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jkat 15-06-2007 08:32
still racist
 
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200706...s-2d5f290.html
Quote:
Black people are six times more likely to be subjected to stop-and-search operations than other ethnic groups and nearly twice as likely to enter the CJS as a result, the Home Affairs Committee found.

Estimates predict that three-quarters of the young black male population will soon be on the DNA database as a consequence of disproportionate arrest rates, the report said.
this has to stop.

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:01
Re: still racist
 
Just cuz they are more likely to stop and search does not mean imo they are being treated racially. In some areas of the country there are gangs solely made up by " please insert correct term as I do not know what to say as it may be construed as offensive so ill just let others decide the PC term" Maybe in areas of high crime where these gangs are maybe these are influencing the figures? Ive seen youths of all colours id stop and search if I was old bill purely on how they look act and hang round. There is a gang culture here and if you see from the news a lot of those involved fall into the "insert correct term again" category

Pia 15-06-2007 09:01
Re: still racist
 
Oh please:rolleyes:

Soon they'll be letting black criminals get away with it in case they're seen as racist....

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:06
Re: still racist
 
To determin any racism behind it, they need to investigate what proportion of people stopped are then arrested, and how many of those arrested are actually charged and end up in court.
If the majority of those arrested end up in court, then no it's not racist, it's catching criminals.
If a larger proportion of non-blacks arrested end up in court, and only a small proportion of blacks arrested end up in court, then it would suggest something is wrong, as it means more innocent black people are being arrested.
Course if they're stopping more people of one ethnic group, then they'll find more dodgy people to arrest, however, is that a bad thing?
It's well known that black kids in general do worse at schools, similarly it's well know that poor kids in general do worse at schools, and the two are often linked.
Therefore you could gain statistics showing that the police stop more poor people than reasonably comfortable people.
Looking at the prison population though, the majority by a long way are still white.
The problem with reports or ineffective action on these reports is that your average decent bobby who's not racist but stops people because alarm bells ring, may now be over cautious of stopping black people for fear of appearing racist, even if alarm bells go off.

Russ 15-06-2007 09:08
Re: still racist
 
I wonder if it's geographical. In areas with a higher black population, surely the number of searches will rise proportionally.

superbiatch 15-06-2007 09:11
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34328753)
I wonder if it's geographical. In areas with a higher black population, surely the number of searches will rise proportionally.
I have to agree with this, given the amount of black people in my area, there will be very few black people being searched - are we getting a true picture?

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:15
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328752)
To determin any racism behind it, they need to investigate what proportion of people stopped are then arrested, and how many of those arrested are actually charged and end up in court.
If the majority of those arrested end up in court, then no it's not racist, it's catching criminals.
If a larger proportion of non-blacks arrested end up in court, and only a small proportion of blacks arrested end up in court, then it would suggest something is wrong, as it means more innocent black people are being arrested.
Course if they're stopping more people of one ethnic group, then they'll find more dodgy people to arrest, however, is that a bad thing?
It's well known that black kids in general do worse at schools, similarly it's well know that poor kids in general do worse at schools, and the two are often linked.
Therefore you could gain statistics showing that the police stop more poor people than reasonably comfortable people.
Looking at the prison population though, the majority by a long way are still white.
The problem with reports or ineffective action on these reports is that your average decent bobby who's not racist but stops people because alarm bells ring, may now be over cautious of stopping black people for fear of appearing racist, even if alarm bells go off.
what about those who are stopped who have been arrested in the past or have been suspects in crime or are known associates of other criminals? Just cuz a search does not result in arrest or charge does not mean the person does not merit a search now and then

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by superbiatch (Post 34328754)
I have to agree with this, given the amount of black people in my area, there will be very few black people being searched - are we getting a true picture?

course we are not. I personally feel we never do when race is concerned. Its always perverted to make figures look like the poor "insert politically correct term" are being persecuted when they aint at all


I mean no offence with my unwillingness to express any terminology when it comes to race. I serious do not know what term to use as in the wrong context it could be made to look like im rascist its happened here before

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:16
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328755)
what about those who are stopped who have been arrested in the past or have been suspects in crime or are known associates of other criminals? Just cuz a search does not result in arrest or charge does not mean the person does not merit a search now and then
Exactly.
Hence why I said about those arrested ending up in court.
If the police have a valid reason for stopping and searching someone, then they should.
If there is a disproportionate number of blacks being arrested and then released without charge (ie shouldn't have been arrested in the first place) compared with other groups, then something is wrong.

Course if Joe Bloggs has a history of crime, but isn't doing anything to warrent a stop and search, then the police shouldn't waste their time stopping and searching him.

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:18
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328758)
Exactly.
Hence why I said about those arrested ending up in court.
If the police have a valid reason for stopping and searching someone, then they should.
If there is a disproportionate number of blacks being arrested and then released without charge (ie shouldn't have been arrested in the first place) compared with other groups, then something is wrong.

Course if Joe Bloggs has a history of crime, but isn't doing anything to warrent a stop and search, then the police shouldn't waste their time stopping and searching him.
if Joe bloggs has a history of violent crime and carrying weapons then searching this guy isnt a waste of time imo whether he looks like he is upto something or not

Also not everyone arrested ends up in court even if they are guilty of a crime what about cautions? what about giving evidence grassing? they would be arrested but not in court does not mean they shouldnt have been pulled

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:25
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328760)
if Joe bloggs has a history of violent crime and carrying weapons then searching this guy isnt a waste of time imo whether he looks like he is upto something or not

Also not everyone arrested ends up in court even if they are guilty of a crime what about cautions? what about giving evidence grassing? they would be arrested but not in court does not mean they shouldnt have been pulled
Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the difference between those arrested without reason, and those validly arrested. I'll try to make myself more clear next time.

If Joe Bloggs is out shopping, or wearing a suit on his way to a funeral, or obviously not carrying anything, you think he should have his and the police's time wasted for stopping him just because he's Joe Bloggs?

TheDaddy 15-06-2007 09:25
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia (Post 34328748)
Oh please:rolleyes:

Soon they'll be letting black criminals get away with it in case they're seen as racist....
Or reformed gang members will appear on late night radio shows blaming their ner' do well ways on not having enough black role models, rather than his own laziness and greed, the presenter agrees with him and say's the media takes no notice of successful black people, pointing out no black barristers or judges appearing on tv, well perhaps I am watching the wrong shows but I can't remember the last time I saw any judges on tv at all, except Rumpole perhaps

punky 15-06-2007 09:26
Re: still racist
 
I think people will suprised to note that its actually as a result of intelligence lead policing, than racism.

For example. Someone is mugged. They get a description of a young black man with a black jacket. Police are going to stop and search anyone fitting that description, looking for her possessions.

Because descriptions are typically vague, it does hit ethnic groups harder, as they are less distinguishing features (for example, white people normally have variying hair colours, so reduces the amount of people that would be needed to stop and search).

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:27
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34328766)
Or reformed gang members will appear on late night radio shows blaming their ner' do well ways on not having enough black role models, rather than his own laziness and greed, the presenter agrees with him and say's the media takes no notice of successful black people, pointing out no black barristers or judges appearing on tv, well perhaps I am watching the wrong shows but I can't remember the last time I saw any judges on tv at all, except Rumpole perhaps
And when a successful black man (Bill Crosby) speaks out and says that these days the only thing stopping young blacks being successful is themselves, wasting time on gangs and crime rather than getting an education and a decent job, he's shouted down and called a traitor.

jkat 15-06-2007 09:27
Re: still racist
 
wow looks like i was wrong reading some of the posts, so your saying blacks commit more crime than whites then? or are u saying "i'm not racist but"?

http://193.113.211.175/duty/duty_facts.html

Quote:
Ethnic minorities are often the most deprived in our society. They are proportionately more likely to live in the most deprived areas, in unpopular, overcrowded housing. They are more likely to be poor and unemployed, regardless of age, sex, qualifications and place of residence.

The services most poorly rated for recognising the different needs of ethnic minorities include the police, immigration services, the courts and local councils, especially council housing. One in eight ethnic minority people reported discrimination at a job interview.

African Caribbean pupils are over four to six times more likely to be excluded than white pupils, although they are no more likely to truant than others. Many of those excluded are of higher or average ability although the schools see them as underachieving.

