New STM/Virgin traffic managent confirmed - so that's why it's slow!
 

This article explains why speeds have suddenly dropped - it's Virgin's new traffic management system designed to ensure that we don't get what we pay for.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/networ...-Management/p1

So, Customers too need a new system - our new "Value Management System" - wherein when they deliver poor value for money we close our accounts. My call is now on it's way!

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Damn, that's really taking the cake -- they want to throttle us for 15 out of the 24 hours in a day?! I grumbled I bit when I read about the introduction of the first policy, but I haven't noticed too much of a difference. Then again, I've only started downloading a few TV programmes and films (er, yes, iPlayer and Creative Content films, of course) -- I'm far from the "Top 3%" of heavy users.

Lately we've been considering switching back to ADSL (Pipex wasn't so bad before Hasselhoff...), but the whole BT line quagmire seems like a right mess, and I'm surprised at how satisfied I am with the cut back from 4Mb "L" to 2Mb "M". Despite the stupid names, and the fact that I was told by a customer service rep that "There might be a increase from 2M to 4M, in line with the 4M to 10M"... It remains to be seen whether or not I'll end up paying less for the same speed as before, but I remember starting with Telewest at 512K and eventually getting 4M, which was nice.

I just hope that "opting out" of the Phorm monster via the webwise site, and blocking the cookie in Opera, will keep the monitoring at bay... Or they could at least give their victimssubscribers some of the targetted ad revenue they'll receive!

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

unfortunately ADSL isnt much better these days. You either get a god awful service, or you get small limits for most of the day.

the best ADSL i had was with UKFSN who are an entanet reseller. I was limited to 30gb a month from 8am to 10pm weekdays, but evening/nights and all weekend gave me a 300Gb limit.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Like you I am not a heavy user and so I object the the vicious throttling that they propose to introduce to everyone. This is not in my contract and so I have already objected. Much to my surprise they offered to cut my monthly bill for the 20 meg service to £20 so I accepted. However, I have explained that if the service gets worse then I am cancelling the service and moving to another ISP.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

New 12 month contract come with the deal?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Not for me, but I anticipate that all new customers will have a contract incorporating the the new traffic management system.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I dont see how limiting uploads during the day is going to work well

Ok most people will be working 9-5 so it wont affect them that badley but people use uploads for email use, image uploads, text transmitting via php, video uploads

this will specially affect regular Youtube users and Facebook/My Space

As for advertising there may be a small clause that says subject to different areas so their advertising may still be inline and correct.
That is of cause if they have started it

Plus having worked for Virgin Media under Telewest Broadbanf franchise they normally tend to write to customers and select an X amount of good paying customers with a good service record with the company to ask them if they would mind in participating in the trial to test it for about 2-3 months then they tend to roll it out nationally

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Indeed it is a trial and hopefully the comments you make in your final paragraph will be followed this time too. However, we do need to recognise that the bottom line for most customers is "are we getting good value for money?" Current broadband performance is very poor and if this form of traffic management is introduced as well, then, I fear the worst.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I'm not normally one to complain about STM, and have managed to work around it quite nicely. I do download a lot of stuff, though nowhere near the new 3 and 6GB limits.

However, I am getting a little hacked off now. The reason being that if I want to just browse a few web sites and send e-mails, I'd go for a lower speed. I have a 20MB connection purely to download stuff faster. I know some have issues with their service, but I've been happy, since I actually do get pretty much the full 20MB for pretty much 100% of the time.

To me, there seems little point in providing such a fast service if you're going to prevent people downloading at full speed - that's what high-speed broadband is for, in my personal opinion. Anything else, you don't need much more than 4MB.

These high-speed services aren't cheap, and Virgin would do better investing our money into upgrading their network, rather than paying tech bods to find ways to cripple our download speeds.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

You have accurately summarised my own views, and the views of many other subscribers, on this situation and I fully support what you say. Well, done.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

To both Paranoimia & Sput:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I have just discovered that this guy is none too happy either:-

http://blog.northmore.net/2007/12/11...agement-sucks/

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Cheers guys. I also take issue with what Virgin say:

"The trial aims to prevent or reduce the effects of a minority of users abusing the network and preventing the majority of subscribers from having the network performance they desire.

For the vast majority of customers, upwards of 95% of the base, their experience will be a more consistent speed (both upload and download)."

I say to Virgin: Sorry, but that's not my problem. If I'm paying for a 20MB connection, I should be able to run it at full capacity 24/7 if I so choose; that's NOT abusing the network, it's simply making full use of a service that I am paying for. You need to upgrade your network accordingly. If you don't have the capacity, don't offer the service.

