VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

An article on the register today indicates that vm are going to put the 50meg service out at a premium

The firm announced strong underlying profits today and said it expects its forthcoming 50Mbit/s network upgrade to further distinguish it as a premium/expensive ISP.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/07/virgin_q2_2007/

No real surprise there but not sure they want to be establishing a mind set of being an "expensive" provider.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

but you can go with that in all walks of life, rolls royce and bentleys, premium cars and expensive yet people still buy them, news servers as another example, giganews is a premoium service people still pay for that, i guess the word is quality

i see it as them trying to say they are a good quality provider being premium rather than being an expensive solution

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

premium is the word to use, expensive is not

premium suggests better quality, expensive suggests higher cost for no reason

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

How can they class 50 meg as a premium service if they have already ruined it by putting STM on it.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Just by putting a Premium price on it ;)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I would be prepared to pay a "premium" price for a "premium" service, i.e. not such silly STM and poor upload speeds. I would love 50Mb as much as the next person, but would not be prepared to pay £45-£50 a month for a service that is so heavily restricted and poor upload speeds. I hope VM manage to sort the cloners out by the time 50Mb comes around dont get freeloaders on that network aswell and ruin it for the people who will be prepared to pay the cost VM charge.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Well i for one would not pay a Premium price so they can rip me off with STM

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I still do not see the point of them needing STM on DOCSIS3 for god sake it can easily handle heavy down loaders doing 50MB. i notice there no mention of the limits on 50MB probably be 8GB down and 2GB up.

Makes me wonder when 24Hour STM is coming. and then will be the time that virgin can no longer claim there service is unlimited.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I will try it I think just so I can show off lol

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I'm pretty sure it'll still be a success, look how many of us are happy to fork out for the current top tier, offering far less.
Its going to be more than twice as fast, for less than double the cost.. i'm sure VM are aware of this, they've got boffins y'know lol

I'm not saying its great value, but there are the uninformed few that'll never visit these forums, who seem to have money to burn & a need to tell everyone that they're still the king of the hill.

Bragging rights rule..

:D nuff said lol

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Despite the crap that VM pump out to the public, they dont have the bandwith available to support 50Mbit, even with docsis3, they over subscribe, they dont upgrade their backhaul to the network, endless loop, much easier just to STM users and blame "downloaders" instead of admitting they dont have the money to do any sort of real upgrades :td:

You're limits are not that far off with the 50Mbit...

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:55 ----------

And those are the people VM actually want, the "stupid" users who will subscribe to a service just for bragging rights and wont use it :dunce:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

DOCSIS 3 can handle the speeds but as Trax has said the rest of the network cant. If anyone thinks VM will invest in the rest of the network then they are wrong. The same over-subscribed area's will continue to suffer the same plight as at some point down the line the DOCSIS 2 and DOCSIS 3 traffic will merge and the same problem will rear its ugly head. VM need to spend millions sorting out thier aging backhaul and national network and i cant see why they would go ahead with it when its much easier to blame the downloaders and STM the hell out of thier products. I did at one time beleive 50meg would come without STM but its looking more and more likely that VM will ruin another potentially great product.

Impz

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I can't see VM making changes to the core network until other providers are realistically able to offer a comparable service. I have noticed slow speeds to my servers in the USA which I know are capable of providing 30Mb speeds.

Be may offer a similar speed, but don't forget that they only offer it to people living 5Km from an unbundled exchange.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

To get the full 24meg you need to be dammed close to the exchange so realistically its prob about 500m from the exchange.

Impz

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Not all of us, I downgraded to the 2 meg service. Saved quite a bit so far. Unless STM is removed then I won't upgrade at all, period.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Looks like you won't ever be upgrading then! lol

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Yep, I agree. So all I get to do is save £35/month :p:

A Little "back of the fag packet" maths. If VM have 3.8m customers and say just 25% are on the 2meg service, that's lost income of just over £33 MILLION a month....


...so that STM really is cost effective isn't it?

