Lockerbie bomber released
 

Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi the man who was convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is to be released on compassionate grounds next week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8198603.stm

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

what do you expect. They are already talking of releasing the killers of baby Peter so why not this animal as well.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Fine by me. By all means release him but from a 747 flying at the same altitude as the Lockerbie plane when his bomb detonated.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

According to many articles in Private Eye the evidence that he was the bomber is tenuous at best. I believe that an appeal was pending, by releasing the prisoner the government hope to avoid it proceeding and hope to avoid any more embarrassing revelations.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Yeah this stinks to me. I think this guy was never guilty and the government are kacking bricks that the truth may come out. I would not really be surprised if he isnt even dying

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

There is something quite sketchy about this whole sorry affair.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Heard one guest on bbc news saying your letting ronnie biggs out so why not this guy.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Very, very smelly, I'd say. :erm:

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

He was convicted so let him rot in our jail and we should feel the same compassion towards him as his countrymen feel towards us.

This is a slap in the face for the families of the victims.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Strange isn't it. A UK spokesman for the victims families said there were too many unanswered questions at the trial and that they believed he was NOT guilty.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

I think you'll find that leaving people to rot in jail in circumstances where there are highly questionable elements of their convictions is a bad idea - see: Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, The Bridgwater Four, The M25 Three, Sally Clark, Barry George etc etc etc for further info.

In relation to this particular case last October the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission identified six grounds where it believed a miscarriage of justice may have occurred.

Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi is, at least, entitled to have those grounds addressed.

Having someone jailed who is subsequently found to have been innocent of a crime is, in many ways - not least psychologically, more of a slap in the face to the victims and their families.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

His release has nothing to do with the circumstances of his conviction He is being released due to ill health exactly the same reason Ronnie Biggs was released. ( Who now seems to of made a rather miraculous recover)

Don't think either of them should be released, if his conviction is found to be suspect, then that's a different story.

JJ

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

fair play !! if its not to much to ask,this guy is being set up.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

He has cancelled that appeal now, so it looks like his release really is imminent then, personally I'd have liked him to have appealed and cleared his name if, as many suspect, he is innocent but then it isn't me on borrowed time with terminal cancer.

I heard an English victims relative saying 'he is innocent let him out' and an American relative saying 'keep him in, he'll be treated as a hero', well if he is innocent I hope he is, his sacrifice finally got the sanctions lifted and made conditions in Lybia a lot better for its citizens, that's a big if of course, let's just hope that we know what we are doing and not letting a guilty mass murderer out, not exactly got much confidence in our ptb at the moment though.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

I seem to remember Tony Blair saying that now relations with Libya and Gaddafi have normalised, one of the first things on the agenda would be extraditing the murderer of WPC Evonne Fletcher, what about her families compassionate rights?

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

What worries me is the attitude that we have someone in prison who was convicted on the flimsiest evidence with people still baying for his blood, whilst the real purpetrators are still free.

It is as if "well we have someone convicted & that will do" which to my mind is no justice at all and accepting convictions like this as written in stone does no one any favours.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

The Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC) found that a major miscarriage of justice may have occurred, and granted leave for al Megrahi to have a second appeal.

Have a read of these links Mr Angry posted earlier in the thread:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...n-1206086.html

http://www.firmmagazine.com/features..._justice,.html



http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co....l/article.html

Dr Swire also supported al Megrahi's second appeal, and believes that he is innocent.

Many other relatives of the British victims also have doubts over the verdict, and support al Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds (with some also believing he is innocent as Dr Swire does).


The US relatives though mostly feel the opposite, & do not support it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/au...bomber-release

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Anyone wanting to acquaint themselves further with this matter should read the startling, and factual, revelations here and here.

If you're the type who thinks that your Government are "beyond reproach" (Sirius obviously does not apply) then please be advised that a stiff drink is recommended before delving too deep.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Another couple of articles:

"Vital Lockerbie evidence 'was tampered with' "

"Lockerbie evidence not disclosed "

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

He's being released. In fact he's expected to fly out of Glasgow in the next 15 minutes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...nd/8197370.stm

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

It must be very difficult for the families of the victims to get closure on their tragic loss. There are so many questions left unanwered.

