atheists camp for kids
 

Dawkins sets up kids’ camp to groom atheists


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6591236.ece

well its different but is it a good idea? ie is a bit of God bashing ok at camp..

is it ok for kids to think for themselves.

or is it a bad idea.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Sounds like a lot of fun!

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Sounds good to me.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Well if its OK to brain wash kids at God camps then why not brain wash kids at Atheist camps.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Sounds like a lot of fun for the kids. if my kid wanted to go I'd be quite happy to let them.

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Probably a lot less stressful for them too.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Interesting!

There are a lot of various different faith camps in places like America, so this is a different slant.
My daughter worked at camp 3 consecutive summers in California, and even though they were not religious camps, there were prayers said at the begining of the day.
She was not offened even though she did and does not believe in God.

I love the idea of children having free will to look into stuff personally and not having a religion forced upon them.
This camp may flip that around and actually try to make children believe there is not a God.
It does encourage thoughts on does God exsist or not, but as we have said on previous threads, maybe it is best to let children decide for themselves at an age when they can, and not have anything drilled in to them of either thought path.

My youngest girl has just flown out to Ibiza today, with her Good News Bible in her handbag, so she can read it on the plane trip. Her friends laugh at her! She is 19, never had my faith pushed into her at all. The Bible she is reading is from my days at a born again Christian church. I respect her for checking things out for herself, like I respect my other two for not.
She says she is not sure if God exsists, and wants to read the Bible so she can become more informed.

In the end, it has to be each to their own, but I find the thought of summer camps that encourage kids to not believe, in my personal opinion not a nice idea, as much as a fully fledged Bible bashing camp would be too!

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

A right barrel of laughs.

I can't help thinking this has been a little bit mis-reported. Even Dawkins himself admits he cannot prove there is no God - I don't think he would set up a camp to try to spend a week persuading kids that there isn't one.

I suspect the emphasis will be on the positive benefits of the subjects chosen for teaching, rather than on negative lectures about there being none of this, none of that, none of the other etc.

Even so, I bet I could paint a caricature of the 24 kids that have been signed up for this by their pushy, Guardian-reading parents. And I bet none of them is the most popular kid in their class. :erm:

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2009/06/15.jpg

:D

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

It's not so much about not believing in God. it's about learning to think for yourself, instead of being told what to think or believe.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

What picture would you paint of the other kids that go to the God ones?

I've already read about some kid saying that you will go to hell for going to this camp thing, for not believing in God :(

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

In my view, this lack of tolerance is one of the worst aspects of organised religion.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

are you saying children who choose not to believe in God are unpopular in class?- from my memories of school it was in fact the opposite- the bible bashers where treated as weirdos ;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I was thinking the same thing Gary

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

That in itself should be one of the things taught. you won't go to hell. either because there isn't no hell to go to, or if there is no God. then there can't be a heaven, so there can't be a hell.

Logical :)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

No, I'm saying that children whose parents would send them to philosophy camp in the summer are probably not the most popular children in class. ;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

ah understood ;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Here's my caricature.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

:D

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Breaking news: atheism isn't about God-bashing, that's just Cable Forum.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Fine as long as you don't come bothering me at my front door, I can assure you my dog runs faster than you do :D :LOL:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

He looks like he runs out of breath quite easily, and running isn't his strong point :LOL:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Isn't it funny how dogmatic, almost "religious", some people are about their atheism? ;)

Live and let live - if you want to believe, fine; if you don't, fine.

It's the fanatics and dogmatists at both ends of the spectrum that cause the problems, imho.

btw, I think this camp is a good idea - anything that gets kids outdoors, and teaches them to think independently at the same time, can only be a good thing.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

:clap:

:clap: :clap:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Oh if only DRZ400 was here to witness this :D

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

it is when we get together in secret [but that bits members only;)]

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I think that's a bit unfair. you ban him and use every opportunity to bully him knowing he can't answer back :( :td: :td: :td:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

:clap:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Aw, diddums, did the nasty man say something nasty about your lickle friend? ;)

All he pointed out was, imho, that DRZ400's posts were sometimes on the vitriolic and negative side of the debating spectrum.

btw, how do you know Russ banned him? :confused:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Oh I don't know, I didn't ban him and he can still read this. Still, maybe he'll reregister again send you a PM again ;)

It's a fair point being made though, some militant athiests have attitudes very much like a lot of religious fundamentalists.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Well I await something on his website about this. Channel 4 or 5 once said he was doing research into the effects of Harry Potter on children which was a complete lie.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Grow up :)

No he didn't point out anything :rolleyes:

Maybe he PM'd me :D

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

indeed they do

btw what doe's the P --in pm stand for ?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I don't think he's ever PM'd me.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

He was about to - but got canned. :D

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 ----------

Private messages - which is what they are. Admins on this forum can see every activity a member does on this board - they know who is pm'ing who etc. They just don't know the content of the private message, if this is what you are raising this issue for.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I shouldn't laugh, but that was funny.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

cheers for the info thought it might have changed to public;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Glad to be of some form of entertainment.

