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-   -   How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space! (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33633778)

Maggy 31-05-2008 15:42
How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
One of my SF reading club members sent me this link.

Does anyone of you science boffs think this is really feasible considering how expensive oil has become?

Or is it something we will have to contemplate at some future date?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science...lar/index.html

danielf 31-05-2008 15:46
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
There was an article about this in New Scientist a while ago. If I recall correctly it was considered a serious proposition.

Maggy 31-05-2008 15:49
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34564291)
There was an article about this in New Scientist a while ago. If I recall correctly it was considered a serious proposition.
Have you got any info or a link? :)

danielf 31-05-2008 15:52
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Here you go:

http://environment.newscientist.com/...Id=space_rss20

Maggy 31-05-2008 20:23
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Thanks!

Quote:
Several technical challenges remain to be overcome, including the development of lower-cost space launches. A satellite capable of supplying the same amount of electric power as a modern fossil-fuel plant would have a mass of about 3000 tonnes – more than 10 times that of the International Space Station. Sending that material into orbit would require more than a hundred rocket launches. The US currently launches fewer than 15 rockets each year.
I think that pretty much dooms the idea already...:)

punky 31-05-2008 20:48
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
I always thought the problem wasn't a lack of sunlight it was a lack of efficient technology to convert it to electricity. I didn't think concentrating or increasing the sunlight would help much.

After seeing Die Another Day, its probably for the best anyway :)

danielf 31-05-2008 20:51
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34564440)
Thanks!

I think that pretty much dooms the idea already...:)
Dunno... Not in the near future perhaps, but within a couple of decades?

Quote:
In spite of these challenges, the NSSO and its supporters say that no fundamental scientific breakthroughs are necessary to proceed with the idea and that space-based solar power will be practical in the next few decades.

"There are no technology hurdles that are show stoppers right now," said Damphousse.

Maggy 31-05-2008 21:34
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34564452)
Dunno... Not in the near future perhaps, but within a couple of decades?
Well as Barak has already said he would like to divert funding from NASA towards science teaching in schools I suppose we must pin our hopes on McCain...Oh wait I suspect he'll be wanting to promote oil revenue.

frogstamper 31-05-2008 21:41
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
[quote]"A single kilometer-wide band of geosynchronous Earth orbit experiences enough solar flux in one year to nearly equal the amount of energy contained within all known recoverable conventional oil reserves on Earth today," the report said.[/qoute]

When you consider the above statement I believe it will not be a case of "if" but more like "when". Between when this idea was first floated in the 70s until recently in the 90s it has become more feasible, cost wise, so as the price of oil continues to sky rocket with ever more demand on global supplies by emerging economies like China and India, I'd say it will become a necessity.

homealone 31-05-2008 21:59
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34564440)
Thanks!



I think that pretty much dooms the idea already...:)
It is possibly one idea that might benefit from a permanent base on the moon, where you could theoretically manufacture the parts needed 'on site' & use a linear accelerator to 'throw' them into Earth orbit. This would take advantage of the lower gravity on the moon & obviate the need for rocket launches from Earth.

It may even be possible to build an Earth based linear accelerator, but the higher gravity & presence of our atmosphere would make it a huge undertaking, even based on the equator to gain some help from the Earth's rotation.

Another alternative to rocket launches could be the 'space elevator' idea, but I believe that is still a concept waiting for technology to catch up with the physical requirement for materials strong enough & light enough, to make it possible.

