The existence of God
 

I'm not a deeply religious person, but I read a good story and wondered how others would take it. Forgive my ignorance if this is a well known story, but I'd not heard it before:

A man went to a barbershop to have his haircut and his beard trimmed.

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they
eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out
in the street to realize that, God doesn't exist. Tell me; if God exists,
would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a
loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left
the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long,
stringy, dirty hair and untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The
customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and he said to the
barber:

"You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a
barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like
that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to
me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for
help.

That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

I can see the point of the man who had his beard cut, but does this story not miss the point that the barber is only a man. whereas God is seen as omnipresent / omnipotent?

Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?

Re: The existance of God
 

/runs away to paint the bedroom

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lol

Re: The existance of God
 

........I'm gonna sit this one out :angel::D

(sorry Bender, I just don't have the energy for another one of these):)

Re: The existance of God
 

:D

Seriously, I am off upstairs with a paint brush right now. I'm happy to come back and have a go at this later though. In the meantime I can see the usual suspects circling, so I'll leave you all to it for now ... :wavey:

Re: The existance of God
 

you would need to go right back to the beginning when god gave man free will

Re: The existance of God
 

Been :banghead: answered :banghead: countless :banghead: times :banghead: on :banghead: CF :banghead: in :banghead: the :banghead: past!!

Re: The existance of God
 

You've kind of answered your own question.....

.....if God existed he wouldn't allow anybody to start any more threads on Cable Forum about Religion :D :D

Re: The existance of God
 

OMG !! :D

(Well someone had to say it :dozey: )

Re: The existance of God
 

ha! I see... I take it this one is a bone of contention here? I am aware there are some very religious people who post here, and not being religious myself (though I believe there is something greater than ourselves out there somewhere), I just wanted to see how faith defends such predicaments. in a way, there is logic on both sides of the fence here.

Re: The existance of God
 

The story would suggest that the religious are free from disease and suffering. Is this true?

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I suffer these types of threads a lot so I'd say the answer might be no....

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wisdom appears in many guises :D

Re: The existance of God
 

I think it shows people find what they want to see in the story ;)

What's the old joke? - show a plumber a problem, and it will be a plumbing problem.

Likewise, I believe that most people will find in that "story" something that reinforces their existing viewpoint (imho). :angel:

Re: The existance of God
 

You have been a member here since 2003 and NOW you ask this question...:erm:

Re: The existance of God
 

It was mentioned that he hadn't heard this story before, why not?

Re: The existance of God
 

Faith has never depended on logic, or having to defend itself against straw-man loaded questions (again, imho). ;)

Re: The existance of God
 

Why don't you read what I posted..and what I quoted?:rolleyes:

Re: The existance of God
 

I'm sure that's true but the only opinion it has formed for me is that the story is flawed. And that couldn't have been my opinion before since I didn't know the story.

And I normally enjoy parables, Jesus brand or any other.

Re: The existance of God
 

well, not really being religious, I tend to stay away from the religious threads, as I don;t really have anything to offer them.

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------

that is a very good point.

Re: The existance of God
 

I did, you asked why bring it up now.... considering he has only just read this story it would be impossible to bring this up before he had read it..... :rolleyes:

Re: The existance of God
 

you need not suffer this one if you don't want to, although any input regarding the topic is appreciated.

Re: The existance of God
 

I was referring to the fact he seems to think it's a new bone of contention when in fact it's the same damned question that is repeatedly addressed in EVERY religious thread we have ever had on CF..which as he has been a member for the last 5 years he should be aware exactly what he is asking..

Now are you clear as to WHAT I MEANT?:rolleyes:

Re: The existance of God
 

Being an admin means I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing which threads to look at.

Re: input.

I'm not going to give any for 2 reasons: firstly as I said earlier, the answers to the questions you ask have been answered hundreds of time in the past. Secondly no-one is ever satisfied with their question because another will always follow. And another and another etc and a lot of questions are not there to be answered, they will be thinly disguised digs aimed to mock.

If you want a clue, first of all research the fallacies and misconceptions in that story you've posted and also in the subsequent questions. Start at www.allaboutgod.com

Re: The existance of God
 

with all due respect maggy, if you don't want to be involved in the posting and have nothing constructive to add to the debate, might I suggest you focus your efforts on another thread. there's no need to shout at me though other members.

Re: The existance of God
 

Ah but unlike you I'm not sitting on the fence..and I'm wondering if you really are that naive and truly asking because you have suddenly had an Epiphany or because you just want to wind up the usual suspects?I'm questioning your motives..as is my right.