But just for the record - The user in question was suspended yesterday for inappropriate behaviour, it was a 1 day suspension. That user then chose to register a second account to evade his 1 day suspension which is a very serious offense and ultimately was permanently banned. So no he was not 'bullied' and I don't want to see any more accusations of such nature or any other post discussing how/why a member was banned, you have your answer.

Back on topic.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

are you suggesting that a British newspaper may have made up this story,surly this doesn't happen , does it;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

My reference to 'bullied' is since the ban, not prior. just wanted to clear that up too Mick :)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

This is all going so off topic......again!

Any proper thoughts on the original posters questions after the link he posted, I for one am interested on others serious view points, even the strong dogmatic ones! ;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Well so far I don't see anything that indicates to me that children at this camp will be allowed to 'think for themselves' as people are putting it. What if a group of them get together and say they've decided there is a God, will they be 'encouraged' to think otherwise?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I think it's a good thing that 'kids' are given this opportunity to think for themselves.
if you go to a God preaching one, you are told to think in the way of being told that God says this and God says that.
this one is where you are told if this is this then does it have to be that, kind of thing.

if anyone has any objections to kids learning to think for themselves in this way, then are they annoyed with it for the wrong reasons?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I think it is great that the kids are taught to be open-minded and enquiring, whilst in the great outdoors - what's not to like.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

How many 'God camps' have you been to where kids aren't encouraged to think for themselves?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Not directly but someone may have fed them a false line. But generally checks and balances don't seem to apply to Richard Dawkins.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

And you know this for a fact, how?

Or is it one of your "assumptions"?

My son went to Scout camps (one of the examples in news article) from age 7 to age 15, and he was never instructed in the way you describe (in fact, he can't remember religion being discussed, except in the fact you should respect all faiths).

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

None.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

So why do you assume it's all brainwashing?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Does Sunday school count?

Lucky him :)

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

I didn't use the term brainwashing.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

If the Sunday School meant you went away for a couple of days for camping and activities, yes - otherwise, no.

But you probably already knew that.:dozey:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

OK there you go, you've just bought yourself some thinking time.

So why do you assume at 'God camp' kids aren't encouraged to think for themselves?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

my kids are grown up now they both went to beavers/scout camps ,but if there was an alternative i would have had no objections to them attending, if and only if it was there wish, i am a great believer in giving kids choices out side my own beliefs/none beliefs ,but as long as there was tents and camp fires i doubt they would really have cared about anything else.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Aside from there being no indication to you that they will be allowed to think for themselves. do you think it's a good thing if they are allowed to think for themselves?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Good old hair-splitting Gary.....:D

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Yes.

Didn't I tell you this before? I'm sure I've told you before. I probably didn't :dozey:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

How about you answer my question first ;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Me and Foreverwar have decided that Sunday school qualifies :)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

The same also applies to children whose parents would send them to a "god camp".

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Answer: I doubt it.
your turn.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

So can we both agree that you've got no reason to assume that at 'God camp' kids aren't encouraged to think for themselves?

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

Well you see I haven't made any assumptions at all so I don't really need to have a 'turn'....do I?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

No, because I went to Sunday school camp.

You said if I answered your question you'd answer mine.
play fair :)

Aside from there being no indication to you that they will be allowed to think for themselves. do you think it's a good thing if they are allowed to think for themselves?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Ok so you're judging each and every 'God camp' in the world on your 'sunday school camp' (amazing we've not heard of this before btw) experiences?

I wouldn't have it any other way, as you'd expect.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Not all of them. just a majority of them.

I have mentioned going to Sunday school before. you should be able to find the references if you use the Search.

I wouldn't say I expect it. but it's good that you think that it's a good thing to let them think for themselves.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

OK which ones do you judge then? Perhaps the ones I might mention? If not what is your criteria for judgement?

You've never mentioned any sort of camp before, curiously.

