Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

They won't allow you to send or receive zipped password protected attachments. if they can't see what's in them. they're going in the bin :)


http://www.virginmedia.com/help/virg...ments.php#6584

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Not unusual.

I wonder if they can detect winrar files.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Totally out of order, IMO. What business have VM looking at the content of zipped files?

...and yes, I know MS e-mail clients do similar blocking by default, BUT a) that can be switched off and b) that blocking is done by s/w at the client end - no snooping on the way.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Not being allowed to password protect a zip file is usual?
I know Gmail don't allow you to send various extensions, but I don't think they say you can't password protect a zip.

---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 ----------

This is unclear. are they saying if it has no extension it will get blocked? they don't know if it's an executable or a jpg if it doesn't have an extension

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I just change the file extension and tell the other person to change it back.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

As Paul says not unusual at all, if their anti-spam/AV can't scan it then they reject it..

It's nothing about cataloging what's in the zip but purely a safety issue for the majority of thier customers..

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

But passwording a zip file can be used as a security measure on the 'customers and recipiants' side. by Virgin doing this they are forcing you to have no security.
there is no option to turn it off, and we don't actually know nothing's not being catalogued. we just think and hope it's not.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

If you're that worried then you have a simple choice of getting an email system elsewhere, or get your own domain and host your own email addresses..

It's VM's servers and VM's rules that you agreed to when you signed up

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Well how can it be a spying/nanny state if you have a choice? It's not as if every ISP has the same rules which is purely to do with malware scans ;)

Time for the usual link I think!!!

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Just because you have a choice to use another email sevice, it doesn't mean that the one you moved from wasn't spying or them playing nanny.

they even block a zip within a zip. and applies to SMTP mail too.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Is this not the google hosted email via VM and so google's policy really?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

No it's VM's policy. VM has added more extensions to block than what Google does.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Considering the blocked extension list is a copy/paste of the google help page (with a VM added verbose list) I'd say it's likely it is google's policy. Just because google don't explicitly list the extensions doesn't mean they don't block them.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

VM have compared their policy to googles as a seperate thing.
the same VM policy applies to SMTP too.
Googles policy on passworded zips is If the attachment is encrypted and does not contain another zipped attachment, then it can be sent and received.

VM are saying that they can't be passworded at all.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Someone over on the VM newsgroups has tested this with googlemail and identified 15 file types which are blocked by VM but NOT by Google.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

So Virginmedia inline with Google and probably many other email providers do not allow yo to send encrypted mail via their servers.

If that is the case and you need to send mails in this way do as other people have said and purchase your own domain.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

:clap:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

and when they make the service really unuseable with restrictions. remember you can always change providings. simples! :D

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I have no issues with my @blueyonder.co.uk account and it is most certainly not unusable and I send and receive mail every single day.

This thread is a non event and if you choose to use Virginmedia's email system you have to abide by the rules, if you use another companies email service and they have similar restrictions then you also have to abide by their rules.

If you feel that these restrictions are unjust and intrusive then your time would be better served searching out an email provider that does not have restrictions and then post that link for the people on here to check out for themselves.

You never know if you find the right provider and people think it is good then you will find yourself being repped by grateful fellow posters.

Here is one you could try as it has 5Gb mailboxes and the ability to send 50Mb attachments and they do not scan your email for advertising purposes.

http://gmx.com/

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

These restrictions (rules) weren't there before when we were using it from the start.

We used this one and it never had them restrictions until now.

www.googlemail.com

I don't do it for the rep. but it is appreciated :)

---------- Post added at 13:25 ---------- Previous post was at 13:24 ----------

Does VM? :confused:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Do really think that this has not been the case since day one or just because you became aware of it after reading it on the Newsgroups.