Part of the dropped appeal was rumoured to be significant new evidence provided by a foreign power, not the USA. Surely now the excuses for not having a public enquiry must be seen to be flimsier even than the evidence that convicted the scapegoat Megrahi.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

America won't be happy about this will they especially Hillary Clinton, they should just leave him in there

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Keep a terminally ill, potentially innocent, man in jail to appease the Americans. :erm:

Why would we want to do that? :confused:

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

While his guilt or innocence is in doubt there should be no end to the investigation and personally until proved conclusively to be innocent he should have remained in jail. I smell politics here and therefore no chance of any truth ever being known now. As for releasing criminals on compassionate grounds it should only be done after they have shown real regret and sorrow for their crimes if they don't then show them the same compassion they showed others and keep them locked up.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Nothing can be done about it now and it is just another case of Brown toadying to the likes of Gaddaffi and The Dark Lord meeting Gaddaffi's son

All that then happens is the Libyans see this and realise how spineless a country we now are.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Don't you think our real enemies in Iran and Syria already know this, they have been watching and hindering our efforts on their own doorsteps for years.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

They all see how week and spineless we are and that we will kiss the ass of any dictator.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

Ronnie Biggs didn't kill 200+ people.

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

You can smell politics alright, £13 billion worth of BP Oil gusing into the UK each year from Lybia.

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

And we've got innocent people in foreign jails waiting for a trial to see if they are going to be locked up for something they didn't do.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Yes, the USA always think that they are right, don't they? Remember the justification for the Gulf war was WMD (none found). It was just Bush JNR wanting to complete what Bush SNR didn't.

Oh, and wasn't oil involved.

I get sick of this old colony trying to tell everyone what to do.

Re: Lockerbie bomber release imminent
 

True.

Although another thing regarding Ronnie Biggs is that there wasn't any doubt of his guilt.

The same can't be said for al-Megrahi, given all the unanswered questions, & those little things like the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC) finding that a major miscarriage of justice may have occurred.

I think it's a pity he had to withdraw his appeal to be able to get compassionate release.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

i personally don't agree with him being released on compassionate grounds at all ,no prisoner should be released on compassionate grounds ,in this case i don't think he should have been locked up at all as the evidence was flimsy to say the least add the political side to the argument and things start to look a tad shady. I also don't give hoot what the yanks want or think ,they are now demanding he is kept under house arrest untill he dies ,who the hell do they think they are

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

So I guess you didn't know that justice is a devolved issue, and that this decision was absolutely nothing to do with Gordon Brown or anyone else in the Labour Party.

This decision was taken by Kenny McAskill, the justice secretary in the devolved Scottish Executive. McAskill is a member of the SNP.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Would you trust Brown or the Dark lord not to have bent his ear when it involves billions in oil from Libya?

I for one would trust them not to have meddled about as far as I could throw Libya.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

On the other hand, they really irked the Americans. If he was not released people would have said Brown and the 'Dark Lord' intervened to please the Americans and how we are America's lapdogs and so on.

I suspect Brown and Labour were very pleased not to have to deal with this issue at all and stayed as far out of it as possible. It's a lose-lose situation. They would be nuts to have to get involved. It appers McAskill was in an unfortunate situation and everyone else stayed way clear of it.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

seriously Chris i didn't think you were that naive ,this whole saga has politics smeared all over it imo it had nothing to do with true justice just finding a scapegoat to apease the relatives (who weren't as daft as the gov hoped)and getting on making under the table deals with Gaddafi

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

There WAS WMD in Iraq. We (the West) sold them to Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war. All the Security services had to do was check the receipts :dozey:

In this case I think he should have been transferred to a Libyan Jail to complete the rest of his days closer to his family but not released.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Seriously?

• The Scottish Justice system is independent. Brown and Co cannot influence it.
• Even if they could, it's a different party. What authority does Brown have over the SNP? None.
• Why on earth would anyone choose to get involved in this mess? It's a poisoned chalice and anyone could spot it.
• Pleasing America is more important to our government that pleasing Libya.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

i'm not sure how much of a distinction the american public draw between Scottish and British justice so as far as they are concerned "the british have let them down"

nobody chooses to get involved in a mess like this they just are because of the job they do and Brown should be involved just to prove he is in touch with public opinion and has some balls and doesn't just walk away from issues to tough for him to handle

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Sorry ... how about you run along, read up on Scottish devolution and what it means, and then pass comment when you have at least a slender grasp of the subject.