Why would you not expect it? Have I ever displayed any of the traits of the stereotypical 'overbearing, brain-washing, door-knocking, evangelical christian' that you seem to 'have it in' for?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

A man has freewill to think. thinking doesn't have to be a judgement.
the ones I see on Youtube, the one I experienced as a child.

I didn't mention going to the zoo with them either :rolleyes:

You said "as you'd expect" just because I wouldn't, it don't mean that I think you're a stereotypical 'overbearing, brain-washing, door-knocking, evangelical christian.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Is this the Gary L and Russ b Show??;)


So glad its not ..Heres Lucy!! :)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Hi, Lucy.
what you wearing today? ;) :)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

its turning into another lets get the thread shut down cos it mentions religion show ,pointless bickering as per the norm .

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Do you think your attention would be drawn to the uncontroversial and friendly ones? Just like "Vicar prosecuted for child abuse" makes headlines whereas "Vicar spends 50 years looking after sick an vulnerable children" doesn't?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I watch all types on Youtube, Russ? that's a big assumption to make that I only watch the bad ones :(

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I didn't assume that - I'm suggesting the majority of camps making the media are hardly likely to be positive ones.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

From the actual camp itself - CampQuestUK

a) from the Director's twitter
b) from the web page
I liked this point on their "about us" page, one of the four "Our Purpose" statements -
"Promote respect for others with different viewpoints, values, and beliefs"

And on their FAQ pages, in response to the question - "Are you an anti christian/muslim/religious camp?", they state -
"Not at all.
Camp Quest is often labelled anti-christian/muslim/religious for the affirmation that it is OK not to believe in a god/dess(es). The camp is based on humanist principles and seeks to promote tolerance through the understanding that there are many ideas in the world.
Camp Quest’s aim is to get campers thinking and asking themselves questions, while equiping them with the tools to go off and come to their own conclusions about a wide range of topics.
There is no ‘atheist dogma’ or agenda, but an atmosphere of inquiry is created and the campers are encouraged to discuss ideas of interest to them"

So, not really an atheist camp for kids, then, more of "think about things and come to your own conclusions" camp for kids.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

One religious/atheist thread closes, another opens. :banghead:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

There's not much to discuss really, they state clearly what their intentions for the camp are, and they are being misreported.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

...and sometimes, unfortunately, like buses three come together. Or at least that's what it feels like. :banghead: :)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Actually as far as I'm concerned it's just another one of those threads..the topic is immaterial.:rolleyes:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Why can't we all just love one another.....

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Oh yes another topic that can only lead to being one of those threads when one starts to consider permutations.:rolleyes:

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Is that an invitation?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Love doesn't have to be physical, it can be the meeting of two minds on a higher plane, intellects sparking off each other to create a synergy of ever-growing mental stimulation which can transcend mere physical limitations, which, when the two melded minds can take no more, can lead to a Phalacrocorax aristotelis.;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

For me all this is a bit strange as I see a major role of parenting is to bring children up to learn to think independently and for themselves, ultimately in order to draw their own conclusions about the world.

Do we really need to send children to a camp in order to do this?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

With so many members wouldn't a Phalacrocorax nivalis be more appropriate?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

What ever happened to Scout summer camps?

I think any camp trying to achieve a religious/anti religious goal is a bad idea.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

"Duty to God" is a principle of Scouting, though it is applied differently in various countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

I do know, I was in the Scouts when I was younger, something which I am very grateful for.

So you're telling me every time I attended the Scouts, it was for religious reasons?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

no posted for info only

you posted " I think any camp trying to achieve a religious/anti religious goal is a bad idea."

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Yes, and I didn't attend the scouts for religious reasons. Nor did it have any religious implications on me, so there's nothing wrong with them.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

In all honesty I'd imagine that the vast majority of kids attending this camp will just be happy to be spending a week or two under canvas away from from their parents.
If at the end of the day whilst sitting round a camp-fire a philosophical discussion about "why are we here" crops up that's all to the good in my opinion, they'll each get a chance to chip in and more importantly listen to others viewpoints...surely that's win win for everybody.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

The only camps I got sent to when I was young (between 8 and 10) was run by the South African army and we ran around all day playing wargames....

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Children should be allowed to make their own minds up about religion & God. The problems start when people start to inflict their own beliefs upon their kids.

