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-   -   Creationism vs Evolution, Equal? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33612335)

Damien 14-04-2007 19:49
Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...nt/6549595.stm
Quote:
For some a battle between science and religion is being fought for the soul of America. The Creationists argue God created the world in six days and want their beliefs given equal status to evolutionary science.
What do you all make of this? Should creationism be given the same status as Evolution? Obviously this goes into if schools should give equal time to creationism?

I have no problems with people believing creationism or it being taught in church but I think its arrogant to assume they should be taught along side evolution or given the same amount of status. Evolution has a lot of evidence and science behind it. Its not simply 'Darwins point of view' anymore, and even when it was it was a point of view backed up by science.

Also what on earth is this about:

Quote:
"So do bears", says Ken. "But they eat nuts and berries! Remember, before the sin of Adam, the world was perfect. All creatures were vegetarian." One of the dinosaurs lets out a rather contradictory roar.
Dinosaurs were meet eaters and Its pretty clear dinosaurs came before Humans :confused:

So, should Creationism be given equal status? Does it belong in the teaching of science and evolution? Is the bible really proof of anything, its a belief but why should it be given the same status as science?

Angua 14-04-2007 19:59
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
There again they have recently discovered that the nearest modern relatives of the T-Rex are chickens and ostriches :D

downquark1 14-04-2007 20:07
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
This begs the question why did god design a vegetarian T-rex that's perfectly adapted for hunting and killing? Did he forsee original sin?

Russ 14-04-2007 20:09
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
How many times have we had this discussion now?

Delta Whiskey 14-04-2007 20:18
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
They can have equal status when both sides show equal physical evidence of their respective positions.

DW

Damien 14-04-2007 20:25
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275400)
How many times have we had this discussion now?
We've had Religion, Not so much about if they should be given equal status. Although we may have had the school one. Still better than the daily posting of why immigrants are cheating us topics.

Mr Angry 14-04-2007 20:31
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34275398)
This begs the question why did god design a vegetarian T-rex that's perfectly adapted for hunting and killing? Did he forsee original sin?
It also begs the question that if he wanted us all to be vegetarians then why did he make all the animals out of meat?

Ramrod 14-04-2007 21:48
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275400)
How many times have we had this discussion now?
:D

Xaccers 14-04-2007 21:50
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275400)
How many times have we had this discussion now?
28.34 times I think.

Ramrod 14-04-2007 22:02
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
I am a Pastafarian and a believer in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I demand that my beliefs are given equal status alongside other unproven theories in schools! :D

Also, I am a believer in a small china teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars link
Quote:
If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.........The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.
.......and this is why, in our household, God is on an equal footing to Amon-Ra, Thoth, Thor, the bogeyman, Santa Clause and the tooth fairy.......Encyclopedia Mythica for further reading :D

homealone 14-04-2007 22:16
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34275474)
28.34 times I think.
I thought pi was 3.142 etc :D

These discussions can never achieve more than people describing their own 'take' on how we interpret 'suddenly' finding ourselves living here.

- i.e I wasn't born with any previous memory that I can detect, I was just here, so whether the universe we can see was created over billions of years, or the last 10 thousand, is purely down to how we interpret the data - and there are new data coming in all the time...

However, in order to form an opinion, it must be possible to access the interpretation of that data on both sides of the debate - so in that respect I believe both scenarios should be discussed in teaching the concept of 'where we come from' ?

However, imo, one should not be promoted over the other, let people make up their own minds, but not in a way that assumes any other opinion thus becomes 'wrong'. :angel:

Creative 14-04-2007 22:18
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Jedi Knight. This isn't the thread you are looking for..........

Ramrod 14-04-2007 22:19
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275490)
so whether the universe we can see was created over billions of years, or the last 10 thousand, is purely down to how we interpret the data - and there are new data coming in all the time...
Surely that depends on whether you are a true christian or muslim believer or not?