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

The vast majority of customers are on the lower tiers and a lot of the income actually comes from the TV side of the business, which most people forget about, they pay a damn site more for TV than they would ever do for Broadband.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Free TV with a phone line must be raking the cash in for sure. The whole focus on broadband is because, unlike TV, it is profitable. TV keeps punters so you can sell the stuff that actually makes the dollars to them, broadband and telephony.

With most people on bundles the difference between what they spend on broadband and what they spend on TV is probably minimal, especially with TV M costing next to nothing while BB M is still £18GBP / month.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

As a happy Be customer (as well as a VM customer, Bulldog/Pipex Customer, Demon Customer etc.) I can tell you that my Bebox syncs at.

1,217 / 6,684 (down/up).

It doesn't matter how many people tell you that you are guaranteed to get the full upstream rate (Be not being one of them, I never have, but still more than happy with 1,217, If I connect with my Dlink ADSL2+ modem I get just over 900)


At the site where I get the 6.5Mbit down and 1-and-a-bit up I have had other much less stable connections that have all been much slower.

Here, (on VM) even if I did have a BT landline, Be isn't available and I get full speed on the 20MBit service anyway.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Can I just remind you that STM is not about saving money or about costs, but about preserving the customer experience. :)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Do i detect sarcasm? :p:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

:LOL:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

the vast majority of "profit" comes from broadband the tv side by the time sky have had there cut is a very low margin

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Is it still the case that VM are doing nothing to upgrade their networks? I know friends that have had their local 'green boxes' upgraded. I think the belief is that lots of 20Mb customers will upgrade to the 50Mb package thus relieving DOCSIS2.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

The beliefs are wrong on several levels. VM have introduced another 40% network capacity this year so far I believe. In addition the 20Mbit will be moved to the same hardware as the DOCSIS 3 product, albeit not in DOCSIS 3 mode. Also there is no relieving of DOCSIS 2 as the VM network doesn't run DOCSIS 2. It runs 1.0 as far as I'm aware.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Could you perhaps explain or link me to something that will help me ascertain what exactly you mean by the VM network. I thought this was a global thing, whereby the entire infrastructure of the network owned by VM would be operational on DOCSIS3. Or is it portioned up into segments so that customers are running on the DOCSIS3 network until the UBR, when it's a different signal modulation to be more efficient?

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Thats my point -- which i quite CLEARLY stated in my other post.

STM is staying. Get used to it. "50meg" will of course have different rules, and please don't argue that with me.. it will, PERIOD.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I'm definately not getting it if it has a Period.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Imagine the PMS


http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscart...es/sean22l.jpg

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Think you don't understand what DOCSIS 3 is. DOCSIS 3 is a method for channel bonding multiple RF streams. At the RF level DOCSIS 3 downstreams on the VM network are EuroDOCSIS, and for now the upstreams are using standard DOCSIS 1 / 1.1.

The entire network does not migrate to DOCSIS 3 nor is it more efficient, you simply have a larger single data pipe, consisting of 4 bonded 8MHz channels, so can offer a single 200Mbit channel to a node instead of the previous 51Mbit per channel. It means higher data rates possible and better statistical contention as each modem takes less of each logical channel.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Now you have gone an done it. The sales people will love that, Stuff EVEN more customers on to it, But hey don't worry Captain STM will come to the rescue :rolleyes: :D

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Is the relevence of DOCSIS of any form purely on the final leg of the network anyway - ie between the UBR & the subscribers modem?

There is also the core of the network which I assume with be ethernet based and then peering with other providers.

If VM don't invest in those areas as well then all we will see is that the technology between the UBR and the subscriber will improve but the rest of the network will not without further investment.

Now I knwo the UBR isn't actually in the green box - so I assume each green box aggregates back to a single UBR port somewhere? Or does each piece of Coax to a home connect to a seperate UBR port?

Are the UBRs local to the area they serve or all held in a few central locations?