If I spend the equivalent of 5 days of the month being forced to run on a 5MB connection because your network can't support the advertised speeds, then you should adjust my bill downwards accordingly.

As it is, you will have two p***ed-off customers instead of one. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is NOT the way to do things.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

"The trial aims to prevent or reduce the effects of a minority of users abusing the network and preventing the majority of subscribers from having the network performance they desire.

For the vast majority of customers, upwards of 95% of the base, their experience will be a more consistent speed (both upload and download)."

I could not agree more with Paranoimia. Moreover, if Virgin are correct in that only 5% of thier customers are causing problems then surely they should take action against the 5% causing the problem rather than applying the restriction to all of their customers.

A simple analogy is drawing petrol from a petrol station. The 95% good customers pay for 20 gallons of petrol but when they complain that only 10 gallons has been delivered are told that this is because 5% of bad customers have taken more than their allocated 20 gallons and so the petrol station has to limit supplies. The analogy is not technically perfect but it does illustrate the unacceptable stance being adopted by Virgin!

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Bethere are supposed to be a good ISP.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Their 24 Meg service at £18 per month looks great but unfortunately they are not available in my area.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Residential broadband is a contended service, you have to share it between other people, that's why it's so cheap. If you found out your connection was being slowed down by your next door neighbour downloading 24/7, I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?

If you don't want to share your connection with anyone else you can shell out several hundred pounds a month and have your own dedicated line ;)

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

To be honest, I thought those complaining about STM were just moaning for the sake of it, but now I've realised I'm wrong - and many of you are right.

To quote VM's website, it specifically says here: "What does unlimited broadband mean? No download limits. Unlike some of our competitors, you get unlimited downloads as a basic right so you can load up on music, films...whatever you're into."

I'm at work all day, and don't use consoles etc so considered size L to more than meet my needs, but with this new policy I can only really download ONE DVD length movie of decent quality (paid for, of course) during evening/weekend hours.

Not my idea of "loading up on music, films...whatever I'm into." Fair enough it's not in Edinburgh yet, but that's not a way to run a network. In fact, that makes it even more unfair penalising users based on their geographic location.

Keep up the pressure on VM guys.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

The points you make are perfectly valid but these are not the point of this debate. Of course we would all be unhappy if a neighbour was downloading 24/7. A more pertinent question is whether Virgin should solve this problem by placing restrictions upon EVERYONE for the behaviour of the few? Virgin claim that only 5% of it's customers cause such problems so would it not be better for Virgin to enforce it's own Acceptable Use Policy:-

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ptableuse.html

and restrict the 5% of offenders rather than the 95% of non offenders?

I contend that taking action against the offenders is the fairest and most equitable solution.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Agreed but it would not be in VM's interest.

STM has nothing to do with improving the average users experience. It has everything to do with allowing VM to continue overloading the network with new punters and endeavouring to lock them into 12 month contracts without upgrading or with only limited upgrades to the network.

Imo the income from this practice is probably the only thing keeping them afloat while they wait anxiously for their handout from Phorm. ;)

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Regrettably I think you are right and so our ability to resolve the problem is somewhat limited.:(

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Cheap? I certainly don't think it's cheap. Not considering what we in the UK get for our money, compared to places like Japan, much of the US, and certain areas of Europe. By comparison, broadband in the UK is almost archaic, and ridiculously over-priced.


I agree 100% - but that's the point I'm making. We should not be in a position where one person's usage affects another's. If someone is paying for 20MB broadband, then that is what they should get 100% of the time, regardless of how they use it. The price doesn't drop, so why should the speed?

As I said, they should be looking to invest our money into improving the network so that contention isn't an issue, and we all get what we're paying for. If they're going to deliberately cut our connection speed to way below what we're paying for, then they need to start adjusting the bills accordingly.

To use Sput's petrol analogy, if you paid for 20 litres of petrol but only received 5, you would have every right to demand a partial refund. In fact, off the top of my head, I can think of no other business where a company can knowingly and deliberately provide you with less than you've paid for, and still charge you full price.

If it were honest, the Virgin marketing blurb would say something like: "Superfast 20MB broadband, with unlimited downloads... unless your neighbours complain, in which case we'll only give you 5MB, but we'll still charge you the same price."

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Well done. An excellent summary of how we all feel about less than accurate marketing that takes place with broadband. Keep up the good work.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I am now really pi***d off.
I have been traffic shaped for the last four hours because I have had the audacity to download at 400kb on my 4mb line !!

I needed some data urgently...so I paid a premium (time limited) to access a fast server to collect the data I required. I have only ever done this once before in six years because I really don't like paying twice for something.

So I'm not only paying "top dollar" for a crap service...but I'm loosing the advantage of a fast download service.

