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-   -   Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33629704)

Hugh 10-03-2008 15:42

Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
BBC

"Parents of a heroin addict are to take legal action against the British National Party (BNP) for using a picture of their dead daughter.

Rachel Whitear, 21, was found dead at her flat in Exmouth, Devon, in May 2000, holding a capped syringe.

The photograph, released by her Herefordshire parents to educate people on drugs, was used by Lancashire BNP members on a leaflet.

The BNP's deputy leader said they would not apologise.

The leaflets, which were circulated in Preston, linked heroin use to Muslim communities"

crazymaniac 10-03-2008 15:59

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
That's a strange position to die in...

Taf 10-03-2008 16:07

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

...released by her Herefordshire parents to educate people on drugs...
If the photo is released, it's free to use, although I think using it for "racist" literature would be too far... but having not seen the literature I cannot comment further.

punky 10-03-2008 16:09

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
I've been looking for the leaflet, but can't find a copy, even on the BNP and anti-BNP sites.

Vlad_Dracul 10-03-2008 16:14

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
I can't find a copy either but nevertheless, it is clear that there is a link between families with links to Pakistan and the regions and the importation of Heroin. There is no shortage of news coverage of "Asians" being caught or involved in trafficking drugs.

If the use of the photo serves to send a powerful message both to youngsters and criminals alike then let it be used.

I wonder how young Ms Whitear came to be involved in drugs anyway?

I suspect that all that is happening here is that the REAL message is being lost in a storm of BNP bashing,whipped up by mischievous elemements in the media.

Hugh 10-03-2008 16:23

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504055)
I can't find a copy either but nevertheless, it is clear that there is a link between families with links to Pakistan and the regions and the importation of Heroin. There is no shortage of news coverage of "Asians" being caught or involved in trafficking drugs.

If the use of the photo serves to send a powerful message both to youngsters and criminals alike then let it be used.

I wonder how young Ms Whitear came to be involved in drugs anyway?

I suspect that all that is happening here is that the REAL message is being lost in a storm of BNP bashing,whipped up by mischievous elemements in the media.

Or Italians or Americans (Mafia) or Colombians or Burmese, but I don't see anyone producing a leaflet linking them to this abuse.:dozey:

You state "If the use of the photo serves to send a powerful message both to youngsters and criminals alike then let it be used"; nice of you to make that decision on behalf of the family. :erm:

Nice try at muddying the waters, but the real story is that a Political Party have used an image of someone's child (without even discussing it with them) to support their viewpoint.

btw, what are "Asians"? Are they different from Asians?

Saaf_laandon_mo 10-03-2008 16:23

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504055)
I can't find a copy either but nevertheless, it is clear that there is a link between families with links to Pakistan and the regions and the importation of Heroin. There is no shortage of news coverage of "Asians" being caught or involved in trafficking drugs.

Linking Asians being caught in Drug smuggling to Muslim Communities to me implies that the muslim community in a region are facilitating/helping/aiding/responsible for drug smuggling. I don't think thats a fair assertation. But it doesnt suprise me on a racist BNP leaflet.

Vlad_Dracul 10-03-2008 17:12

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Well first of all we need to think about who we are talking about. People talk generally about Asians when what they really mean are people who have origins in countries such as Pakistan. In turn people of Pakistani origin can be mistaken for other groups such as Bangladeshi, Afghan etc etc.

Of course the true meaning of the word Asian with respect to people,would mean the people of the continent of Asia which a hugely greater group !

So then,in the UK,references to Asians could generally be read to mean Pakistani and not the wider group of Asian peoples since Pakistani Asians form the vast majority of the UK population sub group.

So then,what then is the link between Asian and Muslim? One might as well say British and Protestant !

There is no link. The media would have us believe that all "Asians" are also Muslims by default. Whilst i accept that there are probably a greater proportion of the faithfull within the Asian population than in the indigenious non Asian population, we cannot assume that Asian/Pakistani = Muslim.

I am not saying that Muslims are involved in Heroin Trafficking. What I am saying is that Asians are involved in Heroin Trafficking. Whether they are Muslim or not is of no consequence to me.

Now then-Heroin trafficking to the UK-Well as i say ,there is no shortage of criminal cases involving Asians (the narrower group) and the trafficking of Heroin.

Many Asian businesses are built on the backs of drug dealing and trafficking.

There have been Asian and Bangladeshi businesses in this country which are merely legitimate looking fronts for the importation of Heroin.

At street level the big fish do not sully their hands with the drug. They filter it down to underlings ,young disaffected British white and Asian youths.

True in other parts of the world, Heroin is trafficked by other races,Amaericans,Italians etc,but we are talking about the UK here.

The major source of UK Heroin is Afganistan ,a country which shares borders with Pakistan.

The Geographical,socio-economic,family,cultural and language links are all shared.

There is no doubt that there is a firm and proven connection between certain Asians in the UK, the Heroin trade and fronting legit businesses for criminal purposes.

Stuart 10-03-2008 17:16

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504055)
I can't find a copy either but nevertheless, it is clear that there is a link between families with links to Pakistan and the regions and the importation of Heroin. There is no shortage of news coverage of "Asians" being caught or involved in trafficking drugs.

If the use of the photo serves to send a powerful message both to youngsters and criminals alike then let it be used.

I wonder how young Ms Whitear came to be involved in drugs anyway?

I suspect that all that is happening here is that the REAL message is being lost in a storm of BNP bashing,whipped up by mischievous elemements in the media.

