Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Blimey, these blooming immigrants, coming here, working for the minimum wage, forcing our enlgish workforce out of work because we cant afford to work on the same low wages as they do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7288430.stm

Well doesn't seem to be the case in Peterborough. This farmer pays over the minimum wage and only has 3 English people on his workforce.

Someone posted something on another thread something along the lines that many or most Asian businesses are built on the backing of drugs, based on some asians being involved in drugs. If I was apply the same reasoning to this article I'd have to conclude that many white english men are lazy and dole scrounging.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Theres a lot of people saying that poeple who say immigrants should get out the country are rasict, but I have to agree with you there mate.

Theres nothing wrong with people moving in/out the country, but the government are complete noobs and have lost control on how many people are allowed to come in.

It's true, the lower jobs in Britain that are needed were for the brute force Brits in this country and made things work, but are now these jobs are being taken by immigrants.

One day, if this trend continues, everyone origiating in the UK will have to move out. When this does, im moving to France or Germany AND I WILL WORK.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I'm not saying immigrants should get out of the country.

And the reason why these jobs are being taken up by immigrants (well in the above example anyway) are because locals dont want them, and not, as usually is assumed, that they are low paid.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Well a sizable chunk of them are. :(

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

LOl you tell em Derek :tu:

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

My main concern is the room. This country can only hold so many people and if it continues, there wont be any room left.

It's one of the reasons why house prices have gone up, to my knowlege anyway.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Says the Scotsman. :D


Seriously, a lot of the English men I meet appear to think that just because they are white and English, that the world owes them something.

I personally am White and English, and worked bloody hard to get where I am. But, then my parents made sure that I didn't think the world owed me something when I was bought up.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Beutiful. Well said.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Oh don't worry I see more than my fair share of lazy Scotsmen and Irishmen most days. (Not too many Welsh though, the border controls are obviously working :D )

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

lol! :tu:

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

There are lazy, dishonest and just plain nasty elements in all races and nationalities. Yes there are a proportion of people here who feel the country owes them a living and scrounge off the rest of us but the same applies elsewhere, including Eastern Europe.

There are also a group of people here whose commitments (mortgages, rents etc.) make it far more difficult for them to accept lower paid jobs. Those who come here for a few years and intend to go back to Poland for example have an added incentive to live cheap and save knowing that what they earn here will go very much further back home. It's for this reason that my brother in law (an Engineering Graduate) from E. Europe used to work in Italy picking fruit for several months every year. The locals there wouldn't do the work so he and his peers did and what they earned, although low by Italian standards, subsidised him very well back home for the rest of the year. Sound familiar?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Yes, I see what you mean.

Like £2 is $1, earning money for their life back home. Nothing wrong with that.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Well, that and inflationary rises, and the amount of people buying second houses, and the amount of people buying houses as buy-to-let. Other than that, you're spot on ;)

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I dont understand the point of the story. These people are earning 24K, they're working 60-70hrs a week for that money which is not much above the minimum wage

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I think the point is that the locals are coming away with lines like

So there are plenty of jobs out there but people not wanting to do them as they think it's beneath them to work instead of waiting for the latest giro to appear.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

errm i think its more that people wont work for the minimum wage because its less than the benefits they already get. It's all well and good saying there are 24k jobs around on the farms but in truth "Pete the Pole" is actually holding down the jobs of two people by doing a significant number of hours in order to get the 24K. Thats only possible when you live away from home and therefore dont have family and friends to spend time with.

Im not saying the spongers shouldnt get off of their backsides

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

"It's monotonous, physical work with 60-hour weeks, but no-one's complaining - or taking a tea break."
Don't know much about employment law, but that sounds illegal to me.

"...there's little appetite for taking one of those vegetable-picking jobs of up to £7-an-hour."
Ahh...so it's "up to" £7 per hour.

btw...who used to do the crop picking before the Eastern Europeans started doing it?

.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

hmm

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I don't understand - how can a person refuse to work (and get paid by the government) when there are jobs available? Local jobs, that don't need qualifications.

Isn't it called Jobseeker's Allowance?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Students I expect.

