Nice One Porsche
 

I was absolutely delighted when l heard, the news that motor giant Porsche is taking legal action against Ken Livingstone, with the increase in CC, for there type of car plus large cars on the road, that enter the Cz, he should not be allowed to get away with it, and it is about time these major companies stood up to the bloke, in the Central London area, we have some major companies ie, Harrods, John Lewis, Bentalls, and Hamleys, and if these all stood up to Ken, he would have trouble on his hands, if you think, he is always spending OUR money on silly schemes, instead of improving services, he has also invested a lot of OUR money on the Olympic Village, which has already moved business's and homes out of the area, to make way for the games, remember, when he became mayor, he stated, that the CC charge was ONLY for one area, and that was the West End, at it was £8.00, now it has gone to THREE areas, and cost £10.00 and for large cars now £25.00, and he has now added emission zone, where will he stop, so well done Porsche, hopefully many other large companies will follow suit.:mad:

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

So, you are happy for people to be able to buy powerful cars, that emit a lot of various pollutants, drive them into Central London, thus adding to the pollution and traffic already there, and effectively ensuring that if their own powerful cars stay in London, they will never be used for their full potential?

I don't agree with a lot Livingstone says (in fact, generally I find him smarmy to the point he is offensive), but I do agree that we need to be persuading people not to drive if it is not necessary.

Make no mistake, Porsche are not doing this for their customers. They are worried that some customers will start to wonder if they really need a new Porsche if they are going to continue to get caned by taxes.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Arthur, where do you live?

The emission zone is moot. Unless you drive a 7yr old diesel truck which most regular visitors to the zone do not.

Harrods, John Lewis, Bentalls, and Hamleys are not what I would call the major engines of the central london economy, I would imagine the hotel and tourism industry trump them, as do the banking and financial service companies in the city and the hedge funds and private equity in the west end. Retail I would imagine Debenhams Group and whatever the TopShop / Top Man etc group and Next would be a bigger impact and able to cause a bigger stink.

You complained about the stinky buses and taxis not long ago in the emissions thread but failed to note that both pass the emissions standards he is laying down.

There is a thought that if you can spend 80 big ones on a car then another few quid a day to drive it, and well if you live inside the zone with a 90% discount makes the charge less than the cost of a latte it is no big deal.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

you will just have to sell your Porsche Arthur!

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Hi Jkat, l actually drive a roller, l bought it from Dinky toys,(ha.ha), no just to clarify something, fellow members, l don't give a toss, who the company is in London, but someone has to tell Ken Livingstone, that enough is enough, of making money out of us, the companies that we work for, who have to pay these charges to go into London, l used to work for a company, that delivered to the West End area, they worked on a tight budget, but they had four drivers, now that is £40.00 per day, plus parking charges etc, this is what l am talking about, now if you get a parking ticket, that is £80.00.

Ken is always coming out with these crazy schemes, that effect us, the general public, if he doesn't want ANY vehicles in the Central London, then he should come out and say so, But it needs the big shops to come and and say, OUR business is being effected Ken, and enough is enough.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Ken Livingstone had a mandate for the "congestion charge". It is questionable if he has a mandate to re-engineer it as a carbon tax, at least, that will be one of the issues that he must be judged on in the forthcoming election.

Especially in the light of this conversion, the US Embassy's refusal to pay this tax seems fully justified.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

There is far better ways of persuading people than dreaming up ways of cashing in on the excuses of climate change.

If someone can afford to own a Porsche, £25 is not going to be a major issue for them. It's another pathetic attempt to rake in cash from the motorist.

Though I do find the fact the Common Wealth games are coming up in a few years and there has been press reports that there isn't enough money in the pot to cater for this, just a bit of a coincidence if you ask me.

In the words of Sir Alan Sugar to the cretin Ken Livingstone.. You're Fired! :td:

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

No, he is not, he will be re-elected mate;) he is the sure thing....

Red Ken is the best thing that happened to London. He understands London and Londoners love him, despite his shortcomings.

Anyone, for bringing back the pigeons in Trafalgar square?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

The guys who sold bird seed?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Surely road tax is higher if you have a car that has higer emissions?
So you will be paying for it twice?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

What's new about that? Despite Bliar's claim that 'we have no plans to raise taxes', we all pay more tax now than ever on our incomes, savings and expenditure. We even pay VAT on the duty they levy on stuff like petrol and alcohol.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

I know quite a few Ex-Londoners who would disagree with you there.

He understands Londoners? :rofl:

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Its not just CO2 that comes out of exhaust pipes lest we forget that in the current CO2 craze.

Porsche engines are actually comparatively clean burners in terms of other emissions compared to there rivals.