This it what it says on the GMX website about privacy
http://gmx.com/

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

:confused:
anyway, One of the biggest problems with these new rules are if we can't see what's in the zip, it won't get through.
you have to ask if that's for security reasons, or snooping reasons. if it has no extension it get's blocked. at the other end it's unuseable unless the correct extension is added to the file manually. so until you do that then it's not dangerous is it.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Yeah, its for snooping reasons Gary, VM have decided they have nothing better to do than look at everyones zip files. :rolleyes:

If it bothers you that much, compress them using something else.

As for snooping - you do realise that e-mail is plain text ? I take it you dont mind them reading all of that with the same AV scanner ......

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Isn't this precisely why people choose to password-protect or encrypt sensitive files? Because e-mail is not in itself a secure means of communication?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

http://mail.google.com/support/bin/a...en&answer=9481

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

...see point 3) Ben.

"If the attachment is encrypted and does not contain another zipped attachment, then it can be sent and received."

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

And lets not forget

The same old same old.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

While we're at it

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11...vernment_plot/

Seriously though, many companies are always pointing out that e-mail is an insecure means of communication and any sensitive information SHOULD be encrypted.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

All it comes down to in the end is if you do not like how a company handles your email then take your emails elsewhere as nothing is going to alter the fact that Virgin disallow encrypted emails to be sent.

No amount of posting on here will ever change that regardless of how hard done by you feel.

You do also realise that no one actually physically reads your email unless it is flagged up as spam or a security issue.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I don't think it's for the reason of them being bored, Paul.

An encrypted rar with an enclosed non extension file has gotten through.

I can't say I do as I don't use VM mail anyway.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:





I think that says it all about this thread.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I didn't know anyone at VM physically reads your emails for any reason, but I do now.

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

What's wrong with that? do you have to be a murderer to be able to have an opinion of its rights and wrongs?

---------- Post added at 14:10 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------

Marker.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Sorry, you're way off there Moldova.

There is no way VM checks every outbound email going through its network, sets aside spam/security breach emails then passes them to a person to read.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

If it is flagged up that your email account is sending multiple mails out in a scattergun approach it is flagged up and then Security/Abuse will freeze your email account and possibly disable your broadband connection, at which point you will call in and ask what is going on.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

You obviously don't have a very high opinion of your employers if you don't think they take any notice of their customers. If that was true, we'd now be Phormed, and/or there would be no update to the VM privacy policy to explain Audience Science and give the option to opt out. They may not pay ENOUGH attention to what their customers say, but they do sometimes listen. Probably why we have some HD channels as well.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

The sheer volume of it counts against it. Where abuse has been reported (through this site
) or otherwise, Virgin can (and do, like any other ISP) look into a situation, but it's not that common. What you'll tend to see is accounts flagged for sending a large number of outgoing, usually spam, with a wee note to say "get this person to contact the abuse team" on the account. While Virgin have the capacity to look at outgoing email, they don't. It just isn't worth it. Abuse reports are almost invariably predicated on emails that have already been sent, at which point they're outwith your control anyway, even if you sent them consciously rather than because your machine was hijacked. I think that might be what Moldova meant, it's just the framing got confused

So before anyone else gets paranoid, Virgin have the capacity to look at outgoing email, but don't. They'll look at email that has been sent through their network if it's flagged as abusive or similar, but that's quite distinct.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Email with VM isn't a free service. so for them to be filtering our emails in this way could well lead to legal action for blocking emails. more so the ones coming in.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

So, you don't use VM mail. Why are you bothered then?

As for the restriction, are you aware that malware authors now send out encrypted zips with the password in the email? Some of these are quite official and convincing looking as well. There is no other purpose for doing this.

You also suggest people use a service that is *known* to scan people's email for advertising purposes and *rumoured* to use it for other, less customer friendly , purposes as well?

I, for one, applaud Virgin in this because it will hopefully stop a lot of virus infections.

If you are going to blame anyone for doing this, blame Malware authors. If they didn't encrypt their attachments with passwords, then send out millions of them, then companies like VM wouldn't need to block encrypted zips.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Because I can be.