I remember working for £3 an hour as a student, about 12 years ago...

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

People miss the point that these people spend all day working to get the 24k, live in a house with umpteen others doing paying little rent and save every penny that they make.... fine you might say, but the amount they actually spend in this country to help the economy is very minimal. Most of the money is saved up and then flows out of the country after a couple of years when they can't stand the work any more. So we have a net loss to the economy. They don't spend much while here, use the local services and then cash out on their way home.

You could compare it to someone who walks into a Las Vegas casino, enjoys the free food and drink, does one bet, wins and walks out.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Manual labour has been dying out in most developed countries for decades now. It isn't simply immigration that are preventing british workers from doing manual labour, it's capitalism.

We have been a skills based workforce/economy for a long time now, those who do not have those skills and are unwilling to learn (And I do not mean University/College exactly but also trades such as electrician/plumbers etc etc) will find it harder to find jobs.

Basically, no one has a right to a job, they get it by their own merits. If you find yourself unable to offer anything more than a immigrant who may not even be fluent in the language and may have no further education or training then the employer will go for the cheapest option.

---------- Post added at 16:06 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------

Do you have ay statistics to say the majority are doing this? I have no doubt there are a minority that are, but I kinda think that the majority will stay in this country or at least give the same back. If they back quick enough they won't have been much of a drain on the country and properly contributed a net gain...

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

It's alright giving an annual salary, if the job actually lasts for a year. If it only last a few months before they have to go back on benefits with all the hassle and delay that involves, £25,000/year for 70hrs/week probably doesn't sound that inviting.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

oh dear another white bashing thread, so some of us are white live with it we have to;)

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Don't see how it's "White Bashing"

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

So you believe the majority of short term seasonal agricultural workers are aiming to stay for the rest of their natural lives in this country picking tulips etc. in the fields of cambridgeshire/lincolnshire from early morning until late evening?

Here are a few links to statistics about the net benefit of ALL immigrant workers to this country, not just seasonal agricultural workers:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/faqs.asp

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/Brie...DP_perhead.asp

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/Brie...to_the_hol.asp

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/Brie...mmigration.asp

So the net gain of immigrant labour to the country is the equivalent of about 4p per head per week. Now that's all immigrant workers, including highly skilled ones, so where does that leave the guys living miles away from a town on a farm and picking fruit/flowers from dusk 'til dawn. Bet they don't contribute too much.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

quote "I'd have to conclude that many white english men are lazy and dole scrounging"....................................... .................it was a joke hence the ;)

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

If you are going to quote me for a spot of white bashing then I'd appreciate it if you quoted the important bit at the start of the sentence ....you know the bit below that starts with If......

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

as we're stepping into that alternative universe can I recommend the following movie in order to help you get into those shoes!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114928/

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I know of a major Global company with its roots in the UK,that is currently laying off workers in the UK and meanwhile,it is recruiting workers in Poland from within a similar industry. The reasons they are doing this is of course:

(a) To suppress the indigenous workforce and let them know that they are easily replaced
(b) Its easier and cheaper to poach foreign workers from similar industries rather than recruit and train UK workers

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

i quoted the part that interested me, and the post was meant as a joke, was yours ?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

It would be if Englishmen were only white ;)

Hardly, you're completely ignoring the money and tax that the company they work for produces.
Without the workforce, there'd be no business, no products to sell, no tax to be collected.

Similarly with the reports of a small increase in GDP, when used to suggest it's poinless having them, neglects to acknowledge that without them, there would be a greater decrease in GDP, as it is presumed that indiginous workers would fill the gap, when this is clearly not the case.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Two sides to every story and i have seen both sides and heard it from the people involved. In some cases yes immigrant workers are taking jobs off the brit's by undercutting them and on the other side they take jobs a lot of brits wouldn't do. This to me is in a way a non story as it happens everyday and has happened for quite a while guess they had nothing else to bother about.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

The Rumanians mainly used to do it, on seasonal worker visa's.