I think it was quoted a few years ago that if you drove one of the Porsche's through an urban area because of all the filtration, burning and catalysts the gas coming out of the exhaust pipe was technically cleaner (in terms of amounts of harmful chemicals) than the air that went in.

Also has it not been published recently that the introduction of the congestion charge has had little to no effect on the number of cars entering london because simply the people going there were going for a reason in the first place and that £8 is nothing compared to how much parking is.

Could it be that Porsche are about to take a large stake in VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) where they will have a much bigger market share

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

The thing that im struggling to usderstand is; If it really is about the environment and not about raising cash. Why doesnt he ban the cars that are in this bracket altogether?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

You're delighted a foreign corporation is threatening to thwart the will of a democratically elected British politician? Interesting...*takes note*. By the way, all four main candidates support keeping the charge, although Boris wants to look at removing it from Kensington, where coincidentally a lot of people vote Tory and a lot of his mates live.

Actually this is something of a press stunt by Porsche, since the £25 proposal is clearly subject to the outcome of the Mayoral election (a point made by his office) and Porsche are not actually taking legal action, merely writing a snotty letter threatening it. I'd like to see their case, which seems to be a) the increase will have a limited effect on CO2 and b) it's going to be bad for our customers and thus (implied) our profits.

There an interesting point here though - if they do win based on what they say they're arguing about (that the change won't have sufficient effect on emissions) does that mean we can all sue the Government for policies that aren't as green as they could be. The Heathrow Third Runway, perhaps, or new road schemes? Gordon Brown's trips to China? The National ID computer? New coal-fired power stations? Zero fuel tax on airlines?

Harrods is a tourist trap run by a nutter, Hamleys is rather expensive but next to Oxford Circus tube station in an area with near zero parking. Bentalls is in Kingston, miles outside the CC area, with a large car park in a town centre substantially disfigured by new roads. There's also a John Lewis in the same area. I'm not sure what your point is, Arthur, picking stores (evidently near where you live) that were designed back in the car-greedy 1980s to be easily reachable by road, thus adding to traffic and pollution?

That's what we're trying to move away from. For instance, the gigantic Westfield development at Shepherd's Bush will have two new stations and a totally refurbished Tube station sandwiching it (and 4500 parking spaces, but hey, 570 cycle bays. Bluewater has 13,000 car spaces, by the way, and is only slightly larger). It would have had a tram too, which was a 2004 manifesto commitment by Livingstone, but it was killed by the Tory councils along the Uxbridge Road. So much for Green Dave Cameron.

Cars aren't needed in central London, large gas-guzzling ones even less so. The CC has won awards and clearly works in shifting people from car to public transport and making the latter more efficient.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Who the hell wants to drive an expensive car like a Porsche in the rat runs of London.There is nowhere to park and driving anywhere in the city is a nightmare and sooo stressful.If I was wealthy enough to afford a Porsche and living in London I'd rather spend the money on Taxis..If there were less of such cars in the centre of London then the buses would be able to run more efficiently

In fact this country being as impacted by cars as it is it's hardly viable to have a car that you cannot drive up to the speeds that they are so obviously bought for.Why buy a Ferrari or similar when you cannot legally drive at the speeds that they capable of?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

I'll ask again...Does not really answer it and well adding costs for illegal parking is not really a justification that the charge itself is unreasonable. In fact if the charge keeps these cars out of the parking and delivery bays your former employer might get less parking tickets. 1 parking ticket = 2 days of congestion charges, that will add up quick.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Actually, I suspect it was a case of the opposite. Londoners voted for him because they found him slightly less offensive than the tory candidate, the liberals continually make the mistake of being open and saying their policies will cost money (nothing seems to frighten voters off quicker than the thought of higher taxes) andall the minority parties are a little bit "out there" for the mainstream voters..

---------- Post added at 14:28 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Name one. Better public transport is one, but is currently hampered by the stupid system of privatisation in place on both tube and trains, and buses are hampered by the number of cars on the road.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

My Mrs, a born (and half-bred) Londoner, votes for him because she remembers him fighting for London against Thatcher in the 1980s, particularly things like Fares Fair, and going down in flames. Don't overestimate the power of martyrdom, being the little guy who gets up and carries on swinging.

While obviously that political capital isn't inexhaustible, it does explain why he won against the odds back in 2000 - nice though Frank Dobson is, no one was going to vote in a candidate deliberately parachuted in to stop Livingstone. He also has a track record of fighting central government and being proved right, for instance on Metronet and London Overground, which is one reason I'm voting for him - see his 2004 manifesto and compare against reality:

2 are waffle (I get high-quality childcare, but I'm not sure he had a lot to do with it), 1 (the housing) I've no idea about, one is half-done (no trams yet, thanks to the Tories and NIMBYs) and the rest I think he gets a tick in the box.