I never contracted to traffic shaping in any form...I signed up for a 4mb line, which I am not getting.

So what can I do about it ??????

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

So go get yourself a bit-torrent client, head over to ubuntu.com, find a tracker and get downloading copy after copy after copy of the distro .iso image.

If they want to prat me about, I'm going to suck down every single last byte I possibly can.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

i am a heavy user however even if i dont download owt i still get throttled.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Aren't you at least happy you don't have to put up with adsl? I'm meant to get 4.5mbps but I get 1.9!! Wish I could get Virgin...

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

lol mate you dont want it trust me.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I'm fairly sure that your connection speed was capped by STM not because you downloaded "at 400kb" but because you exceeded the *quantity* limit.

If you were in a hurry to get somewhere and chose to pay extra to hire a taxi (rather than wait for a bus) but then both your taxi and the bus got stuck in a traffic jam with no alternative route, what would you do?

---------- Post added at 15:04 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

You realise that all you'll be doing is reducing the connection speeds for your neighbours and other users on the same UBR?
Okay so VM might get a few more phone calls (at the premium rate) from frustrated customers but do you think that'll change anything?

Seems like a particularly unhelpful suggestion -- hope you don't live anywhere near me!
:(

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

If that's really the case, I'd suggest you contact Tech Support as it could mean there's a problem with the STM settings for your UBR.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Dunno about you but I experienced years of continual frustration with ADSL (everything from pathetic service from BT to incompetent and rip-off ISPs) but since joining VM I've had a reliable and fast (within 90% of maximum speeds) connection with only three short disconnections in the last two and a half years.

I'd hate to have to return to ADSL.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

iv spoken to VM about it in the past & all that they could say was dont download at all then. my connection has been p*ss poor, its taken them just under three years & five modems later to be able to give me a connection thats on 24/7 without cutting off at least four times a day.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I have just come accross this interesting article:-

http://blog.p2pvine.com/to-virgin-me...ther-05042008/

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I'm absolutely certain that all the Tech Support staff who helpfully offer advice and guidance on CF would be appalled that you'd been offered such a ridiculous suggestion.

All that I can recommend is, should you experience problems with your connection again, that you ask for help here or VM's dedicated newsgroup.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

well iv had alot worse info then that given to me in the past & yeah i will thanks for the advice :o)

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I have just carried out a speed test and got:-


"http://homepagentlworld.ccrn/robin.d.h.walker/speedtest.htm1fl209195999152
Sat, 26 Apr 2008 07:46:40 GMT

1st 128K took 304 ms = 431158 Bytes/sec = approx 3587 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 203 ms = 645675 Bytes/sec = approx 5372 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 25 ms = 5242880 Bytes/sec = approx 43621 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 458 ms = 286183 Bytes/sec = approx 2381 kbits/sec

These results appear to be rather fast: maybe this page was in the browser cache."

To be told that the results "..appear to be rather fast" is somewhat annoying when I have a 20 meg service and it is early Saturday morning!

The most annoying factor is that until a week ago I regularly got speeds over 17,000 kbits/sec and despite no changes to my system now I rarely get over 6,000 kbits/sec.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

What a difference a day makes! THis mornings speed test produces the best results that I can ever recall:-

"Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:08:41 GMT
1st 128K took 70 ms = 1872457 Bytes/sec = approx 15579 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 42 ms = 3120762 Bytes/sec = approx 25965 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 62 ins = 2114065 Bytes/sec = approx 17589 kbitslsec
4th 128K took 46 ms = 2849391 Bytes/sec = approx 23707 kbits/sec
These results appear to be rather fast: maybe this page was in the browser cache."

I wonder why such an improvement has occurred?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

"Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:20:34 GMT

Test 1: 1024K took 6751 ms = 151.7 KB/sec, approx 1250 Kbps, 1.22 Mbps
Test 2: 1024K took 6681 ms = 153.3 KB/sec, approx 1263 Kbps, 1.23 Mbps
Test 3: 1024K took 7679 ms = 133.4 KB/sec, approx 1099 Kbps, 1.07 Mbps
Test 4: 2048K took 18504 ms = 110.7 KB/sec, approx 912 Kbps, 0.89 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 1131 Kbps, 1.1 Mbps"

It's getting considerably worse for me; at least yesterday I had 1.8 Mbps... (I'm on 20 megabit - supposedly).

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Have you tried to get the problem fixed?

