Right or wrong
 

Shopkeeper charged with murder for protecting his shop, full story HERE The chap who lost his life was a career criminal with several convictions for armed robbery, I think he got what was coming to him to be honest.

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"could face a murder charge" it states.

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Yeah but it's in the Mail, so you can't expect people to notice little details like facts ;)

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This will be another case of

Weak on crime, Tuff on the victims of crime. You can bet the Human Rights Brigade will be lining up to defend the robber and demand that the victim be sent to jail for life. You can read it now "How dare that man defend himself against that innocent robber"

The fact that he might be charged just shows that you have to think twice about defending yourself and the possibility that someone will want you in court over it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7253901.stm

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He should be given a medal for getting another ****-bag off the streets.

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So what if its the mail its no better or worse than any over tabloid.

Let me simplify it for you.

Man get attacked by robber.
Robber ends up dying.
Man gets reported to CPS just to see if there is a case to answer to.




Now call me stupid but he defended himself, the attacker got stuck by his own knife and died where is the justice in trying to see if there is a case to bring towards the man who got attacked. The only justice in this is that the victim survived and the attacker died, good ridance to crap.

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I can bet you now that

A. A certain poster in this thread will attack my post. he knows who he is.

B. The robber will be defended by those who do not agree with normal people being allowed to defend themselves when attacked by ******* robbers.

C. Someone will ask what about the robbers human rights ?

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I know its not right to take someone's life, but maybe fate intervened on this one. He wasn't a very nice guy by all accounts :erm: Live by the sword and all that.....

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How did the police find his body, it can't have been travelling fast enough for a ticket? :rolleyes:

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Yep the fact is he was attacked.
The fact is that during the attack the ROBBER died
The fact is that the CPS has been asked to look at charging the shopkeeper who defended himself with Murder.

I don't think it matter's one bit which paper its in or is it that because its in a paper you don't like, Then its not news worthy enough for you to bother with ?

---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

:LOL:

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True. Seeing as the robber also had the knife, so was obviously ready to attack the shopkeeper. I would have thought that even if the court didn't consider this at the start, any competent barrister would bring it up..

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Robber got what he deserved and good riddance to very bad rubbish and the shopkeeper should have gone straight to hospital got his wounds treated and then taken home. Case to answer too for the love of god the shopkeeper had wounds to his neck and cheast and the attacker was well known for armed robbery. This is such a statement of the UK at the minute and it makes me sick this guy was going about his business he didn't ask scumly to come in and rob him but by god we will make him suffer as he had the bare faced cheek to defend himself.

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He hasn't been charged though... just questioned & then released on bail pending further enquiries.

Right or wrong, someone did die after all, so they *do* have to look into it.


I would class myself as part of the "liberal do gooder tree hugging Guardian reading human rights brigade" if such a thing existed (I don't have a beard or sandals though), however I think that if the shopkeeper stabbed the guy while defending himself then he has done nothing wrong. As it was the robber's own knife, & the shopkeeper also had stab wounds, then it would seem to me very likely that it was self-defence & that perhaps the robber got stabbed during a struggle over the knife.

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Ah your a sensible one then Matt don't worry the less sensible will be along soon enough :).

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Unfortunately Matt It is a sad state of affairs when someone who is defending himself is even considered for a murder charge.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:53 ----------

Yep i will be able to read all the posts defending the robber when i get up in the morning. :LOL:

Re: Right or wrong
 

Let me simplify it for you.

The Mail seems to have an agenda. They appear to want people to think that the world is falling apart. They will, therefore, publish stories that reenforce this idea, and don't seem to publish any that don't.

Also, another point. It has been referred to the CPS. That is all we know. I see no evidence in that article that the Police or CPS are considering a Murder charge. The Mail is speculating about a Murder charge. In fact, it says later on that the shopkeeper was released on Police Bail. Does this happen if someone is charged with Murder? I am fairly certain it doesn't, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong..

Now: Time for me to correct myself.

From http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_a.html#22
My reading of that is that a court may grant bail on a murder charge, but the person they are releasing would have to have been seen by a Psychiatrist (or other mental health professional) and a Doctor. The article mentions neither of them.

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Erm...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...on-776414.html

Only accused of murder, but even so...

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LOL, that's not really a positive thing though. They're all awful...

(although I do think the Mail is one of the worst).


You may find this interesting...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-N...3634743&sr=8-1

(although the "quality" papers can be bad sometimes too... but still not to the level of the tabloid trash)

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Yeah, I found that after I posted, hence my revising my post above to include the laws on the CPS website.

