Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/7868151.stm

I thought we had got past this? Guess I was wrong :(

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

i read about this also and my heart goes out to his family and friends.

Being gay myself i know there r still people out there that take great pride in causing harm or distress to gay people.

I was reading a blog online earlier about a guy who was with a friend when a black bloke came upto them and said "Did u know gay is wrong" and then said he should try and i quote "pray it away" and his friend said to the guy i couldnt care less wheather my friend is gay or not it makes no difference and didnt people of your colour suffer the same kind of discrimination not so long ago and now your doing it to another minority.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

nothing will bring him back, but i hope the two concerned get a very long sentence with a recommendation from the judge for a minimum 20 years.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I agree. Unfortunately there's probably another couple of like minded morons in another town ready to do similar:(

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

It's terrible, no matter how long their sentence is - nothing can bring the boy back and undo the pain to family and friends.

And also, we all know that things like this will never be stamped out completely unfortunately :(

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

This sort of tragedy makes my heart bleed!

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I have to admit, I sometime wonder whether homophobes are actually sure of their *own* sexuality.

I feel sorry for the victim, and his family/friends..

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I think there is a lot in what you say. Bullies in denial.. and the macho way to show how wonderfully hetro you are is to beat up a weaker gay person.

I worked for a couple of years in Jersey and got to know a couple of gay guys who were built like the proverbial outhouses. In the time I knew them they didn't have any problems getting picked on because of their sexuality.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I'm from Huyton, born and bred. The people of Huyton are genuine hardworking people and where this happened is not in a poor area. I hope people realise that things like this can happen anywhere, although most would not want to admit it. This is the second such tragedy to happen in one town, anyone remember the Anthony Walker murder? Happened less than a mile away from this one.

My heart goes out to Michael and his family/friends.

I read a study a few weeks back that stated our local schools in the borough of Knowsley has the lowest rates of bullying in the UK - I somehow find this hard to believe looking at what has happened above :erm:

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

This kind of mindless stupidity is not limited by area or background and will never be stamped as no matter how much we may llike it to be. This is a tradegy for the man concerned and his family and friends and sadly they won't even get the comfort of a long sentence for the one's responsible. My experience of homophobes such as it is makes me think that the vast majority of them are threatened by gay men because they are not secure in their sexuality and even if they don't admit it realise anyone could be gay including themself they see beatings and more as a way of showing others they are not in anyway gay but doesn't help them when they are alone and in private where they can't beat away the idea or sometimes the feeling.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

i have to agree with the fact that a lot of homophobes are sexually frustrated in their own minds but theres a degree of education needed to combat this. Theres still a number of people that teach their kids its fine to treat Gay and Lesbian people in this mannor.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I don't really buy into the 'secretly gay' thing. I think it is giving some justification to actions of the person, which lessens the attack itself

It's as bad as the 'provocation' defence that used to happen (and maybe still does) whenever a gay person was attacked. 'S/He came on to me - rather than say no, I smashed a glass over their head'

It is classing being gay as being so bad, that someone had to resort to violence against it.

If a black person was attacked, would anyone accept a defence or a justification of the attacker being 'secretly black'?

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Me neither. I think it's just a mixture of stupidity, ignorance and bloody-mindedness.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Ben don't for one minute think i am in anyway trying to defend violence against anyone because of sexuality but i do think it is threatening for some he man to suddenly have that odd gay thought pop in to his head and to decide that the best way to deal with it is the same way he would deal with any personal problem which is to resort to physical violence and i see a few of those types of people though by and large they only seem to be handy when it comes to women or people they know damn well they can hurt with little or no risk to themselves in other words cowards.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

But then it not the gay thought is it? Usually those that would turn to violence against gay people, would probably do it to others as well

I am gay myself and have never been anything else. When I was growing up and having the odd 'straight' thought, I wouldn't suddently attack the nearest girl

There also enough straight people I have known over the years, that although they are not gay and would never consider it, do not suddenly attack a gay person if they 'look at them the wrong way' etc.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Right.

I thought this kind of thing had faded into oblivion, "Gay bashing". I thought it had ended. I suppose racialism has taken over somewhat.

