Christianity a History
 

Now showing on Ch4

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/c...nity-a-history

Looks interesting..I'll give it a whirl and see if it's interesting..

Re: Christianity a History
 

Yep I think I'll be watching next week.

Re: Christianity a History
 

TBH as I believe in evolution, creationism doesnt appeal. In today's society where science has a strong hold to believe in an omnipotent being is in my personal belief a bit hard to swallow.
Whilst I have no qualm with any form of religion persay to follow a 2000 year old nursery rhyme is a little strange to say the least.
I shall not have the time to tune in as I'm a waiting on the 72 virgins and moses to pop round for a fish supper and a glass of vino tinto and a crusty loaf :erm:

Re: Christianity a History
 

No mention of creationism,virgin births or Moses in this first show.Just an examination of the impact of the birth of Christianity on Judaism and the resulting persecution of the Jews of Europe.

Interesting to hear what Jews actually think of Christ...

Re: Christianity a History
 

Missed this...will watch it on 4OD..

Re: Christianity a History
 

I'm a bit dubious about some of the presenters but the first episode was good.

Re: Christianity a History
 

On a similar vein, has anyone been watching 'Around the World in 80 faiths'? I missed some of the second but I really enjoy watching Pete Owen Jones - not your typical Anglican priest.
In the first episode he went to the funeral of a woman who died 20+ years ago and went to a witches coven in Sydney.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Around the world in 80 faiths is available on series stack IIRC. I like Peter Owen Jones as a presenter, he did something very good two or three years ago.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Extreme Pilgrim is the other one of his I've seen. Excellent series.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Naughty, but funny. :rofl::angel:

Re: Christianity a History
 

Found a BBC Four clip of Pete OJ in 2005, looking somewhat different :)

Re: Christianity a History
 

Never heard of Extreme Pilgrim, what I watched was The Lost Gospels. That was 2006 or 2007 I think and has been repeated since. Sounds good though.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Yes, why let finding out about something get in the way of a good prejudice......;)

The program is about the history of the Christian faith, looking at its origins, development and turbulent past - not about it's validity/relevance.

Re: Christianity a History
 

There is little relevance of the christian faith in my life and there certainly isnt no need to validate a 2000 year old nursery rhyme.

If people need to believe in something then that's fine but lest we forget that Christians were the biggest war mongers that this planet has probably seen.

Repressing peoples belief's by getting them to convert to Christianity\Catholicism by any means.

Re: Christianity a History
 

i like a bit of sci fi but i have my limits ,so i wont be watching.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Individuals writing off people's sincere belief systems as a 'nursery rhyme' (although I'm not sure how much of the Bible rhymes) is one very good reason why programmes like this are a good idea.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Nursery rhyme?What one would that be? :confused:

Jesus existed..it's an historical fact found in many,many histories of the period.For you to say he doesn't exist is to fly in the face of truth.

Now if you don't believe in God that's fine,neither do I but I'd never deny that Christ existed.I'd deny that he was the son of a god but not that Jesus lived and somehow managed to become the cause of a worldwide new religion..

Re: Christianity a History
 

Don't want to interfere with the christian theme, but there is a a documentary about the Muslim contributions to science on the iplayer

Pitty this wasn't around during the kilroy-silk incident

Re: Christianity a History
 

Sadly nowhere near as good as Jim's other series but worth a watch.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Here's a point "."

Here's the relevance of your comment " " :D

As explained before, the program is not about the relevance of Christianity, it's about it's history and how it progressed through the ages, with lots of (imho) little known information - historical fact, not theism. You never know, you might learn something to back up your prejudices. :p:

It's like saying someone saying they wouldn't watch a documentary on wars in the 20th Century because they weren't involved in them. ;)

Nice straw man, btw, with the "war mongers" and "repressing".

Re: Christianity a History
 

True of 6 out of 8. The trailers and blurb make it sounds like the last 2 are about relevence and questions.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Thanks for that - I was only going on the one I had seen.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Frankly saying Christianity has no relevance to one's life is rather wide of the mark.Christianity has had a vast impact in every aspect of our history and lives even if we personally may no longer have belief in it's basic tenets of a divine being offering a flesh and blood son up as a sacrifice for all our sins...

It's effects reverberate around the world and refusing to watch the program saying that the history of the faith of your ancestors has no relevance is akin to denying who you are and where you come from.