I've posted some tips here (ignore the section on STM as it needs revising) if you want to give it a go.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Thanks; actually the speed has started going up this morning to above 12000 Kbps - weird huh? You'd think the speed would drop as more people woke up and logged on ;) A very odd problem.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Virgin reports network maintenance starts this week so PERHAPS there is a connection:-

http://status-cable.virginmedia.com/...?ticket=280408

Regardless, there is hope that the maintenance work will produce some improvements for some people - hopefully you will be one of them?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

But according to VM, the whole point of STM is to avoid heavy users affecting others, so why no just thrash your connection to death? Obviously 'most' users are doing so otherwise there would be no need for STM - just get rid of the heavy users.

---------- Post added at 15:45 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

.. but be quick as its likely VM are going to withdraw newsgroup support soon.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

It's people like you who cause VM to give download limits, what do you expect VM to do if you mean to go over the limit to **** them off? Offer to upgrade your service as long as you stop being a pain?
You'd probably get a bus, it'd be cheaper. Or, you'd pay the taxi in the traffic jam and walk from there depending on how far away you are from your destination.
I'll give that a read.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I'm a cheap SOB so I'd avoid both taxi and bus and walk anyway!
:)

All criticism gratefully and gracefully received -- well, let's be honest: the less constructive the criticism, the less gracefully I'll receive it... But it'd be welcome nonetheless.
:tu:

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Speed today is not bad at all:-

Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:14:37 GMT
1st 128K took 63 ins = 2080508 Bytes/sec = approx 17310 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 60 ins = 2184533 Bytes/sec = approx 18175 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 61 ms = 2148721 Bytes/sec = approx 17877 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 62 ins = 2114065 Bytes/sec = approx 17589 kbits/sec

The fact that it becomes very, very poor later in the day does support the contention that traffic management is being applied judiciously.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

If this was true, which it isn't, we'd be reducing the number of new UBRs going into the network each week, wouldn't we? Since we're not, it's not true.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Speed this afternoon is excellent:-

Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:19:04 GMT
1st 128K took 63 ins = 2080508 Bytes/sec = approx 17310 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 46 ins = 2849391 Bytes/sec = approx 23707 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 63 ins = 2080508 Bytes/sec = approx 17310 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 47 ins = 2788766 Bytes/sec = approx 23203 kbits/sec

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Actually what you meant to write was "it's people like you who have the nerve to actually use what they have paid for"

When you phrase it that way it looks different doesn't it?

You conveniently seem to forget that their is NO LIMIT, the service is advertised and sold as UNLIMITED. IF it isn't then sell it as such - you can download 40 gig a month or whatever.

If they can't do it at that price then up the price. If someone truly wants unlimited max speed downloads they can either pay or cut their usage. It's not that difficult really.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Here, here. My sentiments exactly:clap:

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

work out how much you download as a percentage of what you could download if you left it running 24/7 and its nothing, hardly unlimited.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

The service is sold as unlimited with an Acceptable Usage Policy. This AUP probably contains all the STM rules.

Your traffic is not limited, hokkers, but your download and upload speed is.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Right, so if I choose to download non stop 24/7 then that's my choice isn't it?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

subject to the AUP & the rules of STM then, theoretically, yes - but I would class that kind of approach to be analogous to someone leaving their bath tap running to waste all day, just because they pay water rates & are not metered....

To take one popular genre of download, HD television, blu-ray, etc has had (is having? ) a huge impact on media file sizes, but even so, the media still takes as long to watch, no matter what the resolution....

Just me, possibly, but I would struggle to find space for & actually watch the result of downloading even hi-res media 24/7 ???

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

It's a waste if you're doing it to boycott or otherwise annoy VM. You're not going to do anything other than slow your browsing and other downloads.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Indeed it is. But so too are the consequences and, if it were me, I would not welcome the consequences so I would not download 24/7 - it's called self preservation!

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

It looks like my 20 meg service is being traffic managed again:-

Sat, 03 May 2008 18:29:12 GMT
1st 128K took 766 ms = 171112 Bytes/sec = approx 1424 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 552 ms = 237449 Bytes/sec = approx 1976 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 832 ms = 157538 Bytes/sec = approx 1311 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 662 ins = 197994 Bytes/sec = approx 1647 kbits/sec

This speed is about a tenth of what I should be getting!! :mad:

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

To be honest if it is STM you should be at least getting 5mbit. There might be other issues at hand there.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

You are paying for a contended service, if you want 20meg of gaurenteed bandwidth that you can use 24/7 then go get yourself a leased line, then you can come back and complain at how expensive they actually are. Instead you can "use what you pay for" which ISN'T a gaurenteed 20meg. It's a service that's capable of delivering a 20meg speed, with an average per subscriber speed of more like 1meg, quite possibly even lower.

The service *IS* unlimited, there is no limit to how much you can download, speed restrictions do not change it from being unlimited as at no point will your internet be cut if you reach an arbituary limit.