This is just plain murder. By a complete idiot.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

What a hero.:rolleyes:

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I simply could not consider behaviour like that. I also don't buy into the secretly-gay idea but I am sure that there are plenty of ignorant yobs out there that would use any excuse to beat up on someone.
Look at the CCTV pictures we see on a regular basis of spontaneous and unprovoked attacks in the evening streets.

I'm hetero but have no problems with different strokes for different folks. Many years ago I had the priviledge of working with Quentin Crisp for a few months. A more flamboyant and dramatic gay you could not meet. Our lifestyles were very different but it would never have occurred to me to attack him for that difference.

There will always be individuals at the bottom of the food chain that react to anything different with violence. As a copper I knew in Wales once said "You can't educate pork"

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Fear of difference, and violent reaction to that fear to show that they are not afraid.

****.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I think it might not even be that. A lot of hetro men feel (or claim to feel) sick at the thought of 2 men kissing or doing more. Whilst the above unfortunate individual wasn't doing anything like that, it's likely his knuckledragging killer made the association and acted on that.

In no way does that justify what happened of course. But could be another possible explanation.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Strange, though, that they don't seem to mind two women kissing or doing more.

(and no, I am not being salacious or humourous - just pointing out a contradiction)

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Err... they shouldn't think about it then. :rolleyes: Most people don't like to think about their parents "doing more" so you just don't think about it... Shugar I just got an image in my head...... need some brain wash....:o:

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Now that made me LOL..

but I know what you mean......

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

monkey see, monkey do.... goes to show how far our 'civilized, multicultural and tolerant' society has evolved. obviously, some people feel very threatened by things they don't have the capacity to understand. I'm surprised some of them don't have bleeding knuckles from them being constantly dragged across the floor....

(note to those of a rather introverted disposition.... contrary to my alias, I'm not actually gay, so please don't beat me up!)

---------- Post added at 23:04 ---------- Previous post was at 23:01 ----------

might I also add, I'm a great supporter of Gay marriages... provided both girls are HOT!!! ;) <<<( that's a joke btw... but with a hint of seriousness in there!)

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I couldn't agree more Chris, education is essential in helping to combat these knuckle draggers but when they arrive home and hear one of other of their parents spouting hatred toward gay people I despair.
It used to be the same with racism until literally in the end it was the children who shamed their parents into adopting a more enlightened view, I'm just hoping that homophobia isn't too far behind.
For the life of me I cannot understand this sort of hatred, what are these morons worried about? :shrug:

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Lesbianism has always been more accepted than homosexuality in men. Even back as far as Queen Victorias time she refused to accept that anything like that happened between 2 women even tho it did.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I have feeling though that 2 women together are accepted by straight men for a VERY good reason

The way our society decides to try and label everything certainly doesn't help. Why should it ever matter who someone finds attractive? Surely it is who they are as person that should be the only concern

However it always seems to end up being anyone a bit different has that label shoved in front of them. I mean, how many times do you see 'gay celebrity' when referring to people like John Barrowman or Graham Norton, or similar for Martina Navratilova

Just because someone is gay or straight or whatever, doesn't mean they can't be a complete-something-which-the-filters-on-this-forum-would-stop

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Ben i totally agree with u

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

You're absoloutely right Ben. We have moved on since the 60s/ 70s when some celebrities would hide their sexuality for fear of the negative effect it would have on their career but we've still got some way to go.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Yes, that's odd really. Perhaps that's something the 'equality and diversity' police should get their teeth into?

After all, one never hears 'straight celebrity' used in the same way.

I would suggest that certain celebs have used the 'coming out' publicity in the past to try and boost flagging careers. I think they only have themselves to blame if they end up with a label after that.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

it even goes as far as relating to where us gay people drink. A Str8 friend even said that the media shouldnt relate to pubs as Gay bars and Gay clubs as its labelling and wrong.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

hmmm not sure about that, I have gay friends who seek out gay bars when they're elsewhere because they prefer it. I know it's labelling but if it is descriptive of an establishment that is gay friendly then I don't really see how it can be viewied in the same light as the unnecessary labelling of celebrities. :shrug:

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

A lot of straight women prefer to go to gay bars too.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

damn... thats sad! you're not even safe with your friends...