BBKing 14-04-2007 22:26
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Should creationism be given the same status as Evolution?
Nope. Should dog droppings be given the same status as gold bullion?*

Quote:
These discussions can never achieve more than people describing their own 'take' on how we interpret 'suddenly' finding ourselves living here.
They also provide a useful clue as to whether people are capable of a degree of rational thought, of course. In the case of the UK, I'm not too worried, we always come high up the list of developed countries when it comes to accepting science over myth, as befits our status as a powerhouse of scientific excellence (I give you Charles Darwin as Exhibit A).

No prizes for guessing who came bottom, yes, Turkey (what, you expected the USA? They're second bottom. Rah, rah).

P.S. FSM rocks - *high five Ramrod* :tu:

* More sensibly, since creationism is an excellent religious belief but a lousy scientific theory (because it isn't one) and evolutionary biology is an excellent scientific theory but a lousy religious belief (because it's boringly material and tiresomely fact-based), the point of establishing any notional 'equality' between them is, at best, moot.

Damien 14-04-2007 22:26
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275490)
I thought pi was 3.142 etc :D

These discussions can never achieve more than people describing their own 'take' on how we interpret 'suddenly' finding ourselves living here.

- i.e I wasn't born with any previous memory that I can detect, I was just here, so whether the universe we can see was created over billions of years, or the last 10 thousand, is purely down to how we interpret the data - and there are new data coming in all the time...

However, in order to form an opinion, it must be possible to access the interpretation of that data on both sides of the debate - so in that respect I believe both scenarios should be discussed in teaching the concept of 'where we come from' ?

However, imo, one should not be promoted over the other, let people make up their own minds, but not in a way that assumes any other opinion thus becomes 'wrong'. :angel:
One is science though, thats why its taught in schools. Why should schools appease a religion by teaching their version of events? I dont see why people are sensitive to this, religion is a belief and not a fact you cant teach people that. They can ever accept the bible/god or not. You cannot teach it as if it has a equal status to science.

Ramrod 14-04-2007 22:38
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34275498)
Why should schools appease a religion by teaching their version of events? I dont see why people are sensitive to this, religion is a belief and not a fact you cant teach people that. They can ever accept the bible/god or not. You cannot teach it as if it has a equal status to science.
You try telling some people that! :D

---------- Post added at 21:38 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing (Post 34275497)
P.S. FSM rocks - *high five Ramrod* :tu:
I thank you! :tu: :D

homealone 14-04-2007 22:45
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34275494)
Surely that depends on whether you are a true christian or muslim believer or not?
if anyone doesn't accept that new data could change attitudes, that is their 'problem' ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34275498)
One is science though, thats why its taught in schools. Why should schools appease a religion by teaching their version of events? I dont see why people are sensitive to this, religion is a belief and not a fact you cant teach people that. They can ever accept the bible/god or not. You cannot teach it as if it has a equal status to science.
It depends what you mean by 'teach', imo, we were lucky to have a 'Religious Education' teacher who presented all beliefs equally & invited discussion on the differences & similarities between them, without 'promoting' any one over the other.

- 'science' , especially physics, is at an extremely interesting point, just now, where we cannot explain some of the things we observe and people talk about dark matter, and dark energy being the answer, but cannot really 'prove' it. - well, no more than anyone can 'prove' the creation theory ;)

Tezcatlipoca 14-04-2007 22:48
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34275486)
I am a Pastafarian and a believer in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I demand that my beliefs are given equal status alongside other unproven theories in schools! :D

Exactly. As we all know, global warming is caused by the decrease in the number of pirates over the last couple of hundred years.

---------- Post added at 21:48 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275505)
It depends what you mean by 'teach', imo, we were lucky to have a 'Religious Education' teacher who presented all beliefs equally & invited discussion on the differences & similarities between them, without 'promoting' any one over the other.

