China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

I've just got back from a fortnight in China visiting my best mate who now lives and works in Jinan (Shandong Province). I could bore everyone with holiday stories but there is one thing that has shocked me more than everything else, and that is the lack of Freedom of Speech.

My first encounter with censorship was an attempt to access the bbc website- homepage loads up fine, but every link gives Page Cannot Be Displayed as you try to delve into the site. I thought this could just be a proxy/ temporary problem so decided to do some further digging....

Sky News, Google News (excpet Google China), CNN, Reuters, The Times, The Telegraph... all give the same results. It appears someone in China does not want people to hear the news except the way the Chinese Government want it told!

Now my next shock came when I met a student of Rick's [my best mate]. We went out for the day and during the course of the day i found out that Eve was the daughter of the Directing Editor of the local communicist propoganda newspaper- rather a powerful position in the city. I later discovered that the lady in question can have people killed and also that while we had been out she had sent someone to follow us to check that we were treating her daughter well. (nothing like a protective parent!) I dread to think what would have happened if we had done something that her mother didn't like....

The final most shocking discovery was made when i was teaching English to University students. We were discussing various issues that normally start heated threads here on CF, and i was suprised to learn that none of the students had an opinion about anything...

The Chinese High School education does not allow students to think... testing is of facts that are given to them and that is it... no discussion, analysis, evaluation, nothing. We discussed the issue of life after death as i was interested to find out if Chinese view's generally different from English views. But not one of the students had their own opinion, all i heard was "I have been taught that xxx happens when you die."
Me: "So what do you think about what happens?"
Student: "I believe what i have been told."
Me: "Do you have doubts about what you have been told?"
Student: "I should not doubt my teacher because he has more experience than me."

Shocked!

It will be interesting to see what happens when the Olympics go to Beijing in 2008, as it won't be possible for the Government to censor the world media, so people outside China may start forming different opinions about the Chinese way of life...

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Given the size of the population and the (generally agreed) failure of communism, it is probably the only reason the country still functions (very scary mind control). As you say it will be interesting to see what 2008 brings, I have a nasty suspicion that Beijing will be isolated from the rest of the country during the olympics.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

China will never alter it's ways as long as there is a sun in the sky, the country is run with a iron fist and it will come down heavy on anyone who speaks out against the leaders, what makes it worse is we buy stuff from this country and support this axis of evil.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

we all know what happened when people did disagree with the government

http://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/...umanRights.htm

:(

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Given that China is still a totalitarian communist state, I'm surprised that you are shocked..............
__________________

They have opinions but openly telling them to you may be bad for their (and their familys) health.
It's a sign of how far China has come that you were actually able to speak to them without a state security chaperone with you....

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

I was only shocked because it only really hit home when you experience it for yourself.

Next time I teach an English class I will remember not to try and have a debate!!

Another shocker that I forgot to mention is that Homosexuality is illegal- if you are caught "preaching it" then you are arrested. sentence = death.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Good thing you left your pink flowery handbag and dangly earrings at home then! :p:

:Sprint:

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Let's hear it for a country that comes down hard on criminals and doesn't bother about those peksy "Human Rights".

With all that it must be one of the best places in the world to live...!!!
















(Do I *really* need to point out that this is irony...???)

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

We know it's irony graham.......but you are rather taking things to extremes there..... :dozey:

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

I am always surprised that we seemed to reward their past behavior with more and more trade. I don't want to see their largely innocent population in poverty but ever since the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests I think the free thinking world should have put more sanctions on them until they actually understood that they there is a certain level of behaviour that is just not right not matter what your political ideology. Instead we just joined the cue right along with all the other countries for lucrative contracts as soon as that whole episode faded from people's memories. Perhaps the thinking is that when more of the general public in China get richer then they will put up with less and less state control/censorship. That doesn't seem to be happening and the trouble is that, as many have learned in the past, when great unrest is sensed within the populace then nothing brings it all together better than a nice war (cue Taiwan - and anyone else that gets dragged into it).
There ya' go. China in a nutshell :D. Of course I know it is not as simple as all that.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Well my best mate loves it... originally he was going to only stay for a year, then 5 years, now he reckons he may never come back. So it can't be such a bad place to live...

I don't see a problem with coming down hard on criminals, and from what i have seen, the western media exagerates the mal treatment of people as well as the chinese media covers it up...