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:38 ----------

If they were stupid enough to try, it would have made no difference. Except that it might have given the SNP some valuable political ammunition with which to beat the Labour Party.

Really, you lot south of the border need to go and read up on how devolution works in Scotland. We have a real parliament here that makes real laws and real ministers with real executive responsibilities. Justice issues like these are simply not in the remit of any London-based minister, they are in the hands of Scottish Ministers in Edinburgh who answer to the Holyrood parliament, not Westminster.

No matter what G. Brown and Co. think about the release of Megrahi, it wasn't their decision to make or to influence and attempting to get involved would have been political suicide, in Scotland at least.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

But you still get your money from Central government and Gordon and Meddlesome have hold of those purse strings and you actually still trust them.;)

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Those responsible for releasing this guy may see it as a worthy act of compassion but I can't help feeling that around the globe, terrorists and their supporters will see this as just another example of weakness. Rather than gaining respect amongst those whose hearts and minds we need to win, I think this action is more likely to inspire more derision than anything else. I don't think people who deliberately commit mass slaughter of innocents and gruesomely murder helpless people in front of cameras then distribute the footage will moderate their behaviour in any way as a result of this decision. If anything they'll just despise us more.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Do people here opposing to his release believe he did it? I was not interested in politics when it happened and didn't follow the details of the trial or the subsequent follow up. However having read some of the information from the links posted, as well as the recent press, I would say that there was so much doubt surrounding his conviction that he should not have been locked up in the first place, or been allowed to stay in prison for so long.

So are all the people complaining that he is back in Libya and escaped punishment saying he is guilty?

On page 15 of today's Sun there is a picture of him getting off the plane in Libya with a huge headline across the page saying, "Final Insult". The one page article makes no reference to the doubts surrounding his conviction. It does not suprise me with media coverage like this going out to the masses, that so many people think, "Yes he is guilty. String the ******* up!"

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I'd have thought the answer to that is evidently yes. In the eyes of the law he is guilty, of course, but having now abandoned his appeal it's doubtful we'll ever find out whether there was a miscarriage of justice. Some will argue his release was agreed simply in order to save HMG's embarrassment....

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

SLM i don't know if he was guilty or not i am certainly not convinced he was but until such as that had been established beyond reasonable doubt he should have remained in custody and the investigation should have continued. There is politics in this somewhere whether that be in scotland or not whether it is to do with his release or his conviction but politics is in there. I oppose compassionate release unless as i said the person concerned has demonstrated true remorse and regret over whatever actions placed them in prison and it shouldn't be something that gets abused the way it does right now. Ronnie biggs that frail poor old man that seems to have come on in leaps and bounds since his release and lets not forget the guiness guy (think it was guiness anyway but i am sure someone remembers it better then me) a few years ago who had a really bad illness till he got released and wollah instant cure.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Don't get me wrong, if he had been found guilty beyound reasonable doubt, then he should have stayed in prison. The fact is that there is a lot of doubt surrounding his conviction.


Can I rephrase my original question.

Do those opposed to his release genuinely believe that, given all the doubt surrounding his trial and conviction, he should have been convicted of the bombing?

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

The BBC is reporting that Gordon Brown wrote to Col. Gadaffi reqesting that there be only a low profile reception given to Megrahi on his return to Libya. Unsurprisingly they don't appeared to have listened....

