to day basis. The fact remains that on those matters currently devolved to the WA, English MPs as a group have no right to vote directly.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34914966)

I understand it enough. The process may be different but if they wanted to, non-Welsh MPs could if they wanted to disrupt the proposals of the WA.

Originally Posted by broadbandking (Post 34915168)

From the hate I have seen from Welsh, Scotland towards English (and I am not saying it doesn't happen vice versa, because it does) I personally couldn't care if we was to part, I am English I live in England so don't really care if we are a union because we don't seem like it.

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34915075)

Perhaps we could pick one of the Scottish isles and let the SNP devolve that and live on it..;)

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34915183)

There's very little hate towards the English from us. There's a rivalry (see bottom link in sig) but certainly hardly any actual 'hate'.

Originally Posted by LondonRoad (Post 34915196)

It's probably smaller nation/support underdog complex for a lot of nations but in the UK I think it has a lot to do with the biased Press coverage. I know it's a bit of a running joke but it happens all the time.

Originally Posted by Broadbandings (Post 34914581)

Just wondering, with all the stuff about Scotland having certain powers that for example England doesn't, and the SNP apparently wanting a referendum on it, should Scotland devolve entirely from the UK?

For that matter should Wales?

Northern Ireland?

Should England go it alone?

Just curious what people from all parts of the UK think both of Scotland going its' own way and possibly things going further. Would Scotland benefit from it, would any of the other home nations benefit?

Originally Posted by broadbandking (Post 34915246)

@London Road - are you saying if England are in a competive competion you wouldn't support them?

Originally Posted by broadbandking (Post 34915246)

@London Road - are you saying if England are in a competive competion you wouldn't support them?

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34915272)

I differ from Dezza and LR on that - if Scotland are playing England (at whatever sport we are best at losing at at the time), I will support Scotland; if England are playing someone else, I will support England.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 34915277)

However if the press just act normal and remember there are other nations in the UK then I'll probably be in favour of England.

Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34915288)

Say Liverpool got to a European final (stop laughing, it might happen again) and were playing against a non-british team. Who would you support then?

Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34915288)

The way I look at it I don't support England as they are Scotlands greatest rivals, not because of some deep seated hatred of the English.

Originally Posted by Nidge (Post 34915226)

IMO it's Brown and Darlings dream to run the whole shooting match from Scotland.

Originally Posted by Nidge (Post 34915226)

IMO it's Brown and Darlings dream to run the whole shooting match from Scotland.