Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

For those of you that haven't read my thread in the News forum - or who have otherwise not heard about it - later this week Virgin Media and a Dutch company called Avinity will be demonstrating Avinity's RenderCast platform, at Cable Congress 2009. It looks like it's best described as a thin client solution, in that all the work is done at the headend.

Talk of a next-generation TV platform has been flying around for some time, with the term cropping up in investor presentations and also in the leaked Samsung V+ document. However, this is (to my knowledge) the first time that VM has publicly linked itself with a possible provider of such a platform - up until now the only platform provider (again, as far as I know) that VM has dealt with was SeaChange International (who bought Liberate Technologies a few years back), since before the NTL:Telewest merger when Liberate TV Navigator wasn't looking quite so archaic.

What's interesting is that VM may have worked with Avinity before, see here, quote down there (my emphasis):
I'm not even going to pretend that I know what "Tier 1" means in this context (although I would think that maybe it simply means big and important, yes?), but VM are probably the only cable operator with a VoD library that could be described as large. So, VM and Avinity could possibly have been working together - obviously in secret - for well over a year now.

Looking at their website, RenderCast as the NGTV platform seems like a rather good fit for VM. With all the older boxes out there, creaking under the strain of Liberate but prohibitively expensive for VM - in its current state, anyway - to replace, the thin client approach could be just what the doctor ordered.

Hopefully, somebody will leak a video because I'd very much like to see exactly what it is that VM and Avinity have to show off!

Sam

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Some links in the google finance watch of VM (VMED)

http://www.google.com/finance?client=gd&q=VMED

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I so hope this is it and will be the new platform. If so wooooooooooo!

Time to blow Sky's new EPG out the water?!

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I'm not sure if this is about the same thing but I received this report to-day.http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=89910

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Flipping hell. If they do both then things are looking good!

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I hadn't seen that, but it's rather interesting! I don't know if you're aware of this, but Motorola manufacture the FiOS multi-room DVR. They actually seem to manufacture most of the cable boxes in the States (not to mention the most fugly cable boxes I've seen in quite a while...), as I found out when I tried to find out whether any of the FTTC US cablecos do a multi-room DVR - but it seems like Verizon is the only one to offer it (although, admittedly, I only tried 4 or 5 of them before giving up - there just seem to be soo many!).

What I'd like to know, is: why exactly are these two companies partnering with VM to show off their fancy new stuff?

I don't understand Motorola's and VM's interest in each other, I really don't - not now we're *just* seeing the Samsung V+ start to roll out. The only way I can see it making sense for VM to roll out the Motorola DVR is if it was a separate product, complementing the V+ - a V++, if you will. Incidentally, that's actually how Verizon do it.

What I can very much understand is the affinity (sorry!) between VM and Avinity. VM are running on a platform that became prehistoric years ago running on STBs that, many of which at least, ought to be hidden away in some obscure museum where they can no longer frighten the children who grew up while they waited for the guide to respond - but VM can't afford to replace millions of boxes. Avinity have a technology which means that they won't *need* to replace the boxes to get things running smoothly again - it's a match made in heaven!

Still, I'm not sure that any of this will ever come to fruition - it's only a trade show, and this is still the same Virgin Media...

Sam

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Just look at how far things have come in the last two years when it comes to the TV service. No-one could claim it was the same now than it was when it became Virgin

Yes the hardware is *mostly* the same, but that is being addressed.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

In what areas, exactly?

• Apparently, there's now less HD VOD than there was a year ago
• the ITV HD linear trial disappeared never to return
• VM publicly announced that they had the rights to Channel 4 HD both linear and VOD over a year ago yet it's *still* only available on Sky
• Vbox users have only 1 day of EPG data
• Teletext withdrew their service from the platform completely
• the VOD menus look almost *exactly* the same as they did on Telewest, if a little less psychedelic
• VM is the only platform on which BBC Red Button won't give me weather for Plymouth
• Things like genre search, which were even in an ancient NTL EPG, have gone
• Where are subtitles on VOD??
• For that matter, where are the subtitles on BBC HD?
• Why, why, why do the standard boxes still have this awful remote?!