Re: The existance of God
 

So why not actually say that rather than expect a level of clairvoyance I do not possess, bones nor contention were posted in the original thread :rolleyes:

Ultimately I agree any arguement regarding religion tends to result in a no win for anyone. Does this mean that the topic should not be discussed?

I would compare to parliament, in the past 250 years or so, many debates have been had and the same ones countless times....

No one is forced to post, unless a moderating decision is required of course.

Re: The existance of God
 

With all due respect my original question was not aimed at you...And why should those of faith have to continually have to answer the same damned question? Which so often as Russ says descend into the sly digs and abusive comments about their beliefs.I'm nt saying that you or Bender WILL do this but you can be ceratin that there are those on CF who will inevitably do so.

Re: The existance of God
 

I would have thought my motives were clear in my original post, as I did quite clearly label them. now that you have your answer, you need not continue with your rather obnoxious manner. again, if you have nothing further to contribute that will be constructive, I see no reason for you to post. kindly either say your part that is relevent to the topic, or just read. there is no need to start throwing your weight around. this story actually caught my attention and did actually make me think. i was merely wondering what others thought... as is my right.

Re: The existance of God
 

I've every right to give my opinions in this or any other thread..as forcefully as I care to provided I'm not rude or abusive...

Re: The existance of God
 

and what original question was that? please ask me and I will endevour to answer you.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------

shame that doesn't appear to apply to everyone at times, in my personal opinion. how come my right to ask about religion seems to be a major issue that is fought off and stubbed out? where are my rights here? I just want to hear what others have to say about this particular story and the questions it poses. but I suppose now the thread will just get closed, because someone doesn't like the questions being asked.

please can we get back on topic.

Re: The existance of God
 

Was going to say the same thing.

If you want those questions answered, you'll find what you're looking for, and more, here.

Re: The existance of God
 

Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod! ;)


(posting in bold..... :D)

Re: The existance of God
 

Carry on..Just remember that Russ and Chris have been asked this type of question many times before and in every format possible which I'm perfectly sure you are are aware of as a long time member of this site.

It might be nice if the usual suspects could forbear from sidewise sniping at them because they are people of faith and just accept them as they are...

And I will cease to get fired up on their behalf...;)

Re: The existance of God
 

hmm well it depends on whether you have a bit of time on your hands ;) ow i answer

but short version

some one challenged god right to rule and another couldnt keep to a simple rule

that started the problems we have

then some one challenged no one would follow god if they had free will

now this could be answered in two ways

1 being all powerful he could get rid of all those questioning his will

or

2 he could see if those given free will would follow him

the later from what my religion teaches was the choice

later

some person said the only reason some follow you is because you look after them

this led to another of those choices leave things as they were or see if those with free will would follow no mater what

so the challenge was accepted man was left to follow god if he wished with no help

while mankind was allowed to try and govern themselves until the end of this test and make thier own choices over who to follow

those who don't believe in a god will say if there was a god there would be no suffering but then there would be no free will

who would choose to suffer while everything was provided by god ?

nothing is foreordained the choices are ours god doesnt call people life just happens based on our choices good or bad for the time being

just to point out before the committed scientist go for me ( got my tin hat already ;) )

my religion accepts the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years old that dinosaurs existed that it took more than 6 literal days to make the earth and what is now in it ;)

and i am all for natural selection !

i am just running by the main points that my religion believes in as a answer to why pain and suffering still exist :)

Re: The existance of God
 

is bold another rule only applicable to some now? :rolleyes:

Re: The existance of God
 

Smiley alert.......:D

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pre-emptive strike I'd say :)

For myself I have family whom are deeply religious and can only explain in terms that escape me.... You either have faith or you don't and you can't feign faith.

I believe that generally you are either brought up to believe or a life changing event encourages a spark of belief which grows into something bigger like the love for a friend.

Maybe I'll never understand but for myself and others like myself I'd like to.

The best understanding that I can come to is to liken the faith that a religious person has to the faith a child might have that their mum will pick them up from pre-school every day.

Re: The existance of God
 

@ rogermevans

sorry, i mean:

@ rogermevans

thank you. at least someone has the decency and integrity to post something that actually tries to explain rather than exterminate. as I say, I am not a religious person to the extent that I follow a church or 'God' as such. please forgive my ignorance, it is not intentional. what you say is very interesting, and indeed answers and puts forward more questions.