Anyone notice just how many minimum wage jobs you see these days. Five years ago you could easily earn six or seven pounds an hour in most factories, agency workers also earnt more, not anymore though, wages have been forced down and kept down, giving no incentive for the government to force the work shy into taking work when the are armies of Polish to do the 'jobs we don't want'. I also love the way the government points to tax credits as a way of making up your wages, how about making wages higher and doing away with all the complicated forms at the same time

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

You're ignoring the fact that this government is happy to pay lazy trash to sit on their arses claiming dole money while foreign workers come to the country, do the job and send the money home. BTW did you read any of the links, the actual benefit to this country of immigrant workers is tiny, but the benefit to this country of getting a load of work-shy wasters off theirs backsides and force them into work would be immeasurable!

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Hi Derek, CFT, l would like to reply to your comment, on a couple of points, When, l lost my job, 2 and a half years ago, l was out of work for nearly 3 months, l went for three interviews per day, yes, there are jobs out there, but the wages are lousy, from 12.000 per year to 15.000 grand a year, you cannot live on that wage, no matter what benefits, boosts the wages up, and l will tell you why, employers will place ads, at the lowest wage, as they know that - immigrants, will work long hours for this sort of wage, even weekends, and it was reported on TV only on Monday of this week, that an employers, loves taking them on, as the English community won't do the work for a low wage, in my working life, l have cleaned toilets, kitchens, and l have worked in Homeless accomadations, which have been filthy, l have stood in grease traps for hours, some 6 feet deep, but we were paid to clean them, the firm won contracts all over the UK, to clean any place, and we took on many immigrants, and we were told, not to tell them what we were getting, as they were doing the jobs that we couldn't touch, now 15 years down the line, the same problem is still there, but the problem that has to be sorted out is the employer, they won't pay a decent wage, as they know that they will get someone to do it, at say £3-00 an hour, and before, people say the mimimum wage has to be paid, you go to any London hotel, and ask a member of staff, from the kitchen side, and most of them will be casual, it is this Government fault for letting them come here, l feel sorry for anyone, who cannot get a job, as l have been in that position twice, once for two years, and the other for 3 months, and l tried everything for a job.:)

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

arthur 12-15k per year is considered a good wage in lincolnshire ,and families do live on it.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

A possible solution would be to take away all the benefits from the scroungers, maybe that would provide the kick up the **** they need to do the jobs they feel they can't do because they're too comfortable being provided for.

Make them uncomfortable and hungry! :soapbox:

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

but isnt it every Englishman's right to lay in bed till noon ,get up have a tennants super,role a fag ,phone in a bet ,then lay back and watch cable tv till bed time 5am, getting a job would severely affect there social life, and shurly be an infringement of there human rights.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

This has been going on for years. About 5 years ago I had a russian girlfriend. A few times we visited friends of hers, living in houses in West Drayton. One of them was a 3 bed semi and there were about 16 people living in it. There were mattresses everywhere. All of them were illegally working in the UK at heathrow airport, cleaning hotel rooms there. They were mainly from Poland, Romania and Russia. All were here on either tourist or student visas, with no right to work, but were all working full time hours. One couple had overstayed their 6 month tourist visa by about 9 months and had been working the whole time in several jobs. Their aim was to save as much money as possible in about 2 or 3 years, before returning to Romania.

When my then girfriend arrived from russia with a friend, they were contacted by a russian guy running an agency in a very impressive building just off trafalgar square. He wanted to know if they wanted fake visa stamps, asylum documentation, or NI cards to enable them to work. My girlfriend didn't accept, but her friend worked for a few weeks in hotels at heathrow, before disappearing into London to work in a hotel there.

Now, most of the countries that these illegal workers came from are in the EU and they can do this legally.