What is happening is that the BNP is using the image of the dead girl, without permission. That is (IMO) one of the nastiest things you can do to a grieving parent, and just shows that the BNP is happy to sink to new depths just to promote racism.

If the BNP had sought permission, got it, and maybe used the image to promote a drugs-free society, then it would not be offensive.

Vlad_Dracul 10-03-2008 17:17

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Do they need permission? Has anyone else published it without seeking permission?

Derek 10-03-2008 17:26

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504104)
Do they need permission? Has anyone else published it without seeking permission?

AFAIK it was released by the family in order that anyone could use it to show that Heroin doesn't really have any good news, happy ending stories attached to it.
It's still being used that way, albeit with a 'lets blame the foreigners' message attached by the BNP who are conveniently forgetting the large number of white dealers jailed over the last 15-20 years.

Oh and before anyone thinks of posting any 'modified' versions of the picture, don't

Stuart 10-03-2008 18:00

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504104)
Do they need permission? Has anyone else published it without seeking permission?

Just read the article... It seems that the main problem that the parents have is not so much the use of the photo (if it's in the public domain, they can't object), but the use of her name (and presumably their family name) on the front, and the description of herion users as "nasty, pathetic parasites". They believe that using her image and name in the way the BNP have implies they have given consent, and are backing the leaflet.

Quote:

Her mother Pauline Holcroft said: "Our biggest concern is that because they have printed Rachel's name on the front of the leaflet it looks to all intents and purposes as if we are backing it, as if we had given our consent.

"That is far from the truth."


Mrs Holcroft added: "They refer to a heroin user as a nasty, pathetic parasite.

"I am sure that I'm not the only parents who has lost somebody through heroin who would argue that I didn't view Rachel in that way."
Fairly sure that calling all heroin users (and by definition their daughter) nasty pathetic parasites didn't help.

Hugh 10-03-2008 18:29

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504099)
....snippy snip
So then,what then is the link between Asian and Muslim? One might as well say British and Protestant !

Times "Figures for 2005 show that there are 4.2 million Catholics in England and Wales, under one fifth the 25 million baptised Anglicans and double the number of Muslims."
You never knowingly let facts get in the way of a good polemic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504099)
....Many Asian businesses are built on the backs of drug dealing and trafficking.

Evidence, please, before we assume your real name is Nick Griffin.
btw, the Oxford definition of "many" is "a great number" and "the majority of people"; I would expect your evidence (if you have it) to fulfill that definition, since you have besmirched a great number of businesses.

Damien 10-03-2008 18:38

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Asians have got no more of a connection to drugs than any other nationality has. Drug dealing itself is often rampant in poorer communitys and thus a connection is often made to black people/asians/immigrants who tend to make a larger section of these communitys.

It's a poverty issue, not a race issue. Bring race into serves no one

Vlad is right in that Afganistan is one of the region in which it comes from. Of course, that does not mean that they import it/refine it etc etc.

---------- Post added at 17:38 ---------- Previous post was at 17:35 ----------

Quote:

Fairly sure that calling all heroin users (and by definition their daughter) nasty pathetic parasites didn't help.
Well thats the level of dimwitted politics the BNP represent.

TheNorm 10-03-2008 18:46

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34504172)
...It's a poverty issue, not a race issue. Bring race into serves no one....

Seeing a 21 year old make posts like this gives me real hope for the future of this country.

Derek 10-03-2008 19:30

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34504172)
Well thats the level of dimwitted politics the BNP represent.

Well it's probably closer to the truth than any other political party is willing to admit. Lets face it Heroin addiction is a lifestyle choice, I doubt every user in the UK were held down and force injected to get them started.

It's pretty well accepted that heroin leads people downwards at high speed. There aren't that many "I did skag and now I own several aston martins" stories whereas there are plenty "I was a bright individual with good prospects, now I steal anything that isn't nailed down and wouldn't think twice about mugging a granny to get a couple of quid" stories.

papa smurf 10-03-2008 19:32

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
1 Attachment(s)
here's a poverty stricken farmer trying to scratch out a living

MovedGoalPosts 10-03-2008 19:44

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504099)
Well first of all we need to think about who we are talking about. People talk generally about Asians when what they really mean are people who have origins in countries such as Pakistan. In turn people of Pakistani origin can be mistaken for other groups such as Bangladeshi, Afghan etc etc.

Of course the true meaning of the word Asian with respect to people,would mean the people of the continent of Asia which a hugely greater group !

So then,in the UK,references to Asians could generally be read to mean Pakistani and not the wider group of Asian peoples since Pakistani Asians form the vast majority of the UK population sub group.

So then,what then is the link between Asian and Muslim? One might as well say British and Protestant !

There is no link. The media would have us believe that all "Asians" are also Muslims by default. Whilst i accept that there are probably a greater proportion of the faithfull within the Asian population than in the indigenious non Asian population, we cannot assume that Asian/Pakistani = Muslim.

I am not saying that Muslims are involved in Heroin Trafficking. What I am saying is that Asians are involved in Heroin Trafficking. Whether they are Muslim or not is of no consequence to me.

Now then-Heroin trafficking to the UK-Well as i say ,there is no shortage of criminal cases involving Asians (the narrower group) and the trafficking of Heroin.

Fair enough, you've done well and argued that only some of this sector of population are involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504099)
Many Asian businesses are built on the backs of drug dealing and trafficking.

