Legal Obligation?
 

Do Virgin have a legal obligation to inform new customers that they can't even provide the old bottom tier (2Mb) to people who sign up for 20Mb (the top tier in many areas) in certain areas?

Does anyone with any legal expertise know?

And would this obligation extend to advertising? I'm sure we've all seen the "mother of all broadband" adverts which has rubbed salt in to the wounds for many of us.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

They would be obligated to advise if a service wasn't available when you ordered it.

What do you mean by "can't provide" though? Do you mean, not in a cabled area? or can't supply the speed you pay for? Because it is still a contended service, and if you are in an oversubscribed area, then no, they aren't obligated to inform you of this.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

I think they can get away with it due to the "Up to 20mbps"

They could say "Up to 1Gbps" does not mean you are going to get a 1Gbps connection.

Call and say you want it sorted or your cancelling or your bill reduced!

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Up to used to be an advantage to Virgin when telling people that ADSL was only up to


Now they're using it to their own advantage and saying it's not 20MB. it's only up to 20MB.
:)

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

So if I wanted a 20Mb service but they knew they couldn't provide it but instead could only provide me with a 1Mb service at best then they would be obligated to tell me because the service I wanted wasn't available to me at the time I ordered?

So if I wanted a 20Mb service but they knew they couldn't provide it but instead could only provide me with a 1Mb service at best then they would not be obligated to tell me because the service I wanted wasn't available to me at the time I ordered but is a contended service?

I think you see my point!

The "up to" can't be an unlimited get out clause (or can it? Hence my original question). Otherwise zero is technically up to xMb and not providing any broadband service to people who sign up for broadband surely can't be legal.
---------- Post added at 01:34 ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 ----------

I've tried. It's a nightmare. I speak to someone who struggles to understand English and argues with me about switching the modem off and on.

From their point of view, why should they refund when they can make it as difficult as possible for you to even get them to admit there's a problem.

Here's a 20Mb service guv, on lighting fast fibre optic broadband don't you know. What's that? It's only as fast as dial-up? Let me pass you over to my Indian friend, he'll sort it out for you. Indian guy after more time than it's worth finally brings up the UBR stats and says - That's the worst overutilisation I've ever seen sir! There's nothing I can do about it though. That's one for Capacity Management.

Capacity Management are not customer facing and answer to no-one as I've found out to my cost.

This is all a digression however. My original point still stands. They are still signing people up to broadband (and I presume 20Mb) in my area without mentioning the fact that they can't provide the service they are selling (not even the old bottom tier service). Surely that can't be legal? Can anyone with any legal expertise or experience corroborate this?

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

They can and do provide it.

You're signing up to a 20Mbps contended service. This means that your line is capable of 20Mbps, but you may not get that because of high levels of utilisation in your area. Contention is likely around 50:1, that means that there's 49 other people out there that have been sold the same 20Mbps of bandwidth. You can see quite easily why in areas of high utilisation this can cause issues, and if everyone on the service was using it at the same time you'll get a lowly 400Kbps. There's no obligation on VM's part to do anything about it though, because you're still getting what you pay for.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

I thought Ofcom were trying to regulate this so that ISPs had to be more honest and realistic about achievable speeds :confused:

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

VM only have to read something this out below

During peak times 5-11 the speed advertise may vary for information on traffic management please visit virgin website.

So doesnt really help the customer

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

A friend and I had a talk about this situation a few months ago actually. As the law stands, it seems that as long as an ISP can demonstrate that it is trying to give you the speed you pay for, they can in theory legally get away with giving you a mere 0kbps, and doesn't have to give any discounts for failing.

The law could be different here, because hes in Holland, but I suspect its not so very different, and perhaps thats why OFCOM is trying to regulate this better.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Virgin Media are expected to give a reasonable estimate of performance, and if they are likely to not be able to achieve the performance on the tier you are paying for they should offer you the tier closest to your actual performance.

---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

*Snicker* not in many places it isn't ;)

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

They came up with their "Voluntery Code of Practice for Broadband" and basically stopped all regulation. You can no longer complain to the regulator in a meaningful way and are actively discouraged from doing so.

I did a FOI request to get information on what methods Ofcom use to measure compliance with their code... the answer.. None. They have done no checking that ISPs are complying whatsoever. Apparently they intend to do so in the future, but have no idea when.

Currently it's a free for all.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

No..because they can provide all services if stated its available in your area... YOUR meaning is different in the sense of "20mb and only getting 1mb"

If they say they can provide the 20Mb Tier then they can provide you with an up to 20Mb service. As has previously been stated, it is a contended service and their could me many other people sharing your bandwidth (just as it is on ADSL)

No not really :)

As far as I'm aware if you aren't getting anything near the tier of service you pay for, then can offer you a tier closer with the savings that come with it - but are probably not obgliated to do so.

Fair point - but they are a business - and its all about the marketing... Do your research before signing up :)

Its not all like that... at least, not in my experience with them.

Are you trying to find a casing point to make all of VMs departments customer-facing?

How do you know? Have you been to all the houses connected to your UBR and asked them all to do a Speed Test?

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

Hmmmm... I wonder if an FOI request could be done on VM to request which UBRs are oversubscribed and Time-to-Fix dates ;)

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

No, it focuses on performance, if one is getting performance closer to a lower tier according to the code there should be a reasonable expectation to be offered that one instead.