---------- Post added at 19:18 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

You don't need cable for Jeremy Kyle, a freeview box should suffice.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Indeed, average pay in lincoln is 9-12k, anything higher and your considered "lucky/middleclass"

I've lived on 12k before (before taxes) and i could barely afford to put food in my stomach with rent/taxes/bills etc...Unsure how some people do it, especially with the current price of petrol.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Hi papa smurf, you wouldn't be able to live in London on that wage, in other parts of the UK, you might be able to, l went onto the Job seekers web site, and saw a vacancy for £13.000 per year, and that included working a Saturday,:)

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

13 quid a year! wow - talk about slave drivers

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

having worked in London ,i can say hand on heart i wouldn't live there for £13,000,000 per year ,whatever the fascination is i cant see it,we might not be rich ooop north but at least i can breath in the fresh salty sea air[as opposed to smog]and live like a king on bugger all wages,and have enough left for a bag o chips ont way home from the ferret races.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

It's not the same reasoning, there is no logical (imo) connection between the two apart from your desire to make one.
I do, however agree with you in your assesment of some white English men :tu: :D

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Forcing the workshy into work would result in a workforce unwilling to actually work.
Why should an employer have to pay someone to laze around at work being unproductive?

And yes, I did follow those links and read them, and as I said, they neglect to take into consideration that without those immigrant workers, the work would not get done, which would turn the small GDP increase into a larger GDP decrease.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I'm not sure, when I was a student, many years ago, it was traditional to exploit the tax advantages of earning up to your allowance by working all hours flower cutting, potato picking, pea processing, etc, when you could, during the holidays. We did get grants to be students, then, of course..

Presumably 'these days' any earnings count towards the threshold of when you need to start paying back the student loan, so there is less incentive to earn any money until you can 'really' afford it ;)

That is a totally cynical, subjective & unresearched comment, I admit, but I wonder if there is any truth in it?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Hmmm, I think this statement may have something wrong with it! Workshy means unwilling to work.... they are already unwilling to work. I propose that they are made to work for their dole money, maybe then they'd get their arses in gear and get a real job. Make them pick the flowers and fruit that immigrants do, for their dole money. Other countries do it, so why should our country be any different.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Or they'll just do more of what they currently do, steal from shops and sell around the estate (used to get them knocking on my door all the time trying to sell anything from bacon to inkjet printers).
Have you actually lived amongst the workshy and gotten to know them?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

more stereotyping against young males bbc as usual. I am not disputing people refusing to work and such but the way the article is written has a clear agenda.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Yes thanks, and I won't be going back, quite happy where I am now. I also happen to work in west london in an area that is probably 25% asylum refugees, 25% polish, 40% asian and 10% white, so I'm well versed with the type of person you are talking about. Last friday in the pub across the road from my office we were offered cameras and watches by a couple of 'salt of the earth' fellows!

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

So those who are allowed to work but are living off benefits (lets not forget asylum seekers aren't allowed to work thanks to the right wing press and public) and supplimenting their income with criminal activities, are in your opinion more likely to set themselves straight and get jobs if their benefits are cut, or increase their criminal activities?

Incidently, do you not get many white Polish or asylum seekers?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

It is all to easy these days to use and apply the term "workshy" on people that you don't know and have no idea of their personal circumstance. For me and my family just to maintain our benefit standard of living i need to earn £14,000 a year. Most jobs where i live are in the £10,000 - £12,000 range and i would not be able to manage. I am not alone in this equation it applies to many thoudans of people in the UK.

Before anyone says that benefit gives too good a standard living it doesn't standard of living is not great but liveable where it impacts is things like rent and council tax and in my case prescriptions which would amount to about an extra £500 a month and while that doesn't sound a lot to some of you it's enough to complicate the situation.

Also before anyone says in work benefits wouldn't cover it all and i have discussed this with someone who is now a friend at the jobcentre. This government has it's reasons for wanting to stir up trouble on the benefit front and biggest reason is they have used all the other benefits over the years to hide unemployment and now it is coming home to roost.

But rather then admit bad handling no we will slap a label on all claimants and get public opinion against them so no one says a thing when we hit them all hard.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Um other than you Rizzy, who's mentioned people on benefits who aren't workshy?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

My, you must be making yourself feel very big trying pick holes in posts every which way. You were the one asking about my past encounters with non-working people.

I don't have an entire breakdown of every asylum seeker ever to have claimed it in the UK, western europe, the world, of in this particular part of London, but going from my experiences I would say that 99% of the asylum seekers in the area around my office are from north africa with a few from the middle east, and if you push me, I'd say it would be fairly rare to get a white asylum seeker these days after the fall of the former soviet union.