One thought is that a project of this size would presumably require true international co-operation - and it may be that, rather than the limits of our technology, which would be the real test of its feasibility???

danielf 31-05-2008 21:59
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34564487)

When you consider the above statement I believe it will not be a case of "if" but more like "when". Between when this idea was first floated in the 70s until recently in the 90s it has become more feasible, cost wise, so as the price of oil continues to sky rocket with ever more demand on global supplies by emerging economies like China and India, I'd say it will become a necessity.
Just imagine the potential revenue. Yes, the initial outlay will be considerable, but after the thing is in place, you've got pretty much unlimited energy, and it's free (virtually). The parties that would build this thing stand to make a bundle...

downquark1 01-06-2008 11:40
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34564487)
Quote:
"A single kilometer-wide band of geosynchronous Earth orbit experiences enough solar flux in one year to nearly equal the amount of energy contained within all known recoverable conventional oil reserves on Earth today," the report said.
When you consider the above statement I believe it will not be a case of "if" but more like "when". Between when this idea was first floated in the 70s until recently in the 90s it has become more feasible, cost wise, so as the price of oil continues to sky rocket with ever more demand on global supplies by emerging economies like China and India, I'd say it will become a necessity.
It entirely depends on the efficiency with which we can absorb the energy. And strangely enough it will be a huge engineering challenge to keep the thing cool enough to operate.

My favourite next gen energy sources are nuclear fusion and Craig Venter's octane producing designer microbes. Now if only we can get them to work.

handyman 01-06-2008 12:54
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Something like this could get the bits up there for a reasonable price.

It could cost ony $75 worth of electricity per launch :-)

danielf 01-06-2008 13:13
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 34564853)
Something like this could get the bits up there for a reasonable price.

It could cost ony $75 worth of electricity per launch :-)
Cool! :)

Anonymouse 01-06-2008 15:28
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
The most maddening, irritating thing about space-based solar collectors is that the whole thing IS doable. It's not impossible, or even impractical. The technology does exist, and whatever else might be required could be developed along the way. It could be done. Dammit, it should be done. But as far as I can see, the only people aside from private industry, i.e. governments, who can do it, won't do it. As I've noted before, it's too long-term - it will take decades to show a real return, even though that return will be several hundred percent (so anyone in their early twenties investing in a solar power company now would be well-advised to deposit their stock certificates in a vault and forget about them for 20 years minimum). Governments - particularly ours - are keen on short-term fixes, as we've seen too frequently in the last decade or so.

Before any government will tackle such a project seriously, the underlying political structure must be completely changed. Politicans simply aren't in power long enough to see such things through, so they don't care. They should be made to stay where they are for as long as it takes - and if it takes their entire lifetime, that's just too bad. Solar power is about the only really practical and safe alternative to fossil fuels which, let's face it, are running out. But it can't be done unless politics are either completely transformed, or left out of it altogether.

The figures in terms of the energy available - even though it's only a tiny fraction of the Sun's total output - rapidly become so large they start to lose meaning. Zero pollution. Zero generation cost - the Sun burns for free. For all intents and purposes, it's an eternal power source; the Sun's energy output will likely show no significant change for 5,000,000,000 years at a minimum, by which time it won't matter one way or the other.

Perhaps the energy companies themselves should foot the bill, instead of paying the proposed windfall taxes. And they are in it for the long haul, they have to be. The only problem then is to figure out how to prevent them from screwing everyone even more thoroughly than they are doing now...:erm:

frogstamper 01-06-2008 19:22
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34564979)
The most maddening, irritating thing about space-based solar collectors is that the whole thing IS doable. It's not impossible, or even impractical. The technology does exist, and whatever else might be required could be developed along the way. It could be done. Dammit, it should be done. But as far as I can see, the only people aside from private industry, i.e. governments, who can do it, won't do it. As I've noted before, it's too long-term - it will take decades to show a real return, even though that return will be several hundred percent (so anyone in their early twenties investing in a solar power company now would be well-advised to deposit their stock certificates in a vault and forget about them for 20 years minimum). Governments - particularly ours - are keen on short-term fixes, as we've seen too frequently in the last decade or so.

Before any government will tackle such a project seriously, the underlying political structure must be completely changed. Politicans simply aren't in power long enough to see such things through, so they don't care. They should be made to stay where they are for as long as it takes - and if it takes their entire lifetime, that's just too bad. Solar power is about the only really practical and safe alternative to fossil fuels which, let's face it, are running out. But it can't be done unless politics are either completely transformed, or left out of it altogether.