So not quite 'love him', perhaps, but people certainly see him as a true Londoner and thus, fundamentally, on their side, since he generally does what he says he's going to do.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Sticking it to Thatcher is one of the main reasons I vote for him and I think that goes for a lot of people who can remember the 80's.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

It's been 15 years, guys - time to move on ;)

By harking back to the memory of her, you keep it alive (imho).

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

When she dies I will move on.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Hi BB King, my point, that you have asked is this, we pay too much in taxation in this country, l worked in Central London, for about ten years, and everywhere you go, it cost money, when l stated about major stores, it is up to these stores, to put a stop to him, the US Embassy, has already said that they won't pay the CC, if you live in London or live near a major city, everywhere you go, there is a traffic warden, giving you grief,, but it seems to Ken, that we have a bottomless pocket, to pour money into his pocket, my reason for the thread, is that it is about time a company (it could have been any company) stood up to him, l just hope and pray, he doesn't get in again, as what will happen next.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

I dont like Ken Leninspart, I dont like him for what he used to stand for and for what he stands for now. If I want to drive my Porsche or X5 through london why should I be penalised. Why should I have to pay because of my emmisions being slightly more than a fart when there are a huge amount of oil burners still poluting London passing themselves off for taxi's and buses.


Regardless of what guise it comes in, its another tax and NOT a charge for a service.
We pay vehicle tax already, we pay through the nose for fuel (due to the governments taxation on fuel) and now we get taxed if we drive through London.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Most cars can travel over 70mph, so why do you think people buy them then?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

a) because you're having an effect on the environment of the people who live and work there
b) because you're taking up road space which could be used more efficiently
c) because there's a perfectly good alternative
d) because the people who live there want you to, it's called democracy

I've paid it precisely once, which as I've said before I've more than saved in discounts by using Oyster and because bus fares in London are cheaper than the rest of the country and in real terms (and tube fares in the suburbs are a ridiculous bargain of a quid anywhere). If it really were a tax the proceeds of it (legally ringfenced for public transport) wouldn't be spent on measures designed to help people avoid paying it, would they? It's precisely what it says on the tin, a charge designed to encourage modal shift, provide money for public transport (does anyone sane seriously think Ken sticks it in his Swiss bank account?) and reduce air pollution. Now it's proposed to extend this to reducing CO2 emissions, but only after an election.

Next. Incidentally, Mr. Leninspart would like you to know that:

He's nowhere near the stereotypical Red Ken these days, he's as likely to borrow ideas from the US and Singapore and have lunch with a businessman than he is to big up Venezuela and visit a lesbian co-op in Hackney. Read the whole article (yes, obviously it's the Guardian, so go and read Boris' campaign website - http://www.backboris.com/ - for some balance if you want).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...tone.interview

Even the ones in Kingston-upon-Thames, 10+ miles outside the CC zone? Why would they bother? They exist to sell things and make a profit, not campaign against things that enjoy mass support.

Try walking. Free as the air.

Try the tube. Guaranteed free of traffic wardens.

Given his past record, what will happen is precisely what he said would happen. As the article says, what he's really done is end-run the Whitehall Sir Humphreys and lo-and-behold that means things get done faster, better and more efficiently. So if you like hands on politicians and dislike Civil Service bureaucracy...

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Well, there is a simple solution if you don't like the Congestion Charge or fuel duty. Don't drive if you don't need to. You won't have to pay either for the journey then. Also, you won't get any grief from traffic wardens. Also, if you do need/want to drive, but still want to avoid wardens, the choice is simple. Don't park illegally. If you don't, and get a ticket, appeal.

And while we are at it, I'll ask the same question I asked Mick: Bearing in mind that for London to function efficiently, we need to reduce the amount of traffic (how many millions, or even billions of pounds are lost to UK companies because their staff are stuck in traffic?), how would *you* reduce the traffic in London?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Try not to be so patronising it doesn't suit you.

If I want to use the car - I'll use the car - if I want to walk - I'll walk. My choice just as much as the next persons.

People shouldn't have to be forced into doing something just because something else costs more money - it isn't the answer. It just enables those with the money to carry doing what they want because they can afford to. Thus creating a nation of Rich vs The Poor.


And what happened to Freedom of choice? Why should people be bullied by financial penalties to reduce such problems.