I don't particularly give a rats **** if these people turn into model citizens, probably not, but not giving them free handouts from the state would be a start, or are you entirely happy with the situation? I don't know, maybe you're sat at home now with a room full of stolen goods watching Jeremy Kyle and wondering when you can appear. You certainly seem to be overly concerned that the long-term unemployed who refuse to work are left to their own devices.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I was happy with asylum seekers being able to work to pay their way until their case was heard, however right wingers and anti-immigrant/asylum seeker groups managed to get things changed so that rather than paying their way, they have to manage on lower benefits than some scrote who's not done a days work but happened to be born here.
So how do you feel that skilled people who've left their home country for fear of their lives are now here, not being put to work but instead being forced to live on benefits?

You say you know what workshy are like, you say you know they suppliment their benefit payments through crime, so do you truly believe that if their benefits were stopped they'd happily get low paid jobs and not increase their criminal activities?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

No, but on the other hand I wasn't advocating just stopping benefits and letting them have more time to commit their crimes. I was suggesting they be made to work for a living at jobs they definitely wouldn't want in order to force them. I'd also bring back borstal-like institutions to make sure youngsters were put on the straight and narrow like they used to be and no I'm not advocating institutional child-abuse before that's in your next post. The trouble these days is there is no way that society can make these people snap out of it, the police are tied up doing paperwork and have minimal effect these days for fear of being disciplined. The courts don't impose anything like realistic sentences, mainly due tot he fact the prisons are full to bursting. These people know their rights better than their alphabet and can get off with anything, and this government has done nothing to stop it the last 10 years. Instead they've give us more glorified shabby traffic wardens, sorry PCSO's.

You seem to post as someone who thinks they have all the answers, so what is your answer? You like picking other people's opinions/ideas/thoughts apart, what are yours?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

How would you force them?
Why should employers have to put up with people who they either can't sack, or workers who don't care if they do get sacked?

I'd remove the situation where someone can be better off if they remain on benefits, introduce a "army housing" policy on social housing, where the better you keep the property, the better the property will be made/you moved to, and if you do not adhere to the terms of your social housing contract, you will be moved into more basic accomodation.
I'd also re-introduce (this time fully) the Tripartite education system.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Oh great so we penalise people for not having the money to have a lovely house :rolleyes:. As someone that likes his statistics Xaccers can you give me some for how many of these workshy scroungers you think there are ??.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

You misunderstand. I'm not adocating they are given nice cushy jobs in offices or factories (Do we have any of them in the UK these days), I'd make them pick up litter, clean up grafitti etc. crappy jobs that they don't want to do, then maybe if they then decide that working in a real job doesn't look so bad, a phased withdrawel of benefits from them.

Never heard of that army housing policy. Must have come in during the last few years. Normally you'd get posted, request a house at the new base, and get one according to whether you were commissioned (Officers quarters) or non-commissioned (Normal married quarters) and what was available. Depending on the number of kids you have, you might get more bedrooms. I think we were only ever moved twice mid-posting to a different house, once to a slightly better house and once from a set of quarters in a german town into one on the main base. You could always put your name down and request a better quarter in a different set of quarters, but I don't think it was ever on how well you'd kept your old one. You had to keep them clean, because if you didn't you'd get fined when you had you inspection before you left it.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Well all those immigrants who are claiming Child Benefit for their kids here and/or overseas will be delighted.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

What jobs are those?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Low end unskilled factory work, warehouse work and the building trade for labourers. A lot of the big company's that employed people for decent wages have long left the area due to a combination of factors.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Can you go back and read what I actually said please?
You'll notice that I said no such thing as you claim.

You do not need money to keep a house tidy.
It doesn't take more than £10 a month on cleaning products to keep a house clean.
If you treat a house provided by the state like crap, never clean, abuse your neighbours, punch holes in walls etc, then you should be moved into less expensive and more basic accomodation, to make way for people who do deserve decent accomodation and will appreciate it.

Absolute figures of workshy scroungers doesn't matter, 1 is an unnecessary burden on the rest of us, more than one is obviously an even greater burden.