Re: Christianity a History
 

i found this rather interesting

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki...n_Christianity

Re: Christianity a History
 

It appears to confuse/interchange "Christian" with "Catholic" (imho) (speaking as a lapsed Catholic).

Re: Christianity a History
 

I was brought up as a roman catholic. I went to church, I was confirmed, I was baptised. This came about because my parents chose the follow the christian faith and wanted to include me in what they believed in.

I got to the age of about 14 and made choices for myself without interference from others.
Being of what I assume sound mind I am able to make decisions and choices for myself.

Maybe I used the wrong word when I said nursery rhyme. The word I should have used was fable.
My personal interpretation of how christianity came about is this. Although I could go into a lot more detail I hope you get my gist.

2000 or more years ago a mother (or father) told their child a story. That story was about a man who could perform miracles, turned water into wine and fed 5000 with a couple of fish and a loaf, died and rose a few days later etc. Well this child thought "WOW! what a story" and this FABLE stayed with the child into adulthood. Now this child became a learned person, he wrote about this story that was told to him as a child.
Word spread about the land and the story changed in its wording along the way (a bit like Chinese whispers) and people in around the land started to believe that this was not a story but was an actuality. Some people wrote scriptures and tablets to perpetuate what they thought were true. And so there is my theory on how christianity started.

I do not disapprove what people choose to do with their lives and whether or not what they believe in is true or as I feel a story.
I have an opinion.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

We all see and hear what christianity has to say, it is not wide of the mark to say it has no relevancy in one's life, it has none in mine. I do not deny my heritage or where I come from, in fact I am quite happy in my little world where evolution and science rule.
Under the guise of christianity and from the mouth of the pope (and this is proven fact) the knights Templars from around 1100-1300 ravaged, pillaged and killed all in the name of chrisendom. There is christianity for you, cold blooded killers who waged wars in the name of God and the pope.
Leap forward to the 20th and 21st centuary although not waging wars, many of Gods foot soldiers, men of the cloth, preist's whatever you want to call them have been convicted of crimes of abuse against children. Covered up by catholism, the pope and others in the Vatican that coverts christianity and what it believes in.
You can argue that in all walks of life this happens, which it does but it isnt covered up when people find out.

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------

Had a quick read and yea I generally agree with those comments.

To use a word from the christian faith but in todays age christianity has a HOLIER than THOU attitude. It seems to forget its past yet its past deeds have been written about for the best part of 1500 years (or more)

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------

if the program is not about the relevance of christianity then where is the relevance in the program?

I'm a bit to long in the tooth to learn something, my prejudices dont need backing up. One day the truth will come out and it will all be seen as a sham, the longest "long con" game in the history of man.

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Wow - you really have made up your mind, haven't you?

All those Goths, Vikings, Vandals, Mongols, and people like Pol Pot and Hitler were just fronts for Christianity - at last, the truth comes out; Christianity has caused all the world's problems.

btw, if one stops learning, one starts dying (imho) - those who do not learn from history, are (usually) bound to repeat it.

I'm over 50, and l love finding out new stuff - relevant or not.

Re: Christianity a History
 

I havnt made up my mind, not at all. At 42 what I have gleamed over those years has brought me to where I am at the moment.
I never said christianity caused all of the worlds problems but probably from 800 - 1700\1750 in the better part of the then known world they did cause the vast majority of the problems that then ravaged chrisendom.

I never stop learning my friend, (bit of a contradiction I know) as you say when one does one starts to die. This is why if you could show me actual proof, rock solid proof and you'll need to get me an audience with "him" for that I would change my opinion.
Relevant or not, discussions like this are enlightening, it allows all parties to air their beliefs. It helps people to understand each other.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Anyway folks as regards the program in question I shall probably watch it as I find these type of documentaries fascinating, to be honest the religion itself doesn't come into it for me,
I just find it interesting as to how it all started.
Another program of the same ilk that I've been watching recently is "Science and Islam", very interesting and well worth a watch.

Re: Christianity a History
 

And clearly some don't.

In any case this is not going to turn in to this week's religion bashing thread. It's about the programme. Those with the usual anti-christianity agenda should probably wait until the usual thread comes along.

