All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

as i predicted all cable boxes will be going down ha ha time for all you robbers to buy a subscription....have a nice day !:dunce:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Clarification, please?

(from a non-robbing non-chipped box user)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

most of the rougue cable boxes all went blank yesterday as vm put a stop on the <deleted> etc...i was on another forum watching them scrounge for new codes as vm are changing them twice a day.....its funny stuff !

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

That won't last long..unfortunately.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

i dont know there seems to be a big panic !

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

why do people insist on calling them chipped boxes iirc there has not been a chip since the analogue days

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Indeed.

And yes, its the same system as sky, so these guys are never gonna get to keep their chans :)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I still say if they took there equipment back like they should do there would be less boxes to sell so less people stealing the services

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

away and dont talk a lot of colin nish m8

ur not telling me that they upgraded to videoguard overnight without changing a single receiver or card

and howcome one box is already fixed? begins with KR if you need a clue

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I tried chipping my box once, but I think I over did it with the salt and vinegar

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Not mentioning anything else but the proper boxes are a small problem compared to other options unfortunatly. My step brother knows a vm installer not sure if its a contractor or what but he apparently offers cloned modems and modified vm boxes . I am not the cleanest knife in the draw but I do not agree with theft of cable services and it does put a strain on the already over subscribed system but I could not get any more information

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Walnut Tree Close, Guildford : students have stacks of cloned modems each, maxing out 100Mbits+ you can see through the windows. The student market here is flooded with cloned modems and STBs.

Btw, NTL is defeated again, the re-keyed STBs are back up and running, there is some minor inconvenience but even that can be overcome. Keep rolling the keys NTL, Allah is guiding them....another mosque ;) or it's the Russians in Moscow? ;)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I've been reviewing some of those sites, and whilst many boxes seemed to go off late yesterday afternoon, many started to come back later that same day.

Shame really, but there you are.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Not fixed, i think you'll find the keys change 3 times/day, so the max they get chans on is for 3 hours, you'll know that if u search those sites as well.

No need to change recievers/cards, it the encryption system thats changed, but of course, you already know that.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Don't shoot the messager - but VM have a freephone number to report known cases of VM fraud - 0800 096 7800.

Perhaps if they offered a reward of free V+ install and subs for 3/6 months?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

"KR*******" boxes have been on since yesterday (so i've heard) and have not went off. did not require a manual key change or anything. new emu's are being made so away u go with ur scare tactics :)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I'd be pretty scared if they were making new emus - the old ones are massive...

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

yea funny guy

and the new 1s will be even bigger ;)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

HHHmmm my v box (all paid for I might add) went wrong in a bad way last night, I can only hope this is a coincidence.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

:Sprint:

:shocked: The emus are coming!!!!!!

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Yep and don't you forget it :)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I think we need some Emu Hunting Guns ;)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Here is a prototype

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...008/04/121.jpg

I had three of those so far with no problems apart the odd trip to the loo.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

There is always a way around the key change (worse luck) but it wont be long until Virgin figures out a way to make it harder for none payers :)

What Virgin need to do is stop people on their isp from accessing certain sites that offer the keys :dozey:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

such as photobucket? we would become the next china lmao

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

lol nah not to that extent but you know the type of sites I mean and I wont mention them here ;)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

i do indeed.


in response to the image of the beer. you will all very much be "bitter" when the fix is released :)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Far as i am concerned anything that VM do to upset the thieving "insert appropriate words here" that steal cable is ok by me. I hope they keep it up all the time and make the thieving "insert appropriate words here" lives a misery. :tu: to VM

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

wouldnt really call it a misery myself. more of a test to us coders. i'll tell you though, we are very very nearly there in having a fix for the ******** ;)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Well bully for you.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

must be a major disappointment for traxdata :) or coretech whatever u wanna call him

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

i read somewhere about someone cracking the fox networks encryption - do they use the same as sky?

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I ain't going to be bitter, I am with the cloners ;)

I do not clone myself but I am interested in the technology and security in general. I am baffled by NTL's incompetence...

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Video Guard has never been hacked all that hackers can do is use subscribed Video Guard cards in other STB's.

