Another MP in trouble?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7212990.stm

....and it was only a few weeks ago that Stephen Pound was banging on about how hard they all work, how they're overscrutinised and how they deserve more pay etc. Well Mr Pound, if so many of your peers weren't either inept or worse, maybe you'd all receive a little more public sympathy.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

How can he break a rule if there is no rule to be broken?

Instead of moaning, why doesn't the Standards and Privileges Committee draft a standard contract of employment to be signed by MPs and their staff?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

i thought that but if u read further

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

They don't seem to have a rule about keeping track of the work done. Why doesn't the committee write one, instead of trying to score political points?

If you add up the time taken, I wonder how much money the committee spent on considering this case?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

true but
maybe there is more to it than reported otherwise why is he apologising? and u got to admit its wide open for corruption.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Whether there is a legal requirement or not, given the amounts involved, I'd have thought anyone in his position would have kept some record of work done by the family member(s) if only to serve as proof in cases like this where some doubt has been cast. Common sense not rocket science....

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Or even just produce something, anything, that would show that Junior wasn't just taking the money and running. Evidently he couldn't. It can't take much evidence to convince a committee made up of MPs, surely, but Mr. Conway seems not to have been able to do so.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Hmm - wonder how many other MP's are on that particular gravy train. As I read it, he got caught out because an opposing candidate decided to nitpick the MP's accounts. Maybe we should all do that ;)

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Hell Yes. If they weren't scared of scrutiny they wouldn't try and hide everything.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Exactly. What is this, a "stab you in the back" committee? If they can't come up with a simple set of rules for MPs to employ staff, how do they think they can manage to run the country?

Or, to look at it another way, there are 646 MPs to "control", which is about the size of an SME.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

If you are interested - the links at the top of this page give summaries of the expenses claimed by each MP. Unfortunately, it doesn't say who they each paid the £80K+ staffing costs to.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Hmm, how many businesses "employ" family members to get out of paying tax?
Hundreds of thousands I suspect.

If there's no rules for proving work was done for money paid, it doesn't matter if the money was paid to Joe Bloggs or Junior, something is wrong with that picture, and the comittee should look into sorting that out sharpish.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

In this case what the committee objected to was that he was paid more than the average pay for, basically, sitting downloading stuff of the internet, and then got a bonus on top, not to mention generous pension contributions. When asked to justify it they couldn't. His elder brother had previously pulled the same trick and apparently just coincidentally his appointment coincided with Mr. Conway moving from 81st to 1st in the most costly staff allowances list...

It's important to recognise that he's been collared not for giving jobs to his family (which is fine) but for paying them more than reasonable amounts (which isn't).

Conway also apparently claimed for a second house in London when he's MP for, er, Bexley, which is 13 miles away.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Yeah but it's a long 13 miles, cabbies hate travelling south of the river and Bexley station's a bit nippy at this time of year..... :)

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

So he paid his son 6% more than the middle of the lowest payscale, for work which his son was qualified for and the comittee agreed needed doing, yet was still well below the maximum he could have paid his son?
So the only real issue is lack of proof that the work was done, strange, surely there would be evidence that the important work which needed doing wasn't done, and that his son was given bonuses?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

So maybe the committee can put together a pay scale (or borrow one from Whitehall)? Perhaps a contract of employment, too?

Aren't these standard in the real world?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Thing is, there is a pay scale, he was on the lowest one, being paid 6% above the mid point. So wasn't being paid as much as he could have been.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Oops - you did say that earlier!

So what is all the fuss about?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Lack of evidence that the work done was actually done by him. I say it like that because the comittee have said the work needed doing, and he was qualified to do it, and if there was evidence that it hadn't been done, surely that would be evidence that he hadn't done it, therefore there must be evidence that the work has been done, just no evidence as to who actually did the work.
Hmm, person employed and paid for work, person qualified for work required, work done, but lets get uppety because they didn't fill in timesheets etc.
Oh and they said the bonuses he gave his son were larger than they should have been.

Course, the BNP candidate who brought this investigation didn't have an axe to grind over losing the election while standing as an Independant, oh no, definitely not.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Don't the guys on this committee have better things to do with their time? Who is paying them anyway?

Oh, hang on...

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Maybe a comittee should be set up to investigate?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Given that this is all public money why is it that MPs are not required to keep accurate records of their expenditure?

Is it any wonder that the country is in the state it is in while this ridiculous system exists?

Parliament is clearly in need of reform.There needs to be a clear set of rules and operating procedures for MPs and we need a Parliamentary Ombudsman with powers to dismiss MPs not just give them a slap on the wrist when they breach them.