Re: Christianity a History
 

I think alferret's point about the Jesus myth is a legitimate opinion to have, but not one I would agree with (unless you're distinguishing between the different viewpoints). It could have been a direction for the programme but it was filmed from a modern day Jewish perspective which I think was good for programme. It's got a different presenter every week, so there's probably the odd one anyone would find fascinating. The only other thing is I would say contrary to what other posters have said on here the series has very little to do with the history of faith of ancestors or otherwise, at this point in the series it seems to be very much about history or history of the religion, not faith.

Ann Widdecombe on selected for the reformation really made me laugh :D. I'm sure that one will be a good 'un though.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Ok what is the history of Christian faith as opposed to the history of Christianity?How can one be a Christian without faith?

I'd have said they were synonymous myself.You cannot have one without the other so you cannot separate the two history wise.. :confused:

Re: Christianity a History
 

Well one being a set of personal beliefs and the other being a religion. It would have been interesting to have a history of christian faith but I can't imagine anyone but Terry Jones or the Bishop of Durham doing something like that.

As for your other question, how can be a christian without faith? I would say in the more specific meaning it is possible to be a christian without faith, it's just mostly the reformation that screwed that up. That would then make you a christian without big f faith but these views being personalised ones would then be faith (other meaning).

Re: Christianity a History
 

I've heard that notion before and it's never struck me as anything other than absurd.

Christianity is based on faith. We are rewarded for having it. No amount of spin or 'mistranslation' can change that. I simply fail to see how anyone can be a Christian without faith. I haven't seen the programme but the bits I did catch would seem to back this up.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Of course it would strike you as absurd, just like if I said the same thing to the people I was brought up with, as it seems you participate in a similar brand of Christianity as they do, where faith was said several times in the same sentance. To someone else it would make more sense though.

The programme was about the historical Jesus or whatever you want to call it and it was from a Jewish perspective. In that sense (much of but not all of) it was history rather theology or "in the ancient world citizen x might have thought y"). So it was history, not faith. A programme on faith could have been made and that would have been interesting.

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To be honest it would seem absurd to anyone brought up with the bible - faith is the very basic tenet of Christianity no matter how you look at it. I'm very curious to know which demonination you're referring to - in my 7 years experience I have never met a Christian who does not hold faith.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Of course the other meaning of faith is not mutually exclusive to Christianity. On the other hand there is a great difference on emphasis of this meaning of faith. It's not like unitarians, quakers, catholics or whatever believe in sola fide. Yet most protestants bang on about it endlessly. It's only really like that in common conversation as we live in a country that was on that side in the reformation. It's been a trendy phrase since the reformation because (a) it promotes that aspect of protestantism (b) people have a phobia of the r word and by instead emphasising on the personal beliefs aspect of it it again reinforces protestantism.

I just said I think it's possible to be a christian without faith. It's not especially likely with how the balance of christianity falls but there you go. Of course there are going to be people that say you need faith alone or whatever else, if people didn't believe that we wouldn't have the reformation and all would be hunky dory.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course :D

But then this leaves me wondering what on earth your definition of a Christian is if you believe it's possible some don't have faith....

Re: Christianity a History
 

you need to have the faith that the faithless are as faithful as there lack of faith allows, there-for there faithless faith makes them just as faithful as the next man [ you see its simple] ;)

Re: Christianity a History
 

Perhaps he means the token Christian who wants to have a church wedding and a church Christening but doesn't actually have that much faith?

Re: Christianity a History
 

Finally got round to watching the first episode...

A brilliant documentary which exposes more realistic facts than the rewritten history taught by the curches of the world.. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series...

Re: Christianity a History
 

Someone who believes in God. All the stuff about Jesus as the son of God being an optional extra module, as is faith alone and the other solas.

Re: Christianity a History
 

On that basis are you suggesting satan is a Christian?

And isn't *believing in something* the same as having faith it exists?

Re: Christianity a History
 

Satan isn't human. I'll refer that one whether angels or other entities are christians upstairs. In anycase if one believed in the more narrow definition of faith the answer would be irrelevent as they couldn't have faith in the same way.

No, *believing in something* isn't always the same as having faith it exists. I've already said I think faith as a general set of religious beliefs, christians have. The more specific definitions of faith of doing something with specific meaning, of which hundreds of years have been spent arguing about it, no. People seem to spend a lot of time saying they have more faith than someone else, but to me it sounds to me as something more never reached, again which is why I said I don't think most Christians have it. Maybe you disagree, maybe you think every true Christian is a Knight of faith. The vast majority of Christians do say they have it in some way or other and I'm not really interested in telling them their beliefs are wrong or they must/must not have it to be true Christians. It's not really possible summing up any of these in short messages on an internet forum.