---------- Post added at 18:44 ---------- Previous post was at 18:42 ----------

at the end of the day it aint hard to get cable for free, if you know what your doing. me on the other hand have never tried.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Beware all you "cable stealer's" out there, remember the guilt Homer Simpson felt when he stole cable.!:redcard:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Can tell your 20, come back and argue when you've matured some more.

Disappointment? nah...the cloners are still moaning over the encrypted configs for the modems and that isnt even rolled out everywhere yet, will be a fun day when it is.

And they are using the same system as sky...which is unhackable, so guys like you wont be able to steal forever :)

P.S I find it highly amusing how your showing off about getting boxes back on with new emus, they just contain the new keys, which will be changed again in a few hours, making them again unusable, dont you get that?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Because, of course, the skills of you 'coders' could never be put to any better use than stealing cable services could they?

I mean, what better way to utilise your l33t 5k1lz than to 'hack' (and I use that term in the perjoritive sense often applied by modern popular media, not the respectful sense in which is has been applied to some of the greatest true hackers of our time) cable set-top boxes so you can get your daily dose of boobies and football?

I only hope that two things happen:

1) that the cable operators find a way to shaft you no-hope, service stealing, thieves, for good, and
2) that they work out who you are and take the money they've saved by not having to maintain a service to your dodgy boxes and spend it screwing you for every penny you have.

Have a nice day though :)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

totally agree,

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What sort of fool comes on a cable forum and boasts how easy it is to steal cable from a company the vast majority of us pay our hard earned cash to?:dunce:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

*NDS never revealed/published any details of its Videoguard system.
*NDS is partially owned by the News corporation.

Did NTL buy any of these?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

For anyone who wants a good giggle at there expense. Just posted in another forum

:LOL: note the spelling

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

:LOL: :rofl:

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Having atrocious spelling seems to be a requirement for posting over there.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

It still makes me :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Nice one, not so clever now is he.:LOL:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

It makes you wonder how these people log in to the forum :erm:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Trouble is most computer programming languages rely on dodgy spelling. :(

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Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Haha...now that's pure class!

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Only a minor inconvenience,soon be AU again.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I suggest that you look at your spelling before noting theirs! Do you make the difference between 'there' and 'their'?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Course you will, chummy..........

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

I suggest you look at your own grammar before correcting others ;)

"I suggest you look at your own spelling before correcting others! Don't you know the difference between "there" and "their"?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I think someone is unable to grasp sarcasm and satire/irony?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Grow up.

Why is it that at least one grammar and spelling expert will turn up and try to be a hero.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Hmm, obviously some people have not heard/do not know that there is more than one way to say something...

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Oh give me a break. Go and take a chill pill before you burst a vain.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Oh, I'm as chilled as a fridge, just having a laugh on the big problem, that hackers have in front of them... oh, wait, it takes a couple of minutes to sort out... time for a bier then and a nice not paid for tv night...

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I thought about chipping my box - but then thought it looked nicer without the scratches.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I get to watch cable for free too.

Admittedly, I have to do it with several mirrors so I can look through my neighbours window, and I do mean I can watch it, not hear it - but still, I'm saving money

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

The difference is my friend you are not stealing from the rest of us.;)

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Just his next door neighbour - but that's ok, because his next door neighbour is sleeping with M_l_m's cat............

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

no NTL didnt VM uses Nagravision which on the other hand has been hacked.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

just like to say it does not matter, if it box , software , sat, some will hack it , or re-engineer it be cause it can be done and as for stealing , copied music cds, games , movies, chipped consols, mp3 ringtones etc etc etc , borrowing games etc etc , listen to the radio in a shop who has no licence (hairdressers) stealing, i could go on but no body is perfect and nobody has the right to cast the first stone unless he or she is perfect

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

true

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I wouldn't "cast the first stone", but when somebody comes on a forum boasting how easy it is to steal cable, which we all pay for, when there are enough problems on the network due to over subscription, I for one have absolutely no qualms telling him what he is doing is wrong.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

roflmao

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Personally I wouldnt be able to sleep with the worry - Id just feel guilty! :(

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Yeap, I agree with you. TraxData posted that VM uses the same technology as Sky, I was disputing that...