IMO, evolution should be taught in science lessons, & creationism/ID should only ever be taught in RE lessons. Creationism/ID are not science, & are based on belief & faith, rather than evidence & a proper scientific theory.

danielf 14-04-2007 23:09
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275490)
However, in order to form an opinion, it must be possible to access the interpretation of that data on both sides of the debate - so in that respect I believe both scenarios should be discussed in teaching the concept of 'where we come from' ?

However, imo, one should not be promoted over the other, let people make up their own minds, but not in a way that assumes any other opinion thus becomes 'wrong'. :angel:
So why not include Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Intelligent falling?

I would think it makes sense to make the amount of time spent on any 'theory' proportional to the amount of evidence there is for that theory, not how much noise its proponents make. Ergo, exit creationism. (From Science classes anyway).

homealone 14-04-2007 23:30
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 34275506)

IMO, evolution should be taught in science lessons, & creationism/ID should only ever be taught in RE lessons. Creationism/ID are not science, & are based on belief & faith, rather than evidence & a proper scientific theory.
not to disagree, but they should both acknowledge their seperate existence??

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34275523)
So why not include Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Intelligent falling?

I would think it makes sense to make the amount of time spent on any 'theory' proportional to the amount of evidence there is for that theory, not how much noise its proponents make. Ergo, exit creationism. (From Science classes anyway).
perhaps, but, if the 'amount of noise' theory applied to marketing, where would our advertising business be now? - as for spaghetti monsters, I'm pasta all that ;)

rogerdraig 14-04-2007 23:39
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
oh dear the world will end evolution will disappear as its so shaky a belief its threated by the mere mention of creationism

its also strange that evolutionists always believe they know everything about creationism where as creationists couldnt possibly have studied evolution

ah well of to more controversial stuff than this on my fav game forum

danielf 14-04-2007 23:56
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275538)
perhaps, but, if the 'amount of noise' theory applied to marketing, where would our advertising business be now? - as for spaghetti monsters, I'm pasta all that ;)
Yes, but were not talking about marketing. We're talking about science education, which should focus on empirical, testable facts and proper, falsifiable theories. Not on theories that are a prime example of how one should not do science.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogermevans (Post 34275544)
oh dear the world will end evolution will disappear as its so shaky a belief its threated by the mere mention of creationism
Well, personally I welcome well-founded criticism of any scientific theory. What I object to is pseudoscience (which is what creationism is). People can believe whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. Just don't claim it's science (when it's not) and should be given equal status to science, and be taught in science classes.

Stuart 15-04-2007 00:01
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34275486)
.......and this is why, in our household, God is on an equal footing to Amon-Ra, Thoth, Thor, the bogeyman, Santa Clause and the tooth fairy.......Encyclopedia Mythica for further reading :D
Weren't they all Xmen? :D

homealone 15-04-2007 00:08
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34275545)
Yes, but were not talking about marketing. We're talking about science education, which should focus on empirical, testable facts and proper, falsifiable theories. Not on theories that are a prime example of how one should not do science.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------



Well, personally I welcome well-founded criticism of any scientific theory. What I object to is pseudoscience (which is what creationism is). People can believe whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. Just don't claim it's science (when it's not) and should be given equal status to science, and be taught in science classes.
I agree that the empirical approach is the foundation of scientific method, but can only say i am waiting for the next big thing, the recent failure at the LHC was a huge disappointment :)

danielf 15-04-2007 00:22
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275566)
I agree that the empirical approach is the foundation of scientific method, but can only say i am waiting for the next big thing, the recent failure at the LHC was a huge disappointment :)
I'm not sure what this recent failure is, but I suspect it might be somewhat off-topic?

downquark1 15-04-2007 00:28
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275566)
I agree that the empirical approach is the foundation of scientific method, but can only say i am waiting for the next big thing, the recent failure at the LHC was a huge disappointment :)
Surely the failure at the LHC was an engineering error/oversight rather than a scientific 'truth' issue.

Unless I'm thinking of something different.