VM are telling 'us' that we can't send them passworded. and are telling us that we can't receive them. whether malware authors distribute them in this fashion or not is irrelevant. because they are telling us that 'we' can't send them.

You can blame something on something, and then something more. until one of them somethings are the accepted reason to why something came in force.

If they are to blame for why they have to be blocked, then they are being nanny. they should give you the option to not have your hand held for you. and let you be grown up and over the age of 18 where it's assumed that you might not be a child.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Wrong again Gary as all email services provided by Virginmedia are a free service provided only for customers on a residential service and therefore you have to agree to the terms and conditions for use, so no chance of anyone taking legal action.;)

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

The router is free too. until you go to court and then 'The equipment remains property of Virgin Media' ;)

and the terms and conditions of the email service have changed from what they were when you originally agreed.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

The router at all times remains the property of Virginmedia that is why we offer full technical support.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

So it's only technically free then. you offer full technical support for the email too.

The modem is free too (and there's no conditions where it says that it remains the property of Virgin) it says on this page.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/webs...uct.do?id=3264

what I'm saying is, is that just because they say the email is free. it doesn't mean it is when it's seen as part of a package. otherwise you could state everything was free.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

No only for supported email clients and webmail which again is in the terms and conditions.

Remember I work for them so I am much more likely to know what is actually supported and not supported by Virginmedia.

Please read the terms and conditions about Virginmedia products before posting about them.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

but you were implying that if it were free you wouldn't offer full technical support? otherwise you wouldn't need to make that point? :confused:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Moldova, I refer you to this post sir.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I know, I know, I should stop but I was bored.:p::p::p:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

We all saw your 'Troll Song' already.

I like this song :)

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Through their SMTP servers. There's nothing that stops you from sending them through your Virgin Media connection by other means. They're not doing content scanning on port 25 here, just examining headers submitted through their own equipment. As is their right, as it's their equipment. You do understand this, yes? It is their ball.

I am having trouble parsing this, but I think that what you are saying is that Virgin's efforts to slow the spread of spam or viruses constitutes 'nanny' behaviour. Which is perhaps the case, in that they are making an effort to protect some of their users, and, indeed, other internet users who are not directly their customers. It is the case, it seems, that Virgin are applying stricter rules than other email providers. What of it? There are other email providers.

Just because one person is King Awesome of Email Town and can happily and safely send executables or password protected compressed files does not mean that everyone can do so, nor, indeed, that it's a good idea. As with most commercial or technical decisions, the issue is not about picking the 'best' course of action (which here would seem to be one where you were given totally unrestricted access) but the least worst. That's the nature of things like email provision, where it'll tend to be one size fits all. If that size doesn't fit you, or you chafe at its restrictive collar, then going elsewhere would seem the best course of action. Do not even think, by the way, of applying the "things have changed" defense - Virgin's customers are offered an internet connection, and as an inducement on top of that email services are offered. Email does not appear as a line item on the bill, nor is a requirement of the provision of services. Indeed, other than the AUP, email isn't a 'product' that Virgin Media supply, just something made available.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

It means as well as protecting some users, they are not protecting some others. their email will no longer be able to be sent or received as secure as it was or should be by not being able to 'lock' it from others.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

It's not. The reason that they are blocking sending as well is that the Malware authors don't use nice, centralised servers to send the emails. If they did, they would be easy to control. No, they use the computers of hundreds, if not thousands of innocent people hosted on ISPs such as Virgin.

So, if a major ISP blocks them, then it *will* have an impact on malware being sent, as such malware is relevant.

Children aren't the only ones affected.. They also aren't the only ones that need protection.

I object to Phorm partly it is difficult to avoid with any certainty for a lot of people as many people are stuck with Virgin (for whatever reason) if they want high speed broadbanda and even with the opt out cookie, it is difficult to check that your data is not going through Phorm's servers.

