Real Justice.
 

A man in Saudi Arabia is to be beheaded and crucified after he raped five children and left one of them, a three-year-old boy, to die in the desert.
An appeal court in the capital Riyadh approved the death sentence handed down in June by judges in the northwestern oasis city of Hail where the convicted 22-year-old man carried out his crimes.


The rapist - who was not named - was arrested several weeks ago as he tried to seize another boy after offering him a ride home from school.
The seven-year-old - who escaped unharmed - helped identify the culprit.
The man’s victims were aged between three and seven. He was said to have lured them into his car as they left school at midday and then drove them to remote desert locations to rape them.


An investigation was launched after a 25-year-old father reported that his three-year-old son was missing and that he suspected the kidnapper to be a male driver of a white four-wheel drive vehicle.


The infant was later found under a scorching sun in the desert where he had died of thirst.


A panel of three judges in Hail sentenced the rapist to death for “abhorrent� crimes which they said had terrorised the community.

Crucifixion in the conservative desert Kingdom means tying the convict’s body to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after he is decapitated by a professional swordsman.

Saudi Arabia has executed 56 people this year under laws that allow the death penalty for rape, murder, apostasy, armed robbery and drug trafficking.
In extreme cases, the convict is executed and his body crucified in public.

Respect to Saudi Arabia.... that punishment wouldn't happen here!

Cue the Human Rights Brigade.

Re: Real Justice.
 

I fully support the action provided they have the right man....

Re: Real Justice.
 

And is the exact reason why the death penalty is pointless.

Re: Real Justice.
 

Pointless?

That particular deranged individual is never going to offend again. I'd say that makes the world a better place.

Re: Real Justice.
 

Indeed :tu:

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Correct, he's not. But a policy of locking him up forever would achieve the same thing, with the added benefit of the next guy sent down for a vile crime - except this time, wrongly - would retain the possibility of appeal and eventual release. You can't be released from the grave, after all.

We have this same basic discussion every time a death penalty thread starts up on here. Capital punishment achieves nothing more than satisfying a short-term lust for vengeance at the inevitable expense of innocent people being wrongly deprived of their lives in the long term.

And it allows the self-righteous and self-loathing alike to keep telling themselves there are plenty of people in the world who are nastier than they.

Re: Real Justice.
 

It also stops the guilty from being released (often before they have served their full term) to assault more children.....

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Yes, it does. But then so does a more extensive use of whole-life tariffs. Killing someone is simply not the only possible way of ensuring they don't commit further rapes or murders.

I suspect you knew that, which is why you prefer to plug your less-than-watertight argument with appeals to emotion ... ;)

Re: Real Justice.
 

A valid point.

But, in this country at least, the term "Life Imprisonment" should mean at least that (or close). But as it stands, we hear "Bob was sentenced to life and will have to serve a minimum of 12 years" (made up example). That's not right, surely?

I think a "life sentence" should be a minimum of 45 years with no chance of parole. Of course, if you're proved innocent in the mean time, then fair do's.

Re: Real Justice.
 

A life sentence is designed to provide both punishment and the possibility of rehabilitation. The tariff ensures there is a minimum period in jail as adequate punishment, but this is only the period they must serve before applying for parole. There's no guarantee of release after that; if they don't convince the parole board they have reformed and no longer pose a risk, then they stay behind bars for as long as it takes.

Re: Real Justice.
 

I realise its the minimum they must serve before they can apply for parole, but it shouldn't be called 'Life'.

It should be, they're sentenced to 12 years... 20 years... etc.

A life sentence should be applied to some crimes, but 'Life' should have it's own terms... Such as a fixed minimum of a big magnitude such as 45 years. If you see what I mean?

I just don't think that they should use the term 'Life' and then say they must serve only 12 (again, an example) years before they can apply for parole (regardless of the chance of it actually being granted).

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That wasn't an appeal to emotion.......I was simply pointing out that Sarah Payne (for one) would still be alive if Roy Whiting (to name just one man who has no right to still be breathing) had been dealt with properly in the first place.....but I suppose thats your way of belittling my stance ;)

---------- Post added at 08:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------

You do realise that this type person is very unlikely to be 'rehabilitated'? :erm:

Re: Real Justice.
 

Thing is I would not trust these nations to dispense justice to the right people all the time. Remember in Saudi a woman can be killed for cheating on her husband ( whereas here they get half your money lol )

The same thing can be said here, look through history of those unjustly hung Ruth Ellis Derek Bently and Timothy Evans (falsely hung for the Christie murders) and look at who would have been hung if the death penalty was still here The Guilford 4 The Birmingham 6 and Barry George.

1 innocent man put to death for a crime he didnt commit is enough reason for me to be happy that we do not have the death penalty

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How can you possibly know that?

Re: Real Justice.
 

Are you gay or straight?

---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 ----------

I'd only agree with the death sentence with something like the level of proof you get with uncontested DNA evidence or similar level of proof of guilt.....