I would read that as saying, to an extent, that those who chose to follow God would not be sufferers of disease and famine (and other such nasties), yet obviosuly we know they do. if these people choose to follow God, why are they not exempt from these things?

and I agree life does just happen. we make our own paths, but do they all end in the same outcomes? (and I'm not talking about being 6 feet under!)

also, when does this test end? what is the sign that says the test is over?

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------

"mother is the word for 'God' on the lips and hearts of all children" ~the crow

Re: The existance of God
 

The painting's done. :) Now, let me see if I can address a couple of the points here.

First thing to say about this is that the story is offered as a simple illustration of a single point, rather than as a complete exploration of the entirety of Christian theology. It's like a parable, the sort of story Jesus used to use to illustrate his sermons. The key to understanding these sorts of things is not to try to load symbolic meaning onto elements of the story that weren't intended to carry it, but are simply there to make the story possible.

You're right, if the barber was God he would have had a different perspective. But that's not necessary for the story to function. The simple point of the story is to say that suffering in the world is due to humankind's unwillingness for it to be dealt with according to God's expertise, even though that expertise is available.

The tramp in this story is more akin to the race as a whole, rather than any individual person. While there are people in the world who don't submit to God, there will always be those who seek to aggrandise themselves at the expense of others, and hence there will always be suffering.

Your first statement assumes that conceptually, there can only be a God if he (she/it if you like) acts the way you think he should. Your second statement accepts as a given the Christian beliefs about God's loving and forgiving nature whilst at the same time ignoring the Christian beliefs about his just nature. If you indulge in pick'n'mix theology you're bound to end up with some strange flavour combinations. ;)

How am I doing so far?

Re: The existance of God
 

you're doing well - thought provoking and well explained. I think it's becoming clear that my questions are simply down to my own naivety in regards to religion. you're quite right that pick'n'mix does lead to a hash of flavours. perhaps religion is something that should not be taken in a literal sense.

I just find it difficult to understand how faith drives people. I've heard people say "if i follow God and there isn't one at the end of it, I've not really lost anything. If i follow God and there is one, I gain everything.", but I'm not so sure. religion (how should I say this?) 'encourages' people to live their lives in a certain way - according to certain rules. social morals are built around these rules and those who go against them could end up in jail. for example, were society not to frown upon hurting another physically who had done harm to either yourself or family member / friend, I'm sure there would be a lot more injured people out there!

So this makes me wonder if religion was really a way of dressing up a set of rules and then placing the onus on the individual with the fear that if they did not follow these rules, God would not accept them. something which we obviously cannot prove either way. As our scientific understanding of the world progresses, we have far fewer 'miracles' as we know how things work a lot better. this onbviously leads society to lose it's faith in religion as those things the churches used to make people believe are explained away one by one.

so where does this leave society and the church. is there actually a benefit from devoting or not? and why do so many people stll believe God exists when we now have answers to so many 'miracles'?

On the flip side, would you agree that faith has been lost due to our advancement as a race and could it eventually decline to a point that religion is merely a cult establishment? what effect would this have on the way we govern ourselves in respect to laws and morals?

Re: The existance of God
 

First hows the painting look, this time of night and not so good light you might find bits you've missed tomorrow in daylight :D

As to the other bit very well, comes accross like you have patiently (avoiding bold) explained this countless times and will do countless more times ;)

You paint the concept of god in a very human like manner, e.g. with many qualities, one of which is forgiveness but there are many other facets.

why is God presented with human like qualities....

Though I find this interesting and as a logical, rational and physical being the simplest solution seems to be a religious person has faith that god exists (In whatever form) whilst a non believer should simply claim faith that a god does not exist. It is all a mad accident of atoms and molecules over countless years. Then we just have to accept each other.

For those on the fence, I believe that most religious circles subscribe to the idea that it is never too late to find god, if that is on your deathbed then so be it.

Re: The existance of God
 

the end of the test is at an appointed time that know one but god knows for the same reason of the no extra help in that if a time was know those who believed but didn't want to follow the rules set down for believers could do as they wished until just before the appointed time then jump back into the fold just in time ( hardly fair ;) lol )

though the period it would come in is foretold at mathew 24 though many would say that the signs there could be put as have happened many times in the past we beive that they are being fulfilled now but that doesnt mean its in going to happen soon ;)

as to those following god not suffering we don't see it that way though we would say that our way may lead to a happier life even now , we do not claim that it is because god is helping us other than by the instructions we follow ,or making things easier for us now other than we tend to try to avoid situations that could cause us problems but that is still our choice not intervention from above

quote
Ecclesiastes 9:11

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all.
unquote

Re: The existence of God
 

Nor am I, on that basis. What you're describing there isn't really faith, it's fire insurance. The Christian life is one of commitment, discipleship, submission, worship and relationship. You can't have any of those things to any meaninful degree if all you're doing is hedging against the possibility of an afterlife.