I'm sure there's more, but I am *trying* not to come across as a complete ********! I'm just struggling to see what enhancements the TV platform has seen since VM became VM. Skippable playlists, maybe?

Sam

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

And yet VoD viewing counts for 52% of Virgin's customer base, and now has content from all the main broadcasters barring five and Sky
Which was a decision by ITV

Not defending that one - it annoys me as much as anyone else

Blame the old STBs for that - hopefully once they have all gone, then it can be increased again.

Commercial decision by a 3rd part company - nothing to do with Virgin

So the menus look the same. I always though it was about the content provided - not how good the menus look?

Maybe you should talk to the BBC about that then - as they provide the Red Button content NOT Virgin

Never used it TBH so didn't know it was there!

On their way

AFAIK also on their way

AFAIK it is something they have planned to issue a single remote. Slight problem is the Pace and the non-V+ SA boxes don't like normal remote codes (which is why you have the different coloured remotes)

Also which remote are you on about. The ex-tw or ex-ntl ones?

Increased content from most broadcasters for all customers - only place to access iPlayer content on the TV, 4oD and now ITV Net Player,
Improved reliability of the STBs,
Improved access to subtitles,
Increase inclusive content for XL tv customers

I know there is still room for improvement. But to call the TV service the same is wrong

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Why did they make that decision, though? Why, when it came time to "launch" ITV HD, did they choose not to return to VM?

Return path? It's not as if a non-recorder needs to hold the whole thing in memory, is it?

A decision made, perhaps, because the platform was slow, clunky and unstable.

I'm aware of the fact that VM aren't responsible for what the BBC do, but it's a little telling that while the MHEG and OpenTV versions have gone through quite a number of revisions, tweaks and enhancements, the vast majority of the Liberate version looks much the same as it always did.

I had hoped that the Sport Multiscreen's more modern style would be applied to the rest of Red Button, but I'm actually glad it wasn't - it's dog slow, as is iPlayer. They're both very well done, don't get me wrong, but on my two SAs they feel like... like jewellery, almost. You show them to people because they look good, but they serve little practical purpose.

By the way, did you know that there's a red button app on ITV1? I thought I knew what slow was...

[QUOTE=BenMcr;34754805]So the menus look the same. I always though it was about the content provided - not how good the menus look?
Yes, of course - but if menus and such weren't considered important we wouldn't have things like EPGs.

Well it was before my time, but apparently awareness of the feature was about as low as that of the help button on the remote!

That's good to hear, but seeing as both BBC HD and VOD have been around for rather a while now, I'm afraid that sounds like "coming soon" to me...

I think it's an ex-tw - it's got a big blue home button about half a million miles above where my thumb wants to be, the one where the back and i buttons are so close together that if I'm not careful I'll hit the other by accident, the one with not enough grip, the one with the tiny domes of hard plastic for the d-pad buttons which need about a ton of pressure and actually *hurt* my thumb to use.

I *love* the V+ remote because it's got those enormous d-pad buttons and the so-raised-it's-impossible-to-miss ok button, home and back and stuff are so close to where I want them to be, it's a nice weight and it's got a rubberised back.

You've got me on improved reliability of STBs, and the XL inclusive content - a few years ago I couldn't go near a cable box without it hanging...

iPlayer is the same as catch-up, basically, and I'm think that 4oD was on Teleport so any enhancements to those services is just incremental. ITV Player is definitely a good thing, but until HD appears it's just bog standard catchup.

I'm not sure why, because my hearing and that of the rest of my family's is, I think, ok, but I grew up with subtitles turned firmly on, and that's a habit that's just continued. I find it especially difficult to watch comedy (laughter and applause) and HD (wide dynamic range or something) without them, so I find it frustrating that VM haven't implemented them on VOD *or* HD after all this time.