Found this link to a Guardian article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...n-brown-letter

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

to be fair they closed the airport of to media but some one recorded it from out side

they would have been shouted at if they banned those who supported him meeting him

you would see exactly the same thing here from a family of a released prisoner who was still guilty but where the family / supporters didn't agree with the conviction etc

whether or not he was guilty is not why he was released we don't keep dieing people in prison unless they are still a danger to us ( see ronnie biggs )

the media will hype it as its a story to make them money

i doubt you will see much from America or Britain in sanctions or anything else as the real scandal is both used this conviction to allow them to do trade deals with the country they supposedly believe caused the bombing ( i tend to think Iran is a more likely place the orders came from to make amends for the shooting down of one of their passenger planes by the Americans which of course the deaths there don't count as much as one it was a mistake and two they aren't Americans ;) )

as to being soft on terrorism i think accusing Scotland of that is being silly they were always on a looser with this case as the British government always saw putting this under Scottish law as the get out clause so it couldn't be said we made the decision or acquit or later release him

but any one who thinks the British Minister of what ever party was in power wouldn't have done the same is not being truthful with themselves ;)

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

i think we "south of the border" are quite familiar with devolution and how it works Chris we get it rammed down our throats every time Scotland wants to play at being a country
in this case G brown should not have left such a huge descision like this to a second rater like kenny macaskill who only speaks for a very small part of the uk
The original "deal"was to make anybody convicted serve their sentence in Scotland it should have been adhered to or a new trial held if their were doubts as to his guilt not this stupid compassionate grounds flimflam.
So Chris you can "run along now" back to your "devoluted"country secure in the knowledge that the Scottish justice system has just let a mass murderer out of jail and probably secured an enormous propaganda coup to one of the worlds most hated men
Interesting to note also that Gaddafi has thanked the british gov aswell as the scottish so now tell me Brown wasn't involved

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

You are entitled to you opinion but innocent i dont think so.
It takes a lot of evidence to give someone 27 years.

---------- Post added at 06:17 ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 ----------

strongly agree

Screw Kenny and sack Brown

---------- Post added at 06:27 ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 ----------

We have Gary McKinnon being extradited to the us to face jail for life which he will do when there and he never killed 270 people. I think he should be let off on compassionate grounds dont you think? As kenny said we are a compassionate nation.

I am discusted this this country and canny wait till it goes under water...

---------- Post added at 06:42 ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 ----------

Shame on the British government for a treaty set up by the war criminal Tony Blair which has only been ratified by the UK. This means that the British government can send us to America to be tortured and abused but no American has or will be extradited to the UK.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

The treaty was fully ratified by the US in September 2006 (and came into force April 26, 2007), and as at December 2007, there had been 17 US citizens extradited to the UK - linky
btw, I don't think Gary McKinnon should be extradited - I think he should be tried in the UK.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Col. Gadaffi's son has apparently claimed that the subject of Megrahi's release was raised during trade talks with British representatives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...nd/8215554.stm

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the case during the Bliar years and ever since. We may never know the truth about this case but, given the nature of politics, to believe that Scotland's justice system and devolved powers could preclude Westminster (or indeed other 'foreign' powers) from ever having any significant influence in matters such as these is naive.

Ps Chris - "you lot south of the border" is a rather sweeping generalisation isn't it?

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

hink
I think they should give him a well paid job. This guy could secure the security of what he invaded or should i say what was not secure in the first place..

Instead of punnishing this guy just employ him it would be to there advantage.. dont u t

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

... and yet the rest of your post only goes to show that in reality, you don't have the first clue about how Scottish devolution works, or even how the Acts of Union work:

Scotland was guaranteed a distinct system of law right at the start of the Union, in the Acts of Union. It was a Scottish court that tried and convicted Megrahi in the first place; not a 'UK' court. One of the reasons the Acts of Union guaranteed this was precisely to stop people like you demanding that Scotland should have less influence in the Union simply because it has a smaller population. Let's not forget, England has the capital, which is a huge draw attracting both people and resources, so the argument that Scotland is 'small' and (by extension) England is 'big' is a little self-serving, don't you think?

At the time of the original trial, prior to the Scotland Act which brought about devolution, this was overseen by the Scottish Office, which is a department of the UK Government. But now, post the Scotland Act, justice issues are entirely and exclusively decided by Scottish Ministers in Edinburgh.

Gordon Brown had no choice in the matter. For him to have taken the decision away from McAskill would have required an Act of Parliament to be passed at Westminster, partially repealing the Scotland Act. That would have been a political nuke of the kind that could very well trigger massive support for the SNP in Scotland, followed by a legitimate referendum, followed by loud, persistent and probably irresistible demands for the break-up of the UK. That is something that Gordon Brown does not want. Nor do I, for that matter.

