Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Couldn't find a thread on this already - sorry if there is one

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03..._virgin_media/

Sky has called on the government and regulators to open up Virgin Media's infrastructure to competitors, claiming it will speed roll-out of high speed broadband services.

In its response to Lord Carter's interim Digital Britain Report, Sky said it was "increasingly anomalous" that the cable network is closed to competition while BT's infrastructure is not.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Well of course they want access to the cable network - because theirs in naff :D

I'll rephrase..

Theirs is MORE naff! lol

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I could not see this happening at all Virgin media would fight this all the way tpo the high court and beyond

well if they last that long lol

Far superior Broadband service

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Think ofcom have already discounted any such idea,sky keep floating this idea prmerily in the sky basics saga, where they said they would if vms cable system was opened up,sell their channels direct to vms customer base.

The truth is sky would just use it to muscle in and try to kill any idea of a medium size company competing in any way,Good for sky bad for customers.:(

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

As far as I remember this was bought up before by BT and it was thrown out then. Which ultimately led to them unveilling their own plans of fibre optic cabling.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Could VM be forced to do this?

I was under the impression that BT were compelled to do this as BT was created and run under public ownership. Taxpayers money?

VM has always been a private venture.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

How much of the cable infrustructer is actually fibre optic? Does it run right into our homes?
And is it the same cable which was originally layed back in the mid 90's?
Anyone know?

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

This is not a bad idea, don't forget, Sky already have Tv channels running on the cable network via VM and other cable companies, so l cannot see any problems, and they could be even better.

Don't forget also, that we already have water, gas, and electricity coming through the same pipes, and we are already changing companies, so why not Sky on the cable network.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Because the pipes are owned by the National Grid / Transco and not by the providors of your gas/elec. They are simply a delivery agent.
VM own the 'pipes' and would not want to share as it would be to the detriment of their own business.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

VM's network is fibre as far as the big cabinets that serve whole areas of a town; these are called nodes. From the node to the local street cabinets is coaxial cable, from the street cabinets to the subscribers' houses is coaxial cable.

Sky is just playing cheeky games with VM, as is their way. You would have thought, after being ordered to sell its shares in ITV and performing a major u-turn over the Sky Basics channels, they would be a little more circumspect. But no. Idiots.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I don't see why VM couldn't be forced to do this.
My Gas supply pipework was installed by Elf Gas so they own it. I don't pay Elf for my gas though as I have used my right to go else where. I do, however, have to pay an additional fee via my supplier for them to "use" Elf's pipework.
The same could (and should) apply to VM. All the other utility suppliers share networks so why shouldn't telecomms share their fibre networks?

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

It is fiber up to a big cabinet somewhere near your house and then co-ax past that

Some of it probably is - but as with everything it gets replaced when needed

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

If there was a national company to rival VM on "their" network, it would indeed open up competition. I for one would LOVE to see Sky put out a 10Mbit service with a high upstream, proper hardware in the exchanges, up to date CMTS's, and see how Virgin Media fare after Sky take the bulk of their customers!

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Always nice when somebody wishes a company to go under :erm:

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Or indeed how their customers fare when sky having sucessfully shut down the opposition then raise the prices without much fear of customers leaving. And please do not say you could go to bt, as where i live the best they can offer is 1.5 mg which is pathetic cable broadband really is the only game in town.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

What we are talking about here is one private company - Sky - wanting to the government to force another private company - VM - to open their network up because Sky don't want to fork out the money to lay their own cables!

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

This sounds OK as long as they pay their share of the cost's that exist. Part of the 6 Billion that the network cost. I see nothing wrong with that. They wouldn't do that.
George.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

They already do that in the case of ADSL because they use the telephone cables BT put to the home, only recently have they enabled LLU in exchanges so they don't have to use BT's gear.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Actually taxpayers paid for the BT network, that was until it was privatised in the 80s

Virgin's network has been completely privately financed from day one

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Yes, but still, it's Sky using somebody elses network. The fact they want to use VM's cable network, and nobody else does, makes me wonder what their actual perogative is!