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But you are relying then on all members of the police force the medical profession and the scientists on the case being honest. Evidence can be tampered with at any point along an investigation

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:clap: gets my vote

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All murder convictions are supposed to be beyond doubt, aren't they?

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Cue another boring thread fuelled by largely untrue media stories that prisoners have a luxury lifestyle..

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Pointless for two reasons:

1) The legal system is not perfect, and does sometimes punish the wrong person or people. At least if they are in prison, they can be released if innocent. If they are dead, what can we do?

2) I have asked this a few times and never got an answer. Why should these vile people get the quick release from the aftermath of their actions? They'll be dead, but that won't help the family and friends of their victim(s) and also means that being dead, the criminal feels nothing.

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I would agree to the death penalty here if its 100% proven.
also with regards to life imprisonment its perhaps cheaper to do a death penalty really as you dont have to pay for the inmate's food, welfare, dole money, fags, you name it.

Re: Real Justice.
 

Then we can never know anything......may as well let all prisoners out?

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

We aren't talking about their lifestyle here?

Re: Real Justice.
 

Yet. However a lot of these threads do go that way.

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At least a prisoner in jail can later be proven innocent and released whereas a prisoner killed can not later be reprieved. The Timothy Evans case for example Christie even appeared as a witness

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It's impossible to be 100% proven.

The yardstick in our legal system is beyond reasonable doubt, which still leaves doubt - no matter how "unreasonable"

The death penalty is one of those things that on the face of it, is great.

However, when you look into it and look at all the injustices that there have been since is was abolished that you know you could never bring it back.

Not even DNA evidence is infallible.

Re: Real Justice.
 

True. I just get a knee jerk reaction with paedophiles.......especially when they have been caught fair and square.....the person who did this took a 3yo into the desert, raped him and left him to die in the heat. He has no place amongst humanity and imo should be put down like the dangerous animal he is. I would gladly execute him myself.

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------

Hmmm......I don't care about their lifestyle (well ok, maybe a little)......it's the way that they are so often released to rape and kill once more....thats what I have a big problem with....
They cannot be 'cured' and yet they are so often let out of jail!

Re: Real Justice.
 

But as is so often in cases such as this, there is so litle independaent information, it is impossible to know whether he was caught fairly, or indeed squarely.

Going by Saudi Arabia's track record, there should be enough doubt in people's minds as to whether this person really did get a fair trial. My own suspicions are that he was tried on the basis of homosexual acts, rather than the harm he has, or may have, caused children. Hence the severity of his punishment; especially as these were boys. I shudder to think what the punishment might have been, if they had been only girls. I do believe, although I may have succumbed to popular misconceptions, that it is often that the girl is blamed for being raped, rather than the perpetrator.

But I wonder what the rate of re-offending for these crimes are.

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90% according to the BBC.....and that fits with what child protection workers have told me.
You can't stop people from being attracted to what they are attracted to sexually. I am attracted to women, not men......you can't 'cure' me of that. You cannot cure paedophiles from being sexually attracted to children. Different paedophiles have different attractions, boys, girls, very young, pre-teen etc.....thats the way their brains are, you can't change it. Either lock them up for life or execute them......and since our liberal justice system seems to have a problem with locking people up for life......

Re: Real Justice.
 

Some source material would be useful.

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you are missing chemical castration

Incidentally and I realise this is going to go down like a ton of bricks if as you say its a natural attraction like yours and mine hetrosexuallity are you not giving them the arguement that its genetic and they were born that way therefore it is not their choice?

(I do not support this theory btw in any way shape or form)

Re: Real Justice.
 

People on life sentences are also only released on license. This means that whilst being out of prison they are never actually free. They always have conditions on what they can and can't do and can be put back in prison at the drop of a hat, and even committing the most minor of crimes will lead to them being sent straight to jail immediately on arrest.

Re: Real Justice.
 

Life sentences are not conducive to rehabilitation, if there is no hope of parole.

Re: Real Justice.
 

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I think you might have missed something in your interpretation of the facts:

Re: Real Justice.
 

iirc, thats not even all that effective

I'm not saying it's necessarily genetic, just that it's the way their brains are 'wired' by nature or nurture......but I do agree that it's not their choice.

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

Yeah, but they ain't dead yet......therefore we can't say if they never will reoffend.......all we do know is that 90% (or 70-80% according to other studies) reoffend

You have a touchingly naive belief in 'treatment' :)

Re: Real Justice.
 

then you are classing it the same as hetro and homo sexuality. Its a dangerous path. I have no idea what makes someone a pedophile but if it is genetic the same as hetro and homo then what do we do about them then? remember homosexuality was illegal up until recentish history obviously that is not an option for pedophiles but if they are genetically inclined to be the way they are then killing them is a horrendously brutal option.

They also used to think homosexuality was treatable too

I obviously do not think its acceptable and am purely playing devils advocate

Re: Real Justice.
 