---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 ----------

No, that's exactly what I thought you said.
Though you haven't said how you'd force someone, who doesn't want to do a cushy job in an office, to do a non-cushy job picking up litter or cleaning grafitti.
Bring back gang masters with whips perhaps? :) (temping, very tempting!).

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Bang on there its all been propoganda to manipulate the massess constant news reports about those on incapacity benefits and other reports saying all claimaints of any unemployment benefit has it too easy. When the real truth is the lowest paid jobs dont offer a liveable wage. They trying to give the impression peoples taxes are going to fund social welfare when in reality in 2008 alone its predicted over 100billion pound is going to be injected into the banking sector (seen any news reports on this?) making unemployments benefits seem like pennies.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:25 ----------

80% of unskilled jobs in my area are under 14k a year. Even semi skilled jobs are in the same wage bracket.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Speaking of which, did Darling mention Northern Rock? Strange. He did mention plastic bags, though.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I am not making excuses for the goverment, or Northern Rock (who directly or indirectly caused their own problems), but the reason the government did that is that if they hadn't, and Northern Rock had collapsed, it could have caused the collapse of one (or more) of the larger banks (Barclays, Natwest or HSBC). If this had happened, in all likelyhood, our economy would have collapsed . Because, thanks to various factors including high property prices, far too many people are very heavily in debt.

I don't think anyone is stating all benefit claimants are workshy scroungers, but a *lot* of claimants are. When I was on benefits, I spent most of my days looking for work. Similarly, a friend of mine was a student at my Uni. Every day she came in, she'd spend the whole day working on her studies. He (apparently unaware I could see him from where I used to take a break) would wait until she was out of sight, then nip in to the local pub for the day. Yes, they were both on as many grants as a couple with no kids could get, but she worked hard. He didn't work, and when he did get a job, he normally lasted 2-3 days before getting fired.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Specifically in this thread, the "workshy scroungers on benefits" refers to (strangely enough, like you, I'm not sure why some people don't understand this) people on benefits who are workshy.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Whats stopping people from training up and getting better jobs?.....and if the better paid jobs aren't in the area then commuting to them?

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I'm using my enforced time off work to re-train so that when I've finished my treatment I can return to work much better qualified.

I don't really care what work I do, I started off as a cleaner in a factory, but while I've got the opportunity to re-train and get that training for free I don't see a problem with doing it.

Am I workshy, probably, but at least I'm doing something about it I guess.

A lot of people (as I've said before) do class me as a scrounger on benefits and some on here have even told me so, although not in public of course :(

---------- Post added at 17:06 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------

What I'm trying to say really is that it doesn't matter who I'm up against, if they are better than me I'd expect them to get the job, so it just means I have to work that bit harder to impress at an interview.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Don't let the idiots get at you. With what life's throwing at you and the way you handle it, you deserve every benefit you're entitled to.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I started off in McD's :tu:
I'm definitely workshy but I love a decent income more than I dislike work :D

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

What worries / irritates me is people who use their disability as a badge, kind of like showing it off. Which is why although I do let people know what's going on with me I don't tend to go on about it too much ;)

This seems to make people get irritated more with disabled people.

Anyway I guess I'd better not get too much off topic.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I know what you mean Jefferson i know people that constantly go on about whats wrong with them in fact in at least one case i know more about them then i know about me. I want a clampdown on the people claiming benefits they are not entitled too and i think any right minded person does. What worries me is this government and the way they will go about it already they are talkling about everyone redoing their medical test for eligibility. This is pure politics and nothing else and when the headlines have died away and they think they have sounded tough enough will allow a backbwench revolt drop it and claim they listen.

Also this government has been happy to shove people onto incap to get them off the unemployment figures i know when i was an official unemployed person everytime i went to the jobcentre i was pressured to go on incap as i had something wrong with me. Blame the system as well as some of the people if the system wasn't so dodgy and shifty itself less people could take advantage of it.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

That, I agree with completely :tu:

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

I am not debating whether the bank bailout was right or wrong but I am not happy they just simply lie to past blame for problems on to a minority vulnerable group of people that are easy targets. The fact remains the so called workshy are actually a very small social cost in comparison to many other things eg. the waste in running the parliament costs more than the entire annual jobseekers allowance budget.