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Thats exactly what will eventually bring down the communist regime.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Oddly enough, that is what the stance that many people in Asia take when it comes to human rights. Let's focus on developing the country first. Human rights are a luxury that will come with the other luxuries wealth brings.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Not what I meant. I wasn't on about human rights, but about overthrowing Communism.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

How can one country be an axis? Sorry, just musing there for a moment. Fulcrum of evil, possibly.

Anyway. China. Never been a democracy, or anything close to one really - scene of the bloodiest civil war* in history (and, shockingly, the second bloodiest war of any type in history, beating WW1 into *third* place), great cultural and scientific history and described by a friend of mine who spent several weeks there a few years ago as the Land of the Rising Phlegm.

What it isn't, any more, is remotely communist in deed and action - they're doing very nicely out of capitalism, which of course doesn't require democracy in order to function. So a totalitarian capitalist state, then, and one which is shortly going to have a large amount of control over all our lives (the balance of payments debt is getting rather scary, as are the price rises in steel and oil as a result of the explosion of the Chinese economy).

Thanks for the post, Chris. Found it very interesting.

[To pour more oil on troubled flames, Graham's right, there are plenty of countries with strong Daily Mail friendly social policies and none of them are remotely desirable as places to live.]

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion - I recommend Flashman and the Dragon as a primer on it. It shows what happens when a lot of people are brainwashed by a loony who's inspired by a perverted form of a major monotheistic religion...oh, hang on a minute...

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Sorry m8 but it's still communist...link...... etc......
.............wishful thinking doesn't make embarrassing left wing ideologies go away BBking :D

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Hmmmm, my brother works in China for a major western capitalist organisation, selling in to the domestic market. That's not really communism in action. The current administration is very tolerant of capitalist actions by its own and other citizens, albeit often with government involvement (or shareholdings if you prefer)

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Don't forget that little has changed (business-wise) in Hong Kong either. Still one of the most capitalist cities/places in the world.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

It would be embarrassing if I had ever *supported* it, Ramrod, but tanks for the wikipedia link, as it handily supports my argument:

A communist party that is liked by capitalists and disliked by communists is an odd beast, don't you think?

I prefer to judge people by their actions rather than their purported ideology. After all, as we've seen before, merely calling yourself something doesn't mean you are - cf the full name of the German Nazi party (National Socialist German Workers Party, to save you the trouble).

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Whilst I agree that the free market will eventually cause the regime there to fall...

... would that it were so simple!

We have the wealth, so do the Americans, but the human rights are most certainly not a "luxury" that we can take for granted.
__________________

Am I?

Did you ever hear of Chairman Mao's "Hundred Flowers" campaign?

Not long after the "Cultural Revolution" he invited all the intellectuals, teachers and those who had protested against the revolution to put forward their ideas for how things could be better.

Many did.

They were then rounded up and sent to "re-education" camps or simply shot.

Still sure I'm taking things too far?
__________________

In China a "criminal" is anyone who the state doesn't like, be it Tibetan Monks who protest against the illegal occupation of their country and then get beaten up and jailed or practitioners of Falun Gong who are tortured and forced to denounced it as "an evil cult".

Violence is integral to China's campaign against Falun Gong and, as one government official commented, "practitioners who are not beaten generally do not abandon the group." The Washington Post and Amnesty International noted that in 2001 the central Chinese leadership--for the first time in its effort to purge China of Falun Gong--officially sanctioned the systematic use of violence against the group's practitioners. The Washington Post further reported that, according to government sources and Falun Gong practitioners, Chinese officials employ a variety of violent practices, such as beating detainees and shocking them with electric truncheons. Officials also torture detainees with "unbearable physical pressure." For instance, detainees are forced to squat on the floor for days at a time. In addition, Amnesty International has documented the use of electric shock batons to beat practitioners, and a device called the "Di Lao," in which a victim's wrists and feet are "shackled and linked together with crossed steel chains making it nearly impossible to walk or sit down."

Now I don't know where you get the idea of this being "exaggeration", because this is *officially sanctioned* government policy!

As to basic concepts of fair trials and justice, not to mention the presumption of innocence? Forget them. The Chinese leaders certainly do!

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Talking of communism, can anyone name me a communist country which has been successful, not faking success like the USSR etc, but where people genually go without want, and are happy and not controlled by the goverment?

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

And a successful capitalist country while you're at it ;) Of course, this depends on your measures of success.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Bit difficult - Cuba is the one that springs to mind, in that it's stable and there doesn't seem to be much local opposition to the government. It's poor, true, but it's also banned from trading with an economic superpower 90 miles away, which hardly helps. It's hard to untangle the damage caused to countries by having an inefficient system against that caused by economic sanctions imposed because people don't like their governments.