Megrahi did serve his sentence in Scotland. He has not been transferred to Libya as a prisoner, he has been released and then deported.

Compassionate grounds is not unheard of by any means, for prisoners who are at death's door. Ronnie Biggs got out of jail on exactly the same pretext a matter of weeks ago. And that decision was taken by Labour; by Jack Straw to be precise, because he is the justice minister responsible for such matters in England and Wales.

That's 'devolved'. And yes, I am telling you that Brown wasn't involved. After all, if a true Brit like you doesn't have a clue how Scottish devolution works, why should you think Gaddafi has any better idea?

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Well some of the comments the libyans are coming out with seem to hint at some sort of deal with gaddafi's son saying it was always discussed at trade talks and gaddafi senior personally thanking GB so if no interference at all why thank GB. This whole thing does have a smell about it almost as much as the original conviction and there is definately something here that were not being told.

Also like the way improved relatiosn meant that when both obama and GB asked for a low key return it was honoured a real smack in the face to both of them.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

... because the Libyan government doesn't understand the nature of devolution. Nor do most people, it seems. Gaddafi has been bending the UK Government's ear over this for years, now Megrahi is out, naturally who are they going to say thanks to? Who are they going to assume fixed it, the UK Government or a small-time minister in (as we have already been reminded) a tiny corner of the UK?

Remember, Lybia is effectively an authoritarian state, practically a dictatorship. Everything they understand about how governments work tells them that Gordon Brown must have been behind any decision that was taken. The idea that the Prime Minister is effectively powerless in this is an alien concept to them. The fact that they think he was involved and are giving him big public thanks doesn't tell us anything at all about what, supposedly, 'really went on'.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Well i am not so sure to be honest and i think you have too much faith in devolution and i think you underestimate the understanding of it by libya as i doubt very much that they didn't find out how things work in scotland before this release.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Faith or otherwise in devolution has got nothing to do with it. This has nothing to do with how good or bad devolution is at serving the interests of the Scottish people; it's about the Law. And the Law says the UK Prime Minister is powerless to affect this issue.

Of course there's nothing in the Law to say he couldn't have had a word in Alex Salmond's ear, but there are other equally powerful concerns at work in that case - such as the fact the SNP would be able to dine out on such a suggestion for months ahead, especially with a crucial Glasgow by-election and then a general election in the offing.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

[QUOTE=Chris;34858909]... because the Libyan government doesn't understand the nature of devolution. Nor do most people, it seems. Gaddafi has been bending the UK Government's ear over this for years, now Megrahi is out, naturally who are they going to say thanks to? Who are they going to assume fixed it, the UK Government or a small-time minister in (as we have already been reminded) a tiny corner of the UK?

on the contrary Chris ,i think Gaddafi ,his son and any one else in the libyan government fully understand about devolution ,even as disliked as he is, he is known as a very clever politician .I think the appeal was dropped because it would have revealed truths about the bombing that gaddafi doesn't want the british gov (or any other gov for that matter)making public and thus ruining any trade deals that are on the table
i still strongly believe that g brown and his cohorts had a big influence on the final decision even though he's not supposed to get involved in matters of criminal justice in scotland the british gov still have absolute power on foreign policy and in this case they are closely linked
as i have said in a earlier post i don't believe Magrahi should have been released on compassionate grounds ,why should any criminal ,he should have followed through with his appeal ,i think he would have been released anyway because of the doubts over his conviction which the scottish gov admit so to keep him in prison and risk losing important trade deals is i think madness and i do think Gbrown made this clear to Macaskill even if it was under the table

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Fine, let's play along with your conspiracy theory for a minute or two.

What did the SNP administration in Edinburgh have to gain by obeying underhand 'requests' from Westminster? Or, what did they stand to lose by ignoring any such requests?

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

We don't know what the truth of this situation is or who might gain what but I don't think it's entirely implausible for one government to press another to take a certain course of action in return for, say, some much needed government contracts or investment. If major trade deals were/are in the offing with Libya on the basis of Megrahi's release, maybe the powers that be down south felt they could lean on their friends in Holyrood in return for bailing out their national banks. Quid pro quo and all that. I wonder how many decisons made in Westminster over the decades have been wholly or partly influenced by pressure from the US....