Saying 'Don't drive if you don't need to' is completely ridiculous especially from someone who doesn't drive, isn't that right Stuart. :rolleyes:

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

just dont see the attraction of driving these days, such a pain finding parking etc and motorways jammed 24/7. always prefer the train into town and very impressed with londons transport systems (yes i know it could be better and cheaper).

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

People talk about Freedom of Choice, but surely we have some responsibilities as well as rights.

If so many people are using their cars, clogging up the roads and adding to local pollution levels (as well as the lost productivity / reduced quality of life caused by sitting in traffic jams), surely if some one puts it as a manifesto item that he/she is going to try and reduce this congestion, and he/she is voted for by the majority voting, isn't that the democracy that we all want to live under.

It's not as if RK is advocating shooting all motorists - he is saying (and giving the electorate a chance to vote on it) "here's what I will do to alleviate this problem".

I travel to/through London quite a lot, and I can't understand why anyone would want to drive in/through it (in a car), as the public transport is, on the whole, miles better than most other conurbations in the UK (imho).

OK, it can sometimes be a bit smelly and crowded on the train/tube/bus, but at least you can read, which is not recommended whilst you're driving.

I don't see anyone offering any alternatives, unless they are saying that there isn't a congestion problem in Central London. It seems that people are against Congestion Charging (as they are perfectly entitled to be), but I don't see any other solutions offered.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

You still have the choice. You just pay for it.
People who buy Porsches aren't generally poor.

Why is it bullying? And what about those who want the freedom to breathe cleaner air?

I get along fine without a car. The fact I do not drive is irrelevant to this discussion, as I still have to travel, and still suffer the negative consequences of having so many cars in London. More so, I'd dare say, than you do. Before you answer that, bear in mind that I live and work in London, and travel into Central London anywhere up to three times a week. Thus, I spend at least 95% of my life in or around London.

Also, it's no more ridiculous that people buying 4x4s to take the kids less than half a mile to school, and there seem to be thousands that do that.

And you haven't answered my earlier question to you.

Finally, we have two big problems in this country: Pollution and obesity. Encouraging people to walk or cycle (although I find some cyclists irritating) would seem to be a good way to help with both.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Which all meet the new emission requirements for a Low Emission Zone.
I see we have the US Embassys defence down pat. This is there arguement, it is a tax not a charge (and governments do not tax other governments). I guess they won't mind when the British Consulate in NYC does not pay the charges when they put a similar zone in Manhattan.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Which is wrong.

Precisely my point.

Freedom - there is no such thing as Freedom - Everything has a cost these days.

Ah - making judegments now are we... :td:

Just because you get along without a car doesn't mean someone else has to. I kind of find it arrogant when non-drivers tell other people not to drive if they don't need to.

And I am not going to. Get over it.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Not at all. Merely pointing out that you are wrong to say my opinion is not relevant because I am not a motorist. What next? I can't say whether I like Ken Livingstone or not, because I am not a Labour voter?

I am not saying anyone has to. Why is it arrogant to ask people not to drive if they don't need to? There's plenty of things I only do if I need to because they are expensive, why should driving be any different?

Ah, OK. You moan about excessive costs for running a car in London. I ask you to provide an alternative that will reduce the traffic (and, incidentally, make things better for those motorists willing/able to pay the charge), and you refuse.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

a) less of an impact than other vehicles which aren't going to be penalised more though. So it's really a popularist "tax the rich, make them pay for being successful and actually getting off their backsides" rather than "lets implement the best device to reduce pollution in the city"
b) so does an estate car or mpv with only one person in it, yet they aren't going to be given an extra penalty. Again, showing that looking good to the public is what this is really about, not targetting what would make the most impact.
c) likewise with other vehicles which aren't going to be penalised more though.
d) so democracy to you is where many of those affected by something have no say in it's implementation? I'll make a note of that.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Hi Stuart, l totally respect your comment, the way that l would reduce, the traffic situation in London is quite simple, Apart from working in London, part of my job, was to deliver over the UK, and l used to love working in Oxford, they have a solution, where l believe could work in London, in the main town centre, where all the colleges are, ALL delivery vehicles have to be out by 8-00 otherwise bollards, come up through the road, and if you are stuck, you get hammered by an £80.00 ticket, the roads are free to go as you please, and there is a good bus service, in London, they could operate the same system, but as some restuarants etc, does'nt accept deliveries before 11-00, you could operate it, so that no delivery vehicles would deliver after 11.30, the majority of business's have car parks, but you could have overspill car parks, on the perimeter of the central london area, and get the tube to where you want to go, this could work, but unfortunately, we do have a problem with red tape in London, so l don't know about other areas of the UK, you could also have pedestrian only roads, except for buses, any better solutions.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Tube terminal car parks based on any suitable land near the major junctions of the M25, pay for parking and your tube ticket in one go.
Secure for vehicles, easy for commuters, reduces conjestion in London, costs a fair bit initially, and doesn't get Ken any cash though.
Course many commuters already do this, I used to drive up the A3 to Clapham and get on the tube from there, or when I moved, down to Little Chalfont, simply because there was free parking, and it was cheaper than a train.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

As Harry Hill Would say............ MODDDDDDDD FIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTT

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Because when it comes down to it - Money is the excuse that get used to control people, to reduce emissions, people will have to pay more, to stop congestion people are going to have to pay more.