There have been Asian and Bangladeshi businesses in this country which are merely legitimate looking fronts for the importation of Heroin.

Oh dear now it seems like we should be suspicious about a large number rather than only some.

Can we try to avoid over generalised statements please?

Tezcatlipoca 10-03-2008 20:44

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazymaniac (Post 34504046)
That's a strange position to die in...


IIRC, there were questions over whether the overdose was accidental or not, & whether she was alone when she died.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/6990031.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/6993015.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/7009185.stm

Vlad_Dracul 11-03-2008 17:39

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34504164)
Times "Figures for 2005 show that there are 4.2 million Catholics in England and Wales, under one fifth the 25 million baptised Anglicans and double the number of Muslims."
You never knowingly let facts get in the way of a good polemic.


Evidence, please, before we assume your real name is Nick Griffin.
btw, the Oxford definition of "many" is "a great number" and "the majority of people"; I would expect your evidence (if you have it) to fulfill that definition, since you have besmirched a great number of businesses.

I'm not quite sure what the Times article ads to the debate. There is a world of difference between those who identify with a particular religious denomination,those baptised or formalised into it and those who actually practice or attend their temple regularly.

Can you offer any explanation as to why there is a preponderance of "Asian" people involved in the trades of what might loosley described as restaurants,fast food and Wooly pully operations?

How can i be ,for example, that we have a Curry Mile in Manchester so many restaurants,all open for the greater part 24/7,and yet they are all seemingly thriving businesses?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....roin_plot_gang

There are plenty of similar cases..

O course i realise that it would be ridiculous to suggest that every curry house,knitwear factory and taxi diver were a front for drug dealing but there is evidence and have evidence of my own eyes.

Pakistanis must particularly like to maintain close family ties for on many a day, Manchester airport could be mistaken for somewhere further afield.

---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 34504277)
IIRC, there were questions over whether the overdose was accidental or not, & whether she was alone when she died.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/6990031.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/6993015.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/7009185.stm

To the uninitiated it may seem a strange position but it isnt that unusual. Heroin users will often make themselves comfortable either sitting up ,cross legged and then smoke or inject. They then start "Goofing"as it is known
http://www.dublinaidsalliance.com/Wo...rug%20Info.doc

and in that relaxed state,it would not be unsual for the girl to slump forward and gently drift into oblivion,under the influence of the opiate overdose. The purple colour i due to settlement of blood in the tissues due to gravity/no circulation (heart stopped)

Saaf_laandon_mo 11-03-2008 17:42

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504804)
I'm not quite sure what the Times article ads to the debate. There is a world of difference between those who identify with a particular religious denomination,those baptised or formalised into it and those who actually practice or attend their temple regularly.

Can you offer any explanation as to why there is a preponderance of "Asian" people involved in the trades of what might loosley described as restaurants,fast food and Wooly pully operations?

How can i be ,for example, that we have a Curry Mile in Manchester so many restaurants,all open for the greater part 24/7,and yet they are all seemingly thriving businesses?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....roin_plot_gang

There are plenty of similar cases..

O course i realise that it would be ridiculous to suggest that every curry house,knitwear factory and taxi diver were a front for drug dealing but there is evidence and have evidence of my own eyes.

Pakistanis must particularly like to maintain close family ties for on many a day, Manchester airport could be mistaken for somewhere further afield.

You have given a link to a group of smugglers who ran a clothing company as a front, and saying that you have evidence of many examples. And I think you're also implying that the majority of pakistanis traveling between Pakistan and Manchester are drug runners.

Oh and then you're suggesting that all restaurants are drug running fronts because there are so many of them and you cant understand why they are thriving. Could they be thriving because there is an abundance of people wishing to eat Indian meals. You do realise that many restaurants close down too dont you. Are you suggesting those are failed smugglers, or 'honest' business men?

Excuse me for saying, but I think you're post is one of the biggest load of baloney I have read on this forum. You have no basis for making the claims you do, and quite frankly its an insult to hard working asian entrepeneurs in the UK.

MovedGoalPosts 11-03-2008 17:48

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504804)
I'm not quite sure what the Times article ads to the debate. There is a world of difference between those who identify with a particular religious denomination,those baptised or formalised into it and those who actually practice or attend their temple regularly.

Can you offer any explanation as to why there is a preponderance of "Asian" people involved in the trades of what might loosley described as restaurants,fast food and Wooly pully operations?

How can i be ,for example, that we have a Curry Mile in Manchester so many restaurants,all open for the greater part 24/7,and yet they are all seemingly thriving businesses?

Maybe why there are so many businesses in food and such like is the relative ease that they can be set up for low cost yet there is strong demand for such services allowing an opportunity for healthy profit.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34504804)
Pakistanis must particularly like to maintain close family ties for on many a day, Manchester airport could be mistaken for somewhere further afield.

I have a feeling here that your true colours are showing :(

Vlad_Dracul 12-03-2008 20:26

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
I am merely presenting that which can clearly be observed for all who can see,for further examination ,debate and dis-section.

Damien 14-03-2008 02:35

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Even if the majority of those in the UK caught up in the dealing of drugs are Asians, It serves little point? Why on earth debate that fact rather than the drugs, drug market, and social deprivation in which drug culture prospers?

Vlad_Dracul 14-03-2008 09:41

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
So what do we need to fix first then? Do we need to take out the front line importers and distributors of hard drugs in the UK or do we need to create a social panacea in which everyone had such brilliant and fulfilling lives that they would never even consider taking drugs,thereby leaving dealers without a market?