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I personally think the action has no justification. I think the theory behind it is simply that a lot of people are bought up thinking prejudice against gays is good, and knowing they themselves are gay, they blame homosexuality, and attack other gays as a result.

However, prejudice is never justified.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I think the whole 'secretly gay' thing was just a way of getting back at 'gay bashers', as if it was felt shaming them would somehow stop their prejudice.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

But why should they be labed Gay bars and Gay Clubs? why shouldnt there be just clubs and pubs where everyone is free to drink and act as they please in any?

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

At a guess, because it makes it easier to know what you are getting into.

For example, there are pubs that specialise in football supporters. They are quite often labelled with huge signs proclaiming 'Big Screen' 'Rangers v Celtic tonight' or similar. Now if you are looking for a quiet and romantic night out with a special friend that label makes it easy to choose somewhere else.

Labels are not always a negative thing. And you don't always want to share other people's ideas of a good time.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

It's nice in theory, but we aren't that far yet.

I remember just after Queer as Folk got broadcast, all the hen parties used to go to Canal Street cos of what they thought it was like when it was on TV, and because it was safe

Because they came, all the straight guys came looking for the hen parties and it slowly decended from there so that some bars became no-go.

Luckily they have all moved on, but it is still going to take a while

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

With the highest possible respect I'd prefer not to be in a pub known for being a 'gay bar'. Althought I would do nothing to prevent gay couples being together I would not feel comfortable being around them. I understand that it's me with the problem and not them, however I'd like to be able to make the distinction so I could do to places where I wouldn't feel so awkward.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

You're looking it at from the wrong perspective mate with all due respect. Although you have gay friendly establishments you don't have to be gay to go in there and enjoy yourself. Inside you'll find a mixture of folk with the same ambition as most of us have when we go out... have fun. Take folk at face value, having it uppermost in our mind that they are gay is no better than constantly thinking that the person you're talking to is coloured or has ginger hair..:D It's not that important at the end of the day.;)

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Not sure that I am....I'm not particularly a fan of camp male behaviour (I feel exactly the same about 'lager-lout' behaviour too), I've only ever been to that sort of bar 3 times and I didn't feel comfortable there at all. Maybe it was just that particular place or those certain nights but I won't be going back. I'm happy with the places I usually go to anyway.

In any case I'm not talking about 'gay friendly' bars which are different from the specific 'gay bars' I think we're on about.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

i wont drink in the brick layers arms ,don't want any one thinking i'm a builder;)

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

It's nothing to do with people thinking you are of that persuasion. It's all to do with what you're comfortable with. For example I'm not interested in a bar with loud chavvy music blasting out, so I won't go there either because I won't enjoy a night out there.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

what happened to live and let live ? i have gay neighbours and they are a1.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I used to frequent a gay bar in Manchester years ago. It was one of the friendliest and safest bars I've ever been in. They had a great video juke box as well which helped the atmosphere.

As to all the comments re secret gays beating up on gays, how does that tally with those disgusting **** who beat a poor Goth girl to death. Were they secret Goths?? I don't think so, they are just hate filled morons.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

There was once a meet in Manchester of some members of the predecessor to Cable Forum - we went out to the bars in Cable Street & it was one of the best nights out I have had, great music, fantastic atmosphere - and, as far as I can remember, no more overt affection than you'd expect from hetero couples in a similar environment.

I have worked with several 'gay' people, male & female, who were confident enough to be honest about their sexuality. They could be just treated as colleagues once that was 'out of the way' & the whole thing was much easier.

Why anyone could kill another person for being different in any way, be it Goth, Emo, Hippy, Biker - etc, etc, is a mystery to me ...

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

You may well be right basa, re the secret gay theory, it is just a theory to explain otherwise incomprehensible behaviour of the mindless thug who murdered this young lad.