With Email it's different. VM don't offer anything on their email service that is not offered by thousands of other providers. While it is inconveniant to change email providers it *is* possible for every email user.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

There are other ways to protect information sent by email other than by password protecting compressed files. Indeed, there are many ways to protect information, and I would suggest that when you are using a consumer ISP's email servers you are already failing to operate at the most secure level. Most people don't encrypt email, never mind password protect their attachments. Those processes are often abused, and Virgin have decided that the security risk to other internet users from their servers being used in such a way is greater than the security benefit to a proportion of their users from allowing them to be used in that way. Again, there are other ways to securely transmit information, and I will be honest, "password protected" email attachments is not one of them.

You're going to keep going round in circles here. This is one of those issues like wearing seatbelts or speeding - there is no point in denying that in some accidents not wearing a seatbelt is beneficial, or that in some cases it is safe (or indeed safer) to go above the statute speed limit. However, in the vast, indeed, overwhelming majority of cases it is better to wear a seatbelt or to obey the speed limit. It's a cost/benefit analysis. The odds of you being in an accident where not wearing a seatbelt is useful are tiny in comparison to those where it would be.

The same is the case here, with these email rules. The features you are rattling on about are offered by some providers, but Virgin are a mass-market ISP. They will endeavour to offer the least complicated solution, to the extent that they will only offer one. They will err on the side of simplicity, and they will tend to value convenience over security, with the further addendum that convenience primarily extends to their efforts in maintaining and operating their network.

So, to reiterate - the feature you want is used more for abuse than security, notwithstanding its utility for either. Virgin are eager to reduce abuse, and there are other means of securing email. One policy for all users reduced administrative headaches, so they turn it off.

Now, as for your argument that there should be a magic switch that Virgin can flick that would allow you to send password protected attachments through their SMTP servers, there is, sort of, but it is not in their interest to use it. How, pray tell, would you determine who could be trusted to use the feature? It's on a par with the "magic technical test" or the "secret formula" that people hope for when they phone technical support - it's a nonsense, a desperate hope that'd ultimately be self-defeating. The easier alternative is to allow customers to use other SMTP servers, which Virgin... do.

You seem to continually attribute to malice, or, indeed, maternal instinct what can most easily be explained by Virgin's unwillingness to extend any more than the minimum effort for what amounts to the maximum profit. I don't think it "nanny" behaviour to suggest that in general it's not a good idea to jump off of bridges. Specific circumstances might mean that it's different, but advising you against behaviours that can cause you and others problems when you are using a service that someone else provides and administers is hardly disenfranchisement.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Well if the government gets their way of ISP's snooping on us all, then there's not much else VM can do besides what they're already doing. not being able to send encrypted/passworded files deserves a pat on the back in the step to combat crime and terrorism.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

If people have something they want to hide then the easy answer is do not use this type of data transfer, but if you want a free email service that is supplied at no extra cost to yourself by your ISP then continue to use the service.

Anyone truly paranoid about possible email surveillance should take their email requirements elsewhere.

Also just in case anyone is unaware if you decide to go to another ISP your Virginmedia email address will close and you will lose all access to your mailbox when your broadband account closes.

So maybe if you are thinking of leaving this is the time to change your email address to a none ISP based email address.

As you do not use one of these accounts Gary why are you continuing to post about it as people can do as they want with their accounts.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I've started using it again now. just so I get the right to be able to say something about it.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

But then if you have only just started using it then you have to abide by the rules already in the place for the account.

And if you don't then it's your choice NOT to use it

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

No, it doesn't work like that :D

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

They are not going to change anything though as very few people will even be interested with the fact that Virgin scans mail for such items, anyone that requires these type of emails to be sent will already have looked elsewhere for a email provider that meets their requirements.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Even if you are wrong?:confused:

Why not just use a Gmail account?:confused:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Wrong about what? :confused:

I do use a Gmail account :confused:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

So basically what you are saying is that you don't want or use VM mail but the only reason you started to do so is that you can start complaining about a rule that doesn't affect you?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Then don't use the VM account if you think their practice reprehensible.After all they will claim that it's a free service supplied with your internet account and as such you have to accept what's on offer.