Damien 14-03-2008 12:42

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad_Dracul (Post 34506699)
So what do we need to fix first then? Do we need to take out the front line importers and distributors of hard drugs in the UK or do we need to create a social panacea in which everyone had such brilliant and fulfilling lives that they would never even consider taking drugs,thereby leaving dealers without a market?

You properly need to tackle both, you need to remove the criminals distributing this stuff but at the same time that is going to be much more difficult as long as a market exists.

Either way the nationality of the those in the drug rings is not important, I doubt the hardcore ones work with 'friends back home', the big importers properly stay far away from the actual distribution in the communities.

The BNP's approach here is typical of them, blame it on easy answers and muslims. :rolleyes:

Escapee 19-03-2008 16:45

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34504218)
Well it's probably closer to the truth than any other political party is willing to admit. Lets face it Heroin addiction is a lifestyle choice, I doubt every user in the UK were held down and force injected to get them started.

It's pretty well accepted that heroin leads people downwards abyt high speed. There aren't that many "I did skag and now I own several aston martins" stories whereas there are plenty "I was a bright individual with good prospects, now I steal anything that isn't nailed down and wouldn't think twice about mugging a granny to get a couple of quid" stories.

Steady on there, you are bringing sense to the discussion.

Whilst it is a sad story for the family affected as you say people who get mixed up in drugs did have the choice. The shame here is the real issues are being lost in the politics, the vast quantities of heroin that arrives here is grown in parts of Asia.

It would be nice to know how much Is smuggled in by UK residents compared with the amount brought in by foreign nationals. We have a couple of known businesses around here (kebab shops) that are known for supplying drugs, there has even been a bit of a mini war when he new kebab shop started selling drugs on the other guys patch.

One of these businesses is Turkish owned and I believe the other is Iraqi owned.

Damien 19-03-2008 18:15

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34510078)
Steady on there, you are bringing sense to the discussion.

Whilst it is a sad story for the family affected as you say people who get mixed up in drugs did have the choice. The shame here is the real issues are being lost in the politics, the vast quantities of heroin that arrives here is grown in parts of Asia.

It would be nice to know how much Is smuggled in by UK residents compared with the amount brought in by foreign nationals. We have a couple of known businesses around here (kebab shops) that are known for supplying drugs, there has even been a bit of a mini war when he new kebab shop started selling drugs on the other guys patch.

One of these businesses is Turkish owned and I believe the other is Iraqi owned.

No one is saying they were right, or that they did not bring the addiction on themselves. However, It's still tragic and I doubt they wanted to deserved to go down the path they go down, like the woman mentioned here.

As for the smuggling, family ties are unlikely to be the sole method of the majority of the drug smuggling that goes on. Even so, I am not sure what the nationality/race of those doing the smuggling has to do with it. In terms of fighting it as least.

Escapee 19-03-2008 20:04

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34510146)
No one is saying they were right, or that they did not bring the addiction on themselves. However, It's still tragic and I doubt they wanted to deserved to go down the path they go down, like the woman mentioned here.

As for the smuggling, family ties are unlikely to be the sole method of the majority of the drug smuggling that goes on. Even so, I am not sure what the nationality/race of those doing the smuggling has to do with it. In terms of fighting it as least.

I disagree with your last comment, I believe the smuggling of drugs from another country into this country will most likely involve people here with close ties to the country of drug origin.

Its the same as people smuggling, around here we have had raids on kebab houses and convenience stores. (There has been similar reports from other areas of wales) These were obviously inteligence led but both cases resulted in a number of smuggled illegal immigrants arrested. I believe that drug smuggling in many cases operates in a similar manner, by having connections in both countries.

However suggesting that anyone of a race other than a British White person could possibly be involved is of course racist.:rolleyes:

The BNP is a racist party, but in common with all the other parties they have one or two good policies that have been discussed here many times.

Hugh 19-03-2008 20:51

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34510218)
I disagree with your last comment, I believe the smuggling of drugs from another country into this country will most likely involve people here with close ties to the country of drug origin.

Its the same as people smuggling, around here we have had raids on kebab houses and convenience stores. (There has been similar reports from other areas of wales) These were obviously inteligence led but both cases resulted in a number of smuggled illegal immigrants arrested. I believe that drug smuggling in many cases operates in a similar manner, by having connections in both countries.

However suggesting that anyone of a race other than a British White person could possibly be involved is of course racist.:rolleyes:
erm, where has that been suggested or stated in this thread? I love it when the "reverse racism" card is played, to allow people to be the injured party. :dozey: The "Political Correctness" and the "Human Rights" cards should be out soon, then. ;)

The BNP is a racist party, but in common with all the other parties they have one or two good policies that have been discussed here many times.
As did a number of other far-right parties in the past........ :shocked:

Anyhoo, we seemed to have wandered from the OP about a political party using the circumstances, image, and tragedy suffered by a family without asking their permission, into a discussion about how evil Asians are, and what misery they are bringing on this country - how did that happen? :dozey:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/28.jpg

papa smurf 19-03-2008 20:54

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34510238)
Anyhoo, we seemed to have wandered from the OP about a political party using the circumstances, image, and tragedy suffered by a family without asking their permission, into a discussion about how evil Asians are, and what misery they are bringing on this country - how did that happen? :dozey:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/28.jpg

they used to say all roads lead to rome but now it seems they lead to asia:D

Escapee 20-03-2008 17:02

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34510238)
Anyhoo, we seemed to have wandered from the OP about a political party using the circumstances, image, and tragedy suffered by a family without asking their permission, into a discussion about how evil Asians are, and what misery they are bringing on this country - how did that happen? :dozey:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/28.jpg

Well, they are your words not mine.