The figures in terms of the energy available - even though it's only a tiny fraction of the Sun's total output - rapidly become so large they start to lose meaning. Zero pollution. Zero generation cost - the Sun burns for free. For all intents and purposes, it's an eternal power source; the Sun's energy output will likely show no significant change for 5,000,000,000 years at a minimum, by which time it won't matter one way or the other.

Perhaps the energy companies themselves should foot the bill, instead of paying the proposed windfall taxes. And they are in it for the long haul, they have to be. The only problem then is to figure out how to prevent them from screwing everyone even more thoroughly than they are doing now...:erm:
Opposed to any government staying in power indefinitely to see it through, I believe a better idea for a project that would be this expensive and relatively long term, a referendum should take place. If, hopefully, the answer was yes it would take the politics out of it.

popper 01-06-2008 22:33
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
as always, the lessons are never learned, bigger is not always better, a single point of failure is all you get with these options, take a leaf out of natures book, or personal computer growth book, many millions of cheap micro-generation units of all types, and a single universal interconnect are the way to go.

think about it, just about every single peace of kit inside your house can be replaced today with a 12V DC equivalant bit of kit if you can supply it with enough amps/Watts, LCD Tv's and monitors, laptop PCs as powerful as a desktop can be made today,small scale 12V fridges/freezers exist today, make them bigger or convert the current 240AC suppy to 12V, its all doable TODAY.

the thing thats missing is that ability to pop down your local superstore and buy these cheap Micro-Generation units, be it all forms of solar,wind,stirling engine,or my favourate micro-Fuel Cell in a Box: hydrogen and fuel cell PEM electrolyser technology using on site easy made distilled water ,rather than the methanol fuel supply the big world companys are trying to convince you to use, so they can keep a lock on the distribution and mass short term profits from this higher cost and far more complex to produce fuel.

a mass produced cheap Micro generation unit of whatever type,that can run one single home Appliance plus,and be universely and easly linked together to push the excess generation into storage, and/or easly pluged to the local grid is whats needed, the more you buy, the more money you personally save long term.

make it for a fair price and available everywere ,and you will soon have everyone buying them to run that TV, PC, wireless router, or fridge etc.

today it's not available to the masses or at a good single self contained unit or price, so its not going anywere for the masses right now, but if i could buy them and simply plug it in, i would and be running this wireless PC and network off them right now.

http://www.h-tec.com/education/engli...home.asp?id=31

http://www.h-tec.com/education/engli...her.asp?id=315
"The possible applications for fuel cells can be broken down into 3 major types. Different applications require different kinds of fuel cells.

Stationary applications
These applications involve generation of both power and heat, and can range from home units (output starting at 2 kW) to block-type units that supply entire residential areas (with outputs in the MW range).
...
"

TheBlueRaja 01-06-2008 22:46
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Why would you need a huge Satellite?

Why not a huge space based parabolic mirror, made from say aluminium foil which would reflect a focused beam of sunlight (or more likely sunlight converted to microwave energy) to ground based collectors?

You would probably need several ground based tracking stations / collectors at strategic points around the globe to account for the earths rotation but it would be cheaper than putting the whole caboodle in space.

You would need a serious no fly zone around it and some bird fanciers might get a bit twitchy and you would probably also need some studies on the effects of Microwave energy on the ozone layer too but this would seem a smarter approach.

homealone 01-06-2008 23:03
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34565290)
Why would you need a huge Satellite?

Why not a huge space based parabolic mirror, made from say aluminium foil which would reflect a focused beam of sunlight (or more likely sunlight converted to microwave energy) to ground based collectors?

You would probably need several ground based tracking stations / collectors at strategic points around the globe to account for the earths rotation but it would be cheaper than putting the whole caboodle in space.

You would need a serious no fly zone around it and some bird fanciers might get a bit twitchy and you would probably also need some studies on the effects of Microwave energy on the ozone layer too but this would seem a smarter approach.
A space based parabolic mirror converting sunlight to microwave energy is still a 'satellite', and placing it in geosynchronous orbit would obviate the need to account for the Earth's rotation.