Quite true. God, through both Moses in the Old Testament and through Jesus in the New, has made clear the rules he expects his people to live by, for the best interests of all. But that's not the full extent of what he has said; it's only part of it.

It's a tempting conclusion, but one that doesn't stack up because of all the inconvenient things the Bible has to say about the servant nature a true leader is supposed to have. Any self-respecting despot, who wanted a religion created for him to help him control the masses, would have had the priests put to the sword and then employed others to come up with better rules that didn't require quite so much selfless living and personal sacrifice. Actually, that happened, throughout Bible history. And yet, somehow, we still have the Bible, in all its inconvenient glory.

I think it depends on what you define as a miracle. The Bible never calls the stars or the seasons, or the sun coming up in the morning, a miracle, although its writers acknowledged they were mysteries of God that they didn't understand.

But medical science even today would have a hard time explaining any of the healings or raisings-from-the-dead that are attributed to Jesus.

Well, you can buy a Haynes manual for your car, but if it stirs anything in you (other than a desire to take your car to bits), it's surely more likely to be appreciation for the work of the designer of the car, rather than an insistence that the designer doesn't exist.

No - faith is very much a part of life in the USA, for example, despite the material wealth and the lead that country has in many advanced areas of research and manufacture. On a world scale, faith is very much a current issue. Atheism, or various kinds of agnostcism, are very prevalent in 21st century UK, but we are more of an exception than the rule in this. It's easy for people engaging in this sort of debate to lose sight of that.

Don't worry, it's just a basecoat for a porous wall. There's two layers of wallpaper and more paint to come yet. :(

Thank you ... you're right, I have, and I certainly will ...

It makes him easier to get to grips with, I suppose. That's not the whole picture of course. If you want that you'll have to come to church and listen to me going at it from the pulpit for a great many weeks. :D

Such was the thesis being explored in Contact, although Carl Sagan was himself an avowed agnostic of the fence-sitting kind. :D

Christianity certainly holds to this idea.

Re: The existence of God
 

Just picking up on this point: I'd say that that the situation in the UK is pretty much the norm for the Western world (with the US being a bit of an exception). It would be stretching the truth to say that the UK is an exception in the Western world.

Re: The existence of God
 

Essentially all questions like this are a waste of time, as you can never prove or disprove the existance of God by a logic puzzle due to the very nature of religion.

Religion is based on faith, and faith exists without proof, the second you try to bring logic into a debate on religion you lose because religion exists outside of the realms of logic. It's not logical, it doesn't make scientific sense, and cannot be shown to be the way, this is why religions are faiths and not sciences.

To say that people suffer therefore there is no God misses the point, if people who didn't follow a God suffered, whilst those that did didn't, that would be proof of the existence of God, and therefore the faith would be removed. Religion cannot exist without faith, faith is the very essence of religion, it's not something you know, but something you feel.

You can attribute the suffering of people as tests of faith, maybe not for you as an individual, but for humanity as a whole, you may live a sin free life, and you may still suffer, how you react to the fact that that happens could be how God judges you. Even though everything has gone against you, and everything seems to be falling apart, do you still turn to God? Or do you dismiss him from your life?

Now, I'm an atheist, and quite set in my beliefs, I don't believe in God, and think religion was first developed as a way to control the unruley masses, the fear of God does wonders for keeping a society in check. But I'm not going to try to debate the existence of God on the basis of logic and reason, because I know that religion doesn't have either of these things, and it doesn't need to.

Re: The existence of God
 

God no aliens yes

Re: The existence of God
 

All boils down to....
Was the earth and human life created by an intelligent designer, or big bang theory and evolution.
Choice is ours to make, free will and all that.
The way to find out is to study both sides and make your own mind up!

I personally like that story!

---------- Post added at 07:10 ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 ----------


With respect, there are new members coming on the site daily, some will like the chance to share in a topic such as this, or just to read other peoples view pionts. I know for the more seasoned folk on here it may become boring. Or if you have seen a thred go into a downward spiral and then hard to moderate, it must be tough. I for one love to see other peoples view points on religion, even if I've heard them all before!!;)
Not a dig at anyone here at all by the way!