All this reduce emissions crap that people are going on about in the UK means jack all to me because we are a country that is minute compared to nations such as China and the USA - when they start giving a damn, I will because nothing we do, will stop the problems the world will face if the USA and China don't get their act together to reduce their massive emissions.

Yeah the UK can do all it can to reduce its emissions but we are urinating in the wind thanks to the likes of USA and China.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Oh, I agree about the US and Chinese, but we won't be in a position to tell them to clean up their act until we clean up ours..

Also, since when has it been OK to say "Well he did it, so I am"?

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

You sound so convinced that even if we do clean up our act - they suddenly will which is very bizarre.

Think of it as someone trying to save a sinking ship filling up with millions of gallons of water every minute and one person trying with all their might removing just three or four gallons of water every few minutes, its a clear waste of time, someone should tell the chap the ship is doomed despite all his efforts and hard work.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

A,
I'm having an effect on the enviroment? Where does anyone who uses public transport get off saying I'm having an effect when the buses that drive on the streets of London that you use belch out clouds of noxious gases? Does it make you feel better because your not behind the wheel of a vehicle yet you choose to use one that polutes more than a knackered 20yr old escort.

B,
Road space huh? The bigger the car the more road tax you pay therefore you are effectivly paying for that little bit more space.

C,
Good alternative? What public transport can get me from my front door to my place of work and back again at a time that I need to.

D,
Democracy, Isnt that Labours way of saying were gonna tax you to within an inch of your life and then tax you some more after your dead.

Does a leopard change its spots? He's red through and through and he's also someone in an authoritive position that needs a double scotch to kick start him in the morning.

Try telling my 73yr old mother that. No traffic wardens on the tube but for a frail old woman the bustle and rush on the tube isnt any help to her. Plus its way to hot in the summer.


Down pat? I suppose intelligent minds think alike. Its not only the US but many other embassys are refusing to pay due to the taxation they see it is.


I totally agree with that statement.
But then there will be some who will say that we have to start somewhere. Why should we be the ones to set an example when our overall emissions ATM are a lot lower than many 1st world countries and a hell of a lot lower than many more emergin 3rd world countries.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Why should we control our kids behaviour when others won't?
Why should I not drop litter when everyone else does?
Why shouldn't I steal from shops when I see others doing it?
Why should I recycle when others don't
Why should we try to control emissions when others don't?

Also, once again, people appear to be accidently confusing localised pollution and planetary levels - it's like saying why bother having clean tap water since the sea is so salty; if we don't start somewhere, we may as well give up (imho).

As a noted philosopher once said -
"if not you, who?
If not now, when?"

We can't (imho) ignore the problem and hope it goes away. I have kids, I would like them to enjoy the planet.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Not at all, and the kind of pollution I started referring to is the kind that hangs around all traffic jams.

Fair enough, but it sounded exactly how I said it.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

I control my kids behaviour
I dont drop litter
I dont steal
I do recycle
I keep the emmisions on my vehicles within guidlines


Sea water isnt palatable (IMO) Neither are the taxes we have to pay.


"The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next"

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

...and you think it isn't now? Perhaps it is and you're just in the half that have the money and not those that don't.

For me I'm below the level that allows me to run a car and live, so I don't mind - you on the other hand may be pushed into the same bracket as me and don't like the idea. :scratch:

Food for thought

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Hi fellow members, l must confess, l do start some good threads, don't l, the road systems, that l would like to see in London or any other city/town centre, would be the system they have in St.Albans, Herts, where they have different service areas, for delivery vehicles, and the traffic goes in a circle, and it moves freely, well it did when l drove round it.

Re: Nice One Porsche
 

Quite appropriate, since we are talking about public transport vs private - Matthew Arnold died running for a tram car in Liverpool when he suffered a heart attack.

Funnily enought, he also said "Nature, with equal mind, Sees all her sons at play, Sees man control the wind, The wind sweep man away"

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------

Arthur, StAlbans has a population of 130,000, and has has a lot of new infrastructure - it would be a little more difficult to match this in a city of 8 million (60 x the size).