An African Caribbean graduate is more than twice as likely to be unemployed as a white person with A-levels. African men with degrees are seven times more likely to be unemployed than white male graduates.
no its racism, no buts.

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:27
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328765)
Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the difference between those arrested without reason, and those validly arrested. I'll try to make myself more clear next time.

If Joe Bloggs is out shopping, or wearing a suit on his way to a funeral, or obviously not carrying anything, you think he should have his and the police's time wasted for stopping him just because he's Joe Bloggs?
How can anyone obviously appear to not be carrying anything? Ive seen violence at funerals before.Knives can be small and hidden anywhere

You were clear but its how do you get to know someone is arrested without reason? They come out and say they nicked me for nothing mate? could be bull?

IMO if someone is a known violent criminal hassle him at every oppurtunity whether he is black white or whatever. Make life as difficult for him/her as possible

TheDaddy 15-06-2007 09:31
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328769)
And when a successful black man (Bill Crosby) speaks out and says that these days the only thing stopping young blacks being successful is themselves, wasting time on gangs and crime rather than getting an education and a decent job, he's shouted down and called a traitor.
:tu:

Funnily enough the next part of the show talked about the people that have most influence over the worlds media, Oprah Winfry and Tiger Woods were 1 & 2 :dozey:

punky 15-06-2007 09:32
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
and nearly twice as likely to enter the CJS as a result, the Home Affairs Committee found.
Presumably because they were doing something wrong and they were caught?

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:35
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328771)
You were clear but its how do you get to know someone is arrested without reason? They come out and say they nicked me for nothing mate? could be bull?
By them not recieving a caution or being sent to court, ie were arrested on a charge which wasn't valid, such as an old man calling out "rubbish" doing a politicians speach being arrested under anti-terrorism laws.
The police record how many arrests were made, how many were released without further action, how many were cautioned, how many were referred to the courts.
It's not rocket science to see that if the police are arresting and releasing 30% of blacks arrested compared with 5% of any other group, then they are targetting blacks, and this should be investigated to find out why, for various reasons such as why is so much police time and money being wasted arresting people who shouldn't have been arrested?

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:38
Re: still racist
 
again I say just cuz someone is arrested as a suspect but is not charged does not ness make it a waste of time. You cant have a system where the law can not take action just in case it upsets a race. Often someone who has commited such crimes in the past looks like a good possible suspect. I have no problem with him being pulled in for questioning. Often this will be done without arrest if the guy/gal plays the game but if they refuse to help often an arrest is needed. I personally do not have a problem with this. I doubt the police arrest many people for absolutely no reason at all

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:44
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34328770)
wow looks like i was wrong reading some of the posts, so your saying blacks commit more crime than whites then? or are u saying "i'm not racist but"?

http://193.113.211.175/duty/duty_facts.html

no its racism, no buts.
The majority of people who commit crimes are poor right?
If a large proportion of the black community are poor, then there is likely to be a large group of poor black people committing crimes.
It's logical.
Social mobility in this country is at an all time low, so if your parents are poor and poorly educated, then you're likely to also be poor and poorly educated, making it harder for you to find a well paid job.
When people are poor, especially the youth, they feel abandoned by society so form gangs. Their gang becomes their only point of respect, everyone and everything outside the gang is viewed as having abandoned them (remember these are poorly educated gang members who are unaware of the help that is available or the reality of life) and so have no problem committing crimes to get by.
Same thing happens with white or asian groups who feel abandoned by society.

In an area where there is a larger proportion of poor blacks than poor whites or asians, then I would expect more blacks to commit crime than any other groups.
Likewise, in an area where there is a larger proprotion of poor whites than other groups, I'd expect most crime to be committed by whites.
How is that racist?

Now, onto those who have made the effort, worked hard at school, college and university, that they are less likely to find employment is likely due to racism in companies. They're comparing pretty much like for like, ie white person with a degree to black person with a degree.
However that's not the police, that's members of the general public who are interviewing people.

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:46
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328785)
The majority of people who commit crimes are poor right?
If a large proportion of the black community are poor, then there is likely to be a large group of poor black people committing crimes.
It's logical.
Social mobility in this country is at an all time low, so if your parents are poor and poorly educated, then you're likely to also be poor and poorly educated, making it harder for you to find a well paid job.
When people are poor, especially the youth, they feel abandoned by society so form gangs. Their gang becomes their only point of respect, everyone and everything outside the gang is viewed as having abandoned them (remember these are poorly educated gang members who are unaware of the help that is available or the reality of life) and so have no problem committing crimes to get by.
Same thing happens with white or asian groups who feel abandoned by society.

In an area where there is a larger proportion of poor blacks than poor whites or asians, then I would expect more blacks to commit crime than any other groups.
Likewise, in an area where there is a larger proprotion of poor whites than other groups, I'd expect most crime to be committed by whites.
How is that racist?

Now, onto those who have made the effort, worked hard at school, college and university, that they are less likely to find employment is likely due to racism in companies. They're comparing pretty much like for like, ie white person with a degree to black person with a degree.
However that's not the police, that's members of the general public who are interviewing people.
That is a totally different situation totally and should be addressed

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:46
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328783)
again I say just cuz someone is arrested as a suspect but is not charged does not ness make it a waste of time. You cant have a system where the law can not take action just in case it upsets a race. Often someone who has commited such crimes in the past looks like a good possible suspect. I have no problem with him being pulled in for questioning. Often this will be done without arrest if the guy/gal plays the game but if they refuse to help often an arrest is needed. I personally do not have a problem with this. I doubt the police arrest many people for absolutely no reason at all
Hence why I've also said about it being dispropotionate.
If most crimes in the area are due to black people, then you'd expect a high release rate than with other groups, however if the difference between the black release rate and other groups is substantial, that suggests that the police are bringing in loads of extra black people then letting them go.
That should be investigated to find out if it is legitimate or if it is harassment.

Saaf_laandon_mo 15-06-2007 09:46
Re: still racist
 
I have quiet a few black and asian friends who have been stopped/pulled over whilst driving for no apparent reason.

I have myself, been stopped in a van in Islington. When I asked the reason I was told there had been a burgulary in the nearby area. This was not a road block, there were other vans on the road, but as far as I could see I was the only one stopped. I did not make an issue out of it as I just wanted to be on my way.

I have also been pulled over, once in Dundee, I was driving a Mercedes 500 SL at the time, and numerous times in London whilst driving prestige/sports cars (all owned by me and legal eg MOT, and Tax present)

I also have a friend who is an officer on the London British Transport police. From what he tells me he approaches more black youngsters than white because he things they look more like trouble.

I live in South London and am of asian appearance. No criminal record, no cautions, no previous arrests etc etc

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:48
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328787)
That is a totally different situation totally and should be addressed
:clap:

Pia 15-06-2007 09:50
Re: still racist
 
It's all a bit tedious hearing cries of racism all over the news all the time.

My 4 year old son came home from nursery yesterday singing "Baa baa white sheep" what the hell is that about... he's 4, the traditional nursery rhyme is baa baa black sheep, why is it alright to sing white, i'm white, i might find that offensive?:rolleyes: But of course all of a sudden children's rhymes are changed because of course, that will stop the racist bullying in the playground.
And that wouldn't be the racial divide caused by stupid reports like this?!
IMO it's this sort of article which prmotes racism, has nobody thought that maybe, just maybe more black people needed arresting??:shrug:

Xaccers 15-06-2007 09:53
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia (Post 34328794)
It's all a bit tedious hearing cries of racism all over the news all the time.

My 4 year old son came home from nursery yesterday singing "Baa baa white sheep" what the hell is that about... he's 4, the traditional nursery rhyme is baa baa black sheep, why is it alright to sing white, i'm white, i might find that offensive?:rolleyes: But of course all of a sudden children's rhymes are changed because of course, that will stop the racist bullying in the playground.
And that wouldn't be the racial divide caused by stupid reports like this?!
IMO it's this sort of article which prmotes racism, has nobody thought that maybe, just maybe more black people needed arresting??:shrug:
Ask your nursery staff why. If they say it's so that blacks aren't offended, ask them who they consulted with in the black community to find out if they were offended or not, ask for copies of the complaints from blacks regarding this.
If they can't provide them (which of course they can't) demand they stop being so racist by patronising blacks and start reciting the rhyme properly.
Explain to them that it's people like them which cause racial tension.

zing_deleted 15-06-2007 09:53
Re: still racist
 
I personally think there is a persecution complex floating around all ethnic groups. If anything happens its always because of race. Not because they were seen leaving a crack house or 6 months ago they kicked some poor chaps head in. Cry race hate just to get your own way is just plain wrong and imo as racist as someone calling someone names.