These type of topics I realise come up on forums and exchanges may get heated at times, but anyone with a true belief in God will not take offence, and see through the wind up merchants sly digs and abusive comments, and would focus on the folks comments who are properly involved in the topic!

Re: The existence of God
 

Because religious belief is a powerful influence in society?

To use an analogy: Don't you agree that we should continually question a drug company about a medicine that has been available for decades? Or are you happy to accept the "authoritative answer", and not insist on examining the long-term safety data?

Well, logic sets us apart from the other animals. It's the best tool we have to differentiate between fact and fiction.

To use an analogy: Without logic we would still think the sun revolved around a flat earth.

Re: The existance of God
 

Very very well!!

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Or it could be the devil at work.

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That's a bit harsh on the OP......;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Just because you can't solve something logically it doesn't mean it's wrong.

To use an analogy: Logic would say that a particle will act the same way if it's observed as if it isn't. Yet the double slit experiment shows us that particles act differently when something is watching them, unobserved they act as waves, and observed they act as particles. In fact the entire quantum world, where all possible outcomes of an event exist in superposition, defies logic. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not, we know it does.

To cast something aside because it's not logical is short sighted.

Logic cannot be applied to everything, religion is one of the many things that defies logic because it has to. Any deity worth it's salt will ensure that their religion is as illogical as possible, because they don't want it to be proven because they want followers of faith. There's nothing special about following something that has been proven.

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Sorry for being so impersonal as to reply with a link, but he explains it better than I can: http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/200...cal_book_d.php

Re: The existence of God
 

many years ago i watched jess yates on songs of praise,he was discussing faith with two people a christian woman and a atheist man,on the conclusion of the debate the atheist asked the woman what she would do if after a lifetime acknowledging that there is a god and upon dying finding that there is no god,she replied nothing,she then put it to the man who was denying god and upon dying finding out that there is a god what would he do ? he couldnt answer the question.me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.

Re: The existence of God
 

Why does there?

This is what I don't get, you'll see most religious people saying the same, yet there's no reason why there has to be, and when pushed most just say something along the lines of "this can't be all there is".

Re: The existence of God
 

Is the question no god or no afterlife?

If there was no afterlife you would not "find" it not there.

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That will be people with no real bible knowledge then!!!:)

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It's so much easier if you don't believe in God. :P

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cant agree .
if you don't believe in god you have to look harder for the answers ,and you also have to make the best of the life you have instead of waiting for the mythical afterlife, the easy answer is its Gods will ,well that's my ten peneth ;)

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Well, I don't believe there's a God, and my life is going great.

Re: The existence of God
 

thats great. i dont believe either and lifes what you make it imo


wow two posts from atheists that should stir up the other side .

Re: The existence of God
 

Bible knowledge doesn't answer why there HAS TO BE more to existence than just life on this planet, it just suggests that there is.

It's perfectly possible for existence to start with birth and end at death. Saying that there has to be something more is just a way of saying that you don't want this to be all there is because it'd ultimately mean life is meaningless.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ha! I like that idea, and it appears very true. never thought of it like that!

hmmm, possibly. but if we look into things such as 'wakes' when people die... this ritual came about from times a-past, when plates and tankards were forged from pewter. the crudely made mead and and acidic foods (such as tomatoes, etc) would react to the alloy casuing poison to the consumer. this sometimes left them so unconscious with such low metabolic functions that it was very hard to tell they were alive. it became apparent to the people that sometimesthey were burying alive persons, known only by exhuming coffins with scratch marks on the inside. when it was realised what was going on, people would hold a wake (quite literally waiting for them to wake up) whereby family / friends would gather around the layed out body with food and drink and sit with the body to see if they woke up. this also lead to 'saved by the bell' and it became common practice to feed a pull into coffins tied around a dead persons wrist with a bell up top so that if they woke up, the bell would chime. this also required someone to stay in the graveyard at night incase a bell went off and thus we have 'the graveyard shift' in reference to working nights.

who is to say something similar did not happen to Jesus?


as a religious person, do you think that global faith in God would be shattered if science revealed we were not alone in the universe?

why do you think this is? what is different about us to, say, the USA? why is religion so institutionalised over there?