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Actually I bet many ISPs would love to use VM's network, they just know it's not going to happen.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

It could go two ways really if it did open up the companies would have to pay VM making upgrades easier or it could just overload the network to breaking point.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

AOL did, they had a wholesale deal with ntl (in days of old), but it never attracted that much business.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

??:confused: :shocked:

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

There has never been any CABLE competition were Ive lived normaly the councils Will reject any offer out right as each council has already SOLD of the Rights to lay cable already.
NTL and Telewest Did not install the cable in most areas other Private companies did as they PAYED the councils at the time for the rights to do so.
For example
Cornwall & Devon were sold to Eurobell
Dorset was Cable and Wireless.
Each of these were then sold to ether Telewest or NTL.
Some councils have again agreed to sell some companies the right to supply REAL Fibre To The Home (FTTH) connections as it no longer needs the roads to be dug up. Private Apartment blocks have always had the option to have another ISP when being built but TOWN wide is normaly blocked by councils.
Dundee and Bournemouth (yes notice were I Live) are going Town wide even if it takes 4 years to get it done ;) .
Then there will be Town wide Cable competition..then in 2016 when BT joins Fibrecity vs Virgin with the User having a real option to switch every 12-18 months...

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

so what you're saying is because BT was previously owned by the tax payer it is a different case? ok the tax payer financed the building up of the BT network but when it was privatised the money paid for the shares returned that finance back to the tax payer - or are you saying the BT share issue was done on the condition that it didn't include the core network? or are you saying the BT share issue didn't fully compensate the tax payer for the value of the network?

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

yes that is exactly right

But the network still exceeds that which a private company could or would choose to finance - which is why even now BT is considered to have an unfair advantage, and the whole reason by BT has been forced to open the network up to competition.

All the previous cable companies spent billions of pounds and decades building a network. Yes there may have been a licences from Government but the rest was private cash.

It doesn't matter if the taxpayer was full compensated or not or under what conditions the share issue was exercised.

Everywhere Virgin goes, BT goes. Sky can already put itself in any exchange it likes yet it doesn't

News International probably has the money to buy Virgin if it wanted - yet it doesn't

The only reason Sky are trying to do this is to gain access to Virgin's network and customer base on the cheap and without having to do the work

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I hope that Sky can buy out virgin media so Sky will bring more HD channels for all cable customers and scrap the STM on all packages as as "truely unlimited and no fair use policy at all and no traffic management on cable".

I think why not ?? Let sky join the cable too.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I seriously hope you're joking.

VM may not be perfect, but neither are Sky, and handing Sky a complete monopoly over the pay tv market would be just about the worst thing I could think of.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

why doesn't it matter? the taxpayer sold BT and got billions of dosh and in exchange gave BT to the stock market. you now think BT is a special case compared to Virgin because Virgin was never publicly owned. there is no logic in your argument unless BT is currently still nationalised in which case your argument would be 100% valid.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

No I'm saying BT is a special case because of the network it has - that reaches to every house in the UK.

That is why it got opened up to others - not because other companies couldn't be bothered to spend the cash on their own network but because no private network will ever reach as far as one built by the state

---------- Post added at 01:36 ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 ----------

And again I point out that because Sky can access every BT exchange means they can go everywhere Virgin can get to

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the areas where Sky have put their LLU equipment is also where Virgin cable operates

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Haven't Sky called for this to happen before?

It's pure posturing on their part. It would be amusing for VM to actually call their bluff and say 'go on then'. Sky know *nothing* about the cable infrastructure and the fractured nature of UK cable would probably make them run away and hide.

Cable in the UK is saddled with billions in debt because they built a second network. This was a bold move the likes of which are normally not made in this country, usually because the almighty dollar outweighs potential benefits to people. No cash from the public purse was used so VM have every right to tell Sky to go and jump.

If they even officially respond.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Of course BT was a special case.