The issue of racial discrimination in the work place and respectable areas of life should not be tolerated full stop but again this needs ot be done carefully. There are cases where someone fails to get a job and then says its cuz of race but this has no foundation at all. Its always going to hard to judge when something is racist or not as lets face it the excuse of race has been abused by those the race laws are there to protect

Stuart 15-06-2007 10:00
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34328770)
wow looks like i was wrong reading some of the posts, so your saying blacks commit more crime than whites then? or are u saying "i'm not racist but"?

http://193.113.211.175/duty/duty_facts.html

no its racism, no buts.
Read the article you linked to. They are saying
Quote:
LONDON (Reuters) - Discrimination is in part responsible for the disproportionate number of young black people going through the criminal justice system, a group of influential politicians said on Friday.
So, part of the problem is racism.

It is possible that the figures upon which they have formed their conclusions are slightly skewed by the fact that a lot of ethnic minorities (of all colours) live in deprived areas. There is often more crime in deprived areas (which may or may not be commited by Ethnic minorities, and may or may not be racially motivated). If an area is predominantly one colour, then it is more likely that someone of that colour will be picked up for crimes.

Also, it's worth noting that the CRE appear to be totally ignoring the fact that everyone in a deprived area will often get worse service, not just the ethnic minorities. If this is the case, then the CRE itself is being racist.

I am not saying Racism doesn't exist in our justice system. The people in our justice system are just that - people. It is an unfortunate fact that some will be racist. Where people are convicted and get a punishment just because of the colour and/or race, that is bad, and should be stamped out. If they did commit the crime, then, TBH, whatever their race and/or colour, they deserve punishment. The police and courts shouldn't treat them any differently because they are black, brown or any other colour.

BTW, I geniunely am not racist. While I try and respect different beliefs, I personally don't see that someone's colour or race should be an issue at all.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328783)
again I say just cuz someone is arrested as a suspect but is not charged does not ness make it a waste of time. You cant have a system where the law can not take action just in case it upsets a race.
Good point.

Xaccers 15-06-2007 10:02
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328799)
I personally think there is a persecution complex floating around all ethnic groups. If anything happens its always because of race. Not because they were seen leaving a crack house or 6 months ago they kicked some poor chaps head in. Cry race hate just to get your own way is just plain wrong and imo as racist as someone calling someone names.
The thing is, it's not those who have been arrested/stopped and searched who wrote the report, nor is it from interviews with those arrested/stopped and searched, it's from the police records themselves.
Mustn't forget that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinglebarb
The issue of racial discrimination in the work place and respectable areas of life should not be tolerated full stop but again this needs ot be done carefully. There are cases where someone fails to get a job and then says its cuz of race but this has no foundation at all. Its always going to hard to judge when something is racist or not as lets face it the excuse of race has been abused by those the race laws are there to protect
Again, that report is using figures not anecdotal evidence, comparing employment status of graduates who are white with graduates who are black.
Unless the A levels or degrees black students do are prodominantly ones that employers scoff at such as media studies or Klingon, then without racism there should be equal chance of someone getting employment.
The fact there is a discrepency between blacks and other groups suggests that race plays a role and they are being discriminated against, which I totally agree with you on, should be stamped out (though not via "positive" discrimination)

dcclanuk 15-06-2007 10:07
Re: still racist
 
My mate is Muslim, and twice now he has been stopped and searched by the police!

Once at Euston Station. Once at Kings Cross Station!

He is 5ft 5 inches tall ish. Just coz he has a wire coming out of his bag into his coat, [his ARCHOS mp3 player thingy], it might look a bit dodgy!

My other friends [non-muslim] were with him. Does that mean the police are now racist towards muslims too?

LET THE POLICE FRIGGING DO THEIR JOB!

Escapee 15-06-2007 10:27
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34328799)
I personally think there is a persecution complex floating around all ethnic groups. If anything happens its always because of race. Not because they were seen leaving a crack house or 6 months ago they kicked some poor chaps head in. Cry race hate just to get your own way is just plain wrong and imo as racist as someone calling someone names.

The issue of racial discrimination in the work place and respectable areas of life should not be tolerated full stop but again this needs ot be done carefully. There are cases where someone fails to get a job and then says its cuz of race but this has no foundation at all. Its always going to hard to judge when something is racist or not as lets face it the excuse of race has been abused by those the race laws are there to protect
Discrimination in the workplace does annoy me, I went to HR and spoke out in my last place of employment about it.

A guy who had been working for the company for years had serious stress problems, he had been off work for 6 months and returned. He made a mistake coming back to work full time and was finding it very difficult and wanted to work a 3 day week to see how he got on, and gradually increase his hours. The HR department refused to budge because they said it would make him a 'special case' with changes to his contract that others could also expect.

I pointed out the Asian Pakistani who would only work a maximum of 30 hours a week, and the reply was 'Thats different, its for religious reasons' although I knew it had nothing to do with religious reasons.

The bottom line is society is now controlled by the pc brigade and are afraid to treat everyone the same, unfortunately 'some' asians and blacks play on this situation whilst the rest get on with life.

I was also in a car a few years ago with a black woman who had been drinking wine, in fact the bottle was rolling around on the passenger side. We got stopped and she started ranting at him because he was being racist stopping her and not all the other motorists, she was threatening to report him for racial harrasment and all sorts. The officer just let her on her way, of course stopping her had nothing to do with her dangerous driving it was all about her being black wasn't it !

Saaf_laandon_mo 15-06-2007 10:35
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34328816)
I was also in a car a few years ago with a black woman who had been drinking wine, in fact the bottle was rolling around on the passenger side. We got stopped and she started ranting at him because he was being racist stopping her and not all the other motorists, she was threatening to report him for racial harrasment and all sorts. The officer just let her on her way, of course stopping her had nothing to do with her dangerous driving it was all about her being black wasn't it !
You're saying that the car you were in was being driven dangerously by a woman who was drunk, and the officer just let you go?

I find that extremely hard to believe (if thats what you are saying).

Stuart 15-06-2007 10:36
Re: still racist
 
The problem is that for society to be truly integrated, everyone needs to make compromises.

Xaccers 15-06-2007 10:53
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34328816)
I was also in a car a few years ago with a black woman who had been drinking wine, in fact the bottle was rolling around on the passenger side. We got stopped and she started ranting at him because he was being racist stopping her and not all the other motorists, she was threatening to report him for racial harrasment and all sorts. The officer just let her on her way, of course stopping her had nothing to do with her dangerous driving it was all about her being black wasn't it !
How much had you been drinking in order to get into a car and remain in the car while she was driving dangerously and drunk?

You know, I'd live to hear about this religious reason for an Asian Pakistani to only work 30 hours.

dcclanuk 15-06-2007 11:00
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328829)
How much had you been drinking in order to get into a car and remain in the car while she was driving dangerously and drunk?

You know, I'd live to hear about this religious reason for an Asian Pakistani to only work 30 hours.
As an ASIAN [indian], I know there is certainly NOTHING in the religious books telling u how much u should work!

Heck, us indians [asians] are known for working as much as possible!
There is even a joke about it.. it is NOT RACIST IN MY EYES, if it is to u, please reply back.

It goes like this....

xxxx person is indian, xxxxx person is indian, but GOD is not indian... why?
Because what type of indian doesnt work on a Sunday! [u know god rested on sunday while creating the world]

i couldnt remember the joke exactly, but u can get the jist of what it is trying to say...

Saaf_laandon_mo 15-06-2007 11:02
Re: still racist
 
thats out of goodness Gracious Me isnt it.......

I work a 40 hour week, Im a lazy indian!

superbiatch 15-06-2007 11:08
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcclanuk (Post 34328835)
As an ASIAN [indian], I know there is certainly NOTHING in the religious books telling u how much u should work!

Heck, us indians [asians] are known for working as much as possible!
There is even a joke about it.. it is NOT RACIST IN MY EYES, if it is to u, please reply back.