It is of course common sense to suggest that someone with ties in a country will have a head start. If I was going to set up a drug smuggling operation, the first port of call would be to find a local dodgy contact with an in-depth knowledge of a country where the drugs are easily available.

Using someone with family in that country is onbviously an advantage for cover. As there doesn't appear to be many people emigrating to these known drug countries from the UK, it would be unlikely to work the other way around.

If we were talking about European drug smuggling I would think it less likely to be family related and possibly tourist related, but lets be fair not many UK residents go on package trips to pop over to Afghnistan or Pakistan for a holiday, or do they.

Hugh 20-03-2008 17:18

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34504037)
BBC

"Parents of a heroin addict are to take legal action against the British National Party (BNP) for using a picture of their dead daughter.

Rachel Whitear, 21, was found dead at her flat in Exmouth, Devon, in May 2000, holding a capped syringe.

The photograph, released by her Herefordshire parents to educate people on drugs, was used by Lancashire BNP members on a leaflet.

The BNP's deputy leader said they would not apologise.

The leaflets, which were circulated in Preston, linked heroin use to Muslim communities"

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34510238)
Anyhoo, we seemed to have wandered from the OP about a political party using the circumstances, image, and tragedy suffered by a family without asking their permission, into a discussion about how evil Asians are, and what misery they are bringing on this country - how did that happen? :dozey:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/28.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34510684)
Well, they are your words not mine.

It is of course common sense to suggest that someone with ties in a country will have a head start. If I was going to set up a drug smuggling operation, the first port of call would be to find a local dodgy contact with an in-depth knowledge of a country where the drugs are easily available.

Using someone with family in that country is onbviously an advantage for cover. As there doesn't appear to be many people emigrating to these known drug countries from the UK, it would be unlikely to work the other way around.

If we were talking about European drug smuggling I would think it less likely to be family related and possibly tourist related, but lets be fair not many UK residents go on package trips to pop over to Afghnistan or Pakistan for a holiday, or do they.

:erm:
You seemed to have missed my point (once again) - please see the OP (reproduced above).

The family tragedy involved was that of a British family, and the point was that their tragedy was being milked by a political party without permission or discussion - my point (above) was that once more a thread was transformed into "lets bash other races/ethnicities, and make them the scapegoats for all bad things that are happening" thread, and my words were intended to reflect the direction the thread had taken, not my beliefs (but hey, let's not let things like facts stop the fomenting of discord, huh?).

I love the statement "it is of course common sense" - it is up there with "I am sure you will agree" and "we all think" - people sometimes forget their definition of "common sense" is often neither common or sense (imho).

Hom3r 20-03-2008 18:24

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Sorry but at the end of the day, even if the picture was in the "Public Domain" good taste and decency would dictate that you ask the next of kin to use the picture.

Sadly BNP wouldn't know what these are even if thet where the side of the lorry in flashing lights about to run them over.

Xaccers 20-03-2008 22:12

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 34510738)
Sorry but at the end of the day, even if the picture was in the "Public Domain" good taste and decency would dictate that you ask the next of kin to use the picture.

Sadly BNP wouldn't know what these are even if thet where the side of the lorry in flashing lights about to run them over.

Similar to a senior police officer in Wales (think it was in Wales) who used, without seeking consent, photos of someone who'd died in a car accident (sorry, brain is addled).

Simple common sense dictates that if you're going to use the details of someone who's died, you seek the consent of their immediate family.

Jonnymeg 23-03-2008 12:18

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34504172)
Well thats the level of dimwitted politics the BNP represent.

But there is no getting away from the fact that that is what users become. They may well have been upstanding citizens prior to using but once hooked the most do become such parasites.

Escapee 23-03-2008 13:44

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34510696)
:erm:
You seemed to have missed my point (once again) - please see the OP (reproduced above).

The family tragedy involved was that of a British family, and the point was that their tragedy was being milked by a political party without permission or discussion - my point (above) was that once more a thread was transformed into "lets bash other races/ethnicities, and make them the scapegoats for all bad things that are happening" thread, and my words were intended to reflect the direction the thread had taken, not my beliefs (but hey, let's not let things like facts stop the fomenting of discord, huh?).

I love the statement "it is of course common sense" - it is up there with "I am sure you will agree" and "we all think" - people sometimes forget their definition of "common sense" is often neither common or sense (imho).

It is of course common sense that the countries cultivating these drugs are the countries the drugs coming from, this surely means these countries are without doubt the source of the problem.

Stop the huge drug cultivation in these countries would go some way to preventing future ruined lives and deaths through drug addiction. The large scale cultivation in certain countries has made drug use a pastime cheaper than alcohol.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...22624E0A3E.htm

14% of Afghans involved.

TheNorm 23-03-2008 14:01

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34512250)
... this surely means these countries are without doubt the source of the problem.....

No, the source of the problem is demand. Not supply.

If all poppy fields in Afghanistan were destroyed tonight, do you really think the drug problem in Britain would come to an end?

Escapee 23-03-2008 15:18

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34512259)
No, the source of the problem is demand. Not supply.

If all poppy fields in Afghanistan were destroyed tonight, do you really think the drug problem in Britain would come to an end?