Yes BT was privatised, but it was privatised as a monopoloy, with only Mercury as any kind of competition.

Therefore, to de-monopolise (if that is indeed a word) BT had to open up its access network. BT even formed a separate company to manage this, Open Reach.

Now there are lots of telcos/ISPs that have they're own backhaul networks but need to utilise the BT access network to reach the subscribers and therefore give the subscriber the choice.

VM has built a good percentage of it's own Access Network and therefore doesn't need to use BTs in those areas, but does use BT in where it doesn't have its own network.

If VM opens up its network (which it wont) it should be their own choice not OFCOMS directive.

Now other network providors such as Fibrecity are on the scene providing fibre access networks for hire.

Sky are just doing what Sky do, trying to undermine their competition

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I think there's a business opportunity for VM to reach a greater section of the population. For every kilometre of cable infrastructure that $ky lay in an uncabled area (that VM also get access to) they get access to a kilometere of VM's structure. Seems fair but I suspect not part of Sky's intentions. ;)

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

If sky want to have virgin cable - they will get it anyway !

If virgin take sky to court, and it will be sky to win head down easy !

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Take them to court for what?

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

VM seem to be doing OK against Sky on the legal front :erm:

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Er, take to court? On what grounds.

I think the monopolies and mergers commission would have something to say about Sky buying Virgin.

It would also be very bad for competition whether Sky had access to the cable network or if they owned it.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Absolutely. Sky has been told to sell its stake in ITV (and, when it gives up moaning and trying to appeal, will have to do so at a massive financial loss seeing as their shares have nosedived since they bought them), and Sky had to come crawling back to Virgin with a new deal over the Sky Basics.

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

Indeed. If Sky aren't allowed to hold 17% of ITV on competition grounds, they'll never be allowed to buy Virgin Media.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

As has been previously mentioned, VM in previous form have opened up their network & it was still open during the first few months of being branded VM, AOL provided cable broadband, via an AOL branded ambit 200.

AOL billed customers, provided 1st line support, VM\NTL provided 2nd Line support & engineer's if needed, as long as the fault was not the modem, if it was, AOL were to send the modem out by post to the customer.

At its close there were very few customers left with AOL taking their cable service, & the speeds that AOL where offering had not increased at the same pace as NTL\VM upgrades.

There is a big possibility this could happen again, 3rd party ISP using the cable service, but it will be very closely tied to the current VM structure etc, as this could a nice cash cow for VM when times are hard & they need an injection of cash.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

It could happen again, but the AOL deal was a purely commercial arrangement between them and NTL. What Sky is calling for here is a change in the law that would force Virgin Media to become an open-access carrier of services provided by third parties, similar to BT.

NTL apparently made a pile of cash out of the AOL deal by asking a very high price for access to its network. They probably also managed to reach a good number of customers who weren't turned on by the NTL brand but were prepared to get their cable broadband from AOL.

Whatever the case, NTL did this because NTL decided to, on the basis that it would be good for NTL.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Forget it,it will not happen in the UK, Virgin Media do not cover 90% of the UK, there are still 2 other cable franchises both independently owned and not all of the Virgin Media network is in use,some of it like on the Clippers Quay estate in the London Docklands has been ceased and NTL replaced it with a Communal Aerial system. Meanwhile the redundant grey/green junction boxes in the street remain and are disused and are falling into a bad state of disrepair.

Furthermore, it would be like forcing Marks and Spencers to sell Morrisons own brand products, Virgin Media is a privately owned business and it should be entitled to sell and offer what it likes as well as have the decision to say who can use there network and who cant.

However, on the other hand, I think Virgin Media and other cable companies should be forced to make cable TV services available to every property in the areas it operates in whether its Analogue or Digital. Because Freeview digital/Analogue reception is not 100% perfect and because not everyone can get satellite and because not all landlords allow aerials and dishes, Cable TV should be accessible upon request in the areas where Cable TV exists. At the moment there is this fiasco of 1 side of the street being able to get Cable whilst the other side and the street round the corner can't get it or the network has been deactivated.