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

As I said earlier who actually holds the purse strings and were does the funds that Scotlands government use come from, where from that is quite easy it comes from Central Government in Westminster, and if they hold the purse strings then that is a powerful bit of leverage.

We will never know the truth in our lifetime as to what actually happened but we can speculate.

As the old saying goes Money makes the world go around and it is quite a persuader when something is needed to be done

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

But this is precisely the point which so many posters in this thread are missing. The Labour government in Westminster has no friends amongst the SNP government in Edinburgh. They are very bitter opponents. The SNP has nothing to gain by doing G. Brown a favour, and everything to gain by publicising any attempt the London government might make to influence a devolved issue.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Labour may not have friends amongst the SNP but they do hold the purse stings which gives Labour possible leverage.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

and don't believe for a second that the US weren't fully involved here to, if Obama really didn't want him released he wouldn't have been, sure he might dish out a few sound bites to appease the victims families and the press but this whole recent situation has been very convenient for all concerned, no damaging appeal, no need to look for the real/other perps, lucrative trade deals all round etc etc this wasn't Scotland's decision nor was it Kenny's, he's as much of a pawn in all this as Megrahi.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

There have been many occasions over the years when it has been temporarily expedient to deal with and even form alliances with bitter enemies. As I've said we don't know all the facts or the background to this affair but I wouldn't entirely rule out this being an example of such an arrangement between 'enemies' who both feel the mutual benefits outweigh the risks or costs, political or otherwise.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Leverage which, if used, could be taken advantage of by the SNP to cause massive damage to the UK and UK government.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

That's how grubby little deals work isn't it and that's the risk the, often desperate, people who enter into them take. If any of this is true, maybe Brown (who must be pretty sure he and his cohorts are getting booted out at the next election anyway) calculated that it'd be worth the risk. He's desperate enough to do or say virtually anything and we all know how poor his calculations have been over the years don't we!... As has been said, despite all their rhetoric opposing the release, the US authorities have very probably made similar strategic calculations and decided it was in their best interests too.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

As I previously said above, I doubt that in our lifetime we will ever know the truth.

As for the possibility of the SNP causing waves with the potential of possible funding cuts waved in their faces by the likes of Meddlesome I would not be so sure as I would not trust that man to pull some kind of dirty trick.

Do not think for one second that I am in any way putting down the Scottish assembly, I just do not trust the present government of the whole of the UK to have acted honourably in the freeing of this man.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Thats the crux here we don't trust the westminster government and like it or not they do have some influence over scotland even if it is only financial and i really wouldn't put it past GB and co to use that to get what they want. Chris don't mistake our scepticism on this matter as an attack on scotland or it's devolution because it isn't it is yet another clear attack on the integrity of this shambolic crowd we currently have ruling in westminster.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...onnection.html

Would it really surprise anyone if behind the scenes trade deals had been done or at least attempted by the Dark Lord or his colleagues??

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

From The Telegraph.....again.

"What is perhaps not widely understood is that the process behind Megrahi’s release began not with Alex Salmond’s devolved SNP administration in Edinburgh, but with the Labour government in London – or, more specifically, with Tony Blair*. It was the then prime minister who brokered a secret prisoner transfer agreement with Gaddafi, as part of a general thawing of relations between the West and this former rogue state. It was linked to suggestions that massive new British, American and European investment in Libya’s vast oil and gas fields would be forthcoming if only the Libyans would mend their ways. The small matter of the Lockerbie bomber was a fly in the ointment.

Blair didn’t inform the authorities in Edinburgh of his deal, even though they were responsible for Megrahi’s conviction and incarceration. Salmond and the independent Scottish law officers only found out about it when they were tipped off by senior prison service officials. Downing Street then compounded the original error by trying to pretend that the deal done with Gaddafi did not concern Megrahi, even though he was the only Libyan held in any British jail."



*Tony Blair is a man who does not "talk with terrorists" and has been more than happy to send 200+ British personnel to their untimely deaths in Afghanistan.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

... and yet there are still some people around here who refuse to admit or accept just how duplicitous Bliar, Brown and their cohorts have been over the years they've been in power. :mad:

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

In that case, don't call it an assembly, call it what it is - a parliament, with the power to pass primary legislation and ministers to carry it out. ;) Devolution in Scotland is not the same thing as in Wales, not by a long way.