I didn't mean to come across as argumentative, though, so I'm sorry about that! :o:

Sam

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Wonder if this has anything to do with the new software?
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]
Image is taken from the November Investors presentation I believe

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Now that is ugly, barely an improvement on the awful menu/EPG system in place now.

And I have to wonder just how slow thats gonna run when some of the boxes seem to struggle with the *ahem* Graphical Intensity *ahem* of the current EPG !

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

The whole point of this thread is that Avinity have techonlogy where all the hard work is done at VM's end - not on the STB in the customer's home.

So it doesn't matter how old the box is or how graphic intensive the EPG is

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Oh joy, so it's going to rely on the crumbling network instead, fantastic :rolleyes:

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Then best you move then you will not have to worry about it will you. :rolleyes:

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Already underway! Being released from contract by CEO office as VM cannot supply the services advertised in my area due to oversubscription and they cannot say when an upgrade will happen. :D

Good luck....

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Indeed good luck

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

does anyone know where this demo can be seen online or has it not been released yet

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

It's amazing how such positive news can turn into such negative posts!

I for one see this development as very positive and this partnership brings us one step nearer to my dream of being able to access programmes and films directly from the internet. We will eventually have an almost unlimited access to everything on our TV screens, although I dare say we will have to pay for most of it either by subscription or pay per view.

Brilliant! I can scarcely wait. And with the IPTV rollout due to be completed by sometime in 2010, this Utopia may come sooner rather than later. That really would be a coup for Virgin Media.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

What IPTV rollout?

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Wait...didn't you get that memo Ben?:p:


No, neither did I.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Who knows? I will say one thing though, some of Avinity's clients are Benelux IPTV operators, and the system is probably more suited to narrowcast than broadcast (because everyone using a RenderCast app needs their own private stream, and I'm not sure that VM's current VOD configuration has the capacity for that).

If VM can implement RC over DVB-C *and* IPTV, they could create a mostly unified TV platform both on- and off-net. Using RC to provide the entire platform has its own problems, however - like displaying graphics over locally recorded video.

Sam

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

It's the new platform being introduced to replace the existing one. It was reported on Digital Spy last year.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

You mean this article where it mentions IPTV trials? http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitalt...m-in-2009.html

Doesn't actually say the Next Generation TV platform will be IPTV based

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Well that's how I read it. What else is this article saying? Not sure I follow you, BenMcr.:confused:

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Im saying that to deliver a full end to end IPTV service it would probably require new STBs - which considering they have just invested in the samsung V+ is probably not going to happen anytime soon

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I don't think so, BenMcr. With the latest advanced video coding techniques, there should be no need to change the set top boxes.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

But that isn't what IPTV is. IPTV is the transport protocol - not the encoding

You can carry any video encoding you like over IP, but as the STBs only decode MPEG2 you would have to use that

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Well, I am not a techie, but I do understand that the H.264 standard for video compression allows operators to utilise their existing MPEG-2 and IP based networking infrastructures.

I don't know the detail of what VM are planning; they are very secretive about all of this. However, if they really know what they are doing (one can always hope!), the future for VM TV subscribers could be looking quite good in the medium term.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

But to decode H.264 requires new hardware - or transcoding back to MPEG2 for the STBs

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

As I said, I'm not a techie, but I have been looking through various websites on this subject and this is not how I understood it. It appeared to me that H.264 enabled cablecos to provide these services using MPEG2 without having to change the STBs. Are you saying that this is not possible? If that is the case, it is very disappointing because there is no realistic chance of VM changing to MPEG4 in the near future due to the cost.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

The problem with migrating to H.264 is that it requires migration to DVB-C2, which is still in draft. The fact all their STBs (V+ and VBox) are DVB-C compatible means if they were to migrate their entire network to DVB-C2, they'd need to update EVERY box! Frankly I can't see that happening.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

H.264 is a completely seperate encoding technology. Its the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

(Sob) :bigcry:

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Remember though that Virgin don't need to migrate to MPEG4 anytime soon

AFAIK by switching off analogue they free up enough space for around 30-40 HD channels

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

How is the analogue switch off going? how much of VM network still supports analogue broadcasting?