It goes like this....

xxxx person is indian, xxxxx person is indian, but GOD is not indian... why?
Because what type of indian doesnt work on a Sunday! [u know god rested on sunday while creating the world]

i couldnt remember the joke exactly, but u can get the jist of what it is trying to say...
I think some have used their religion in a negative way and this has unfortunately tarred the rest with the same brush in some cases.

For instance my ex used to work in a factory where he worked with muslims (not 100% about that so don't shoot me!). He mentioned they disappeared so many times a day to pull out their prayer mats and pray, nothing wrong with that provided everyone is entitled to the same. The bit that got me was when their religion didn't allow them to drink, smoke or gamble (or so i was told) and they accompanied my ex and the rest of the company to a day at the races, drinking and smoking :dozey:

punky 15-06-2007 11:19
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328829)
How much had you been drinking in order to get into a car and remain in the car while she was driving dangerously and drunk?

You know, I'd live to hear about this religious reason for an Asian Pakistani to only work 30 hours.

I do know of a few Muslims that get time off for prayer sessions, particularly on Friday. I don't know how much, but its not just Fridays for some. I do know of some Muslims that don't take any though.

Stuart 15-06-2007 11:20
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbiatch (Post 34328838)
I think some have used their religion in a negative way and this has unfortunately tarred the rest with the same brush in some cases.

For instance my ex used to work in a factory where he worked with muslims (not 100% about that so don't shoot me!). He mentioned they disappeared so many times a day to pull out their prayer mats and pray, nothing wrong with that provided everyone is entitled to the same. The bit that got me was when their religion didn't allow them to drink, smoke or gamble (or so i was told) and they accompanied my ex and the rest of the company to a day at the races, drinking and smoking :dozey:
This reminds me of something that happens where I work.

A couple of years back, the muslim students used to congregate at the bottom of one of the fireescapes to pray. If one or two did this, it would not be a problem. However, they frequently had more than 20 people. Thus, it was a major safety hazard (the fire exit was essentially blocked while they were praying).

Not one asked if the Uni would provide anywhere, and they complained when asked by the building's safety officer to move.

Eventually, they did ask, and a room was booked for them, which they still use. Although when they are washing their feet, they still leave all the toilets in a state.

Saaf_laandon_mo 15-06-2007 11:20
Re: still racist
 
Just a couple of pointers on muslims praying at work.....

Assuming a muslim works a 9 to 5 day. In winter they would pray 3 of the 5 prayers at work(when the days are shorter).

In summer (longer days) then its likely that they would pray a maximum of 2 prayers at work, and then from June July onwards only one. (i.e the afternoon prayer)

Most companies I work for have a multifaith prayer room or quiet room. All the muslims I know who pray at work are not taking breaks all day, or running off at all times of the day to prayer. The afternoon and late afternoon prayers would take a maximum of 5 mins each, and one can definately vbe offered during a lunch break.

Whenever I have prayed at work it has come out of my own time, it doesnt effect my hours worked and thats how it is with all other muslims I know that choose to pray 5 times a day (or at work).

If we compare this to smoking at work, I see a lot of smokers taking adhoc breaks when ever they want. a couple of my colleagues who smoke must take at least 4 5min smoking breaks a day, they also take their hour lunh break and go home on time.

I dont think praying at work is quite the problem (in terms of time) that people seem to mention it is.

superbiatch 15-06-2007 11:24
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34328848)
I dont think praying at work is quite the problem (in terms of time) that people seem to mention it is.
This is going back at least five years ago, maybe these particular muslims were in fact playing on the naivety of the management who were probably not educated enough to challenge them.

Saaf_laandon_mo 15-06-2007 11:24
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin (Post 34328843)
I do know of a few Muslims that get time off for prayer sessions, particularly on Friday. I don't know how much, but its not just Fridays for some. I do know of some Muslims that don't take any though.
I would say that most muslims who go for prayers on Friday are actually doing so in their lunch time/own time, or taking the time that would have been given for lunch.

Or are you saying that they take a lunch break (say an hour) and then go for their Friday prayers (say another 45min to 1 hour)

Paul 15-06-2007 11:29
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34328732)
this has to stop.
What has to stop exactly ?

Stuart 15-06-2007 11:29
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34328848)

Most companies I work for have a multifaith prayer room or quiet room. All the muslims I know who pray at work are not taking breaks all day, or running off at all times of the day to prayer. The afternoon and late afternoon prayers would take a maximum of 5 mins each, and one can definately vbe offered during a lunch break.
Well, on our campus we actually have a chapel (I do mean a chapel - it's even available for weddings) that happily accepts people of ALL faiths for prayer. It may be because it is a chapel and not a standard room, but the Muslims refused to use it.

Jules 15-06-2007 11:35
Re: still racist
 
There will always be racism, be it directed at blacks, whites or any other creed/cast/colour sadly it is just the way the world is and I am sorry but political correctness just makes things worse and breeds resentment!

Escapee 15-06-2007 11:37
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328829)
How much had you been drinking in order to get into a car and remain in the car while she was driving dangerously and drunk?

You know, I'd live to hear about this religious reason for an Asian Pakistani to only work 30 hours.
I had drunk a few myself, and yes it was a silly thing to do. She said she was fine to drive and to be honest I didn't know just how much she had been drinking. Then add to that how bad her driving was when she was sober I needed a drink to get in the car with her, I did always wonder if she had a valid driving licence.

The religious reasons were very sketchy for this Pakistani, I tried to make conversation with both pakistani's we had there but it was hard work. I did learn that they were a large family living in a big house in the Cheltenham area, and that every member of the family had to put their money into one central pot. He got a weekly allowance back and I have no idea what happened to the rest, he refused to work any overtime and he did tell me it was because he would have no financial gain.

He had been a contractor with the company for about 3 years earning around £30-40 an hour and drove an old battered C reg (1985) Nissan Micra. It appeared that he didn't have 2 pennies to rub together though.

The Indian guys were completely different, the mention of overtime and they were in all weekend. They were always first out of their chair if there was any physical/lifting work unlike the pakistani's. The Indians never discussed religion and would sit around and chat with the group at lunchtime, I am still in contact via email with one of the Indian guys because he has been asking me about jobs in the company I currently work for. The pakistani's would go off and sit in one of their cars at lunchtime, they seemed to do everything to be seperate from the rest of the group.

So I think the bottom line is religion was just a feeble excuse, unless their religion says they have to pool all their money and live like a pauper.

punky 15-06-2007 11:42
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34328853)
I would say that most muslims who go for prayers on Friday are actually doing so in their lunch time/own time, or taking the time that would have been given for lunch.

Or are you saying that they take a lunch break (say an hour) and then go for their Friday prayers (say another 45min to 1 hour)
First i'm not a foremost expert on this, but it has cropped up before once or twice.

Your assuming they want to worship in their workplace. Most I have asked about this prefer to travel to their mosque. You have to factor in travel from and to work. as you know in London even short journeys can take time. And then on top of that you have the prayers and the extra time around that (washing, traffic leaving mosque, etc).

I dare say they do roll prayers into lunch as the times coincide, however considering lunch is normally only 45-60 mins, and prayers last that long, they are bound to overshoot. And then you say sometimes its more than once a day, and supplemental breaks are normally only 15 mins. AFAIK its unpaid so its no different from choosing to work part-time. I'm guessing unlike Escapee's mate these issues were agreed prior to signing their contract.

rogerdraig 15-06-2007 12:32
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin (Post 34328768)
I think people will suprised to note that its actually as a result of intelligence lead policing, than racism.

For example. Someone is mugged. They get a description of a young black man with a black jacket. Police are going to stop and search anyone fitting that description, looking for her possessions.

Because descriptions are typically vague, it does hit ethnic groups harder, as they are less distinguishing features (for example, white people normally have variying hair colours, so reduces the amount of people that would be needed to stop and search).

intelligence lead policing ROFL no definitely not its more down to where stop and search is mostly done

if all the figures were released properly you will find this is more down to where you are not what you are also age is a big factor in this too

if you stay away from the town center at night and or any club areas and from any the less well off areas of where ever you live and you not under 20 the likely hood of you being stopped and search almost dissapears

jkat 15-06-2007 12:45
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 34328856)
What has to stop exactly ?
racism, direct or indirect, intended or unintended.