The comparison you make is more of a mob hate, macho, mindless violence, peer goading, crowd mentality..... call it what you will... just as incomprehensible and sickening but to me it's on a different level than the individual hating somebody because of a difference..... and carrying out murder with no entourage to encourage.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

i used to run a gaybar for 9 months and ud be suprised of the str8 people that used to come in for a laff and have a good time. We used to have a large group of Army guys come in with their girlfriends on Friday and Saturday nights and have a laff and mingle, never no bother.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

You ought to come down to Brighton Chris, years ago when god was a boy we used to have a few exclusively gay bars and clubs, but nowadays there doesn't seem to be exclusively gay bars anymore, everyone seems to go wherever the best pubs and clubs are irrespective of sexuality.
I'm sure there are some places with a higher gay clientele, but as someone said earlier a lot of the straight girls like to go there, which then attracts straight lads on the pull, which in the end means everyone mixes together:)
Viva la differance:D

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Ok to set it straight i was not in anyway defending the killing of this lad with what i said and there is absolutely no excuse for hurting one human being because they are different to you no matter what that difference is. As for the gay bar thing i don't really care what a pub is supposed to be as long as it has a good atomosphere and doesn't rip me off for a glass of coke :). I think in this day and age we are getting way too caught up in the whole labelling ourself thing and from what i see with a lot of the kids these days they have to label themself with one group or another to fit in seems it is no longer good enough to be yourself which is a shame.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I must say I was always lil narrow minded regarding gays people but would never think bashing them would be a good idea, since working where I am now I have met many gay people and I must say they are just like any normal person so when I was reading this I couldn't help but feel so bad for the family and poor chap, he wasn't abnormal he was a person like anyone and it makes me sick.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I honestly think the UK should bring back corporal punishment as it would bring down crime rate and i do still believe that the USA has the best method.. if someone murders someone then they themself should be forced to give up their life.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

funny thier crime rates are mostly higher than ours ;)

as to what happened they should lock them up and throw away the keys sadly they wont :(

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I'll second that roger, the US has the harshest penal system in the western world but it hasn't made them any safer as a nation.
I've no doubt that if capital and corporal punishment really did deter crime other western nations would adopt it, but it doesn't in my opinion it just brutalizes society as a whole.
But where I do disagree with our system are the paltry sentences, when the death penalty was abolished in the 60s part of the proviso was that in cases where the black cap would've came out, life in jail would mean life and no parole.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7872511.stm

This is what I don't understand...

Since when was there any sort of link between homosexuality and paedophillia, which is what I believe the above is implying?

Unless they are referring to a limited level of intelligence which would cause a misconception? In which case I don't think they should be pandering to it.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I thought that was the implication a lot of the time (Unfortunately) Especially when certain newspapers report abuse cases

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

It is Ben but then certain newspapers don't have any intelligent people working for them hence most of their content designed to scare people and scapegoat others.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

There crime rates are higher per head than us because theres more of them.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

If you are talking per head figures, then the difference in population is irrelevant, because they are expressed as number of crimes for each member of population.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

I don't think there would be half as much support for the death penalty if people felt that sentences were appropriate and that prison was a punishment rather then the rest it is now. It is easy to point the finger at the red top s and say they exaggerate the comfy conditions but i have heard too many prison officers past and present say the same things and it is wrong. Those who say prison isn't about revenge are right to a point but there has to be a degree of revenge in the penal system in order to help victims feel more secure and what worries me if we continue as we are is that more and more people will not feel any real punishment is served by being sent to prison and will decide to dish out some good ol mob justice a situation i do not want to see happening. Where there is no doubt someone has commited a murder life should mean life with no chance of parole whatsoever thats only fair.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

rubbish

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Your eloquent and lucid rebuttal has convinced me..... ;)

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

Sentencing is a difficult call. I'm in favour of 'ethical' sentences. If you give someone 10 years then they should serve the 10. However, I can understand that in reality it makes prisoners easier to manage if they know that good behaviour can get them time off. That must make life a lot easier for the prison warders.

Still, perhaps we're approaching this the wrong way? Maybe bad behaviour should buy them extra time rather than the other way around.

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

that would make it seem fairer to those watching even if it meant the same time served in real terms

though i still feel life should mean life in most cases

Re: Teenager 'killed for being gay'
 

In situations like this I only wish it was eye for an eye but I understand why it can't be that way, I agree with most people what ever sentence people get they should serve, as they gave up all rights when they committed the offense.