Only if you're determined to believe it happened in some way other than it should have, or as it manifestly did.

The funding of Scotland is determined by a fixed formula that sets it in direct proportion to money spent in England. Once again, you're crediting UK ministers with having powers they simply do not have.

You're also continuing to show complete ignorance of the political situation in Scotland - and I use 'ignorance' in its correct sense, not as an intended insult. Since getting into government the SNP has consistently played out a strategy of looking for conflict with Westminster, seeking to show how 'London Labour' is bad for Scotland, complaining at every non-devolved decision taken in London that affects Scotland ... in every possible way to claim that the Union doesn't work and Scotland should break away (except that they call it 'independence' rather than separation, because that serves their aim of painting Scotland as being somehow under English control or domination).

If there was the merest whiff of Gordon Brown trying to influence last week's decision about Megrahi, you can be quite sure that Alex Salmond would have been in every TV studio in the whole of the UK making sure we all knew about it. And if the UK Government had found some means of 'punishing' Scotland with reduced funding, it would serve the SNP's long-term aims to take the hit in the wallet and then use that as another means of bashing the Union.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Salmond's nothing if not a canny guy and if he has got some dirt on Gordon you can bet he'll use it if he can but at the time that best suits him and the SNP best, just before an election possibly and not necessarily in a manner which betrays him/them as the source. This is all just another a political game and there is a myriad of means by which Westminster can exert pressure on Holyrood (and vice versa) some of which will be more successful than others. It's not impossible, however, that the SNP has a few rather nasty skeletons in their closet. If that were the case and they were known to Brown, that'd be just one way of preventing Salmond from spilling any beans in this case. That's the way politics works.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Well this has certainly caused bad blood all the way round has it not?:(

The whole thing leaves a bad taste in the mouth..and the Lockerbie victims do seem to have been pushed to one side..But at the end of the day the Scottish judicial system can only do what it can do without breaking it's own laws.Whatever they decided someone was going to peed off about it.

But at least it was done as well as any democracy can do these things..and to expect anything else is unfair.

Nice also of Gaddafi's son to muddy the waters..Gets everyone at everyone's throats.Very typical of the way the Libyans go about life and politics.:rolleyes:

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

This guy has been let out to DIE. What's the problem?

And it was nice to see the Scottish government speaking up against American pressure, something Gordon Brown would be too scared to do.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Would there be any point in mentioning Occam's Razor at this juncture?

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I have no problem releasing this guy, 3 months to live, let him go home & die, save us the cost of shipping his worthless carcase back. The Scottish have taken a brave stand by releasing him, they knew the pressure was on.

I do have a big problem with him returning to a hero's welcome. Libya, Gadaffi, may have renounced terrorism, but words are cheap, their actions speak for them, & shows why they can not be trusted on the world stage.

Perhaps in hindsight it would have been better to let him rot in jail & pay the shipping bill.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I think Libya was entitled to give him any welcome they wanted, it's their country and they don't have to do what we or America says. George Bush used to get a heroes welcome when he visited troops.....and we all know he was the world's #1 terrorist ;)

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

No sorry but a lowkey return would not have been losing face for anyone and the fact he returned the way he did was distasteful and insensitive and does show a little of lybias attitude. As Maggy said we have to remember there are many victims familys that also deserved a little respect in this matter and lybia could have shown that and got something positive from this. The whole affair from start to finish has a grubby feel to it and that will be felt most by the familys of the victims but then these days we don't seem to factor them in anymore which says a lot about our systems as well.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I made an error in calling the Scottish parliament an assembly but I still do not trust the UK government not to have applied pressure on the Scottish parliament.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...t-1776188.html

http://consortiumnews.com/2009/082109a.html

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Strange that Lisa Pease makes no mention of Bernt Carlsson.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I don't really know the full story i didn't even know anything about it until it was on the news the other day, the news never mentioned anything about him being innocent but now iv heard he is going to try and prove his innocents, now that's making me think he is innocent i mean why say it when your free?