Thank you for your time, Chris. I apologise if you are tired of answering questions like these, but then I suppose if it's something close to your heart, you'll never tire of talking about it. I'm in no way trying to poo-poo God, religion or faith, nor am I trying to make believers question their own views. Religion is just one of those things I find difficult to grasp because I tend to be a very logical thinker, whereby a+b=c - religion falls outside of that and is souly based on a faith, which totally ignores logic and comes only from within.

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------

care to expand on that?

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

agreed

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------

hey... I saw that! :dozey:

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't think that requires a religious person to answer, christianity has seen many changes over the years from its inception that I suspect that it would simply evolve to accomodate such an event. It may even be hailed as a new chapter in the Bible. Just because something is based upon faith does not logically mean that it is inflexible. The rules of logic dictate the if you start with a false premise (I read "that" post it near took my head off thanks for that one) e.g. in this case that a person of faith is unable to change or mould their faith to fit in with new evidence. You will certainly end up with a logically false conclusion though it will have still been logical.

For example it has been argued that religion is not based upon logic or even reason and therefore you cannot assess it as such. This standpoint however is talking about the impossibility of assessing "Faith" not the events, evidence e.g. the Bible, historic evidence which all contribute to such a belief. These things can be assesed within a logical framework.

My only gripe with religion is why in the purest sense of the word does each religion claim ownership of the one true god, I am open here as I may be wrong???. Since God is indefinable and only attributed certain "human" characteristics in order to get to grips with the concept it is possible that God is all of them and that they are all right!

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

I was just checking a couple of Bible timelines, from 6th day of creation nothing till 3999BC that is one hell of a day off :D

http://www.abiblestudy.com/part1.html

Though this one suggests creation etc. happened in 4004 BC

http://www.wordsight.org/btl/000_btl-fp.htm

We know that's not true and I believe is generally accepted as such.

Re: The existence of God
 

there are plenty of people a heck of a lot better educated than me and a lot better off than me who beleive in god and the hereafter,me personally i put it down to faith and i have no problems with it,i am by no means a holy joe but i do beleive in prayer and faith and where i come from i firmly beleive that faith kept my family safe during the troubles,every man / woman are entitled to their own beleifs and i have no time for people ramming religion down peoples throats live and let live.

Re: The existence of God
 

Like the people who knock at the door :mad:

They ruined my breakfast once, I was making a lovely fried breakfast... Not wanting to be rude I tried diplomacy... conculsion was black breakfast.

Re: The existence of God
 

If there was a God.....
If there was a God that phrase wouldn't exist. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

And I have no time for people who ram atheism down people's throats.

Re: The existence of God
 

Though I have never heard of an atheist going door to door?

Re: The existence of God
 

I didn't say they did. Tweetiepie didn't mention anything about knocking on doors. But you only have to read any discussion forum about religion to find the atheist queuing up to tell everyone how we're all deluded, that there's "no God" etc.

Re: The existence of God
 

It's fun to watch them as they pass each other on your drive as the one's going and the other one's coming though :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Unless you agree with the idea that God is letting the whole freedom thing run its course as a test to see which of us will remain faithful?

Seems an odd test though if that is what it is.... Maybe God will accept us all in the end seeing as he gave us free will, logic, rational though and reasoning as gifts. Seems a little spiteful that he should grant such gifts and then punish us for not believing having given us a very tenuous grasp of the facts.

I believe since we have been granted such "gifts" we are meant to use them. I admit I sit on the fence, however I also have "faith" that since we are obviously meant to use these qualities they are not sins if a god should exist, I also have faith that no matter what, unless I am evil of purpose that I shall be admitted into heaven should it exist despite any belief that I hold during life.

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:46 ----------

Russ I was not taking issue, perhaps we both made flipant comments. I do not wish a war of words but an exchange of views. Though many believe that no resolution can be made it does not mean that we cannot respect each others opinion.

Re: The existence of God
 

That's all very well in theory but in practise it's a little different. Many atheists feel totally justified in telling the world that there's no God (it's their view, they're entitled to it) but if someone with faith proclaims their belief in God then suddenly they're "ramming it down people's throats" etc.

Not that there's supposed to be a competition but atheists get away with far more than people of faith when it comes to professing their beliefs.

Re: The existence of God
 

Well if he don't let me in, I can always quote the Bible and the bit about forgiving and forgetting to him :)

Re: The existence of God
 

LOL but I think you also missed the bit about the wrath of god

Re: The existence of God
 

Is that when we see some action from him? I'm all for that one :)

Re: The existence of God
 

I see your point, I have not any experience as I am not religeous per se nor witness of this, must've been on other threads before this one.