---------- Post added at 06:57 ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 ----------

The RSA system has been around for ages and nobody cracked it.

---------- Post added at 07:08 ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 ----------

Coders can of course boast that defeated a multi-million dollar incompetent company, why not? Samson v Goliath. It's NTL that should be ashamed for their luck of security. It's simply humiliating for NTL.

If NTL cannot secure their own boxes/revenue, then do you trust them with your own data?

NTL is simply incompetent, they should kiss Murdoch's butt and beg him to use NDS to secure their boxes. :p:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I think some of you are missing a point here. I also looked at the other forums, and it seems to me that those who steal cable also have other paid for Virgin services, probally broadband and phone along with a STB on a low package. From what I can gather most of the people with the dodgy boxes use them to get the premium channels that cost extra. These are invariably Sky Sports and Sky Movies.
Virgin pass on the premiums from these channels to Sky, with very little profit to themselves. Most of Virgins revenue comes from the installation of all the three services and the monthly charge for running them, not from Sky's premium channels.
Are Virgin serving Sky's purpose here?
Shouldnt the boffins at Virgin really be sorting out the criminally poor HD content..................?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Nagravision 2 has been hacked, nagravision3 as now used by a number of european sat providers is still going strong (please don't confuse card sharing/copying with cracking)

As both NDS (companies like Sky for a couple of years) and Nagra3 (now used by D+ since December) have both resisted cracking you'd think that VM would jump at the next available chance to upgade to these methods....


Kymmy

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

So.....

Because some people are already doing illegal things that makes it ok for other people to do it as well?

Nah, don't buy that.

I think, and I'm sure the other like-minded people on CF that share my point of view on this will forgive me for being blunt, what it actually boils down to is this:

There are some thieving, low-life, no-good, ignorant, disrespectful, arrogant, stupid, morons who are stealing services that other people are paying for.

Other thieving, low-life, no-good, ignorant, disrespectful, arrogant, stupid, morons find out that this is happening (because the original thieving, low-life, no-good, ignorant, disrespectful, arrogant, stupid, morons brag about it like idiot kids after their first alcoholic experience) and decide to prove that they're thieving, low-life, no-good, ignorant, disrespectful, arrogant, stupid, morons, by doing the same thing.

But.....they seem to have missed the fact that just because someone's a low-life, no-good, ignorant, disrespectful, arrogant, stupid, moron, doesn't make it ok for them to be a thief.

---------- Post added at 09:00 ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 ----------


Really? Wow :shocked:

That's great!!

I'll call Future-Mrs-Raistlin and tell her we can stop paying Income Tax, Council Tax, Car Tax, VAT, Duty on Fuel, Stamp Duty, Inheritence Tax, and tax on our savings.....after all, we'd still be paying for one service (the NHS and our pensions through NI contributions) so why should we have to pay for the rest?

Sorry, but if anybody thinks that because they've been generous enough to get a subscription to the lowest package that a provider does (never mind kind enough to pay for telephone rental, and conscientious enough to cough up for the calls that they make), it should be ok for them for them to steal the premium services, then they're an idiot :dunce:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

People 'steal' because they can... and who is it stealing from here?, "Which we all pay for", do you personally lose out? - NO.

You pride yourself on paying for something that others can get for free...
The point im trying to make is that many of the replies here are from 'Victims' of these box thieves, however i dont see any Virgin Media Officials or Richard Branson posting on the site and its them who are ultimately losing out.

I myself dont condone this, i pay my subscriptions, but until the day that VM rapidly increases their prices because of these people im not going to play the
victim - in reality i am (we are) the guy thats payed £40+ per month for the last few years to watch tv, they are the ones that pay £100+ 1 time and have gotten it free for the last few years - if my moral stance was a bit different i know which id prefer.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

1. :welcome: to Cable Forum


2. Yes.

VM have to ensure that their network and other infrastructures and systems are capable of carrying all of the load that they're subjected to.

The addition of several thousand 'hacked' boxes places additional load on the network.