Furthermore, BT should be stopped at restricting the development of Virgin Media's network in the Westminster and Milton Keynes areas as its the customer and local residents and businesses which are suffering. BT is leasing its cables,street cabinets and maintainance to Virgin Media in those areas for a very large sum, however BT is not prepared to foot the bill for upgrading the network to enable Digital TV or Broadband. NTL began offering broadband to 2 thirds of Westminster over the Cable network.

As BT has to follow universal service terms, the same rules should apply for its C.A.T.V network, it currently upgrades its network for ADSL access for others to use,so why not its Cable network?

Virgin Media may also want to consider taking on the Aberdeen Cable Network infrastructure, there is a problem with Digital Freeview in that area and Broadband internet is terrible. Atlantic Telecom,the previous owners of the Cable network and Wirefree Radio communications in that area, sold its UK operations to Carphone warehouse group(Opal Telecom) in 2001 and the Cable network was abandoned, the cable network in Aberdeen offered Analogue Cable TV,it had no telephone network. Much of it is still intact and it was estimated back in 1999 by Atlantic Telecom,that it would cost around £60 to £70 Million to upgrade to offer Digital TV and High Speed Cable Broadband. It is estimated that it will cost £50 Million per to expand Virgin Media's Cable Network to 100,000 new properties, so it would make sense to use the existing ducts and lease the current BT ducts similar to how Atlantic did.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Virgin Media is the mother of all broadband for sure

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Although I think its all hot air from Murdoch, it does raise an interesting point. If BT had to open up their network because it was built with public money, then why not Virgin Media?
Go back to the beginning and you'll find plenty of public money pumped in to NYNEX, United Artists, Bell Cable Media etc etc

Just a thought!!

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

If anyone seriously thinks the regulators however weak they are (very) will allow sky to take over virgin medias network.

Then i would suggest those people also believe in the tooth fairey.:erm:

Its just not going to happen the largest competitor to sky (as regards the tv,bb) being taken over by sky get real please.:)

---------- Post added at 08:45 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

The only problem i can see with your point being, if public money did get invested originally, and i am not sure it did,as the cable laying in our area seemed to be financed from money abroad.

But even if public money were used, do virgin media not have to pay it back which is a very large part of the reason they are in so much debt? No money has been given freely out of the public purse for the network it all has to be paid back. So as such, unlike bt which was nationalised for many years before privatisation,public money has not as such been used for cables infrastructure.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

There's some confusion here as to why BT were compelled by Ofcom to open up their networks to competitors.

Ofcom wanted competition in the provision of broadband services. Other networks had built their own network backbones, but BT still had the "last mile" - the bit that connects the backbone to your house. This was a monopoly.

Ofcom gave BT a choice - either "unbundle" the last mile or allow the other networks to use the last mile. BT was unable to unbundle the last mile in the time Ofcom wanted, so BT had to let the other providers use the BT last mile.

This is why Virgin and Sky (and others) can offer broadband and phone services to everyone BT can.

It's been pretty successful - there are lots of companies that offer a range of services and BT has a profitable company (Open Reach) providing the services. Broadly a win, win.

Ofcom are unlikely to compel VM to open their network to Sky because first, VM built their own network of fibre and second, Sky is the dominate player in this market. And third - there's no restriction on where you can put a satellite - everyone could have access to Sky if they wish - VM don't have a monopoly on access to customers.

This is Sky being cheeky and trying to change the agenda and keep pressure up on VM.

You can normally tell how successful a competitor is by how much effort Sky will go to to undermine that competitor. I think the ITV share purchase, the spat about the cost of Sky channels to VM and this sort of thing shows you that Sky believe VM might actually get their act together and offer decent competition to Sky.