Libya is ostensibly socialist (but in reality an Arab nationalist dictatorship) and standards of living have risen there markedly since sanctions were lifted. However, it's noteworthy that Gaddafi rejected Soviet-style communism as well as western capitalism.

Yugoslavia was quite successful as a country due to tourism, but it can't exactly be claimed as a paragon of peace and tranquility after the last 15 years.

So if you're going to run a country on communist lines, have plenty of natural resources, preferably ones that don't need much intellectual capacity or foreign technology to exploit (like sandy beaches or tobacco), use the fact that you can basically do what you like to build big schemes that stop people having time to realise they're not free, try not to **** the US off (this may be impossible), don't waste money on weapons, because you won't have much money to start with and you'll need it all to bribe people into staying calm and watching them to make sure they do.

I don't think many people on here are going to defend communism as the best way to run a country - I'm certainly not. It's a busted flush, and anti-communist reds-under-the-bed positions are likewise irrelevant these days.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Pretty much what I already suspected, so thanx for that account Chris.

The country is becoming more and more capitalist, but I don't think it is going to bring down the regime. The worst part about China isn't the communism, it is the totalitarianism of it, something communism needs. China is proving that capitalism can thrive under either.

I am not a fan of China at all, and they are one of the countries in this planet I would love to see sorted out, if only some of the people here who complain about such countries would advocate actually doing something about it. I thought it was incredible they were chosen to hold the Olympics. Are all reporters going to be monitored as per usual?

[b]Edit:[b] Incidently, they didn't censor out this forum did they, because you have visited here whilst in China? Seems a bit odd, to censor the BBC and not us. You could follow a link from here to the BBC's news articles?

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

The argument was that, on balance, human rights (at home) will become more of an issue for people when they are relatively wealthy and well educated. Put simply, people will care more about their neighbour being imprisoned without trial when they don't have to worry where they will find their next meal.

I wasn't saying human rights are a luxury we can take for granted. Rather, it starts to matter more when other needs are met. (Mind you, that's little consolation for the person on the receiving end of abuse)

I'm not sure I like the implications, but I think there is some truth in it.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

this forum was not censored... however attempted to following a link to the BBC just resulted in page cannot be displayed...

I do wonder how the censoring is done. I considered proxy servers, but disproved that one. I considered the fact that the whole country might just be one private network behind a firewall, but disproved that. I also considered that certain domain names are blocked, but disproved that as well... now confuddled!

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

I guess through domain filtering. When you click a link here, the Chinese state ISP (I guess that's what it amounts to, even if it appears privately owned), it resolves the domain of the link, and if it is on a list of banned sites, its blocked. But then again, it doesn't explain why you could see the Beeb's front page.

What is the point anyway? If you can't read it from the BBC's own servers, you can just find a mirror somewhere, like on here, key quotes from articles are often quoted in posts. Seems a bit pointless here.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Yeh it does seem a bit pointless... but I guess most Chinese people don't have the inclination to go digging around for news reported in other countries...

or perhaps the government censor everything and come after people who have been looking at news they aren't supposed to be able to see :Sprint: :erm:

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

......and thats the way to bring them down!

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Like you say primitive and, when it comes to it, a bit of a finger in a dam. Bit annoying though as I keep forgetting and sending Beeb links to my brother which he can't access. Wonder if he can access that seditious site, guardian.co.uk though ;)

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

You must remove your imperialistic postings from this forum as you descrate the memory of our beloved leader and the bountiful society that we live in.

Your capitalistic rantings shall pass like breezes in the night, and one day, when the Dragon awakes you will regret your impudence sorely.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/08/17.gifhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/08/17.gifhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/08/17.gifhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/08/17.gifhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/08/17.gif

In all seriousness, you can understand that they don't want their people to create dissent and see things as the western nations do, but they have swung to an extreme. :td:

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Err, makikomi, this is China we're talking about, not North Korea...! :D

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

But they are still a communist party....they are just allowing capitaism to exist in their country....and that will destroy them from within :tu: :) ....anyway, you were cherry picking that link a bit m8.....here is some more from it:
Looks slightly communist to me. :D


I prefer to call a spade a spade


Seen the flag?.......... :D

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

You try to confuse the Dragon with the ramblings of a madman! But your decadent ways shall not sway our commitment to the cause!!!!!!!

:disturbd: :disturbd: :disturbd:

I think I'll have a lie down now.