All of this work costs money. The more work there is to do the more money it costs.

VM (like any other sensible company) attempt to recoup their operating costs by covering it with what they charge to their paying customers.

The more load, the more work, the more their paying customers get charged.


3. Almost.

I pride myself in not STEALING something.

Just because you CAN get something for free (that packet of sweets on the shop display, that DVD in Tesco, that CD in HMV, your car [if you own one]) it doesn't make it right to do so.


4. See my point at 2. above.


5. But it isn't, and neither is mine, and that's what makes us different from the rest of the **** in this country that have no respect for anybody else's lives/property.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

In order to change encryption systems Virgin have to simulcrypt for a while. This means that two encryption systems are used in parallel, the Nagra system and the replacement system. Some of Virgins kit is not capable of simulcrypting, so Virgin cannot do this. Eventually the kit will be upgraded so simulcryption can be used, and the new encryption will be rolled out but it will take quite some time for them to send out new smartcards before they then finally turn off the Nagra encryption. It won't happen overnight one night!

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

So are all boxes that are being used illegally getting hit ie chipped boxes and the imported German ones?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

They don't do that out of charity, or some sense of duty. They do that to ensure that the next engineer that looks in their local street box doesn't look at their connection and think "Oh, there's a connection not being used, I'll just unhook it and us it for someone else."
Maybe. Still doesn't justify theft of service though.
Err, more money would probably help sort of HD.

Look, I am not going out of my way to defend Virgin. Truth be told, most big companies would shaft their suppliers given half the chance (in my experience), and I suspect VM would, but bear in mind this: OnDigital.


OnDigital used an easy to crack encryption system, with the result that (they suspect) over half the DTT boxes in use were using dodgy cards to access premium content. OD folded with huge lossess.

One or two people using chipped boxes won't affect VM. Several hundred people using chipped boxes won't affect VM. Several thousand people using chipped boxes WILL affect VM.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

One of the people working for the company doing the encyrption for On Digital released a document onto the internet which spelt out the inner workings of the On Digital encryption system. It wasn't hacked. Nobody has hacked any encryption, they have found back doors into certain versions of smartcards which have enabled them to find the Master keys

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

The end result was still the same.. Lots of people getting access to content they didn't pay for.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Yep, which is the same way as Nagra2 got done on D+, they were running 2 different encryptions using the same key, one was already known and by using that info they managed to extrapolate a master key for Nagra2.

Even RSA/MD5/WEP and other keyed algorithams don't really get cracked but instead they're brute forced....it's like trying a combination safe with every single possiblecombination....there might be many millions but one of them is right :)

Until VM do change thier encryption method then unfortunately there will be chipped boxes out there probably putting up the cost for everyone else (even if 10% of the people with chipped boxes instead had a legal subscription then VM would probably have a slightly lower price) but beware even if they do change the encryption method it won't stop card sharing/copying networks :(:(:(

Kymmy

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I've posted this before, but my sister used to work for the DSS. One day, DSS security were giving a speech, and demonstrating the anti-copy protection on their then newly redesigned Giro cheque. Obviously, she couldn't discuss what they were with me.

Anyhow, the demonstrator said (at the end) that they knew that the protection would be broken in 6-8 months. So, my sister asked why bother spending hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of pounds designing the new form. The reply? The DSS will save 10s of millions of pounds in fraudulent payments while the copiers are working on copying the cheque.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

At the end of the day it comes down to two different views in my opinion, those who play by the rules and pay for their cable, those that don't and steal it, simple as that.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

no they dont VM only uses Nagravision. if you do a search for the model numbers that we have ie SMT-2110C then you'l see that they have Nagravision cams embedded, so in order for what you say to work we'll all need new STBs.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Are my eyes playing tricks with me or are the google adverts at the top of this very page advertising for these dodgy boxes?!

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Videoguard was developed by NDS which is part of News Corp which is owned by Ruppert Murdoch who owns Sky. only News Corp companies eg Sky Italy can use Videoguard as they wont allow anyone else to use it. Nagravision & Videoguard are two completely different systems while Videoguard is secure Nagravision isint.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:40 ----------

lol do uno something i was just thinking the same thing.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Stoopid Google Ad-Words thing.