However you also have to understand that it is contended, that means that whilst there is no set limit to how much you can download, there is a limit to how much can be supplied to a set of customers at any one time. Incidently, the speed when you're capped by STM are still considerably higher than what you'd get if everyone was "using what they paid for".

You say up the price to offer "truly unlimited", but I doubt you truely understand just how much it costs to provided the dedicated bandwidth to each subscriber that would meet your definition of unlimited.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

That possibility crossed my mind too. However, since I get 20 meg at other times of the day then the only conclusions I can arrive at is that the slow speed is caused by either traffic management or by an overloaded network. This is my latest speed test:-

Mon, 05 May 2008 08:10:22 GMT
1st 128K took 43 ms = 3048186 Bytes/sec = approx 25361 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 49 ms = 2674939 Bytes/sec = approx 22255 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 53 ins = 2473057 Bytes/sec = approx 20576 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 53 ins = 2473057 Bytes/sec = approx 20576 kbits/sec

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I for one am totally screwed at this, I share massive files over a private p2p network for the STBC community based on www.bcfiles.com and related sites for the private fan base and beta projects. All projects are legal and personal created mods, many of them though can be easily 4-6GB in size, and this explains why my speeds have become stupidly slow recently.

I for one plan on jumping ship, the moment Virgin Morons are open I shall be cancelling my service to find another ISP which can promise me at least a speed per day I can use non stop.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

:erm:
Best of luck with that!

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I couldn't agree more, those BIGOTS who have posted above have no idea why some people have 20mb connections, they are narrow minded and only have one way at looking at things. i bought 20mb to use it i have 4/5 people on a router here (the 5 person comes on when she comes home from uni) what the hell do they think i will do buy five 2mb connections (i think not) so get of the people who do use it..........and we all steam tv download a bit like most game online............what else do you think i have a 20mb for.................................

and this is why virgin gets up its ass about it..........they only pay for bandwith used not how many connections they have.....

which means if they properly cost their connections in reality they would never oversubscribe, so thats why they have to STM not because of the 5% of high users, because they want you to pay more and dont use your connection

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

How many reasonably-demanding users do you think your <£39/month connection ought to be able to cope with 24/7?

Would it be reasonable for me to setup multiple wifi access points and expect that all 60 households in my complex can stream TV and download games at the same time of day?

Do your five users accept that only one of them can get (at best) 20Mb/s at any one time?
And that if two of them start fast downloads at the same time, they are likely to only get around 10Mb/s each?

That's contention in action -- multiple users sharing the same bandwidth.

Do you accept that all ISPs need to use contention at the UBR or exchange to offer domestic connections at an affordable price?
If not, then your five users (requiring in the region of 4Mb/s each) need to be thinking of paying a lot more than £39/month each for their dedicated connections.

In an ideal network we'd barely notice the contention when demand for bandwidth was high but much of VM's network is oversubscribed and the only solution is to provide greater capacity. This is precisely what VM's DOCSIS3 programme will do albeit 'following' the demand curve rather than in anticipation of it.

Oh, and please don't make personal attacks on other posters: it's offensive and diminishes your argument.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I have always said that if you resort to personal attacks you have lost the argument and should stop there. Having a go at people on this forum be it those members of staff that post here or the many posters who spend time here will NOT fix your problem.


Good post CeeDee:tu:

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Then it's offline, I am not asking for maximum speed all day but I want the speed when I need it, not to have it cut out just because I have the nerve to use what I pay for.

I have to run more than one computer since myself and my partner live here, and also I have family and kids over so game consoles are in use aswell online * no fun vs AI *

Coupled with me legitimatly sharing files over the torrent network for the STBC mod community and the new limitations of the system are too much.

And by principle of the matter I refuse to pay for a service of which I am paying a premium now of which is not fit for purpose.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

This is where you are wrong.
What do you call STM then? they LIMIT your speeds, which in effect means they LIMIT how much you can download/upload per day.
And all this rubbish about ONLY being STM'ed if you are in the top 5% this is rubbish!

Say I am the only person in a village with virgin's internet, and I go over my LIMITS, how the hell can I be within the top 5%?
Virgin are just using this scamming technique so they can cram more people on the already well over-subscribed network, thus increasing their PROFITS while ripping customers off as they are in effect STEALING already paid for bandwidth, and as we all know, the more customers they cram on, the less speed we will get, and this is the ONLY reason why they are doing it.

Now anyone could just come back with "but they are constantly upgrading their network" answer: WRONG!!!
IF they are indeed constantly upgrading their network,then WHY are people STILL saying they have poor speeds?
Virgin IMO would NEVER do anything to help its customers, quite the contrary, they do EVERYTHING they can to screw us customers over, this is FACT!