However VM cannot stop you using what ever other email provider of your choice that doesn't indulge in this behaviour.

I think you just want to have a grump about VM as usual..;)

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

No, it was so that people can't say you can't complain about something if you don't use it. and it doesn't affect you.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:26 ----------

Yes Maggy. I'm grumping about them all the time. :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

But you complained about it before you started using it.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I've been with Virgin for a while now. I've used the email many times before now. so I have actually complained long after I started using it.

unless you want to tell me that I have to be using it at least 3 times a day and 5 out of 7 days a week, then can we get back on topic and stop bickering about what are basically silly points that have no relevance to anything? :)

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Er

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

This is getting silly :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Look if was made so that Gary could have enabled which he thinks he should have enabled blah blah blah. He'd soon be up at arms against VM's mail policies for allowing potential infected attachments to be sent and received.

I refer you all to the below.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

How many times do you think you have to spam the thread with that troll song?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

So, after all these posts what's the opinion.

Spying or Nanny?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Nannying, since you ask.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

What does GaryL think, spying or nannying?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

I was thinking nannying before. but now that I've discussed it with others I'm thinking snooping as well.

put me down for both.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

So what are you going to do about this nannying/snooping?

Here are some ideas for you:

Complaints,
Virgin Media,
PO Box 333,
Matrix Court,
Swansea.
SA7 9ZJ

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/

Let us know how you get on or if you don't want to post your results can you mail me at yea-right@careface.me

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Nothing.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

/pointless thread.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

No it's not. it's information about what has changed to yours and my email accounts on VM. and asking what peoples opinions of it are and if they think it's a form of spying or nannying.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

My mail hasn't changed, I'm not a VM customer, however my ISP has the same policy on their mail. So I use Googlemail and hushmail.

You got people opinions and argued against them, dragging out a thread of which you have no opinion of one way or another and aim to do nothing about having this restrictions made against you by VM.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Well, if nannying means, as has been pointed out before, that limiting attachment types can mean the reduction in Malware, then I am all for it.

Sadly there has been no tangible evidence presented here that VM have any interest what so ever in the content of your email - spying. All we have had is opinion, and some opinion has a personal agenda as its platform, or fuelled by the usual Internet snooping paranoia.

Moving on.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

If your AV software scans(as most, if not all do) inside archive(zip, rar etc), then while your email is stored on Virgin's(or google's) server's then you really should expect them to be want to be able to scan every file that is stored.

For this, and other reasons, I am not allowed to store password protected archives on the work network, neither am I allowed to use Microsoft Office's password protection mechanisms.

At the end of the day, email's not much good for file transfer anyway, 20Mb is only enough for two decent quality/size photographs.

Sorry Gary but I think this is a pointless thread, it was biased from the start as you gave the options of spying or nannying both negative to Virgin Media, how about a third, consumer safety? What next, do you want them to remove the block on SMB ports(tcp 137-139) as it may be seen as nannying?

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

ok we'll exclude you from yours. what ISP do you have that have the same policy?

Yes. debated/corrected them.

That's one less worry off my mind then. I thought I did have an opinion about it?

We're all guilty of that. we're helpless when it comes to things like this. you're just the little man fighting the big man. nobody really listens.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Some fair points.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

As you are not a member of staff I think you are the one who has been corrected throughout this thread by the people who deal with this day in day out.;)

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Or how about a fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh?
those are the 2 I chose. they might happen to be both negative unintentionally. people have said that it could be for consumer safety. why not all 3. it is possible to have a positive and a negative at the same time.

if I posted about a child abuser, asking monster or evil. would we have to have a positive such as nice man?

Well it's not spying. you can't use it for them to spy.

Re: Virgin email - spying or nanny?
 

Agreed. I have never seen so much hot air about a standard security feature. I really cant see the point in this any further, its just moaning for the sake of it. Closed.