So are you in favour of sharia law in the UK?

Re: Real Justice.
 

It's not their choice to feel that way, it IS their choice to act on it. There are plenty of pedophiles that do not act on their urges, who choose to ignore it and are perfectly capable of living normal lives in the community. This is another reason why crimes dealing with it have high re-offending rates, the ones that offend in the first place are the ones that cannot control them, and so the risk that they'll therefore re-offend in future is naturally far higher.

To support the fact it's a natural attraction then you only have to look at it only being quite recently in human history that pedophilia has been seen as wrong, and there's still many tribal communities around the world where it's actively practiced. Not much has changed in the human brain since then, only social conditioning.

Re: Real Justice.
 

Lock em up forever for the good of our children......but in the case of that one in Saudi, I'd kill him.....

Re: Real Justice.
 

How isnt chemical castration effective?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration
Not a resounding success....
btw, it's hard to find any studies about chemical castration and it's efficacy, this suggests that we don't really know how effective it is :shrug:

Re: Real Justice.
 

its not negative either though is it?

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Maybe you are not looking in the right place. A quick search revealed five papers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...=related_query

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http://www.matrixknowledge.com/wp-co...es-article.pdf
shows that the annual average cost for each prisoner exceeds £40,000.

I pay .035 pence per round of .22 rimfire ammunition, I'm sure that the Government can get it cheaper.

You do the maths.

Re: Real Justice.
 

Not positive enough though :(

---------- Post added at 19:16 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------

I looked there with various search requests! :doh:

Then again, those don't talk about it's efficacy.....

Re: Real Justice.
 

I know what you mean. How about this one?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6...&ordinalpos=17

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Yep, but not good enough......

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An eighty-four per cent success rate is pretty god actually. Add to that the eighty per cent success rate after psychological treatment, it does seem so bad, in comparison. That leaves a margin of just three per cent, or a success rate of ninety-seven per cent.

Re: Real Justice.
 

can you show the mathemagical calculations on this i'm a little confused :confused:

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I don't blame you. I was using maths and statistical analyses, as it is taught at the Daily Mail Academy of Mathemagics. :D

The apparent success rate of chemical castration, according to Ramrod, is eighty-four per cent (forty out of forty-eighty, according his source). Add to that the statistic from the link given earlier, asserting that the treatment of offenders does not work, but really works eighty per cent of the time. So, eighty percent of sixteen per cent leaves three per cent, making a success rate of the two treatments together, of ninety-seven per cent. Simple really. :D

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No, one place claimed a success rate of 80% while they were being treated. They may well drop back to the standard 90% failure once the treatment stops; and probably will.

Re: Real Justice.
 

what about medical castration then as an option so slipping back when they are nutless

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You have absolutely no evidence that that would happen. Bear in mind you provided the source as your proof of your assertion. :rolleyes:

But just to remind you of what you are basing your assumptions on:

No, you may have noticed that I have underlined the word "after." This meaning that this is the result "after" treatment, not during.

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But neither you nor they have evidence that those 80% will continue to be good boys till the day they die :shrug:
You really think that a 'course' would make you change your sexual orientation/attraction for life?



true, I misread it, my bad. But my argument above still stands.

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

That works for some but apparently (according to those in the 'know' that I have spoken to) a lot of the attraction is mental, so removing the physical gubbins isn't enough to stop them interfreing with kids in a lot of cases.....
........as you know I speak to a wide and varied cross section of society every day :)

Re: Real Justice.
 

But there is evidence, you provided it. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No it doesn't, that was whole premise for your argument. :rolleyes:

According to those in the 'know' that I have spoken to? Hardly a provable statistic. Where have they got their information from? :rolleyes:

Re: Real Justice.
 

No, all that can be gleaned from that link is that at the time of writing, 'only' 20% had reoffended. You cannot take that and extrapolate that the other 80% will abstain from molosting kids for the rest of their lives.



From working as local authority & police child protection types. It's their jobs......

Re: Real Justice.
 

But you tried to use this "evidence" to prove your assertion that ninety per cent re-offended. You can't use the "evidence" to prove your theory, but use it to disprove another that it agrees with. :rolleyes:

Yes......of course. :rolleyes:

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The 90% who reoffend figure is the easy one, they have reoffended. It's a different figure about paedophiles who weren't on that course-ie the vast majority.
Of the pedophiles who attended the course, 20% reoffended and 80% hadn't at the time of writing. That doesn't mean tha they will remain good boys for the rest of their lives.......



I can only repeat what I am often told by people in child protection :shrug:
If you want to be sarcastic about that thats your call :(

Re: Real Justice.
 

Funnily enough, I was talking to a child protection worker today about all this who has 'no idea' as to paedophile reoffending rates and tends to 'act sympathetically' with offenders; doesn't 'subscribe to the Daily Mail view'.......I noticed he was holding a copy of the Guardian :D