Vast amounts of money are wasted in Parliament, which is not as transparent or as accountable as it should be. Why each MP needs a personal support team is beyond me when an executive typist/PA pool for all MPs would save money?

Not only do MPs have overinflated salaries and overabused allowances they also want to abuse the priveleges they have and have incomes outside Parliament.

Pity we do not have a payment by results system as the taxpayer might get better government and less wastage of public funds.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Here's an idea: MPs salaries and other expenses are paid by their constituents, so when you get your "begging" letter from the local council each year it explicitly includes the amount paid to your local MP.

Might make more people vote at general elections.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Funnily enough, he's lost the party whip at Dave's request, and has been suspended from parliment for 10 days.
Not to mention he's actually appologised for any mistakes he made.

Stark contrast to more serious breaches of law from the government's ministers.

So he's been punished like this not for paying his son to do nothing, that's never been proven, so in this nation, if we uphold innocent until proven guilty, then we must take his word that his son did the work he was paid for, he's been punished for not keeping timesheets of his son's work.
Loss of party whip, 10 day suspension, chance of being speaker of the house gone, and having to pay £13,000.
Now, how long did it take Hain to leave? Was he suspended from parliment or lose the party whip? Nope, didn't think so.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

"Employing" his own family as members of his parliamentary support team is surely a conflict of interest.

If this were to happen in private industry he would be sacked as a minimum and would face charges of fraud since there is no evidence that his son did any work.

The punishment needs to be more extreme for a priveleged person on a good salary, generous expenses and a gold-plated pension.

Politicians are only public servants and it's clear that they do need monitoring. A totally independent organisation is needed for this as politicians tend to keep matters like this in house and can only be relied on to hide the truth.

As for Hain, he should have gone a long time and would have done if we had clear operating procedures & standards as well as a Parliamentary Ombudsman with powers to dismiss errant MPs.

MPs it seems are no longer honourable just self-serving.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7215386.stm

Here's another ... there must be something in the House of Commons water..

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Employing family members happens in hundreds of thousands of companies all over the nation, and mostly just as a tax fiddle where no actual work is done by the "employee"
Company secretaries, tea boys, perhaps you've never seen a company name followed by "& sons" then?
Get real!
Of course people should be allowed to employ family members if there is work to be done, especially in roles where you're likely to be far away from your spouse for instance.
The issue here is that there were no timesheets recording that his son (who lets not foget was being paid less than he could have been paid) actually did the work done.
Now, feel free to throw innocent until proven guilty out the window, personally, I like living in Britain where that persumption still holds true.
The comittee were unable to prove that his son did not do the work, they even agreed that the work needed doing and his son was qualified for the role.
They've only disagreed with the bonuses paid, and are unhappy that there is no record of him actually doing the work, but think about most people's work, if they're part of a team, how do they prove they actually contributed? Especially if there is no requirement for them to do so until one is brought in at a later date.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

You are innocent into you are proved guilty but it does help if there is evidence to support your innocence. Courts are after all about proof not faith.

In what must be one of the most sleaze-ridden governments, commentators have repeatedly highlighted the need for transparency. In a democratic society, what applies to the government must also apply equally to members of the opposition.

If Conway had not employed a relative and had kept appropriate records he would not now be being censured by not only Parliament but his own party too. I commend David Cameron for taking the action he has done.

In politics, you have to be stain free and that means taking exceptional care to see that everything is done well above board.

In truth, this situation should never have happened in that when Ian Duncan Smith's wife was accused in a similar way every MP should have taken that as a wake-up call and should have ensured that they were free from such accusations. It seems that MPs do not learn lessons after all.

As for private companies employing relatives, companies are subject to quite a lot of requirements not least from the Inland Revenue who do require that accounts are submitted and that there is evidence in the form of staff payrolls, bank statements, invoices, purchase orders, cheques stubs, credit card statements, timesheets and receipts to support the accounts. The accounts they submit reflect their income and expenditure from trade unlike governments which have to account for public monies collected via taxes from the general public.

It's sad that MPs cannot work to the same rigorous standard. If they did we might have fewer of these tacky incidents where MPs have been less than honourable and in a way that disfavours the taxpayer.

What's the betting that we still have similar cases like this in the future? It will be interesting to see whether MPs take the hint and recognise that we want effective, efficient, transparently accountable government by MPs who genuinely put the needs of the nation before their own.

As usual only time and whistleblowers will tell.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

You don't have to submit to HMRC timesheets for your employees.
As long as you can show how much you've paid them, and that they've paid the required amount of tax, they're happy. I used to run my own business with my ex as my company secretary!