Does the roll out of DOCSIS 3 require new equipment in the local green boxes too or just at the UBR?


Does DOCISIS 3 employ any more advanced security to try to eradicate those stealing bandwidth?

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Remember that the 20Mbit modems will also be moving to the same platform, just registered onto a single downstream rather than all 4 - DOCSIS 3 is backwards compatible.

I doubt they'll stuff too much on it, can you imagine what the press would do to them if people saw congestion on their (at a guess) nearly £50 a month 50Mbit? ;)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Yeah, I understand what DOCSIS3 is, I read all about it, but I saw you saying in another post that VM would never use it as the backbone, that's why I am confused. Forget I said anything :P

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Yep between CMTS / uBR and modem.

Yes but this is the much cheaper bit. The cost of the last mile is several orders of magnitude higher.

Each piece of coax is aggregated at the nearest green box, from there it goes to x other green boxes where it's amplified and aggregated together and eventually it goes into a nodal cabinet where it's combined with other coax going into that cabinet. Each node is between 250 and 2500 homes passed by the network so potentially that is how many customers are sharing a uBR port.

Just to make it more complicated multiple nodes can share a single port, and to make it worse still you can supply more than one downstream to a single node.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial

Depends, they vary from local to 'regional'. For example Basingstoke is served by equipment in Reading and the Basingstoke hub just has optical repeaters which relay signals to and from Reading, while Horndean, a pretty small village in Hampshire, has its' own uBRs in its' own hubsite.

Depends on the area. Some areas will not have the required 'room' on the network for the extra 32MHz that DOCSIS 3 deployment requires. These areas will either have to wait for analogue to be switched off, or need network upgrade which will require work in the green boxes. Generally DOCSIS 3 will only need work at the headends / hubsites and the new equipment will be in the same racks as the legacy uBRs running alongside them.

Yes, it has all the BPI+ features that DOCSIS 1.1 has along with some additional features. Attempting to steal bandwidth from a DOCSIS 3 network is several orders of magnitude harder than the legacy networks.

*phew*

Ah...

Nah the backbone will be SDH with n x 10Gbit Ethernet riding on it :)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Well the press don't give a fig about the 20 meg on £34.00 a month so no change there then. :rolleyes:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

The fastest broadband in the UK performing like gack might get their attention though ;)

VM will seriously be watching the capacity on the EuroDOCSIS 3 downstreams there like hawks, I've little doubt of that.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

actually I think VM are right in the current broadband market. Samknows recently did a diagnosis of the major isps, and BT broadband performed horribly on non port 80 traffic even worse than the famous plusnet.

Ipstream adsl the way the wholesale prices work and considering the variable quality depending on line length I now see it as a budget model, its attractive to light users only, and heavier users generally get heavily restricted or have to pay a very heavy premium eg. £80 month for 8meg unlimited on zen subject to line quality. BT broadband and 90% of the adsl market are all concentrating on customers who pay under £10-15, sky willingly selling broadband at a loss just to retain tv customers so the broadband market on the adsl side has become very budget based. To keep costs down most are employing traffic shaping much worse than STM with a few exceptions, sky is the only major adsl isp that currently has no traffic shaping however they are now going to be enforcing their monthly caps and they still have line length restrictions.

I said a while back VM need to model their broadband as a premium product because technically its far superior to xDSL, the only mistake I think they doing at the moment is STM, if they can remove that when docsis3 is rolled out then they have a winner.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I'm interested in why you discuss BT when a better comparison to VM is the LLU operators that cover their areas 100% such as Be, and I'm also interested in why you mentioned Sky enforcing their monthly caps, I'm not aware of them doing such a thing and even if they did £10 for unlimited service is hardly a bank breaker.

50Mbit will have STM I'm afraid, no removal, no negotiation, the rollout of it is complete with STM.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Yep, price has changed to reflect this though, of course, now the 50Mbit is no longer a premium product ;)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I expect they have put it UP then :p:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

You must have some sources to know pricing, VM themselves don't have a confirmed pricing for it last I heard, though I'm not sure what the peeps from Lenny Henry country are paying.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

What have the West Midlands got to do with it? I would have thought it would be the same price everywhere? :erm:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I thought the trials were somewhere in Kent.