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

reading the developers notes etc, theres nothing great about this avinity RenderCast platform ,it's basicly a very limited subset of XML, CSS and Javascript edited inside Eclipse ,much the same as the old antiquated Liberate CPU cycles swallowing GUI scripting language and interpreter in very limited scope.

"Elements
There are not many elements we can use in the RenderCast platform..."

http://developer.rendercast.com/doc/Tutorial

the super light, tiny yet powerful rebol View (written by Carl Sassenrath of AmigaOS multitasking fame) would have been a far better base for any new expandable TCP/IP/UDP script GUI language in todays world STB/SOC market place http://www.rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r

---------- Post added at 04:17 ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 ----------

your mixing things up, AVC, aka H.264, aka Mpeg4-part10 does NOT require any such DVB-C2, its just a video codec to get better quality at 2.5+ better compression at a given screensize ,and so save lots of bandwidth and file size, it's totally seperate and unrelated to any DVB-* tunnel protocol you might push your AVC/AAC/whatever container transport stream into to deliver it at the CPE end.

you have your video codec, your audio codec and any other data such as sub titles, you place all these inside your container, be it .mpeg,.mp4,or even .AVI container, or Transport Stream (although the TS [Transport Stream]isnt really a true container but close enough for this thread) you then place that on your DVB whatever tunnel , DVB comes in several flavours, each one incremental version basicly allowing you to put more and more data inside a given freq/space....

DVB-C(2) ,DVB-S(2) ,DVB-T(2) ,DVB-H(2), you can put any of your antiquated Mpeg2 only video+audio encoded transport stream or your far better compressable AVC+audio inside any of these DVB types and indeed they do.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Aye, but while the STBs conform to DVB-C specification, if they were to suddenly push H.264 through them, not only are the STBs not powerful enough to decode it, it also breaks DVB compatibility since no European cable standard has it defined at the moment.

Like I said, migration to H.264 across the board requires an upgrade of *all* STBs (easily a few million out there), but they could at least have the HD channels broadcast to the V+ STBs in H.264 and replace the V+s.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I've been looking at a number of websites on this subject and I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

A quote from the www.ambarella.com web site, for example:

'MPEG-2 based broadcast content can still benefit from the extraordinary compression gain afforded by the H.264 format if the technology is used in newly deployed appliances while the already deployed appliances remain compatible.'

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

I think that is basically saying you can record in MPEG-2 but using H.264 compression which saves space - but the end appliances would still only be able to decode MPEG-2

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

Didn't VM invest in some H.264 -> MPEG2 kit for the headends a little while ago? So HD could be pushed around the majority of the network in the more bandwidth frugal 264, only using MPEG2 for the last leg?

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

That last leg is the bottleneck though, it needs to be H.264 throughout for HD content, using MPEG-2 is a massive waste of bandwidth, especially if they're supposedly pushing more HD channels on a creaky network.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

"I think there is more to this than meets the eye"
seriously, theres really nothing complicated about this.

Mpeg2 is one codec, AVC/H.264 is a totally seperate and newer codec (thats got a lot more options and even a lossless mode for pro editing etc, that Mpeg2 doesnt), Mpeg2 is NOT compatable with AVC , you need seperate decoders.

the simple answer is if you use an antiquated Mpeg2 codec to encode/transcode your video content and shove it on the wire.

you need the exact same codec on the other end of the wire so that your STB can then decode that video stream... and then shove it onscreen.

the AVC/ H.264 codec gives you on average 2 and a half times the compression that your antiquated Mpeg2 gets, so you save lots of bandwidth, bitrate , and drive storage space by using AVC, you NEED an AVC decoder codec inside your STB chipset to decode that.

NTL were running test of new STBs that could decode both the old Mpeg2 codec, and the far better AVC codec video streams....

TW were later running the so called V+ STBs that only had the old Mpeg2 codec chipset and so it cant decode any AVC encoded video that might one day get pushed down the wire.....