This has nothing to do with there being a relationship between the person paid and the person paying.
Had he paid Mrs Mop off the street the same amount and Conway not been able to provide evidence that the work was done by her, he'd be in the same state.

Can you please understand, the issue is not that a family member was employed, but that Conway is unable to prove that the person paid to do the work actually did it.
You'll also notice that the comittee is unable to provide any evidence that his son did not do the work, it acknowledges the work was done and his son was qualified to do the work.
It also acknowledges that his son was on the lowest pay scale, so not over paid.
The issue of overpayment comes from the bonuses, which the comittee disagrees with.

Storm, teacup, severely dealt with by the party which makes a change from how Labour treat similar cases.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Here's another idea - How about MP's setting an example to us all by acting beyond reproach?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

However, if you do have the timesheets your case does a lot more credible.

If he had paid a complete stranger there would be less suspicion of collusion. It would't mean any collusion wasn't there just that it appears less likely.

You stress that the committee were unable to prove things against him.

I stress that he was unable to prove his complete innocence and as an MP I would have expected that he would have appreciated the need for scrupulous transparency and good business organisation.

If he had got away with this there would be no change and indeed this sloppiness would continue. Now MPs have had another warning shot fired across their bows with the message that they need to get their affairs in order.

I doubt if we will agree on this as I am fed up with sleaze in government particularly as MPs are paid 2 or 3 times the average national salary and many honest people exist on a lot less. I seriously question if we have any MPs with sufficient integrity to do what's best for the country but's that another story.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Sorry? Again, this is Britain, the burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused!

Is there a legal or parlimental requirement to keep timesheets or evidence of work? No, there wasn't, and that's why he's not been punished for that.
Should there be? Yes, it makes sense, but you can't make the introduction of such a requirement retroactive can you?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Just before going to bed last night, I spent half an hour reading through the report from the Standards and Privileges Committee (http://www.publications.parliament.u.../280/28002.htm)

The main findings were:

They suggested he repay the money, and face a 10 day suspension.

He broke a rule, was found out, and was punished. OK, now can we move on?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Move on from what exactly? A discussion about MP's breaking rules? You're free to move on whenever you like but why is it necessary for anyone else to do so if they think it's a subject worthy of debate?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

:dozey: I was referring to the media trying to turn a molehill into a mountain.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Then it might be more helpful for you to make that point to them.... ;)

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

There might be a few journalists in the Cable Forum membership. Stranger things have happened... ;)

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3279621.ece

I wonder what they might have to hide??

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Arent all mp's thieving liars :)

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Stephen Pound MP has been banging on again about how well scrutinised our MP's are, well if that's true why is it that these issues have taken so long to surface?

He points out that it's tough being an MP (my heart bleeds) and the public can always vote them out if/when they do wrong. Given that could be up to 5 years distant, though, it's hardly the most immediate of sanctions is it? Furthermore for all those who vote on party lines, it's really no sanction since amongst other things the alternative of voting for another party would likely be unthinkable.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

So the Standards and Privileges Committee suggested (suggested!) he repay up to £13,161 of the £43,000 in salary and bonuses he gave to his younger son and that he be suspended from Parliament for ten days, and you think he's been punished?! If I'd misused my employer's money like that, I think I might have been treated rather differently. And allowing him to stay on until the next election, claiming salary and expenses, is more like a pat on the back.

There are more important things going on in politics, so I think we should move on, but please don't try to play down what he did. Drawing comparisons between how the Labour party and the Tories handle unworthy MPs is to close to comparing rotten and rancid.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Yes, and the House voted to uphold the suggestion. That's the way it works, apparently.

As I've been saying all along, if the S&P Committee spent more time on tightening the rules (and making them more explicit), there would be no need for this "after the fact" punishment.

Well, it all depends on your employer's written rules, doesn't it!

He still has a job to do, and he does it well, from what I've heard.

I don't mean to play it down, but I do think this the checks and balances have been applied. Why should this man be punished further because the media chose to make a story about it?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

So it does. :rolleyes:

And if MPs behaved like the honourable people they are meant to be (after all we must trust them to govern us) there would be no need to tighten the rules. If they are not to be trusted with getting their expenses right, why should the electorate trust them with anything else?

I can't imagine many employers who would put up this kind of stuff. What do you think would have happened to a council employee who acted in this way? Conway's sons received £82,000 of public money for doing nothing. That's more than some people earn in a decade.

Meaning he's a Tory and therefore must be doing a good job? Or if it's not that, in what way does he do his job well?