Keep your religion, & your beliefs to yourself. Live & let live,

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

So if my faith forms my moral outlook on the world, how do I keep that away from my daughter? Part of a parent's job is to do what they think is best for their children so why should I not bring her up in Christianity?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Putting aside that this may be a slight exaggeration on the part of our press i don't believe any camp that kids attend should have any religious connatation be it for or against. I would fully support anything that got kids out and about in a positive way but would dearly love religion to be kept out of people's lives until they are old enough to make their own informed choice as to what if any faith they wanted to follow.

For me faith is a personal thing whether you choose to follow one or not and i don't and never have thought it right for ideological groups to in anyway shape or form influence kids to whatever direction. Let kids be kids, let them have their carefree years without getting dragged into things the so called adults cannot even decide to any reasonable certainty or concensus. Our kids have enough to deal with these days without getting involved in things many older people cannot fully understand or debate rationally or peacefully.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Chicken and egg. If children were taught some thinking skills early on, they would be less likely to grow into adults who base their philosophy on tabloid headlines.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Whether children think for themself and grow up with an open mind is more down to parenting then anything else. I have always taught my kids to follow their own mind first and to think about anything and everything before allowing it to influence them but then i have the luxury of having the time these days to do that and nurture it.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

You can listen to a radio interview about it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ld4w3

about 48 min in

---------- Post added at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

Well the times headline is indeed inaccurate. Dawkins is not involved in the scheme except in that his foundation made a single donation.

http://www.camp-quest.org.uk/media/p...inted-2862009/

Will the article get changed? no. It will just sit there attracting traffic and controversy over nothing.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

So, in summary, in the Times headline "Dawkins sets up kids’ camp to groom atheists", the only accurate part was "kids' camp". :D

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Why do people have such a big issue about parents teaching their kids the religion of their choice? If you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Bhuddist etc and religion plays a part in your life, then surely it's only natural to teach your kids about that religion and influence them into practising it (by your own actions and teachings). If Russ believes Christianity is best for his daughter, what's wrong with him wanting her to grow up a Christian.

There are a lot of parents who wish for their kids to go to university, graduate and get a job. Are they wrong for that? Is that not 'brainwashing'.

When it's religion or lack of everyone is up in arms, but in all honesty, on this forum its often the non religious ones dishing out all the allegations of criticism and poor parenting. As Forever said in an earlier post, why get so worked up. Live and let live.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

Is this the same Dawkins in the animal autopsy programme this week on TV?

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Yes I understand that it is.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Yea, but physical love is better;):)

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------



The Times is getting so like The Sun!;)

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

Inevitably a child is going take on board some of the moral code/world view that their parent/s have, especially when they are very young and impressionable. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with this.

Ultimately as a parent I would hope that I've enabled my children to think independently and come to their own conclusions whatever they may be. Of course I would hope that they are similar to my own but if they are not then that is my problem, not theirs.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

When anti-religionists hear that I (or any other parent doing similar) am bringing my daughter up in Christianity they automatically assume it'll be a strict anti-evolution, anti-science and anti-anything-non-christian upbringing.

Where they get that idea from I have no idea.

This is a Christian country. I belong to that faith. It makes sense that I want what I think is the best for her, therefore she'll have a Christian upbringing. Is she free to learn about other faiths? Of course, I don't want her growing up ignorant of other peoples' beliefs. Will I force her to go to church? No, why would I?

If she choses a different faith (or even atheism) then naturally I'll be disappointed but I'm not going to use force. I don't believe in parents making the decision of faith for you (*cough* Catholicism *cough*). If her heart isn't in it and doesn't make the choice herself (when she is old enough to) then in my eyes she isn't a Christian. If that happens then like I said I'll be disappointed but my hope that she does chose Christ will always be there.

And I think you'll find the majority of Christian families have a similar outlook. It's just the controversial ones that end up on Channel 4 documentaries.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

This is not unique to catholicism and you, by your own admission, are doing the exact same thing to your daughter until "she is old enough to" make her own decisions.

Faith grooming, in any denomination, is neither smart nor clever.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

You really need to wait until you know a little bit more about me before making comments like that. Firstly I mention Catholicism as it's the most common faith that people will have heard of that does the "let the parents decide" thing.

Secondly how you came to the assumption I'll be doing exactly the same is beyond me.

Re: atheists camp for kids
 

What I know about you is that you have "issues" with catholicism due to your own experiences and that you knock / debunk it at every opportunity (see the recent "Lourdes water" thread).

I came to the "assumption" because you stated that you would be advocating her practising a christian ethos until "she is old enough to" make her own decisions.

Fairly straightforward.