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Remember Grasshopper: -

"Man who goes to bed with itchy bum, wakes up with smelly finger."

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

And Labour are a Socialist Party.

Next...?!

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Ummm.....

Noeal Edmunds had a programme called "House Party".....

<Raistlin>Get your coat, I'll start the car</Raistlin>

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

In all seriousness, given the Guardian's ideologies and stances on issues, I would be suprised if The Guardian wasn't in charge of the propaganda department. That paper does my head in at the best of times for its Riefenstahl-like reporting feeding the far left. I really try and avoid all papers for news, but reading the Guardian (which I do from time to time, if I can avoid paying for it), makes me feel like I am in a far left indoctrination class.

If the Guardian ever did criticise a communist country, like China, then not only would it alienate a good chunk of its readers but it would just be empty whinging. They'd never make any overtures at trying to solve the problem, merely just complain about it. Kinda like Shami Chakraparti's stance on some of the most terrible countries in the world. "You can't deport people there, they will get tortured. No, no let's not do anything about them or to try and stop it, lets just sit by and watch them do it."

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Well they have enough socialists lutking in the wings.........Next you'll be telling me that Stalin, Lenin et al weren't actually communists either (I can see it now.....'true communism hasen't been implemented anywhere' etc etc.....) :D
__________________

CIA factbook:

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Flippin' eck (Tucker). Gratuitous reference to Grange Hill's golden age for those old enough to remember.

Actually The Guardian is critical of China and has, for example, been active in supporting the Burmese campaign.As for allegations of just whinging, I love that! Of course the Mail is the whingiest paper on the planet, with a vicious agenda. At least The Guardian is, currently at least, big enough to fill a litter tray! And whilst it's left leaning, it's no Communist supporting rag by any means.

And you leave my Shami alone. She's a top gal. Of course Liberty is concerned with UK civil liberties but I bet you a pound to a penny she supports Amnesty who..... ;) (I am, of course, suspecting that you're no fan of Amnesty either mind!)

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

[mod edit Rob C: personal comment removed] it must be a different Guardian that has criticised the Chinese government on Tibet, amongst others and published articles by the notorious comrades Michael Howard and David Aaronovich. It's quite possible for me to read the Grauniad one day and disagree with about half the articles in it. Anyway, it's often stuffed full of Blairites, and you can't call them left wing unless you're standing on the far right. Oh hang on...

Today's headlines with leftie commentary:
Met in trouble over shooting someone dead and then putting out misleading information - cast iron leftie material, except that the same story is plastered all over almost every paper, including yesterday's Mail.
Israel pulls settlers out of Gaza - there isn't a left-wing position here - you can't support the settlers (Zionist fanatics) or Sharon (right-wing warmonger) so the best you can do is report the facts. There's no mention of Palestinian reaction at all.
A-level passes up - points out that there's a problem because people are taking subjects they want to (like RE) rather than what industry would find useful (like science or languages). Siding with the capitalist boss man here?

I have a suspicion that the Guardian would alienate a lot of readers (or provoke stiff letters from retired vicars) if it produced a fawning article about the Chinese leadership. Now, the Times on the other hand...*

I prefer to open my eyes and watch what's really going on, rather than worry about the minutiae of how the PRC organises its government (which, however you dress it up, is an authoritarian dictatorship - the rest is window dressing). It's how it organises its economy that interests me, as it's likely to affect the vast majority of the Earth's population.

Capitalism isn't just existing in their country - it's transforming it. It's a 180 degree about turn from the past, which is why I still contend that China is not a country run on communist lines. You surely don't deny that China is growing explosively at the moment, and I don't think you believe that communist society is the ideal economic base from which to grow so fast, but that's essentially what you're arguing if you maintain that China is a communist country.

*Rupert Murdoch once pulled BBC channels from his Asian satellite channels to appease the censors in Beijing. Is he a communist?

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Lenin maybe, but Stalin...? Unless you mean the communist equality of his purges?!

I sense a slight oxymoron there...!!!

Re: China- Propoganda, Censorship and the "Thought Police"
 

Ahh, you mean that other Stalin then. Who wasn't general secretary & then leader of the Soviet Communist Party, who didn't have Marxist-Lenist theories, didn't defeat Trotsky to become leader, and came up with the idea of collective farming.

And the Purge you say? Authoritarian/totalitarian political opression and state abuse from a communist party? Never! ;)

You must be the greenest person I know mate :tu: If you recycle your goods anywhere near as half as much as your jokes, you're doing the planet a great service.