Xaccers 15-06-2007 12:47
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34328923)
racism, direct or indirect, intended or unintended.
In your opinion, in an area with a large black community, is stopping more black people than white people racist?

dev 15-06-2007 12:53
Re: still racist
 
the numbers stopped and searched are irrelevant, the only numbers that will matter are those that are wrongly stopped and searched, ie the police had no reason to stop/search them. If more black people commit crimes*, it is not racist to arrest them all now is it?

* i'm not saying they do, totally hypothetical situation

Saaf_laandon_mo 15-06-2007 13:00
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin (Post 34328866)
First i'm not a foremost expert on this, but it has cropped up before once or twice.

Your assuming they want to worship in their workplace. Most I have asked about this prefer to travel to their mosque. You have to factor in travel from and to work. as you know in London even short journeys can take time. And then on top of that you have the prayers and the extra time around that (washing, traffic leaving mosque, etc).

I dare say they do roll prayers into lunch as the times coincide, however considering lunch is normally only 45-60 mins, and prayers last that long, they are bound to overshoot. And then you say sometimes its more than once a day, and supplemental breaks are normally only 15 mins. AFAIK its unpaid so its no different from choosing to work part-time. I'm guessing unlike Escapee's mate these issues were agreed prior to signing their contract.
Friday prayers should be said in congregation in the mosque, other than a Friday they dont have to be. (afternoon prayers). Everywhere I have worked (Aberdeen, Brentwood, Central London, Outer London) there has been a mosque within sufficient distance to mean that the longest time Ive taken for Friday prayers is an hour & 10 mins from my desk, to the mosque and back again. Thats going back 7 years.

Of course there are mosques which might make it take longer, I dont say Ive worked everywhere in the UK, but everyone I know makes up the time spent by working extra during the week (If its over your standard lunch).

All bosses I have worked for have had no issues regarding Friday prayers.


If I employed a muslim who told me he had to offer his prayers at a mosque and it took him an hour each time, I'd make a room available for him to prayer in and tell him he can use that. Its not against Islam to prayer in a room, as long as you're clean and the room you are in clean then its ook. I would not stop him going to the mosque for Friday prayers.

I have yet to work with muslims who take more than one 1 hour break a day to go and prayer in a mosque.

punky 15-06-2007 13:02
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34328940)
Friday prayers should be said in congregation in the mosque, other than a Friday they dont have to be. (afternoon prayers). Everywhere I have worked (Aberdeen, Brentwood, Central London, Outer London) there has been a mosque within sufficient distance to mean that the longest time Ive taken for Friday prayers is an hour & 10 mins from my desk, to the mosque and back again. Thats going back 7 years.

Of course there are mosques which might make it take longer, I dont say Ive worked everywhere in the UK, but everyone I know makes up the time spent by working extra during the week (If its over your standard lunch).

All bosses I have worked for have had no issues regarding Friday prayers.


If I employed a muslim who told me he had to offer his prayers at a mosque and it took him an hour each time, I'd make a room available for him to prayer in and tell him he can use that. Its not against Islam to prayer in a room, as long as you're clean and the room you are in clean then its ook. I would not stop him going to the mosque for Friday prayers.

I have yet to work with muslims who take more than one 1 hour break a day to go and prayer in a mosque.
Good post :tu:

jkat 15-06-2007 14:50
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328928)
In your opinion, in an area with a large black community, is stopping more black people than white people racist?
so they stop as many white people in a white area do they?

Stuart 15-06-2007 15:12
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34329004)
so they stop as many white people in a white area do they?
I believe that Xaccers is making the point that in an area where there are more black people than white, a black person is more likely to be stopped than a white person..

Maggy 15-06-2007 15:12
Re: still racist
 
Interesting reading and a sensible debate thus far. :clap:

The article did say that discrimination by police is only part of the problem..another reason why black youth are perhaps over represented in the figures could be due to

Quote:
A web of disadvantages contributes to the situation with the primary cause being social exclusion, caused by under achievement in school, deprivation, poor housing, lack of father involvement and other negative influences in the media and popular culture.
So we need a two fold set of measures to address this problem.Try to make sure that stop and search is applied fairly to all and that police are made to be a little more thoughtful about whom and why they stop and search and that we really try to deal with the other contributory issues instead of shrugging our shoulders and saying in a knee jerk reaction that the black community are being perhaps a bit over sensitive about racism because they feel a certain sense of unfairness about the issue.

Derek 15-06-2007 15:29
Re: still racist
 
Hmmm,

I have never stopped and searched a black person. A few asians but no blacks. I have stopped and searched literally hundreds of white people, most of whom adhere strictly to the skag-fast diet.

Funnily enough most of the crimes in the area I work (Just outside Glasgow, one of the most deprived in Scotland, even Cabletel refused to cable the place as they'd probably have nicked the copper from the cables) are committed by the pale, skinny, white intravenous drug user and maybe I'm stereotyping but given a choice between stop searching a couple of junkies and an old grannie I'll take the junkie option every time.

Maybe I'm just biased coz I don't like them. ;)

I have been accused of being a dirty orange *bleep* or a dirty fenian *bleep* but I suppose thats just the West of Scotland mentality.

The Police aren't racist for going after a certain group if they are responsible for more crimes in an area. It's common sense policing.
If they want to wonder why certain groups are more likely to be involved in crime thats a different debate altogether.

Xaccers 15-06-2007 15:49
Re: still racist
 
You're saying that whites should be stopped and searched more than any other group in your area?
Tsk that's sooooo racist ;)

Shaun 15-06-2007 17:25
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34328753)
I wonder if it's geographical. In areas with a higher black population, surely the number of searches will rise proportionally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
To determin any racism behind it, they need to investigate what proportion of people stopped are then arrested, and how many of those arrested are actually charged and end up in court.
I think you need to look more carefully at all the arrests and the circumstances that are involved not just the area of the arrest.

The demeanor of the person to the offices, the cultural behaviour of the people searched. Perceived racism by the person being questioned leading to different behaviour to what they possibly would have had if the didn't perceived the police as being racist.

I've seen cases on TV where officers have just asked passing questions to black men (predominantly) which as resulted in a load of verbal. This in turn has made the officers more interested the the men than they should have been. This person has done nothing wrong apart from had a bad attitude but the officers don't know that. Next time an officer asks them a question they feel even more aggrieved and harassed and it's a vicious circle. Saying that if you have nothing better to do than stand about the streets all night in a residential area like some (of all colours and creeds) then you must expect to be questioned about what you're up to

There was a good example on Traffic cops this week. :(

Maybe both parties need to look at their behaviour?:confused:

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34328928)
In your opinion, in an area with a large black community, is stopping more black people than white people racist?
I really think it's more complicated than looking at the population ratios.

When in Leicester city centre I've not seen gangs of white men* hanging about the streets although I know there must be some living there. I do see gangs (for want of a better word) of Asian men (well 15 to 25) of a night. I know there are lots of white men living here, I'm one of them but I don't hang about the streets.

Where am I more likely to be stopped and searched? In the street at 11pm or sitting at home reading CF?

*like I see in other area's of Leicestershire

jkat 15-06-2007 18:02
Re: still racist
 
u got some good points there shaun!:tu: i was discussing this today with my wife, about someones perception of a different culture (youth culture, street culture). if for example jamaicans who have suffered racism since the 50's, they are going to be pretty p***ed at being stopped and searched.

nicke261192 15-06-2007 19:19
Re: still racist
 
I dont think it is right to search black people there are a few in my school who are very nice and kind but whenever i am walking home i go past a muslim school where i find most of the parents very rude and they nudge past you. Im not being racist but it seems the majority of them are not nice

homealone 15-06-2007 20:21
Re: still racist
 
I think that the police should search anyone they genuinely believe may be involved in, or equipped for, crime. That, in my opinion, should be the only criterion.

Whether the suspect is Black, Asian, Oriental, Caucasian or Mixed should not make any difference - there actually are bad examples of each racial group present in society, and dealing with that should ignore their racial background & just focus on the effect of their behaviour, imo.

Of course, there are a vast majority of people who are good, whatever their racial background, and I hope they can continue to treat each other with mutual respect. :tu:

It would be a good thing if the Police were allowed to deal with things without the onus of 'performance monitoring', in my opinion, as I cannot help thinking this tends to encourage dealing with the symptoms, rather than the causes, of crime ???