If however as has been mentioned atheists have a harder time because of the lack of any belief system except lack of belief then you could possibly find comform in a moral high ground?

If not then why not simply trade it all for a knowing smile, a wink, benelovence, faith, belief etc. for they are in your eyes wrong, you have god, you will in the end return to god. You have nothing to fear.... What does an atheist have? You'll have eternal glory, what is that compare to 70 or so years of life in this mortal coil?

Surely that is worth more than anything anyone can throw at you?

Re: The existence of God
 

After 7 years it gets tough....

Actually very quickly it became tough, hearing the same worn-out arguments from the same people over and over again. Sadly these threads always end up the same way. If I was a regular forum member then I probably wouldn't care. But they are a nightmare to admin.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think you need to wait till the end for the creature with the red hot poker!!

Seriously! It isn't a red hot poker it is "eternal damnation" no parole, no good behaviour etc. In many modern interpretations which the modern Christian faiths seems to sign up to, rather than the older "your soul will burn forever" kind of way. There is a softer message though potentially harsher reality, Hell is being removed from the word of God, I have read a bit but may be wrong here?. This of course is if this is all true but only people of faith believe it is so.

However I have noticed that though Christians will agree to disagree on what they call "small issues" on the big ones like Jesus dying to redeem mankind this they are all solid on. Hell seesm to come under the small issues categories so it is more fluid in what it is.

Theology and Philosophy fabulous!

Re: The existence of God
 

We got more chance of Aliens with ray guns and fairies at the bottom of our gardens I think.

Re: The existence of God
 

Surely they can only end in such a way if you and other like yourself give way to the forces of logic and reason?

I myself love a logical debate and it has a place. Faith also has a place. They are both incompatible concepts and cannot cancel out the other. For many logic is thet way forward simply because it is provable.

For myself, though I do not have a religion as other might, I do believe that life is splendorous and warrants more questions. The questions should not cease, the ridicule of other opinions should.

It seems that the battle always boils over to the point where both sides conclude that the other should simply "shut the f*** up!!!!!!!!" but the reality usually is that both are being equally ridiculous.

For me at least that is the greatest advantage of sitting on the fence, I can see both sides and see accept and understand to a point both sides. I am the least emotional, most rational and most logical creature in this "thing".

What if this is what was really intended? What if God (if there is one) really intended for us to move forward and use the tools "they" provided us with as a means to move in another direction. What if the Bible was a tool and has served it purpose? Maybe it was never meant to be clung to like a life raft... The nearest person is 2000 or so years old, the world is moving on. Maybe the fence sitter isn't really a fence sitter after all, maybe that is our purpose???? I could write much more but I think that is enough for today, my head is buzzing with ideas

---------- Post added at 00:44 ---------- Previous post was at 00:35 ----------

Since neither can be proven "just yet", your stance is just as tenous as god.

Whilst I hold the belief that it is unlikely that we are alone in the universe, it does not cancel out any belief of a God...... Unless your definition of the word God in much tighter than I ever thought possible.

I also stuggle with the idea that if powers beyond our comprehension are at play why it should be a single entity???? Since we cannot prove 1 entity.

Besides, why should or even would God be alone? I didn't say lonely... simply a-lone as in "a" "lone" entity

:)

Re: The existence of God
 

The term "ramming", when used about people sharing their beliefs about God, is a very wrong one to use.
It is also a word that has just been picked up by the masses and now is used when anyone speaks about God, but in most cases, so not true!

Most folk who do the work of speaking about God to others are respectful, and would be listeners of the other peoples opinions /view points if a discussion about God was entered into.

Re: The existence of God
 

To accept something that cannot be tested by logic is foolish - or do you expect everyone to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Re: The existence of God
 

I love my family, even when they upset me and cause me pain - where's the logic in that.

Emotion is not logical, but it exists. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

To dismiss everything because of the limitations of our logical minds is foolish. :rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

is that just another way of saying there is no evidence of a GOD ?;)

Re: The existence of God
 

I know there's a god. ;) There is no evidence to the contrary.

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If you are to weild the sword of logic as the sword of truth, you should at least make a "logical statement". God and Fairies are not logically the same under any rules of logic.

Re: The existence of God
 

we seem to arrived at the

Re: The existence of God
 

No, it's faith. You may think that having faith is foolish, but many others do not. Do you not have faith in anything?