I've been a cable customer since NTL laid cable in my road in 1997 and they have never looked stronger in terms of customer offerings. They could do things a bit quicker (took them *ages* for V+ and it's taking them *ages* for more HD channels), but I think they will become a force to be reckoned with in 2 to 3 years time.

And Sky know that!

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Hands up who actually read the article in full, looking at this thread it appears not many.

Mandating access to ducting is something that both Ofcom and the European telco regulator are strongly considering. This doesn't just apply to BT and other incumbent telcos but to cable companies as well.

It's unlikely that VM will be forced to open their cable network imminently, however the ducting, well, that's a very different thing.

EDIT: Just to clarify, that VM was primarily built using private money and BT's ducting largely public money means precisely nothing for mandatory access to ducting for these purposes.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

As long as VM can charge a premium, I don't see the problem.

Good luck in some areas though, the duct network is stuffed full of cables.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

perhaps vm should ask for access to sky satellites. as sky are so interested in sharing this would mean vm could start selling dishes and receivers ,every ones a winner ;)

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Sky don't own satellites. They lease Transponders (or space on transponders) on the Astra satellites from SES-Astra.

As such, if Virgin wanted to lease space on those satellites, they could.

I am not even sure if Sky own their own satellite base stations. I think they might be owned/operated by other companies (including BT)

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

i honestly had no idea of that ,that's really interesting :tu:

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Sky do own part of the uplink infrastructure, which is partly why they have been able to delay the launch of new channels on the Freesat service.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Fair enough.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

We should be able to get Virgin Media satellite dishes if Virgin has to share its own network. Whats good for one should be good for the other.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

Good to see you read the thread before you posted, especially this page.

---------- Post added at 20:46 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

It won't be a premium it'd be a fair price reflecting the cost of the investment and its' expected life.

For sure in some areas the ducts would be full, all part of the fun.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?source...05686&t=h&z=18

Sky's main uplink station in Chilworth, Hampshire.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I did read the thread just had an oppinion on this page broadbandings! I dont post often just sit in the background i bored lately.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I refer you to my previous post:

Put simply, if Virgin wanted to launch their own satellite service, it is unlikely that Sky would be able to stop them. OK, so VM may still have to apply for licences, but they would be able to do it.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

AFAIK the only licence they would need would be a licence to broadcast an EPG to the UK, which they would get from OFCOM.

It's all a red herring though. There's no room for another paid-for satellite provider in the UK because Sky has it all sewn up. The only satellite service that might dent Sky is Freesat, which you don't pay for. Virgin is a commercial company that needs to turn a profit, and it wouldn't find one in satellites.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I was just making the point that there are no legal or technical barriers to Virgin running their own satellite service.. Doesn't mean it's viable for them to do it.

Re: Sky calls for access to cable network
 

I can tell you the problem sky have.

Sky want to rollout a proper VOD type service, the sattelite platform is inadequate for this, adsl 'can' be adequate if the line is good enough. The majority of lines are not so rules out a mass rollout over adsl.

Sky have been trialling FTTC believe it or not, but unsurprisingly have not done any kind of rollout.

Renting infrastructure of VM could suit sky but as far as VM are concerned its a 50/50 for them, they will make profits from selling services to sky but at the same time they helping their main competitor.

Now BT are initiating a very slow FTTC rollout starting this year, this rollout will be wholesaled and I believe isps will have 2 options from what I have been told elsewhere.

(a) rent bandwidth directly of BT wholesale in a datastream type variant, so BT would control the connection termination point and after that handover to the isp.
(b) sub loop unbundling so basically the isp have their own equipment in the cabinet, I assume they would then need to either rent fibre of openreach or get their own fibre to the street cabinet (expensive). sub loop unbundling is like what sky do now with LLU but I expect a lot more expensive in terms of deployment costs.

I do actually agree with sky, the problem with broadband in the country at the moment is although at retail we have tons of competion (too much of it), the wholesale level is all monopolised. We have VM who dont wholesale and BT who have no competition in over 50% of their coverage. This is leading to a very slow local loop investment from BT.