Womble 15-06-2007 21:09
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34328923)
racism, direct or indirect, intended or unintended.
Does that include so-called positive racism??

Another bleeding heart thread I see, It would interesting to see how many stopped where carrying drugs/knives etc.
Funny how they always moan about the police, if they where so well behaved there wouldn't be any need for operation Trident would there!!

My good friend worked in Brixton nick as a civvy doing the admin. He say "Blacks" made up 70% of crime in that area. Any number of the bleeding hearts on here will tell you that they only make up 5% of the population. Doesn't quite add up does it?

Maggy 15-06-2007 21:30
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble (Post 34329212)
Does that include so-called positive racism??

Another bleeding heart thread I see, It would interesting to see how many stopped where carrying drugs/knives etc.
Funny how they always moan about the police, if they where so well behaved there wouldn't be any need for operation Trident would there!!

My good friend worked in Brixton nick as a civvy doing the admin. He say "Blacks" made up 70% of crime in that area. Any number of the bleeding hearts on here will tell you that they only make up 5% of the population. Doesn't quite add up does it?

Ah so those of us who think everyone should be treated the same regardless of colour or creed or ethnic origin are bleeding hearts.Funnily enough I thought I was a democrat believing in democracy and equality for all, which I'm very proud of.Anyone know the term for those who don't believe in democracy and equality for all? :)

homealone 15-06-2007 21:46
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble (Post 34329212)
Does that include so-called positive racism??

Another bleeding heart thread I see, It would interesting to see how many stopped where carrying drugs/knives etc.
Funny how they always moan about the police, if they where so well behaved there wouldn't be any need for operation Trident would there!!

My good friend worked in Brixton nick as a civvy doing the admin. He say "Blacks" made up 70% of crime in that area. Any number of the bleeding hearts on here will tell you that they only make up 5% of the population. Doesn't quite add up does it?
well the last time I visited Brixton market there were an awful lot of stalls that were Afro/Caribbean, and a lot of people would go there, because of that, similarly Deptford High St....

- what where the figures for Camberwell & Peckham?

Womble 15-06-2007 21:54
Re: still racist
 
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/73257.html

An interesting piece
Quote:
The Commission on Integration and Cohesion found that 68 percent of respondents thought there were "too many migrants in Britain," and 47 percent of Asians and 45 percent of black respondents shared the view. Also, 56 percent of people said they thought that immigrants, asylum seekers and refugees get priority in housing, health services and education.
---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34329225)
Ah so those of us who think everyone should be treated the same regardless of colour or creed or ethnic origin are bleeding hearts.
Not at all, I also believe that.
I have issue with the level of crime in the black community, and it annoys me when they moan when they get nicked.

Xaccers 15-06-2007 22:42
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble (Post 34329239)
Indeed, it shows just how ignorant people are with regards to immigration and asylum. I guess we have the tabloids to thank for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble
Not at all, I also believe that.
I have issue with the level of crime in the black community, and it annoys me when they moan when they get nicked.
You do realise the report linked to in the original post wasn't made by blacks moaning they got nicked or stopped and searched right don't you?

Womble 15-06-2007 23:46
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34329282)
Indeed, it shows just how ignorant people are with regards to immigration and asylum. I guess we have the tabloids to thank for that..
I think it shows, that even "established" immigrants are alarmed at the level of immigration at present. My god everywhere I go is awash with bloody Poles and assorted eastern euros


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34329282)
You do realise the report linked to in the original post wasn't made by blacks moaning they got nicked or stopped and searched right don't you?
Quote:
Black people are six times more likely to be subjected to stop-and-search operations than other ethnic groups and nearly twice as likely to enter the CJS as a result, the Home Affairs Committee found.
Thats because they are 6 times more likely to be carrying drugs knives etc. So whats everyones point?

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 00:23
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble (Post 34329330)
Thats because they are 6 times more likely to be carrying drugs knives etc.
Where's your source for that from?

RizzyKing 16-06-2007 00:48
Re: still racist
 
To be perfectly honest i am sick and tired of hearing this "racism" crap all the time. Why is it racist to stop and search i have been stopped and searched i didn't have a problem with it in fact was happy to help the police have a hard enough job to do without being stuck with this sort of rubbish. Also i find it a bit of a laugh when "ethnic minorities" complain of racism from the white population and yet in any professional field there is a serperate organisation for blacks (such as the black police officers federation or whatever it is called). I am all for integration and all getting along but organisations that exist to highlight racism in my opinion create more hassle then they resolve.

jkat 16-06-2007 07:19
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34329349)
To be perfectly honest i am sick and tired of hearing this "racism" crap all the time. Why is it racist to stop and search i have been stopped and searched i didn't have a problem with it in fact was happy to help the police have a hard enough job to do without being stuck with this sort of rubbish. Also i find it a bit of a laugh when "ethnic minorities" complain of racism from the white population and yet in any professional field there is a serperate organisation for blacks (such as the black police officers federation or whatever it is called). I am all for integration and all getting along but organisations that exist to highlight racism in my opinion create more hassle then they resolve.
so there is no such thing as racism?
and what hassle is that?

Xaccers 16-06-2007 09:05
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble (Post 34329330)
I think it shows, that even "established" immigrants are alarmed at the level of immigration at present.
Yes, alarmed because of their ignorance of the situation. The sort of people who think that if nothing is done, we'll have a million new people every leap year for ever and ever until the country is so full people start falling off the white cliffs of Dover :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble
My god everywhere I go is awash with bloody Poles and assorted eastern euros
Just think of what work wouldn't be done if they weren't here.
Good isn't it? :tu:

TheDaddy 16-06-2007 09:21
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34329428)
Just think of what work wouldn't be done if they weren't here.
Good isn't it? :tu:
Yep it's fantastic, we import workers when there are over a million people sitting on the dole :td:

dev 16-06-2007 10:05
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34329402)
so there is no such thing as racism?
and what hassle is that?
in the case of stop n search, probably no. just because a black person is stopped doesn't mean it was because of their colour!

would you call setting targets to have minimum levels of black people working in higher paid jobs racist? i know i would, reason: race is being used to distinguish people.

jkat 16-06-2007 10:36
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dev (Post 34329457)
would you call setting targets to have minimum levels of black people working in higher paid jobs racist? i know i would, reason: race is being used to distinguish people.
no i would call that putting things right

dev 16-06-2007 10:45
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkat (Post 34329474)
no i would call that putting things right
so you say giving people jobs based on skin colour right? :confused:

JackB 16-06-2007 10:52
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dev (Post 34329477)
so you say giving people jobs based on skin colour right? :confused:
I'd call it racist but it happens anyway. It seems the goverment is promoting the same thing for political parties now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nrural414.xml

Ramrod 16-06-2007 11:10
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicke261192 (Post 34329171)
I dont think it is right to search black people there are a few in my school who are very nice and kind but whenever i am walking home i go past a muslim school where i find most of the parents very rude and they nudge past you. Im not being racist but it seems the majority of them are not nice
I have found the opposite to be true. The muslim and other darker skinned children and parents at our kids schools are very nice. In fact, only the white kids/parents exhibit anti-social and racist traits. :shrug:

Pia 16-06-2007 11:15
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329344)
Where's your source for that from?
I think they said it on the ITV news yesterday lunchtime, that's where i heard that from anyway, not sure about the poster.

Escapee 16-06-2007 11:52
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dev (Post 34329457)
would you call setting targets to have minimum levels of black people working in higher paid jobs racist? i know i would, reason: race is being used to distinguish people.
I would call that racist, a job should be offered to a person based on the persons qualifications, motivation, ability to do the job and references. It is so easy (and I have seen it with a black person) for an employee to claim they were not given promotion due to their skin colour. In the one experience I have of such a complaint it was due to the woman being lazy and useless, and had nothing to do with her skin colour at all.

If groups or individuals in the workplace segregate themselves by race or religion how can they be treated the same as everyone else. Just because I get along with people in the workplace and muck in on a professional basis, does not mean I agree with their views, religious or moral beliefs.

Its all about making the effort, and when I make the effort and it fails, I do as they want. ie. treat them differently

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 11:56
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pia (Post 34329494)
I think they said it on the ITV news yesterday lunchtime, that's where i heard that from anyway, not sure about the poster.
I think you'll find they said six times more likely to be stopped and searched, not six times more likely to be carrying drugs and knives. There's a very distinct difference.