Not sure the Team can do anything about it.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Much as we'd like to the google adsense stuff is based on the page content. the phrase "chipped cable" clearly invites all sorts of undesirable ads. Like spammers, as fast as one ad is blocked, another will take it's place :(

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

if you click on the links tho you dont really find any chipped NTL boxes for sale.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

im only a broadband user and used to have cable tv at my previous address, with my new house a dish was already there so i went over to sky instead

What puzzles me mind, why are admins letting people come here and admit there stealing cable?

To be honest you cant trust no one, people might come on here moaning about it, but how do you actually know they or there family havent got a chipped box and come on here for other things. You dont.....

p.s i havent got one so dont reply by saying "for all we know you got one"

i will say one thing mind, my brother does have one, he lives in london and the worst thing is, hes a police officer lol, he tells me many officers do have chipped boxes, mind you i always knew police officers were just as bad as criminals at times.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I moved from Virgin to sky about 2 years ago. I retained the virgin broadband and the phone line and told them I don't want the TV. They told me its free (basic channels) and insisted I kept the box. I explained I had no space for a redundant box and they simply told me its up to me what I want to do with it. I don't even know where the box is now, probably thrown out in the bin.

A friend told me I can connect a 'dodgy' box to the cable feed coming in. In all honesty I cannot be bothered with this as I'd get too much aggro from the missus and I dont feel its right anyway. Why doesnt Virgin simply disconnect the feeds going to lines where there are no boxes on the other end? Can they not tell that?

On a separate note, will I now have a problem if I decide to move to Virgin + as I cant find my old box?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

It wouldn't make any difference. We disallow the discussion of how it's done but how do we know someone isn't just bragging?

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

your internet & TV come down the same cable so if they disconnect the TV you will also loose your internet. also as you already have Sky it would be cheaper for you to get Sky HD/+ & you'l get more HD channels if thats what your after.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

good point

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

i'd get one in a heartbeat just to see some adult channels but at the same time, i'm scared if i got caught.

so i choose to keep myself abover bored and legal.

mind you, i wouldn't put it past peeps who are posting in this thread have one. lol

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

One obvious way to stop people boasting about uing 'chipped' boxes or cloned modems would be to pass their IP addresses on to VM but we do not do that and neither will we ever. The onus to catch these people lies soley with VM. If people want to brag about using such equipment then let them, personally I believe it says more about them than anything else.

Before people start handing judgement on to these individuals it's worth considering the "let he without sin cast the first stone" view.

From what I have been told, VM are seriously clamping down on illegal use of their equipment so I believe we should leave them to it.

Just to reiterate however, we will not permit the discussion of how to obtain services without paying for them. That includes describing how equipment should be modified, the name of specific boxes, links to websites which offer such services such as 'keys' etc and the invitation of PMs to 'find out more'.

Those who do any of this will find themselves booted off VM rather quickly.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Yes you will and when the time comes for you to cancel they are going to bill you £250 for it so get saving! :shocked:

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

I know Virgin use Nagra, I said in my post. I also used to work with the encryption for Virgin. However you are wrong that the STB's will need replacing. At worst it will have to be a different version of Nagra (most likely), but I'm sure a code drop to the STB's will allow any different encryption system to be used with the embedded CAM. Remember all of the complexity is in the smart cards and the rooms within the Super Headends not the CAM.

Re: All Chipped Cable Boxes Going Down
 

Course not, Google places adverts based on the context of the page. Now if the site was running Phorm / OIX advertising you would be seeing an advert for that next romantic vacation you were planning ;)

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

But they are so so bad at collecting boxes. They wanted both my pace boxes back when I ceased service 18m+ ago. They arranged a collection and missed it, another and missed it and so on. Finally the day I am moving. Take them with you we will collect them from your new address. Fine I said, you're sending someone over to New York to pick them up... Quiet pause on the phone, well can you leave them with someone else. No, why should I make your screw up's someone elses problem. Oh I remember with deep joy the 6 months it took for them to close my account.