No, the drug problem would not come to an end. The problem would not be as widespread though if these countries had been stopped from cultivating it in the beggining.

Hard drugs have never been so cheap, this is due to supply and demand. The vast amount of drugs produced by these countries have made the price affordable.

I was never offered hard drugs when I was younger, and I believe this was due to cost, in the past 12 months I have been offered hard drugs 'To try' on more than one occassion. I believe this is due to the fact that they are cheap enough to offer around to others like people do with fags.

The 14% if true means there are probably about 4.5 million people in Afghanistan alone involved in drug cultivation and trafficking, I dont know if they are counting the Pakistanis that are coming over the border for the poppy fields now the majority of Taliban have been killed.

If you speak to soldiers coming back from a tour in Afghanistan my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs.

Of course this may be fact but it is far easier to brush it aside as a racist comment.

TheNorm 23-03-2008 16:54

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34512292)
...Hard drugs have never been so cheap, this is due to supply and demand. ....

... and a Labour government who doesn't have a clue?

Quote:

Street prices for class A drugs have halved since Labour came to power, dropping almost every year since 1997, government figures confirm.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ur-793501.html

Hugh 23-03-2008 17:04

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34512292)
No, the drug problem would not come to an end. The problem would not be as widespread though if these countries had been stopped from cultivating it in the beggining.

Hard drugs have never been so cheap, this is due to supply and demand. The vast amount of drugs produced by these countries have made the price affordable.

I was never offered hard drugs when I was younger, and I believe this was due to cost, in the past 12 months I have been offered hard drugs 'To try' on more than one occassion. I believe this is due to the fact that they are cheap enough to offer around to others like people do with fags.

The 14% if true means there are probably about 4.5 million people in Afghanistan alone involved in drug cultivation and trafficking, I dont know if they are counting the Pakistanis that are coming over the border for the poppy fields now the majority of Taliban have been killed.

If you speak to soldiers coming back from a tour in Afghanistan my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs.

Of course this may be fact but it is far easier to brush it aside as a racist comment.

I don't brush it aside as a racist comment (I see you are using the old pre-emptive strike of "reverse racism" card again - one of your favourites, isn't it? ;) ) - very pleased to see the qualification of may in your post - it also may not be fact, but it is unlikely, given your post history, that you would promote that premise.

btw, how could the soldiers tell the difference between the Pakistanis and the Afghanis? I was out with my nephew and his mates last week (who had recently been in Afghanistan with the RHF) and they didn't mention Pakistanis at all, when asked who they were up against; they just classed them all as Terry Taliban.

Escapee 23-03-2008 19:12

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512347)
I don't brush it aside as a racist comment (I see you are using the old pre-emptive strike of "reverse racism" card again - one of your favourites, isn't it? ;) ) - very pleased to see the qualification of may in your post - it also may not be fact, but it is unlikely, given your post history, that you would promote that premise.

btw, how could the soldiers tell the difference between the Pakistanis and the Afghanis? I was out with my nephew and his mates last week (who had recently been in Afghanistan with the RHF) and they didn't mention Pakistanis at all, when asked who they were up against; they just classed them all as Terry Taliban.

I hear that the number we have killed are probably ten times more than the original Taliban numbers. The majority we are now fighting come over the border from Pakistan, these are either Afghans who have been hiding in Pakistan or of Pakistan origin. I understand that tribes have split throughout the ages and some live in Pakistan and some in Afghanistan, so they are closely connected.

I am told their are regular battles that sometimes result in tens or hundreds coming across the border. These are usually drug high and brainwashed with little chance of inflicting any harm, and we are having to use large calibre weapons to stop them.

Wherever they originate from is not important but they come across the border from the Pakistani and thir government and forces are doing little more than offering a token gesture to tackle these people in their country.

Hugh 23-03-2008 19:21

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34512292)
...snippy snip...

If you speak to soldiers coming back from a tour in Afghanistan my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs.

Of course this may be fact but it is far easier to brush it aside as a racist comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34512454)
I hear that the number we have killed are probably ten times more than the original Taliban numbers. The majority we are now fighting come over the border from Pakistan, these are either Afghans who have been hiding in Pakistan or of Pakistan origin. I understand that tribes have split throughout the ages and some live in Pakistan and some in Afghanistan, so they are closely connected.

I am told their are regular battles that sometimes result in tens or hundreds coming across the border. These are usually drug high and brainwashed with little chance of inflicting any harm, and we are having to use large calibre weapons to stop them.

Wherever they originate from is not important but they come across the border from the Pakistani and thir government and forces are doing little more than offering a token gesture to tackle these people in their country.

You appear to be contradicting yourself about the origin of the fighters. ;)

If you look at this CNN link, you will find that 3.5 million Afghani refugees moved to Iran and Pakistan.

btw, what drug are these "fighters" on? If it's hash or opiates, I am surprised they can walk, never mind fight.

Damien 23-03-2008 19:32

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Well, Putting aside the stats on who is involved with the smuggling of drugs. What difference does it make who is doing it? Even if it is mostly Asians, and it could well be, what difference does it make?

It's simply a issue of geography and not that this race is more disposed to commiting crime. So why is it important what race the smugglers are?

TheNorm 23-03-2008 19:38

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34512473)
.... So why is it important what race the smugglers are?

These are the types of questions the BNP would rather you didn't ask.