Lenny Henry is from Dudley.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

;)

There has been very strong hints floating about the net over the last few days that there are some more trial areas, Dudley was one that was talked about in those conversations. I cannot post links due to the Forums the info was posted on are closed forums.

However they could as is the norm be complete and utter rubbish as some of there past info has been later discovered to be inaccurate and a lot of chinese whispers. Time will tell :)

Personally i think its all a load of rubbish, I am sure we will find out when VM decide to release the information.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Actually it has been known (by VM bods) what they were going to charge, for quite some time.

Amusingly, as always, alex denied that STM trials were being run for 50Mbit and denied that it had rolled out at the end of the trial ;)

For most it was blatantly obvious that 50Mbit would not be STM free and wouldnt exactly be a premium product like they apparently say.

But yes, i do have some good sources...and indeed the price has gone down, though not by much and with STM the price/premium just is not going to be worth it, still, some muppets will still sign up for it just for bragging rights, those are the customers who VM want though, people who buy it and never use it :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:55 ----------

There is 2 more trial areas ;)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Some people may upgrade just to get the extra upstream bandwidth.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

What, 1.5Mbit? :D

Which still get's stm'd...would not be worth it :confused:

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

It's more than I can get from any ISP around here, and if you're a heavy uploader, it's still difficult to hit the upload limit.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I used BT as its a major isp with millions customers, BE are loss making although a great isp you have to consider without O2 subsidies they probably would be long gone or using similiar measures to BT and co.

Sky I dont mind comparing as a LLU competitor as it has a large customer base and is very favourable to both VM and BT on broadband however is dependent on line length and like BE isnt making money. Indeed £10 is unlimited but the others have caps been enforced now so mentioned it.

I just tried to stop people been misled end of the day, BE is not a typical adsl isp, the typical adsl isp performs and throttles far worse than VM, thats the sad reality.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

STM in my mind is all related to the BPI/illegal software download issue.

Id like to bet if Virgin are successful in curtailing customers and or facilitating the prosecution of customers dowloading pirated software etc many of the capacity issues would be overcome until such time as a majority of customers are using the internet for TV/pay per view etc related services. What else is going to eat up the bandwidth on an average domestic connection ?

They nominally get round the issues of STM in the contract we all sign but it remains to be seen if it is enforceable.

The upload is a different matter.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I'd sooner they started with the cloned modems and freeloaders first, they can worry about what or what is'nt copyrighted afterwards.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Never going to happen.

They still make the minimum from the cloners for the phone and free tv, That keeps they connection live and VM see a customer even if they are thieving **** bags who are stealing TV and broadband.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Actually, the last set of hits were only stopped due to problems with the DHCP servers, once the upgrades to them are done, cloners will be stopped (encrypted config rollout will be completed, amongst other things)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Encrypted like this one.

Config file 4k;fg47gtfd

not a genuine one though

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Indeed :)

however with the 6GB STM limit on 50Mbit i can see cloners finding a way around it.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Actually I thought the STM limit kicked in when the *total* transferred exceeded some arbitrary amount, not just the upload part.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Both upload and download are tracked and STM'd rate kicks in according to separate thresholds.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I would what the upload limits on 50Mb will be because with a 1.5Mbit upload wow you can upload so quick

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Oh i love sarcasm :D

The upload limit is 2gig between 4-9

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

*slaps head* I cant believe this I really cant

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

so it's 1.4GB for .75Mbit up and you think it's going to be 2GB for 1.5Mbit up? (and btw the upstream STM is between 3 and 8).

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

The download STM is 3GB for 20Mbit down and 6GB for 50Mbit down so it's not impossible.

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

Finally. :)

Re: VM position 50 meg as "premium"
 

I will beleave it when i see it.