Xaccers 16-06-2007 11:58
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34329434)
Yep it's fantastic, we import workers when there are over a million people sitting on the dole :td:
And the work gets done, taxes get paid, rather than taxes just paid out and the work not being done.


I'm sure we've had the discussion about how there's no such thing as positive discrimination before.
There is only discrimination.
If it is wrong to discriminate against a black or asian person, then it is wrong to discriminate against a white person.

Why should a company have to have set proportions of workers from different ethnic backgrounds if it's unrelated to their business?
Why should a white person who's perfect for the role be turned down in favour of someone of a different ethnic background and not up to scratch (not because of their race but because they aren't as skilled) simply to balance the ethnic groups in the company?

willie 16-06-2007 12:24
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Why should a white person who's perfect for the role be turned down in favour of someone of a different ethnic background and not up to scratch (not because of their race but because they aren't as skilled) simply to balance the ethnic groups in the company?
Well said :tu:

Would then the person who was better qualified yet turned down simply because of his/her ethnic origins have a case of racial discrimination?

Escapee 16-06-2007 12:33
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie (Post 34329531)
Well said :tu:

Would then the person who was better qualified yet turned down simply because of his/her ethnic origins have a case of racial discrimination?

Not if they were white!

I doubt very much if that would be taken seriously, I wonder if there are any statistics to show how many white people have tried to claim for racial discrimination and how many were successful.

All cases should be taken seriously, but a white person of UK origin claiming racial discrimination would be taken about as seriously as a man claiming sexual harrassment from a woman in the workplace.

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 12:35
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie (Post 34329531)
Well said :tu:

Would then the person who was better qualified yet turned down simply because of his/her ethnic origins have a case of racial discrimination?
Proving racial discrimination in employment recruitment practices isn't, if you'll excuse the pun, that black and white.

zing_deleted 16-06-2007 12:49
Re: still racist
 
Thats prob because people often cry discrimination if they dont get their own way . Of course they only didnt get the job etc because of the colour of the skin it couldnt be any other reason could it ;)

What about the white man who doesnt get a job he is best suited to cuz the employer has figures to meet to make sure they dont get seen as prejudiced?

Escapee 16-06-2007 13:01
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329541)
Proving racial discrimination in employment recruitment practices isn't, if you'll excuse the pun, that black and white.
I do or should I say did, know a company in Cardiff about 4/5 years ago that would only employ people of Pakistani origin. I knew that at the time because it was a very lucrative job that my ex-girlfriends next door neighbour worked for.

I had been made redundant and fancied something temporary during the bad weather to push my planned 6 months sabatical until the nicer weather. I asked the neighbour who politely pointed out that they only employed people of Pakistani origin, I later discovered that this was in fact true and no-one else in that line of business ever bothered to ask that company about a job if they were not of Pakistani origin.

There are lots of discriminating organisations about, if you were to set up something advertised as only assisting white UK born people it would be racist. However we can have organisations like EBSP (Ethnis Business Support Programme) who are able to discriminate against those they choose.

It shouldn't be about scoring points, by setting up organisations to assist one group of ethnic, religious or skin colour minority it should not be allowed. We should instead concentrate on fair treatment for all.

RizzyKing 16-06-2007 13:13
Re: still racist
 
Yet again the whole racism debate is about whites discriminating against ethnic minorities it does happen the other way round as well though that is rarely said. I have been on the end of more racism from ethnic minorities then i have seen going from whites to them. Ok maybe that is not the norm or maybe it is but if you are white your not taken seriously when you say you have been the victim in racism. Also i am willing to bet if figures came out about whites being stopped six times more then other races no one would say a damn thing. It is things like this that fuel racism not solve it and until all sides stop using race as a convinient subject it will always be a tinder box waiting to go up.

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 13:20
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34329548)
What about the white man who doesnt get a job he is best suited to cuz the employer has figures to meet to make sure they dont get seen as prejudiced?
That might possibly warrant an allegation of racial discrimination on the part of the company but, as I said earlier, there are too many factors in the process of employment recruitment which could be cited as determining factors.

Terms like "best suited" and "best qualified" are largely irrelevant in employment scenarios where interviews and interview performance are a predominant determinant in the appointment of a successful candidate.

For example, it is highly unlikely that Stephen Hawking would get a front line CS support call centre job at theoreticalphysicistsRus over an equally qualified black person who is not physically afflicted in the same way. The fact is - like it or not - that visual predeterminants and preconceptions of ability / disability go quite some way to making the end decision.

On that basis one would have to ask oneself if he was discriminated against due to his disability, his race or a preconception held by one or more of the interviewers which led to a reflection of "poor performance at interview" or "not fitting the company profile" if indeed he was "discriminated" against at all.

There are just too many factors.

Personally speaking I'm not aware of any company having been prosecuted for positive discrimination but I do know that current law and EU directives 2000/43 & 2000/78 will bring considerable changes to this field before the year end.

EDIT

Escapee, I just saw your post. With all due respect there is a difference between you "knowing" and someone "proving".

Additionally, your assertion that "no-one else in that line of business ever bothered to ask that company about a job if they were not of Pakistani origin." is evidence of self exclusion / discrimination - not proof of discrimination on the part of the company.

zing_deleted 16-06-2007 13:23
Re: still racist
 
As long as it brings equality to the whole thing ie escapees example. If it only ends up helping those of ethnic origin "risked that one" then its discrimiating to whites and therefore against its own law

Escapee 16-06-2007 14:19
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329566)
EDIT
Escapee, I just saw your post. With all due respect there is a difference between you "knowing" and someone "proving".

Additionally, your assertion that "no-one else in that line of business ever bothered to ask that company about a job if they were not of Pakistani origin." is evidence of self exclusion / discrimination - not proof of discrimination on the part of the company.
I would guess that any case of discrimination follows the route of (A) someone reporting it (B) suitable organisation investigating it (C) A case put together to go to court.

Unfortunately there are organisations who channel lots of effort into discrimination against certain groups, but these same organisations would not see fit to do the reverse.

Me 'Knowing' and someone 'Proving' would need to involve an organisation that deal with racial discrimination, is there such an organisation that would be interested in white men of UK origin being descriminated against, I think not it would just be brushed under the carpet as positive discrimination.

I am sure similar to my example happens in all parts of the country by companies run by people from a different race, proving however is near impossible as you say.

Personally I dont see a huge issue with them openly admitting they only employ Pakistani people, as long as I am allowed to openly choose what race I employ.

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 14:51
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34329587)
I would guess that any case of discrimination follows the route of (A) someone reporting it (B) suitable organisation investigating it (C) A case put together to go to court.
Yes, that's the theory - except (C) which would usually be expected to have been a tribunal case before reaching court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34329587)
Unfortunately there are organisations who channel lots of effort into discrimination against certain groups, but these same organisations would not see fit to do the reverse.

Me 'Knowing' and someone 'Proving' would need to involve an organisation that deal with racial discrimination, is there such an organisation that would be interested in white men of UK origin being descriminated against, I think not it would just be brushed under the carpet as positive discrimination.
Yes, it's called Employment law, Industrial / Employment tribunals and, ultimately, the courts. None of which are single race focused yet all of which, strangely, seem to be suffering a lack of activity (at any level) proving what you allege to be commonplace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34329587)
I am sure similar to my example happens in all parts of the country by companies run by people from a different race, proving however is near impossible as you say.
The statistics and national tribunal / court records would suggest otherwise. Proving it needs a prima facie case to test and as I stated earlier I'm not personally aware of any having been prosecuted in respect of positive discrimination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 34329587)
Personally I dont see a huge issue with them openly admitting they only employ Pakistani people, as long as I am allowed to openly choose what race I employ.
Yes, but they haven't admitted it. Your earlier statement only proved self exclusion / discrimination on the part of third parties so I'm afraid your statement is based on a flawed hypothesis. That aside, your closing statement says a lot in that it suggests that you believe the way to redress discrimination is to discriminate - in effect your argument bolsters the very premise of positive discrimination - you might want to think about that.

Russ 16-06-2007 14:59
Re: still racist
 
Is it just Port Talbot or do Indian/Cantonise/Chinese restaurants in other areas have very few or no whites employed there?