---------- Post added at 00:42 ---------- Previous post was at 00:30 ----------

what better jobs?

As for commuting whats reasonable? eg. I think its unreasonable to have to spend an hour or more travelling to work every day. Then the option would be moving house and I guess that depends on the individuals circumstancesm but its all hype that there is plenty of high paid jobs to go round the truth is there isnt the vast majority of jobs in the country are quite far below the average wage and in some areas like mine (lowest unskilled salaries in england according to official stats in 2006) they are very low. Now I am not writing excuses for people who deliberatly dont work but I if I put myself in a position of a person he has to put food on the table and pay for the roof over their head. Many of the job options now days are temp agency works which is an irregular income might be needed for 1-2 days of the week but not the rest but this is enough for state benefits to be stopped so for starters if I was on job seekers allowance I would only give it up for a full time permanent job not temp agency work, then the income would have to be enough to at least cover my essential bills. If I work out the cost of living for a small bedsit in my area + essential bills such as council tax, heating, tv licence, food etc. and assume no social life no going out etc. then the wage needed just for that is about £7.50 an hour. Someone with kids would be ok as massive child tax credits topups and child benefit but someone without kids gets a very small working tax credit topup. So basically I am saying in that situation I would refuse any job that doesnt keep my essential bills paid so nothing less than a full time 7.50 an hour job. If I was still living with my parents and as such had lower living costs then the situation would be different and a min wage job would pay enough. But I think a lot of people have double standards when they expect others to do what they wouldnt. I have heard people say they wouldnt get out of bed for less than £10 an hour never mind £7 an hour or min wage.

Also its all too easy to say things like "lots" of people are workshy or "lots" are defrauding the system when you dont know their circumstances.

---------- Post added at 00:45 ---------- Previous post was at 00:42 ----------

Yeah it works both ways whilst I will stickup for the people the media and mps are picking on anyone in that situation should always be looking to improve their prospects and training is one thing that helps.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Is Norman Tebbit in the house? :D

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

By commuting an hour to 90 minutes away, and self training gaining qualifications and experience, I've increased my salary by 5 times what it was 10 years ago, and now only 10 minutes from home.

Now I could have sat on my bum and not pushed myself to better jobs, moaned about having a low wage and a dead end job.
Instead I didn't, I looked at my lot, made improvements where needed and reaped the rewards.

Same with my mum who came out of school with 'o' level needlecraft.
She used to do cleaning for IBM and a bit of typing.
Re-trained and now she's doing office work on £20K

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Thats great if you can do it xaccers not everyone can and as for training being all you need to better yourself that doesn't always work either.

Before finally giving into the pressure from the jobcentre to go on incap whenever i didn't get a job i applied for i would phone and ask if there was a specific reason or area that had counted against me. I was told that IT quali's were not the best thing for office work and that i should get a business quali preferably an nvq level 2 for basic office work.

I pushed and got on a training scheme and duly passed my level 2 i still didn't get any firther in the search of a job so again i asked to be told i needed to get realistically an nvq level 3 or above for BASIC office work. Again i went off and got my level 3 all this training meant a day for me of 06.30 - 18.30 and put me in a lot of pain to the point of being completely useless to may family 90% percent of the time but i (being selfish) thought it worth it if i got that magic job.

After having level 3 i again went out looking for a job and this time found the main reason (after some assurance i wouldn't repeat it officially) no one would give me a job they all looked at me and as my medical problem is visual felt i wouldn't last in any job. Reality is i am not alone there are many thousands like me out there and no matter what we do no matter how hard we try and no matter how much we perservere we are not going to get anywhere not because we can't but because others decide for us we can't.