Rant over now :)

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Connection 60 households? No just one router (and virgin sells routers) and my router has port throttling on I have it set for each member. When I set about making my LAN I took all this into consideration, but most don’t have any idea.

Regarding contention and the 5% of high users I do accept the price for a good service, but we don't get that and it’s not the high user's fault, which always get the finger pointed at. It's virgin's fault for not getting their gamble right, or for that matter listening to their customers.

and no you won’t get an apology for saying some people on here are BIGOTS, they are and no matter how many times you try to educate them they still won’t see the wood because of the trees...

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

If you accept that applying contention rules is appropriate for your LAN then why do you think it's unacceptable for VM to do the same at the UBR?
What bandwidth would you think is satisfactory for each of your five users at peak times?

I'd agree that VM should have predicted the huge increase in bandwidth demand and increased capacity earlier. As I understand it, VM's current network has been designed to cope with a contention ratio (apparently 20:1) based on most users consuming just 3GB/month.
In that light, it's not surprising that currently 5% of users (myself included) expect far more than that and it's our (above average) usage that's 'overloading' the network.
In response, VM are investing in DOCSIS3 which should increase capacity next year.
But even then, you'll be very unlikely to be able to download at 20Mb/s at peak times when everybody else is online -- just like your LAN users.

I didn't ask for an apology, I simply pointed out that personal attacks were offensive and wouldn't help you "educate" posters who don't see things your way.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

If I'm understanding you correctly, you want to have your maximum speed available whenever you want it, regardless of other customers' usage. To get that you'll need an uncontended connection or a network running way below it's economically affordable level.
Expect to pay an awful lot more than VM's current charges!

Again I wish you the best of luck in finding it.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I never said a maximum speed, I am happy with 50% of my speed even 30%, what I am not happy about is having my speed cut for hours on end.

I don't mind a slower network, I do mine a retarded one.

Each person to their own view.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Hi ceedee,
you missed out the bit where i said "When I set about making my LAN I took all this into consideration". Thats what it is all about, i didn't think for one minute i wouldn't have to, i also told them what i could deliver. Note i don't gamble with other poeple's money or service. That's what you would expect to get from me, so i expect from other's, i am to long in the tooth to suffer fools.

Yes i do get fustrated at others comments, on here all they seem to do is knock high user's and dont think about others, so sometimes i voice my view from another prospective. what i find wrong is they never seem to get "hold on mate there are other reasons why people want 20mb connection, and not just to download 24/7.

It's virgins (new name bought for frontend but still NTL/TW) fault that couldn't provide a stable network and why so many upgrade's are needed. "They simply got it wrong", hence the high level of STM.

IF and a big IF in a years time VM are investing in DOCSIS3 which should increase capacity next year, brings about a better service then i might come back.

But nothing will change, The ironic thing they have done was to keep upgrading for nothing 4mb to 10mb, 10mb to 20mb..........It makes no sense at all

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

That is a limit nobody can remove: the amount of data you could download in a day at full speed is decided by the speed you pay for. Moving to Be* or similar would not get rid of that limit. This is no different when STM'd.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Just thought i post this

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/948/ffev1.jpg

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

the thing is with STM and probably annoying most is that we have had STM awhile now and VM keep changing the rules and not really informing anyone and us the end users are getting a resticted service which isn't getting any better even with STM. Thats whats annoying. Its as if STM is being used to actually keep the service going due to VM over subscribing and not updating the network and then blaming the heavy users,

end result is they can limit your download/uploads, you have to pay top package to get any decent level of service.

sucks TBH, going backwards instead of forwards. Soon we will have 2hour disconnects just like dialup days, lol

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

-rolls eyes-

Difference here would be without STM your only limited by the actual connection your paying for, with STM they are purposely taking 75% of it away from you thus restricting your speed and restricting the amount of data you can download.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I just wish they'd drop the new 50Mb service, drop the 20Mb service and go back to a non-shaped 10Mb as the top end connection.

They're blatantly increasing their top end speeds to appear competitive with the faster ADSL services. It's all nonsense because their network can't deliver what they're promising and most of the ADSL providers are in the same boat.

I'd much rather have a 10Mb line that where I didn't have to watch my download amounts than a 20Mb (or 50Mb or 100Mb for that matter) connection where I do. I'd probably even pay more for it!

I'd like to say I'd move if this came into effect, but I'm not sure this alone would do it.

Now if they implement Phorm or their three-strikes rule that would be entirely different story!

Ed

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Won't this be the situation once DOCSIS3 is in place for the 50Mb and 20Mb services?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

So there we have it, virgin media's internet IS LIMITED!!!