I don't believe in God, but I'm not going to turn a theological debate into a logical one, because that's just building a straw man as no one believes that religion is at all logical.

It's really not.

We know that life can exist, we know that we're not at the limit of our scientific abilities, so therefore it's a logical conclusion to say that a civilisation could existed before us, has evolved further than us, and is more scientifically advanced than us, based on the fact that there are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe, and each of them has any number of solar systems, and any number of planets. The law of averages logically states that at least one of them will be home to advanced life, and if they've managed to avoid the numerous extinction events that we've had on this planet (remembering humans only started out 200,000 years ago in a universe billions of years old) then it's not a stretch to say they might have ray guns. Just think where we'll be in just another 1,000 years.

Re: The existence of God
 

They are the same when one calls them a figment of ones imagination. other than that, what is the likely logical statement under the rules of logic that make one so much different to the other? :)

God may not exist. therefore he is and was as real as the fairies are to some. only difference being is that God was written about more than the fairies were.

Re: The existence of God
 

It is not "logical", it is reasonable to consider the possibility of life on other planets. I am open to this possibility, however since it cannot currently be proven either way and nor is there any logical foundation for such a claim it is also reasonable to consider that we may indeed be the first sentient and possibly most advanced race in the known universe (ignoring the possibility/complexity of multiverses/parallel universes). There "logically" has to be a first in any set of given events.

To argue the point of alien life forms more advanced to ourselves must in the current climate be attributed to a "faith" of sorts. Therefore this would discount the possibility of logic and you yourself have said are incompatible.

---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

In order for the statement to be logical fairies would have to share the same traits as god. Fairies are attributed generally to be magical beings, no religion has ever attributed such qualities to god, miraculous maybe. Also God is an omnipresence which Fairies are not. Point being I could go on all day citing the differences but 1+1 = 2 not 1+2=2.

Re: The existence of God
 

How isn't it logical? It's based on inference, which is at the very heart of logic.

You cannot say for sure that there is other life forms, advanced or otherwise, however you can logically deduce that there very well may be.

You cannot do the same for God, therefore your point that saying that it's just as tenuous to say there is more chance that aliens exist than God does is clearly wrong.

The point that we don't know for sure doesn't make it faith based statement to talk about the possibility. Faith would be stating that you believe that there are ray gun wielding aliens in the universe. That has no evidence, and would be a statement of faith. However saying that there's more chance of ray gun wielding aliens than there is of God isn't faith based, it's based on inference. It doesn't say they are there, but that based on what we know, there could be.

Re: The existence of God
 

Inference based upon what premise?

That it is likely that there are Alien life forms superior to us which may weild ray guns?

I think it is outside of this particular debate but you cannot prove the inference nor measure it at this time. Since you cannot do either you are left with philosophical logic?

As I said previously you can logically prove something based upon a false premise, it doesn't make the out come true or right.

In order to be convinced you'll have to walk though the logical argument starting from your premise and ending with your logical conclusion.

Re: The existence of God
 

What is the difference between magic and miracles?

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------

Premise: life exists on earth
Premise: There exist other planets like earth
postulate: No unique occurrence happened to begin life on earth
Conclusion: It is likely life exists on other planets.

Of course this is not a proof because it rests on the postulate being true.

Re: The existence of God
 

It also (imho) depends on the second premise being true, and the definition of "life" - does all life have to be earth-like?

NASA

Re: The existence of God
 

magic is basically an illusion. a miracle is unexplainable.



then is this not just a theory rather than a truth? you can't commit to one nor the other as we don't have any facts other than life does exist on earth.

the 'assumption' that other life exists at this time relies on your belief, or faith. much the same as those who believe in God and those who don't. neither know for sure.

Re: The existence of God
 

Not in the context I was referencing. The context was that fairies exist and are magic.


I have not committed to anything. I gave a logical argument for the existence of other life based on limited information.

/Head explodes.

You know some people only consider their own existence to be truth and everything else a theory.

Re: The existence of God
 

I believe in strict scientific parlance it's not even a theory, it's a hypothesis.

Incidentally, to answer a question someone asked earlier, the Bible doesn't say God hasn't created life elsewhere. Some Christians have inferred that and made a doctrine out of it (much the same as heliocentric creation, or flat earth creation, are not in the Bible but were nevertheless made points of dogma that gave the Pope a real headache when they were shown to be false).

I can't see my faith being dented if it is discovered.