When you have been in that situation then i will fully accept your arguments against benefits and while i accept the vast majority of benefit claimants don't have my or similar problems by the time people get their witchhunt it won't matter as no one will be looking or caring who gets dumped on as long as they are a benefit claimant and therefore an automatic drain on society.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Except you're not understanding my arguments against benefits, as I have none.
I'm all for benefits for people who are actively seeking work, or are unable to work due to situations beyond their control.
For those in positions where they would be worse off in the jobs they are able to do/get than if they stayed on benefits, then the issue isn't those people, it's the system which puts them in that situation.
Bring in a system where you are guarenteed a minimum livable income in a full time role. If there is a specific reason (such as having to look after kids or other family members as a carer) that you can only work part time, or not at all (again such as a full time carer for a disabled family member as an example), then your case should be assessed to ensure it's genuine, and you given benefits up to the minimum livable income.
Basically, the only people who should be penalised are those who genuinely don't want to work and want the state to pay their way. I don't think any sensible person would complain about them having their freeloading lifestyles curtailed.

With them dealt with, it should in theory, free up more funds for those who are actually in need, either by direct funding, or tax cuts.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Unfortunetly that is not how it works in this country and i doubt it ever will.

I have been out of work coming up to 2 and a half months now due to illness...and my health is slowly getting worse in a few ways meaning i cant go back to work, im nearly out of money...and i cant get on dissability, i cant afford to live and pretty soon im going to be royally screwed, yet i see loads of people who just cant be bothered to work having everything paid for them, have HDTVs, nice cars etc and dont have a worry in the world, i find it majorly unfair.

Even people who are not ill in some sort of way find it very hard to climb up the ladder and get somewhere in life, for here instance even a basic minimum wage job requires you to have some sort of qualification or another (just to do very basic work that really needs little skills), suppose answer would be to go to uni get some qualifications and progress yourself, thats fine, if you have the money to do so but when the govt is constantly pushing up fees, tax and the likes, its pretty much impossible. one thing you do find out in the end is companies would rather take people on who have the experience rather than qualifications, but you cant get experience if no one will hire you, and you cant get qualifications if you cant afford to go to uni etc, its a no win situation.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Coral Bookies sales assistant, 25 hours a week plus overtime, minimum wage, qualifications required: ability to count.
My house mate pulls full time hours every week (meaning lots of overtime pay).
To say that minimum wage jobs require qualifications is a load of twaddle. Some jokers may ask for qualifications, but then if you don't have them there are loads of jobs around on min wage or above that require no qualifications.
A simple search on the jobcentre web site shows that.

Of those on benefits that I have had the the pleasure and displeasure to know, those who do not use crime (even benefit fraud) do struggle, and they shouldn't as they work damn hard and want what's best for their families, while those who have the nice TV's, annual holidays to Ibiza, decked out cars etc are the ones who supliment their income through criminal activities (and are the ones who are a displeasure to know).
Basically, if you're a decent law abiding member of society and in a low paid job, you'll struggle. If you're a loafer or a criminal, you can live how you like.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Your right xaccers no one objects to the career benefit claimant being made to get work and contribute. My problem is the way it is going and the way the media are reporting it, it won't just be that group that suffer. This government is so knee jerk and so obsessed with public perception that when not if their great benefit crackdown comes it will hit far more deserving then undeserving.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

That's a very good point about this tabloid run government, they'll do whatever they think will make them look good, rather than what is actually effective, and very rarely do the two cross paths.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

Now i am not a statistics person as some of you know i am more the shoot em all and sort it out later but is there any figures for cross benefit change. What i mean is are there proper figures for how many people come off say jobseekers and are transferred to incap or some other non employment related benefit. I would imagine they would be very enlightening as to how we have ended up with so many on incap and the like. If those figures do not exist publicly then they should and if those sorts of figures are not gathered then a system change is needed so that we the public have a clearer view of benefit. Also another big plus for that system is that it would be a hell of a lot harder for any government to manipulate benefit for political reasons i mean if they say unemployment is down by 200,000 but new incap claimants is up by 199,000 you don't need to be a brain surgeon.

Re: Pesky immigrants, they're taking all our jobs
 

most people have the impression rising incapacity benefit figures is because people are unemployed and pushed onto a different benefit to make the figures look better.

They ignore things like this.

A growing population.
A stressed population.
A incapable health service.
A overworked population.

In these conditions if you think logically people incapacitated will increase, also bear in mind the benefit system is so inflexible it does not reward people trying out work and then finding it doesnt work out they risk losing all their income.