I still think this is a more serious issue than you suggest. Most MPs are not thieves, but the media should make a story every time an MP is caught with his hands in the till (and it should not detract from other issues they need to cover). In any other walk of life it's called theft and might well gain someone a criminal record, barring them from many positions of trust. But MPs are special, they don't commit theft, they make 'mistakes'!

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Freezin, company execs waste millions each year, just look at NTL, and do you think they get punished with their massive bonuses and pensions?
No, in the real world of course they don't get punished.
It doesn't appear he's actually broken any rules as there weren't any written, but the comittee disagreed with how he used the money, so are making him pay it back and suspended him for 10 days.

Compare that with Hain, or those involved with other dodgy funding schemes of the government.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

so u would vote for him then xac? its ok if he says "btw i'm paying my family out of your taxes for doing nothing because there are no rules, would u like me to put u on the payroll as well if u dont say anythin?" (hypothetically of course) :)

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

If he said "I'm paying people to do nothing" then no, but that isn't the case here, he paid his son to do some work, but the comittee believed it took fewer hours to do than what was paid for.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

who makes up the committee?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Not the same thing. Company executives are not public servants elected and paid for by the taxpayer.

There is no honour left in politics if we can't trust our politicians to act with integrity because there are no rules. (And they are only making him pay a little of it back.)

I did, rotten and rancid, like I said.

From today's Daily Telegraph:

The rest of this scathing 3 page report, entitled "Derek Conway's head and shoulders in the trough", is here.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/7223828.stm

Another fine example........

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

So why did you compare it to private business then in the first place? :confused:

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

It may have been posted before:Taxi bill and travel for Mrs Martin

But all this is very common with expenses accounts. How else can one afford 6 quid for a class of ordinary plonk?

How many times you forget the receipt and you cannot make a claim?

I was given a lot of *******ing for claiming for a usb charger for my mobile phone: I had to prove that I made no personal calls from the phone... I threw the claim away. And many more....

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

I compared what would have happened to me, and a hypothetical council employee, if we had stolen money from our employers. In all probability, we'd have been sacked and possibly faced criminal proceedings, unlike MPs.

What makes MPs so special?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

OT, but an interesting example of how expenses aren't always run very well.

A fairly senior manager in an unnamed firm needed to take a trip on Virgin Trains, and looked for the cheapest advance fare. Because the cheap Standard class tickets had all been sold, the cheapest available fare was First Class, with all the trimmings, so she bought that. On submitting the expense claim she was carpeted by a Finance Director for wasting the company's money on First Class rail travel, despite clearly having picked the cheapest ticket...

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

The missus went on Virgin Trains the other day. The First Class ticket was cheaper than the economy one. seriously.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Yes, the First class problem...I was really fed up with explaining to the accountants that almost every Eurostar train has 25 First class seats that are cheaper than second class. In the end, I picked up the phone and I spoke to the senior management of Eurostar. The frogs renamed those seats as "leisure Select" and voila no problem with the accountants...

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Given that MPs are apparently self-employed I wondered if they were governed by the same rules as mere mortals.

If a job comes available in a company, the company is required to advertise and interview candidates. This means that there is a job specification and a person specification that the candidate has to meet. Similar process occur for cvil service posts. Wonder if this process happened in these cases .

It does appear that MPs are above the law in that they don't have to submit to legal requirements which they lay down for others.

They are not subject to the Freedom Of Information Act and now we learn that they appear to be above criminal investigation even by the Anti-Terrorist police.

They are able to claim for allowances for duties which one would have thought to be part of the job e.g. attendance allowance. Imagine if your boss said that every time you came to work you would receive an allowance over and above your salary.

Derek Conway's comment that the wives of a number of MPs have used their maiden names to make the link to the MP less obvious seems to suggest that MPs are conscious of the fact that employing family members would be perceived unfavourably, which indeed it has.

Interesting too that Party Leaders can only ASK MPs to be more transparent rather than like the rest of us be legally required too.

Given all this, it begs the question who are MPs actually accountable too especially as they keep all the business in house, have a rather weak Parliamentary Ombudsman and only react positively when electors become aware of their Parliamentary transgressions?

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Well, don't forget that MPs effectively have two jobs - they have to be available to their constituents, and have to appear in Westminster. Ministers will have even more work to do.

Re: Another MP in trouble?
 

Surely that would be claimed under travel expenses.

For example when a sales rep turns up to a meeting with a client in one part of the country he does not get an attendance allowance for turning up. He's expected to turn up and has been paid to do so.

If he then has a client in another part of the country similarly he does not receive an attendance allowance just for turning up but claims travel expenses.

We seem to have a system whereby MPs get paid an attendance alllowance and claim expenses as well. Even worse we do not appear to have a rigorous method of auditing MP's claims to see if they are valid.