Re: Right or wrong
 

LINK EDIT*** Beaten to it by Antisilence :o:



The mail wants us to think the world is falling apart?
Of course the world is falling apart or havnt you looked lately, its in a right crap state Stuart and its not looking to get any better soon.

---------- Post added at 23:15 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

I wonder when a book will be published to de-bunk the de-bunkers? ;)

Your right Matt its not positive and they are all awful.

Still the facts are (regardless who's reporting it) A man saved himself from being killed by an attacker that was out to rob him, the outcome was that the attacker died due to a single stab wound and the victim needed hospital treatment for wounds to his back, face & neck and now he faces the possibility of prison for self defence.

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Well, it's not really. OK, it's in a crap state, but, TBH, that hasn't really changed in all the 36 years I've been alive.

We've alway had violence, we've always had terrorist threats (well, living in London, I've experienced a few bombscares and actually worked in a building where one of the receptionists recieved a correctly coded IRA threat). BTW, thats based on what I have seen and experienced. Not just read in a paper.

Of course, that isn't the picture you get from any of the press. People pay to be frightened, or have something to moan about, and that's what they provide. I could go on, but this is wandering off topic.

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A man has been killed, surely it should be investigated properly following due process.
Or are you saying you'd prefer a system where if you said you were attacked it was taken at face value?

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Actually, I would agree. When the Police reach a crime scene, they have no idea what has happened. All they see before investigation is an injured bloke in a car and presumably a dead or dying bloke beside it.

A similar thing happened to me when my father died (I wasn't actually arrested though). I was told that because the death occurred outside a medical facility, the family were automatically placed under suspicion of causing the death. I was also told that this was just procedure.

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If you dont believe The Daily Mail, how about The Telegraph:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ncrime121.xml

or The Guardian:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/fe...ss&feed=uknews

.

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They still say could. Nothing definate.
And The Grauniad isn't even committing to saying any charges will be brought:
However, in fairness to the Mail, they don't say any Murder Charges have been bought either.

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If someone kills someone, then they face manslaughter or murder. You cant just go round killing people and getting away with it.

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You sure? What about the concept of Self Defence? After all, the guy used the handle of his knife to smash the shopkeepr's car window, then apparently threatened the shopkeeper. I'm fairly sure the court would agree that pretty much any action the shopkeeper took could be said to be in self defence. Ok, he may not got off scot free, but he could have a heavily reduced charge or sentence.

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Yeah, I wasnt arguing that. Like I said he then would face manslaughter? At the end of the day, he killed someone and we cant let something like that go un punished?

One thing I dont know, can you be let off for defending yourself, even if someone had died?

Anyway, as we dont know the facts, anything could have happened and the Police would have to investigate a murder anyway.

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Jesus some people, he'd worked a 13 hour shift in his shop only for some **** bag to try and take his takings for the day aided by a knife, he got what was coming to him IMO.

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:LOL:

I said one would come along to support the robber.

So what do you want to happen to the VICTIM.

Long jail sentence

Made to walk with a sign that Say's "HEY look i defended myself, I am the bad boy".

Get real. This man was attacked with a knife and rightly defended himself against someone who by having a knife and using it was attempting to murder the victim. The robber got in my opinion a taste of his own medicine.

But hey there is always those that will support the Criminal and not the victim. Are you a Human Rights Lawyer by any chance ?

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Would you prefer a system where the police just say "oh right, you were defending yourself? No need to investigate here then, be on your way" in such cases?

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No xaccers no one is saying anything like that but how about a system that keeps it's gob shut till a proper investigation has been done. How about a system that doesn't haul an obvious victim off to a police station straight away. End of the day this guy had been working allday was about to go home when a piece of **** wanted his earnings for nothing.

Shawty if you really think that people that kill even if it is in self defence should be punished well what can i say it's ludicrous because if we go by what you say we basically make a criminals charter and they will make use of it.

Someone comes at me with a knife i define reasonable force as anything it takes to save my life if that means killing my attacker fair enough. You attack someone with a knife you take your chances and always run the risk of dying thats how it is i believe there is going to be a government campaign highlighting how dangerous knives can be because they can injure or kill you if you carry them looks like they have their latest poster child for the campaign.

One stab wound killed the **** the VICTIM had multiple injuries on multiple parts of his body do the math as they say.

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lol it was so obvious! how do u know he didnt know his attacker?
all that people are saying is he hasnt been charged, i'll run that pass u again "he hasnt been charged" and the investigation is routine, the same would apply if the police had shot him.

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You mean like a proper investigation that has been done, and then handed over to the CPS for their appraisal to ensure that 1. a proper investigation has been done and 2. if any case needs to be answered, it is.