Escapee 23-03-2008 19:56

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512464)
You appear to be contradicting yourself about the origin of the fighters. ;)

If you look at this CNN link, you will find that 3.5 million Afghani refugees moved to Iran and Pakistan.

btw, what drug are these "fighters" on? If it's hash or opiates, I am surprised they can walk, never mind fight.

'my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs.'

'Wherever they originate from is not important' but they come across the border from the Pakistani

I think you accidently missed off the highlighted part of my quote.

We can play the cableforum word twisting game all night, but the fact of the matter is.

1) 93% of opium comes from Afghanistan
2) 14% of the Afghanistan population are involved
3) Men are coming over the border from Pakistan to fight our troops
4) The Pakistan Government are doing too little
5) Our troops have wiped out all but a small number of the original Taliban

Hugh 23-03-2008 19:58

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
And you seem to be trying to re-write history, by ignoring what you stated in post #39

"If you speak to soldiers coming back from a tour in Afghanistan my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs."

btw, I will ask the question again - what drugs are these fighters on, as hash or opiates make it difficult to walk, never mind fight.......

Jonnymeg 23-03-2008 20:37

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512485)
And you seem to be trying to re-write history, by ignoring what you stated in post #39

"If you speak to soldiers coming back from a tour in Afghanistan my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs."

btw, I will ask the question again - what drugs are these fighters on, as hash or opiates make it difficult to walk, never mind fight.......

I think Escapee had already pointed out that whilst they may have been there to fight the was little chance of them causing harm due to the intoxication.

My point on this is simple. When you release a photo you are basically saying to the world 'do as you wish with it'. The family should have put conditions on it's reproduction from the outset and as they didn't then i don't think they have an case and nor should they.

Hugh 23-03-2008 20:43

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonnymeg (Post 34512502)
I think Escapee had already pointed out that whilst they may have been there to fight the was little chance of them causing harm due to the intoxication.
And again the point is (apparently) misinterpreted - it was stated by Escapee they were Pakistanis (drug befuddled or not) - it then became "where they originate from isn't important"; if it wasn't important, why stress they were Pakistani?

My point on this is simple. When you release a photo you are basically saying to the world 'do as you wish with it'. The family should have put conditions on it's reproduction from the outset and as they didn't then i don't think they have an case and nor should they.

But it isn't just about the photo - as the family said (in the OP link)

"Ms Whitear's parents said they would not have given their consent for the image to be used by any political party and were especially concerned about the claims made in the leaflet.
Her stepfather, Mick Holcroft, told the BBC they were exploring the legal steps they can take through the courts.
Her mother Pauline Holcroft said: "Our biggest concern is that because they have printed Rachel's name on the front of the leaflet it looks to all intents and purposes as if we are backing it, as if we had given our consent. "That is far from the truth." "

Escapee 23-03-2008 20:51

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512485)
And you seem to be trying to re-write history, by ignoring what you stated in post #39

"If you speak to soldiers coming back from a tour in Afghanistan my experience is that they say that now they are fighting Pakistanis and many are coming over the border for the drugs."

btw, I will ask the question again - what drugs are these fighters on, as hash or opiates make it difficult to walk, never mind fight.......

I guess you have never taken on someone who is on drugs, I have experience of tackling people on drugs. I do not know in each incident what the individual was on but I know I have been up against someone on Speed and I have twice tackled Heroin users.

Heroin users are almost impossible to stop and appear to feel no pain, as anyone here reading who knew me from ntl days would tell you about the bite mark I had for 18 months from an unprovoked attack rom a Heroin user. I hit this person hard every time they got back up, but they kept coming forward.

My grandfather had a community award for the night we detained a Heroin user who was beating his girlfriend senseless in our driveway. When the police arrived I was happy to leave them to it, but although on Heroin two coppers had problems holding him on the floor to cuff him. I didn't know until later he was a Heroin addict and 12 months later he did us all a big favour.

Our troops are having problems because small calibre weapons are not stopping them efficiently, due to their drugged up brainwashed state they are just running at our troops but with little chance of inflicting any damage.

Jonnymeg 23-03-2008 20:58

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512506)
But it isn't just about the photo - as the family said (in the OP link)

"Ms Whitear's parents said they would not have given their consent for the image to be used by any political party and were especially concerned about the claims made in the leaflet.
Her stepfather, Mick Holcroft, told the BBC they were exploring the legal steps they can take through the courts.
Her mother Pauline Holcroft said: "Our biggest concern is that because they have printed Rachel's name on the front of the leaflet it looks to all intents and purposes as if we are backing it, as if we had given our consent. "That is far from the truth." "

Well it still makes no difference as the parents don't have to give consent. If they don't like then i am afraid it is tough, they shouldn't have released the image. Using the name is legal too isn't it?
On this occasion i have to side with the BNP in the photo usage when they say they did nothing 'legally' wrong.
I guess the parents are a little upset by them calling their 'lovely' daughter a parasite but unfortunately most heroin addicts just so.

Escapee 23-03-2008 21:38

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Just a bit to back up my claim earlier.

Obviously my memory is not as good as I thought, the incident when I had a run in with this character was certainly around early 2001 which would of put it about 3 years prior to his death reported here. (My GF never recovered the full amount from the damages caused when he jumped on the roof of her car and then on the roof of my company car that was the reason I layed into him) What a lovely person he was!

http://archive.southwalesargus.co.uk.../13/61801.html

I remember phoning the newspaper at the time about the incident because I was disgusted that they were indicating that he was not a regular Heroin user. They would not print anything negative because they had to respect the family, although this person was high on heroin when arrested for the incident in 2001.