And yes, several of them would be required..

However, I still reckon this is something requiring International co-operation, which I would suggest is the biggest hurdle to overcome, rather than the resource, or the technology.

- liked the 'bird fanciers' 'twitchy' pun, btw :D

danielf 01-06-2008 23:05
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34565314)

However, I still reckon this is something requiring International co-operation, which I would suggest is the biggest hurdle to overcome, rather than the resource, or the technology.
I do agree there. If only because I don't think it would be wise if one country were to have complete control over this source of energy.

TheBlueRaja 01-06-2008 23:13
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34565314)
A space based parabolic mirror converting sunlight to microwave energy is still a 'satellite', and placing it in geosynchronous orbit would obviate the need to account for the Earth's rotation.

And yes, several of them would be required..

However, I still reckon this is something requiring International co-operation, which I would suggest is the biggest hurdle to overcome, rather than the resource, or the technology.

- liked the 'bird fanciers' 'twitchy' pun, btw :D
It is still a satellite, but its not a 3000 Tonne one and that was my point. An aluminium foil reflector would be very light.

Also a geosynchronous satellite wouldn't work, the sat would be stationary above a fixed point on the ground but the earth still rotates and the sun disappears at night ;)

I think the height needed for geosynchronous orbit would be to low for it to be peering over the edge of the earth to still catch the sun during the night.

Prove me wrong though, i'm not certain of that.

homealone 01-06-2008 23:30
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34565324)
It is still a satellite, but its not a 3000 Tonne one and that was my point. An aluminium foil reflector would be very light.

Also a geosynchronous satellite wouldn't work, the sat would be stationary above a fixed point on the ground but the earth still rotates and the sun disappears at night ;)

I think the height needed for geosynchronous orbit would be to low for it to be peering over the edge of the earth to still catch the sun during the night.

Prove me wrong though, i'm not certain of that.
That is why you need more than just one :)

In this case I don't think it is about being 'right or wrong', but being able to co-operate globally to achieve the best solution for us all.

- oh well, it was a good idea while it lasted ...

Maggy 01-06-2008 23:42
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34565335)
That is why you need more than just one :)

In this case I don't think it is about being 'right or wrong', but being able to co-operate globally to achieve the best solution for us all.

- oh well, it was a good idea while it lasted ...
Well if it replaced a few wind farms and other contentious energy suppliers maybe we could get more support for the idea?

homealone 01-06-2008 23:57
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34565345)
Well if it replaced a few wind farms and other contentious energy suppliers maybe we could get more support for the idea?
I'd love to think so, Incog, but imagine if it would need North & South Korea, or Israel & Syria, or China & Taiwan, to share resources in order to achieve something for the common good.

Possibly I'm being pessimistic, but I'm not sure we are capable of co-operating on the scale necessary to get this to work??

I'd like to think I will be proved wrong on that opinion, but how long that will take is the next question - the technology is less of a problem than the politics, as far as I can see??

popper 01-06-2008 23:58
Re: How to harvest solar power? Beam it down from space!
 
you would i assume place two of them at the poles and so made best use of the available sunlight, but how you keep them there is another matter as you cant have them use geosynchronous orbit at these points AFAIK.

if and when we can stuff satalites up on the cheap then you would have lots of relay points around the geosynchronous orbit and then by that time, we would be far more advanced and have the global co-operation far more advanced i assume.

as i said above, lots of micro-generation single home Appliance plus is the way to go TODAY, make them and we will buy and use them, if your not price hikeing for the sake of short term mass profits, think far longer term and sell lots of single units for far longer...

the world computer industry is moveing to far lowerpower chips and pc kit today, lets see all the other home Appliances doing the same, and we might even think about including these near future self contained universal power generation units with almost every appliance as a way to massively improve the uptake over the shorter term, and thats got to be good for starting a new micro power inovation market.


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