TW did this as they needed a quick fix for a STB that could also save the content locally on your STB as sky were killing them by this time.... they went withthe cheapest option and that was the old antiquated Mpeg2 only STBs that their mates in the US love so much and were them off as end of line.

meanwhile the world STB markets were moving to AVC SOC STBs that also included the old antiquated Mpef2 codec for the transition.....

so , to recap, Virgin media accountants made good short term profits on the books by dropping the far better long term NTL AVC capable STBs, and instead contracting for millions of antiquated end of line Mpeg2 only V+ STBs that couldnt decode the worlds AVC standard.....

in effect saving pennys on the CPE V+ STBs, to now need to spend lots of ££££££ for bandwidth costs, new AVC capable STBs that can take this AVC content, and transcoders that can take the industries generic AVC content and convert it on the fly to the higher bandwidth using antiquated Mpeg2 and stuff it on the wire to your MPeg2 only STBs so lived by lots of the US cable operators even today......

---------- Post added at 06:06 ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 ----------

your mixing it up a little, as a basic simplistic outline, the AVC to Mpeg2 transcoders are for taking any AVC content they might be fed from the worlds down sats for instance, and then they can realtime convert these feeds to the antiquated Mpeg2, then place it on the VM wire for your Mpeg2 only V+ and other STBs to decode and view.

sending AVC to your stb doesnt work as you dont have an AVC decoder onboard any of your virgin media STBs.

the newest sky STBs do, for their AVC HD content, as do the new freeview STBS,etc, only Uk VM cable is still stuck on the antiquated Mpeg2 only codec :angel:

if VM really cared about bandwidth, and using the internal network " majority of the network in the more bandwidth frugal 264" then yes ,AVC/H.264 would be a good thing, but they can also just use generic Multicasting to the outline storage kit, simple, send one single copy to all client servers listening at a set time over a basic Multicast 224.0.0.1 IP is all they need do, any time, as all the worlds ISP routers and related kit have the generic Multicast protocol as standard and have from day one.....

its a real shame they still go out of their way to filter it off from the end users CPE kit sat on your desks, as we could all benefit, and the worlds devs would havea reason to , and could simply retro fit the old "MBONE" and new multicasting protocol code into all the high bandwidth video streaming apps in a very short time (even todays P2p with muticast DHT etc) if the world ISPs just turned it back on all the way to the users.....finally :angel:

---------- Post added at 06:24 ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 ----------

totally lost me there ben :angel:, your flow doesnt make sense, if the STB had an AVC decoder, then you would keep it in that format, sending AVC to an Mpeg2 only STB would store it sure, but you couldnt do anything with it, least of all view it.... and the USB ports are mising the generic driver that exists for the V+ firmware so thats out too.... coying to an external USB drive and playing it on an AVC capable box, xbox360/PS3 for intance....

and again you cant stream this AVC stored on any Mpeg2 only VM STB as again, the generic driver to activate the STB Ethernet LAN stack and the existing code for basic networking to your PC has not been installed on the VM firmware/middleware, it does exist, but VM dont pay the fees to include it and thats always been a shame, as it might just about manage that network streaming if you pull it with your LAN PCs rather than push it with the internal STBs underpowered SOC/CPU, multicasting with even the underpowered STB CPU might stand a chance though.

Re: Are VM and Avinity demonstrating "NGTV" at a trade show later this week?
 

And now we have the Samsung V+ boxes which will decode MPEG4. If/when Virgin swap their HD contect to MPEG4 it probably won't be that difficult to swap out those SA V+ for Samsungs

They can then use the SA V+ boxes for those that don't want HD but do want a PVR

Again - Samsung V+ is AVC/MPEG4 capable

I was trying to make sense of what OLD BOY posted. But what I meant is it can't be that difficut to shift content around your network in AVC format and then closer to the end user e.g local VoD servers transcode it back to whatever format the STB will handle.

Kind of like ZIP files do over the internet ;)