It's always the same story though, my son/daughter was good blah blah blah.

Hugh 23-03-2008 21:50

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonnymeg (Post 34512519)
Well it still makes no difference as the parents don't have to give consent. If they don't like then i am afraid it is tough, they shouldn't have released the image. Using the name is legal too isn't it?
On this occasion i have to side with the BNP in the photo usage when they say they did nothing 'legally' wrong.
I guess the parents are a little upset by them calling their 'lovely' daughter a parasite but unfortunately most heroin addicts just so.

You are a nice sympathetic soul, aren't you?

So the next time the BNP use your quote above (out of context, but, what the hey - in your own words, if you don't like it, tough ;)) in one of their leaflets, you won't have a problem?

btw, Escapee, I think you might be confusing speed/crank users with heroin users - heroin users are usually too out of it after injecting to do much.

Escapee 23-03-2008 22:10

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512548)
You are a nice sympathetic soul, aren't you?

So the next time the BNP use your quote above (out of context, but, what the hey - in your own words, if you don't like it, tough ;)) in one of their leaflets, you won't have a problem?

btw, Escapee, I think you might be confusing speed/crank users with heroin users - heroin users are usually too out of it after injecting to do much.

The guy in the article I linked was a known Heroin user. (although the newspaper article didn't reflect that and his father tried to give the impression it was his first fix)

The attack when I received the bite was also from a Heroin user, I am led to believe they have a rush straight after injecting but as you say it than makes them lethargic and useless after a while.

The speed user I got involved with was small but it made him as strong as an ox, I posted about that incident last year when it took 3 of us to restrain him. He had attacked the pub landlady for no reason, but we had to be careful out in the street how we dealt with him because of the cctv cameras and the sudden appearance of about a dozen or so drug dealers and users.

The police were not that interested until he smacked one of the coppers in the face. I'm sure he would of walked away if he hd not done that.

c_r 23-03-2008 22:14

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34512557)
The guy in the article I linked was a known Heroin user. (although the newspaper article didn't reflect that and his father tried to give the impression it was his first fix)

The attack when I received the bite was also from a Heroin user, I am led to believe they have a rush straight after injecting but as you say it than makes them lethargic and useless after a while.

The speed user I got involved with was small but it made him as strong as an ox, I posted about that incident last year when it took 3 of us to restrain him. He had attacked the pub landlady for no reason, but we had to be careful out in the street how we dealt with him because of the cctv cameras and the sudden appearance of about a dozen or so drug dealers and users.

The police were not that interested until he smacked one of the coppers in the face. I'm sure he would of walked away if he hd not done that.

Blimey, where do you live? You seem to get involved in an awful lot of incidents!

Escapee 24-03-2008 12:08

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by c_r (Post 34512559)
Blimey, where do you live? You seem to get involved in an awful lot of incidents!

I dont think its much different in any area these days, as drug users are now very widespread.

Saying that, I have had problems with drug users and my nighbours do not. But then again I have not been the type to hear someone in touble being beaten badly and just turn up the TV to ignore it. I have neighbours like that, the curtains twitch and they come out after the event to ask what happened claiming they didn't hear a thing.

A hostel for homeless teenagers in my street has increased the number of dealers hanging around selling dugs and large properties converted into flats housing drug users are not helping matters. The TA centre for army cadets has now closed because it is unsafe for the cadets to operate from there, although the council are still patting themselves on the back for opening the hostel.

I think it doesn't matter what area you live in, any area can be a nice area and before you know it a change in circumstances by the council can change everything. Its best to make sure you live very close to your local councillor because they will not allow it on their doorstep.

A few months ago I did something that I have never done before in my life, a woman from down the road was on the floor late at night and a couple of teenagers appeared to of attacked her. I thought what would my neighbours who live opposite and are involved in charity and drug rehab do in this situation, I did exactly what they would do. I put on my la la la I'm not listening headphones, turned my head the other way and walked on.

Would any of my neighbours return the favour of helping me if I was being attacked? That is a very big NO, I have learned my lesson that you get very little thanks and the favour would not be returned.

Jonnymeg 24-03-2008 13:39

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34512548)
You are a nice sympathetic soul, aren't you?

So the next time the BNP use your quote above (out of context, but, what the hey - in your own words, if you don't like it, tough ;)) in one of their leaflets, you won't have a problem?
.

Sympathy has nothing to do with. As a parent myself i can understand their pain but unfortunately they did release the image and that it is that. They should have given serious thought before doing so or at least sought better advice than they received.
As far as i am aware they have not been quoted so your statement is a little off the mark.
To blindly release a photo and hope the world is as decent as you would like them to be is a little foolhardy....don't you think?

Hugh 24-03-2008 15:41

Re: Heroin photo used in BNP leaflet
 
No, I don't think that.

They released the photograph, and a 22 minute video, to warn people about the dangers of drug abuse, as quoted in a BBC article Link
"Over the next two years, Rachel's parents campaigned against drugs to try to save other lives.

In March 2002, a 22-minute video called Rachel's Story was shown to hundreds of teenage school pupils, and a photograph of her body was released by her mother Pauline Holcroft."

The fact that some sleaze-bags abused their gesture does not, imho, make them foolhardy - it just makes the political party involved ****-sucking rabble-rousing oxygen thieves (again, imho).

Unfortunately, the idiots who abused this family's trust will just have discouraged anyone else doing the same thing in the future (imho).


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