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

His conviction is dodgy to say the least while i am not familiar with all the evidence that i have seen is not wholly convincing. I believe megrahi took one for the team and maybe thats a part of the reason for the way he was greeted when he returned. I doubt very much we will ever get the truth about lockerbie and i feel sorry for the victms familys because there will never be full closure for them but there is too much risk for politicians in pursuing this matter any further and i think they will be happy to bury it now.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

No - I think we should discount it :D Political expediency rather than morality or compassion is the key to issues such as these - quid pro quo, deals behind closed doors etc. which often serve the interests of our glorious leaders more than anything else. Neither you, I or anyone else around here knows the truth but we can smell a rat and certainly speculate that there has been political interference in this decision for whatever reason and despite Obama's public stance, we can't even rule out the US from that possibility.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

i just hope that the people of america won't boycott scottish products
the government made this decision....not the scottish people

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Maybe something for the scottish people to remember next time there is an election if there are many that are not happy about this.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

The SNP is a minority administration and is only in power because in 2007 Labour had to accept that its share of the vote had shrunk by too much for a continuing Labour executive to have any legitimacy (besides, IIRC the Lib Dems also decided to walk away from the coalition).

Unless the SNP significantly improves its share of the vote in 2011, they have absolutely no chance of remaining in power. That said, Labour nationally is now so unpopular that the SNP is likely to do well out of the Westminster elections next year, regardless of any ill-feeling over Megrahi's release.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

They should have let the families of the people who lost love ones ten minutes a peice alone with him and he would not have got any chance to be released! Sorry that is my opinion . But in regards to the scottish parliment they did have big balls to do this and i do feel sorry for the scottish people at the way they have been treated .
BUT ONE LAST WORD :
MAY I WISH PEACE AND LOVE TO THE LOCKERBIE AND THE OTHER PEOPLE LOST IN ONE OF THE TRAGERDIES THAT HAS ALL BECOME MORE APPERANT IN THE AGE OF TERROISM
R.I.P

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Whilst I agree that Labour is nationally unpopular at present, I believe that at the next general election Labour will re-gain its majority in the Scottish parliament due to the fact that however unpoplar they are the Scottish electorate would rather a center left party in power than the Tories.
From a Conservative point of view I'd guess they'd be very happy with a SNP majority so that it reduces the Labour vote nationally, but as I'm sure your aware Chris there is still a very strong anti-Tory feeling north of the border and this in my opinion is precisely what'll get Labour their majority back...better the devil you know I suppose.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Labour has never had a majority in the Scottish parliament. The proportional voting ensures that, barring miracles, nobody ever will. That's Donald Dewar's bequest to the nationalists: a system that ensures they'll never be able to use the parliament as a platform for breaking up the UK.

It's interesting how people choose to characterise the feeling towards the Tories in Scotland in the way you have. The level of support for the Scottish Conservatives is almost exactly the same as that for the Lib Dems, and yet nobody ever gets fired up and tries to claim there's 'anti-Liberal' feeling in Scotland. ;)

That said, the Tories are never going to form the bulk of an administration in Edinburgh. And to be fair to all concerned, nobody is actually claiming that they ever will. Labour and the SNP are, for the long term, going to be the largest parties at Holyrood. However more than one commentator has suggested there may come a day when a marriage of convenience places an SNP/Tory coalition in power.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Found this thread to be an interesting read.

I agree with the release on compassionate grounds. I don't think politics came into it although the opposition parties in Scotland will regretfully try to make something out of it.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Whilst I understand your viewpoint, what about compassion for the Lockerbie victims' families. I have doubts about the validity of the case against the Libyan, but that should have been dealt with by an appeal (imho).

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I agree, but terminal cancer has scoopered that.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I wonder if in the same way as it did for Ernest Saunders after being jailed for the Guinness shares scandal.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

That's some story.

if that's the case for the Libyan, then there will cries of miracle and a few hospital consultants having their reputations wrecked and politicians kicked oot on their arses. Don't see this as a con job though.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

Gordon Brown finally put his head above the parapet ... but he still managed not to say anything about what he thinks of the decision.

Re: Lockerbie bomber released
 

I thought that was a story about Gordon Brown being able to think, surely not.:D