My original point that seemed to have been missed was a large part of the series is history, or history of the religion. There's nothing funny about that, a book I've read was called The History of Christianity for that very reason. A point about a history of faith is it would be a documentary in large part on what individuals in the past believed. If one wanted to make a documentary about the narrower definition of faith that'd be pretty much probably end up a history of protestant theology though. I'm sure Ann Widdecombe will mention some of this in a few weeks :).

Re: Christianity a History
 

So your criteria for being a Christian is just someone who believes in God? Curious...

I have to say you're the first person I've ever come across who thinks faith is not a requirement for being a Christians. Still, it takes all sorts I guess :shrug:

Re: Christianity a History
 

In an easily and to the point short summary of it, yes.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Hang on..Don't Jews believe in God..Muslims as well?

Sorry but there's got to be more to it than that...:confused:

Re: Christianity a History
 

According to demented's logic, they're Christians too.

Bizarre :erm:

Re: Christianity a History
 

Bingo. :angel:. In anycase why would it seem strange that Judaism and Islam have so much in common with Christianity once you strip out the emphasis one religion has on Jesus? They are the same more or less. Christianity and Islam are both descended from Judaism, one of the many points of the programme.

Christian is just a label. It could just as easily be muslim. It could be xtian, it could be something else.

Yeap. They are in a sense. Anyway I don't know why you find it so weird, my RE teacher was a Christian and was of the view that many of the same religions amount to the same thing. I've met other people with similar views.

Re: Christianity a History
 

As I don't want to take this off-topic I'd ask you bring that up in the next anti-religion thread so I can address it properly. But you have no idea how spectacularly wide of the mark you with that ;)

I wonder how saaf_london will react to the news that he, "in a sense", is Christian :erm:

Re: Christianity a History
 

I won't repeat my rants about how the word has become useless.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Well I don't want to dwell on the point any longer but people did ask. The programme is still available on catch-up for anyone who wants to watch but in warning a summary of it is available on channel 4 and if people are offended by what I've said they probably will be by the programme itself.

Re: Christianity a History
 

He also pointed out that Jesus and his disciples were devout Jews..Not Christians.That Christianity came about through the actions of St Paul. :erm:

Re: Christianity a History
 

"Upon this rock I will build my church". Matthew 16:18.

So the Christian Church (Or for me, the Catholic Church) was born.:angel:

Re: Christianity a History
 

I tell you what.. why don't some of you watch the programme and see for yourselves?

Re: Christianity a History
 

Second programme about to start.:)

Re: Christianity a History
 

I just did Maggy, but I feel i need to watch the first episode just to get the gist of things.
I still feel the same tho, and some parts of the program just reinforced my opinion.

Re: Christianity a History
 

The episodes are separate. Totally different presenter, different viewpoint, different message, different time period.

Re: Christianity a History
 

Just watched tonight's program, very interesting Portillo did a good job, next weeks program covers Christianity in the Dark Ages, a great series so far.
BTW anyone who thinks this series is going to be about proselytizing religion, think again, in this episode Portillo made it clear he is "a lapsed Catholic".

Re: Christianity a History
 

It was a good programme. Shame it didn't mention the meteorite.

Re: Christianity a History
 

I think he made the connection between the 'Christianity' of Christ and the followers of his teachings after his death and the politicised 'Christianity' of St Paul and Constantine very well indeed. :erm:

Re: Christianity a History
 

Enjoyed today's helping as well. :)

Re: Christianity a History
 

Just about to start...The Crusades for this helping..:)

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:01 ----------

Hmmm!

So 9/11 is about the Crusades 1000 years ago...Todays troubles in the Middle East have their basis in the Crusades.

I think I'm going to have to VOD this one just to double check...

Anyway I'm not sure about next week's offering.Anne Widdicombe's veiwpoint on the Reformation.

Re: Christianity a History
 

And the Crusades have their basis from the Islamic invasion of Southern Europe and Jerusalem.

Re: Christianity a History
 

salvation through slaughter----isn't religion great:(

Re: Christianity a History
 

Yes, because the Europeans had first dibs on Jerusalem, it being part of mainland Europe, and nothing to do with the Arabs....;)

Re: Christianity a History
 

Well they're in Eurovision, and play football within UEFA - So it must be part of Europe?? Musn't it???