A man has been killed. That is a crime. As with many crimes*, there are defences, in this case, acting to defend oneself from harm. It cannot just be discharged by the police. It must follow due process and be passed to the CPS who will decide if a case should be passed to the courts.

Why are people having such difficulty understanding that just because something has been passed to the CPS it doesn't mean a court case will be required, nor an conviction likely.
Is it really that complicated?



*other examples which spring to mind include:
Selling someone a realistic imitation firearm (such as a cap gun or black water pistol)
Manufacturing a realistic imitation firearm (so no more building plastic models)
Modifying an imitation firearm so that it becomes realistic (spraying an imitation firearm, which must have it's principle colour as one of a list of bright colours or transparent, black to make it look real)
Importing a realistic imitation firearm (so check your kids' luggage!)

All of the above are now offences (yes, Argos, Game, HMV etc are criminal organisations), however there are specific defences, such as if the offence was committed for making a film (supplying RIFs for the next season of Ultimate Farce), or re-enactment displays, and also thankfully "acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purpose of leisure"

All the above offences could be investigated by the police and passed to the CPS to decide if there is sufficient evidence that a defence is available or not.

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So you think that no matter what the circumstances are, anyone who kills someone else for whatever reason should be punished?

IMO you should only be punished if you intentionally do something wrong. What was this shopkeeper supposed to do in his situation? Allow the robber to kill him, for fear of going to jail for defending himself?

I wonder what you would have done in the same circumstances?

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Funnily enough, in Milton Keynes, if you're a male victim of domestic violence and defend yourself you get a criminal record.
Apparently the police here haven't the brain power between them to work out that men can be victims of violent women...

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How about a system where the press (and not just the tabloids) don't automatically print what currently amounts to half a story?

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Yup, that sounds good to me, anonymity until found guilty.

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Absolutely. Let's face it, it's not that long ago that a trial was abandoned because the Mirror printed an article from (I believe) the father of the victim, that would have blatantly prejudiced the jury - I'm afraid I can't remember the exact details.

If the vast majority of newspapers in this country didn't constantly strive to find the most sensational angle to any story, we might actually let the police and courts get on with their jobs...

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I fully agree and support a system of non reporting until the facts can be told.

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Might even help those men accused of rape by women who are later found to be lying and the police release the names of the accused to the press.

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I never said he didnt get what was coming to him. But then again, we cant go around killing people because they do bad things. It was just a thought.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

How am I supporting the robber? I said he killed someone, thats just as wrong as anything else. Anyway, as we dont know the facts yet, anyhting could have happened and that is why the Police have to be suspicious of murder.

---------- Post added at 18:00 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------

You cant just believe the victim and clear him of anything before there has a been a investigation. What a world that would be. At the end of the day, killing someone is a crime to, thats all I was saying.

---------- Post added at 18:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:00 ----------

All I was trying to say, was killing someone is a crime. Im in no way defending the robber.

Re: Right or wrong
 

Exactly.
For most people there is no such thing as innocent until proven guilty, look at this case for instance, for all we know it was a misunderstanding and the shop keep actually had the knife and stabbed the so called attacker believing he was about to be attacked, then concocted a "I was attacked" story.
I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's one of the posibilities that could have happened.
Just like the women who after sleeping with someone on a one night stand or fling while drunk, feel guilty and cry rape. If it had been reported in the same way as this case, you'd be under the impression that a bloke had raped a drunk defenceless girl, and many people would be calling for him to be strung up.

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3449075.ece

Seems the CPS have made their decision.

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Shock horror! Due process followed and sensible outcome reached!

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Agreed, and feel relieved for the guy.

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The only problem with any of this is the genuine fear the shopkeeper and indeed anyone who acts similarly will have felt whilst waiting for the outcome of the case. Clearly, there's substantial and genuine doubt amongst the masses at to exactly what constitutes a reasonable response in any given set of circumstances and despite what the likes of Jack Straw have said over the years that problem remains. Possibly this case will go some way to reassuring people who defend themselves against armed assailants that, whilst investigation of the facts is essential, common sense can/will prevail.

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I'm just thankful it didn't take place in Milton Keynes though, the police here appear to take a dim view on victims of violence who defend themselves.

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I am glad that the shopkeeper can now go back to his life hopefully without too much trouble from this incident. I really would like a system where no names or details of a case appear in the papers before a judicial outcome has been reached. But if we did that how would the politicians know when it is popular to talk tough and when it is better for them to appear lenient such a dilemma for the poor old snouts in the trough.

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Actually, the fact he might have been charged simply shows that the Police turned up to a crime scene. Saw two people, found one dead and one injured, then investigated to find out what happened?