See above, 'up to' isn't good enough. If performance is closer to a lower tier customer should be offered a regrade, just as if a customer has a DSL line that, through noise, drops from 12Mbit sync to 8Mbit at peak times they should be offered an 8Mbit package rather than a >8Mbit one at their discretion.

If they want to claim compliance with the Ofcom guidelines they signed up with they are ;)

It would be interesting data indeed. We'll have to wait until Gordon nationalises cable first though.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

VirginMedia Customer Relations : 01642 642920

http://www.saynoto0870.com/companysearch.php

speak to them!

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

AFAIK, the FoIA only covers public companies and agencies (aka, government run). Virgin Media is not a public company.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

VM offer a 30 day money back guarantee, if you don't get the speed you pay for then you can leave without penalty. If you're outside that then follow the complaints procedure: http://allyours.virginmedia.com/pdf/...ctice_0208.pdf

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

28 days MBG not 30

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Yeah, I am aware of that it was more of a "Wouldn't it be nice if..." kind of question

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

They sell three tiers (or did when I signed up), up to 2Mb, up to 10Mb and up to 20Mb. If I only get up to 2Mb on the up to 20Mb package then they are not able to provide the level of service I signed up for. They can only provide me with the up to 2Mb package.

That's the whole point of this thread. How far can they push the up to and is there a point at which it becomes illegal?

Again, my point. They don't do this unless pushed and even then it's up to the customer to chase, but should they be obligated to do this? Anyone know?

Happened after I signed up so that's not relevant.

Good for you, long may it continue. Doesn't help me much though...

The only people that can fix my problem, I cannot talk to. I've never mentioned any other department, and I can't say I'm bothered about any other dept to be honest. So the answer is no.

I just rang Virgin sales from my mobile and asked what speed I could expect in my area if I signed up for 20Mb (obviously no postcode because I'm still househunting!). Guess the answer. It involved lots affirmatives and plenty of mention of fibre optic broadband. Did you really expect anything else??????? :confused:

The UBR is constantly chronically oversubscribed all the time - in the words of a Virgin Media newsgroup technician "minimal throughput". Why would I need to run speed tests if I've already been told this information? :confused:

You sure do ask a lot of questions!!!

Cheers for that Sloman. I'll give it a go.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

It's clear we need some action from the governent on this. ISPs need to be forced to give a minimum speed to their customers, and it shouldn't be much less than the sold as speed. So for a 20mbit connection, if they ever dip below 18 mbit there should be automatic compensation and penalties.

I'm supposedly on 20mbit from Virgin but it's often below 0.5mbit. After countless emails and phone calls they've finally admitted my area is over subscribed. Their service is a joke, and their ridiculous mother of all broadband adverts should be banned as they clearly are selling something which they cannot deliver.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Oh it's the mother of all broadband alright - they just missed the last part off mother that rhymes with trucker ;)

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

And how exactly, are you going to measure that? If you want a guaranteed level of service then you're looking at the wrong provider, £1000 a month might just get you what you're requesting.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Easy, you work out how much bandwidth an area can sustain, then look at how many subscribers there are. You then assume they are all maxing out a 20mbit connection and see if there is enough bandwidth to keep them happy.

The way ISPs operate is nothing short of criminal. Can you imagine if you bought a TV only to find out it could only give you sound or colour for a few hours a day? Or perhaps a car which could only do 15mph between the hours of 4pm-11pm? But hey, the car would be sold as 'up to 100mph!'.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

I hear what you are saying but both Tvs and cars are sold using different buisness models (by the way I can't get up to my cars top speed i peaks times legally and physically).

Broadband is sold with contention ratios, the only reason you get broadband as cheap as you do is because of this. I have no idea how much it would cost to guarantee a 20Mb connection, but I guess I would be able to afford a few mubnutes per month.

JJ

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Just found this on Enta.nets website

The * means so even a leased line cannot guarantee bandwidth - even uncontended!

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

No company can guarantee a connection outside their core network

The way I see it if Virgin sell you a 20Mbit connection and can prove that you get that speed within the Virgin network then they are providing you the product they sold you.

If however you are on 20Mbit and you get 2Mbit or less within the network, then Virgin would need to look at it and offer compensation as it would not be the product they sold you

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

The trouble is is if you do this you will end up with an over engineered network that is prohibitively expensive. If you think about the domestic wiring in your house each socket is capable of upto 13A in isolation, but the ring main circuit is probably only 32A. As engineers we call this diversity, basically you assume an average demand and then provide protection for the network. In the case of domesitc wiring the protection is the circuit fuse or breaker. For the VM network it is the STM policy. You might not like it, but as AFAIK it is essential if the network providers are to provide a commercially viable service.

Comments ?

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

So basically it boils down to those who are getting the worst service, are subsidising those areas where people can get 20meg all day long?

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

AIUI an unnacceptable level of service would be if you recieve lower service than the level of service of the tarrif below the one you're on.

Complain the the ISPA, then cancel your service and await the call. It's the only way anything happens. You're wasting your breath doing anything else.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Ahh the old common sense arguement, i like it ;)

its a nice way of explaining it..

People also need to realise that high speed broadband isnt a god given right & is not an essential utility, VM is there to make money from a contended service.

There's plenty of suppliers who can give you upto 2mb at lot lower price.

Re: Legal Obligation?
 

Then sit there watching your bank account dwindling to the point where bankruptcy is the only option because not only are your residential customers costing you far more than they are paying, but your leased line customers (who are paying what it costs to provide the service and a bit more) are getting angry because you are giving the residential customers the same service you are giving them at a 20th of the price they are paying.