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 15:30
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329602)
Is it just Port Talbot or do Indian/Cantonise/Chinese restaurants in other areas have very few or no whites employed there?
It's pretty much the same all over, though it can be explained by various factors.

They are "specialist" restaurants dealing, primarily, with a particulr type of cuisine.

Additionally the restaurant / food service sector is among the lowest paid nationally and, as such, isn't "top of the pops" for your average ayran white supremacist job hunter these days.

Interestingly the "carry out" versions of these establishments tend to be an employment sector where most of those employed as delivery drivers who are not of the same race as the service provider are doing so as a secondary or undeclared income.

If you go to the ONS site you won't find Indian, Chinese, or Cantonese "delivery driver" as a recognised employment sector.

Russ 16-06-2007 15:42
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329616)
They are "specialist" restaurants dealing, primarily, with a particulr type of cuisine.
And that's related to skin colour?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329616)
Additionally the restaurant / food service sector is among the lowest paid nationally and, as such, isn't "top of the pops" for your average ayran white supremacist job hunter these days.
You're not serious....surely/shirley? So one of the reason there are few white workers there is because of the low pay? So why are our factories/call centres/UK cuisine restaurant employees mainly white?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329616)
Interestingly the "carry out" versions of these establishments tend to be an employment sector where most of those employed as delivery drivers who are not of the same race as the service provider are doing so as a secondary or undeclared income.
'Carry out'? You mean Take-Away? All of them (well, the ones I use) around here tend to have an appearance which relates to the nationality of the establishment.

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 15:55
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329619)
And that's related to skin colour?
Well, erm, yes, if we're talking about authenticity. I'm not saying it's right, I'm stating a fact. By way of an example - how "Indian" would you consider a 6 foot tall blond haired, blue eyed caucasian waiter to be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329619)
You're not serious....surely/shirley? So one of the reason there are few white workers there is because of the low pay? So why are our factories/call centres/UK cuisine restaurant employees mainly white?
I don't know Russ....perhaps it's a conspiracy? According to the Labour force survey "52% of male Bangladeshi workers work in the restaurant industry (compared with only 1% of white males)."

Perhaps it's passed you by but the number of factory jobs and call centres being outsourced / staffed by foreign nationals in the UK and / or foreign nationals abroad is constantly on the increase. Businesses have been quick to spot the fact that they can get the job done cheaper (though not always as well or better) by foreign nationals - irrespective of their demographic location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329619)
'Carry out'? You mean Take-Away? All of them (well, the ones I use) around here tend to have an appearance which relates to the nationality of the establishment.
I think the reason / rationale / logic behind that has been stated in various guises above.

Just out of interest, does your local Welsh Rarebit Take-away delivery driver look like Tom Jones or Harry Seacombe?

Russ 16-06-2007 16:19
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329626)
Well, erm, yes, if we're talking about authenticity. I'm not saying it's right,
Neither am I! You seem to be saying a white person is unable to make a meal taste authentic which as I think most people agree is proposterous!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329626)
I don't know Russ....perhaps it's a conspiracy?
Perhaps your assertion that one of the reason there are so many Indian people in Indian restaurants is due to the low pay is just a little cock-eyed? I put it to you that your suggestion is complete tosh, otherwise the majority of barmen, callcentre workers, factory workers, shop assistants, care workers etc would be Indian/Bangladishi/Pakistani too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329626)
I think the reason / rationale / logic behind that has been stated in various guises above.
Reason/rationale/logic or your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry (Post 34329626)
Just out of interest, does your local Welsh Rarebit Take-away delivery driver look like Tom Jones or Harry Seacombe?
Sadly there aren't any Rarebit take-aways - irrelevant though, seeing as I'm not suggesting the Indian take aways here have staff who look like Imran Khan or Shilpa Shetty :shrug:

Escapee 16-06-2007 16:21
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329602)
Is it just Port Talbot or do Indian/Cantonise/Chinese restaurants in other areas have very few or no whites employed there?
Its the same around here, for a number of years I did the circuit of chinese takeaways in the Cwmbran area, mainly because after a few years they changed hands and the standards went down so I would try another. I kept stumbling across a white woman and her daughter working behind the counter, and knew it was a good one when I found them.

I found out that the mother was married to a chinese guy who was a cook, he was a good cook because I knew as soon as I saw them behind the counter the food would be OK.

These two white women were OK for working in the takeaway though because the husband was the chef, I have only ever seen one other white person around here serving in a chinese takeaway. It's the same with the Indian takaways, very rare to see a white person working there.

The exception these days though seems to be other type of shops run by Asians, my local SPA has a white guy stacking shelves. I dont know what its like these days, but all the Indian/Pakistani shops in the Pill area of Newport were very lacking in white workers. I used to find there was a bit of an atmosphere in the shops in that area, I was never sure if they were trading just to cater for the Asian community but I never felt welcome when I entered. (I'm talking about 10-15 years ago though)

Saaf_laandon_mo 16-06-2007 16:42
Re: still racist
 
In Tooting (SOuth London), most if not all of the Indian/Pakistani restaurants have asian waiters. There are som ethat have white workers who happen to be Eastern European. I have a friend who owns a restuarant in Tooting and he tells me that when he has a vacancy for a waiter, his first choice of staff would be a family member or a friend of family etc etc. The reason for this is that he is looking to sort out either his own family member (extended family) with a job or someone else he might know. The chef is almost always exclusively a pakistani/indian often a family memberr because like it or not if you want to go and eat an authentic indian you'd rather eat one cooked by an Indian(well I know I would). I go to eat outr in Portuguese restaurants frquently, and the chefs are all Portuguese. Thats my preference as Im sure it would be with the magority of diners looking for an authentically cooked meal.


As for people coming in looking for work, he tells me that he hardly ever gets an enquiry from an English white person to work in the restaurant, and if anyone does come to ask, they dont want to work for the relatively low wages and long hours that he is paying.

He has told me on more than one occassion that he would love to employ english girls as waitresses in his restaurant, as they would be more flirtatious with the staff then his asian male waiters.

There is also a muslim run cafe/italian restaurant in Tooting which has white female staff. They are all eastern European, and he pays a minimum wage and the tips are good.

In central London most of the restaurant waitresses are white Eastern European girls.

The pattern to me is that white English people do not want to work in the restaurant/takeaway industry because it does not meet there payment expectations. I have previously posted on this forum about my difficulty in getting an English person to work in a sales role because the hourly rate was minimum wage + commission. 90% of the people responding to my advert were asian/foreign (non English).

So in my opinion only Asians in the restaurant industry is not solely based on the jobs only being made available to asians, but a lot is also to do with UK white people not applying or wanting to work in such industries.

Mr Angry 16-06-2007 16:48
Re: still racist
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329639)
Neither am I! You seem to be saying a white person is unable to make a meal taste authentic which as I think most people agree is proposterous!
I'm sorry, but nowhere have I said anything of the sort and further, to the best of my knowledge ,waiters (as in the example I actually cited) don't make meals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329639)
Perhaps your assertion that one of the reason there are so many Indian people in Indian restaurants is due to the low pay is just a little cock-eyed? I put it to you that your suggestion is complete tosh
Again I'm sorry, but you seem to be confusing ONS statistics with what you have mistakenly assumed to be an assertion on my part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329639)
,otherwise the majority of barmen, callcentre workers, factory workers shop assistants would be Indian/Bangladishi/Pakistani too.
Rather than have you misinterpret anything further, or afford you the opportunity of suggesting / implying that I have suggested something which I patently have not, you're welcome to read the Labour force survey from Spring 2004 to Winter 2004/05 wherein you can see the percentiles (vs per capita population by ethnicity) suggest that what you are suggesting is actually the case in many parts of the UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329639)
Reason/rationale/logic or your opinion?
If it were my opinion I'd have said so. I don't see why you're intent on arguing the merits of a statement you made when no one has contested any element of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34329639)
Sadly there aren't any Rarebit take-aways - irrelevant though, seeing as I'm not suggesting the Indian take aways here have staff who look like Imran Khan or Shilpa Shetty :shrug:
I know there aren't and I know you weren't, but anyone with a modicum of sense reading this is well aware of the stereotype you were trying to portray and the message it conveys.


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