And why on earth are they STILL advertising it as UNLIMITED?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Dropping STM for the 10Mb? I doubt it, but I certainly hope so. As far as I'm concerned that would make the move from 20Mb to 10Mb an upgrade, and presumably with a cost reduction as well! :)

Ed.

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

I think they mean "unlimited, relative to more limited services". I guess you could apply that logic to just about anything really....

Ed.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I have just found this article describing a process designed by Samknows.com to measure real ISP performance and expose marketing "bandwidth smokescreens":-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...d_performance/


It will be interesting to see the results of this exercise.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I sent Neil an e-mail this morning...e-mail and reply:

Hi there,

How are you on this fine morning?

Anyway, I would just like to voice my concerns over STM. At the moment
the current STM (4:00pm-9:00pm) is "ok".

Now if the company decides to go with 10:00am and beyond then quite
frankly that is quite ridiculous.

With the advent of the iPlayer, demos, itunes, free games - it would be
impossible to use the 20mb connection. I would be limited within 20minutes.

Now I have been with Blueyonder since they introduced the 512kb service
and it was awesome - infact it's still awesome. We rarely have any issues.

So if you really want to stand out over the ADSL crowd - please, please
do not go down the 24 hour STM route, nor the 10:00 - 3:00/4:00 - 9:00
avenue.

People will just jump ship to Be* or even worse Sky.

I'm presuming that this e-mail will go unanswered, but if you really do
want my make broadband your main focus - don't hit us with 9+ hours of STM.

Regards,

Robert.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thx for your comments. My focus is to improve not reduce our Quality of Service. The bonding technology we are deploying will go a long way to addressing this desired improvement.




Now I don't know if the e-mail posted here was legit or not, no idea. It could be a random person replying to me for all I know.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Regardless of who replied to your email, what I understand the answer to actually mean is that VM believe that upgrading to DOCSIS3 over the next 9 months or so and then transferring the 50Mb/s (and reportedly, 20Mb/s) connections over to it, should relieve the pressure on bandwidth for the M and L level users.

At that point, I guess there's a chance that STM could be reduced or withdrawn but until then...

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Well if they are willing to offer a truly unlimited service for MORE money I would be interested.

As it stands per an email I sent and was replied to today I am giving them a few more month while I search about for costs of moving ISP if things are still in this state then I shall have little choice to move.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Unlimited downloads in the technical sense would mean unlimited speed: we, in this universe, are limited by the speed of light, which has a direct effect on our fiber-optic connections and thus the amount of data we can download. There are no limits put in place by VM, but there are limits put in by the customer, who pays for a certain speed, and the laws of physics.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I don't believe any ISP will be able to offer a contended service that guarantees that you'll be able to download as much as you want, when you want it, at a quoted (ie. fixed) speed.

To get that, you need a managed or leased connection that, I suspect, will cost far more than you'll be willing to pay.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

It is unlimited as in even with a slower speed you can still download an unlimited amount of data, you are not charged per MB as with some providers or even cut off as in some cases.

So it is still UNLIMITED in the sense of the above.

---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------

Very true, perhaps what I mean is a decent overhead in relation to my speed and modern day internet usage.

I'd be happy to fork out £50 a month for 50MB down 1.5MB up with a 10GB cap per 24hour period.

I think that sounds fair?

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

But your £50 buys you a contended connection -- if a large number of other 50Mb/s customers on the same UBR want to download at the same time, your speed will fall.

I had a look at the Zen Internet website earlier and they offer <8Mb/s download / 832Kb/s upload with no download restrictions for just £79+vat.
But down at the bottom of the page, you find:

Please note:
* Actual Broadband download speeds will be no higher than 7,150Kbps
* BT Wholesale estimates that 78% of customers will achieve Broadband download speeds of 4Mbps and above.
* Fluctuation in Broadband line speed is expected to occur within the first 10 days of service whilst your line speed adapts to the maximum it can reliably support.
* It is likely that Broadband speeds no greater than 2Mbps will be achieved at peak usage times.
* Broadband speeds are affected by line length, quality and peak Internet usage periods and will range from 160Kbps to 7150Kbps. Further details on what affects speeds is available in our support knowledgebase.

:(

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

So you'd happily pay £50/month for a connection with a cap which you could hit within what, 30 minutes...

And again, you wont get 50mbit down with only 1.5mbit up.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Grr... We're with Virgin ADSL broadband and they've capped us. We're in a student house with 5 users (it's secure) but we don't excessively download anything. The occasional song but no movies or streaming. So why have we been capped?

About 10 days ago i downloaded some programming software which was about 100MB, do you think this could have caused it?

Is there anything we can do? They are saying we'll be capped between 4 and midnight until Sunday. Which is sooo annoying.

Having spoken to them again i've been told that we've gone over 5G. This is ridiculous... there's no way we've gone over 5G. My housemates are all yelling at me... i'm the only one who understands computers/networks in our house, so apparently it's all my fault.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Depends if I am downloading flat out, and let us be honest not many people can do that :)

Most of the time I am uploading constantly over a network to people on slower downloads whom cannot download the larger 5GB + mods so use torrents.

I am pretty sure things will be changing soon for both 20MB and 50MB :)

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I don't have any concrete evidence but I am pretty sure Neil is replying in person to these emails. If he is then I have to give him a certain amount of credit for it, despite my *numerous* misgivings about some of the things VM are doing/planning at the moment.

Ed.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I just signed up. I also very much look forward to seeing the results of this exercise, and would also like to be within the loop. :D

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Not many people do that? you think people are gonna pay £50/month for a premium package just to view emails quicker?

Think about, the whole point of a fast connection is to download faster, not download faster, hit a limit then get cut back 75%

It completely takes away the whole god damn point of having a fast connection.

And 10GB is way, way, way too low.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

How about you come up with a decent offer then sunshine.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

The principle of having a quota isn't a bad one. Personally in my opinion I am against it, but what I think some people are arguing 10gb a day just doesn't cut it. 10gb about 4 years ago would have been plently and ample, but not today. The goal posts constantly keep moving and for a 20mbit connection having a 10gb a day just isn't enough. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that people with 20mbit go over 10gb every day, it is just that every so often people use more than 10gb a day easly.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

10gig a day, wow! that's 70gig a week.

I rarely go over 70gig a month.

But you are right, it's good to have just for on that odd occasion. :)

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I've had a decent read of this thread and have to agree with all those complaining about STM. In my area we are limited to the HUGE amount of 750Mb between 4.00pm-12.00pm.

Personally I'm jumping ship and going to BePro which including the cost of the BT line will be less than I pay VM now And no I don't have a TV package from VM so it would appear I gain and VM loose.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I live in a STM Trial area..............It's got to be the worst thing ever..........Does anyone know how these bloody trials will last............If you test something you know how long your going to be doing it, dont you ??

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Im not in a STM area but it happens to me every night 9pm on wards and some times 4pm onwards, even though I dont download much might be a few demo's, This STM is efecting my gameing On line with cod4 Makes it laggy on most servers and making me want to move ship I don't want to has when its not STM its a very good line .

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I suspect that what you're seeing (after 9pm) is congestion at your local UBR (or perhaps a 'busy' source) -- according to VM, that's what it would be like from 4pm if they'd not brought in STM.

The congestion should improve once 20Mb/s users are transferred to DoCSIS3 later in the year.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Since the clocks changed I now can't download anything until 10pm. After that it's fine. I forgot and was in the process of downloading about 1.4gb last night when I realised the connection was slow, checked and I was down to 2mb speeds.

If what you say is true about the 20mb users, then hopefully they can relax the stm limits and or times.

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

I wouldn't be so bothered and willing to jump ship if I had actually been informed of this trial happening.

However they didn''t and that to me is an abuse of the T's & C's and of the consumer credit act.

Had they informed me then I would have willingly changed my download habits, although the 750Mb limit is very restricting, so much for Uma Therman advertising "you can download me as much as you want, when you want".

As far as being the fastest BB connection in the UK that is in doubt due to BeThere offering up to 24Mbs and on their BePro package (BePro users should expect 22 Mbs D/L) offering up to 2.5Mbs upload.

I have no sympathy for a company that is so short sighted that it cannot (or will not) deliver on it's promises. To implement STM shows a considerable lack of foresight when it is effecting more than the 3 or 5% they are complaining about.

I don't give a toss about the TV package (I haven't had one for at least 2 years) as most of it is repeats and I can migrate my phone no to BT. Not going to cause me a problem!

Re: New Virgin traffic managent - so that's why it's slow!
 

Has anyone experienced any application (ie P2P) throttling? Not just limiting download speeds during certain hours, but actually trying to slow down BitTorrents?

The reason I ask is that for a month or so now, I've been getting some really slow (~2kb/s) speeds on BitTorrent. At first, I thought it was a problem with my connection so I ran some speed tests and sure enough I was only getting ~100kb/s. So, I phoned Virgin who told me there was a known issue in my area and they would be fixing it on May 16. To my utter amazement, May 16th rolls around, and it's been fixed - I'm getting ~15Mb/s now!! Alas, though, BitTorrent is still as slow as ever :(.

Then, I get the idea to see if they are actively monitoring the connection and restricting certain applications, so I change the port in Transmission and enable encryption. Then BOOM, things speed up straight away and I'm now getting ~60kb/s.