Macca371 15-04-2007 00:28
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Creationism doesn't belong in any intelligent discussion, never mind a classroom. What a load of ****e.

homealone 15-04-2007 00:41
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34275581)
Surely the failure at the LHC was an engineering error/oversight rather than a scientific 'truth' issue.

Unless I'm thinking of something different.
the failure was disappointing, not a 'truth' issue - and I don't see the Higgs as 'proof' anyway, yet.

Physics is just too spiritual, lately ;)

Damien 15-04-2007 00:49
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogermevans (Post 34275544)
oh dear the world will end evolution will disappear as its so shaky a belief its threated by the mere mention of creationism
Evolution is not threated by Creationism in terms of proof or science. Evolutionists do not think that, logically, creationism can disprove evolution. What we are fearful of is religion and its theory dominating science and pushing science aside in the minds of young children and filling it with a faith.

Children have faith in what they are told by adults, to abuse this position to convert or bring a child to believe in the same religion you do is not on IMO.

Quote:
its also strange that evolutionists always believe they know everything about creationism where as creationists couldnt possibly have studied evolution
Ok, No its not strange. Faith dominates Science. In the end science is made by man using natural resources and methods in order to find out more about the world around us. If you think there is a god, a higher power, that that automatically overrules anything man can say.

What creationists do not understand is that many of us do not have this faith. If you do not have this faith than EVERYTHING the bible says does not effect us. Anything to do with faith we do not have. So the bible, genesis is nothing but a story to us.

Do we believe the story or do we believe evolution that has science and proof behind it? Darwin looked at what he saw around him, In Humans, In Animals in the enviroment. Since then more and more evidence comes forward which proves it. You can see it yourself, its around you all the time. Viruses evolve, the enviroment changes.hat.

Also, Lets get past the idea that (only) some religions try to tell us. Evolution is not animals changing to meet the enviroment, its animals becoming weaker and dying because of the enviroment and only those who survive live on. Humans became more and more like we are today because we were best at living, we have the brain power and our hands to make and use tools which give us an advantage. This meant we were better at hunting, getting food and staying alive.

Removing the element of faith, what advantages does Creationism have over Evolution that deems it worthy of equal mention in teaching

homealone 15-04-2007 01:00
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34275592)
Evolution is not threated by Creationism in terms of proof or science. Evolutionists do not think that, logically, creationism can disprove evolution. What we are fearful of is religion and its theory dominating science and pushing science aside in the minds of young children and filling it with a faith.

Children have faith in what they are told by adults, to abuse this position to convert or bring a child to believe in the same religion you do is not on IMO.



Ok, No its not strange. Faith dominates Science. In the end science is made by man using natural resources and methods in order to find out more about the world around us. If you think there is a god, a higher power, that that automatically overrules anything man can say.

What creationists do not understand is that many of us do not have this faith. If you do not have this faith than EVERYTHING the bible says does not effect us. Anything to do with faith we do not have. So the bible, genesis is nothing but a story to us.

Do we believe the story or do we believe evolution that has science and proof behind it? Darwin looked at what he saw around him, In Humans, In Animals in the enviroment. Since then more and more evidence comes forward which proves it. You can see it yourself, its around you all the time. Viruses evolve, the enviroment changes.hat.

Also, Lets get past the idea that (only) some religions try to tell us. Evolution is not animals changing to meet the enviroment, its animals becoming weaker and dying because of the enviroment and only those who survive live on. Humans became more and more like we are today because we were best at living, we have the brain power and our hands to make and use tools which give us an advantage. This meant we were better at hunting, getting food and staying alive.

Removing the element of faith, what advantages does Creationism have over Evolution that deems it worthy of equal mention in teaching
one word - perspective, in my opinion a person should not ridicule what they don't believe in, just stating your own belief should be enough, why comment on others

- I was born in a star, for example ;)

Russ 15-04-2007 01:03
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34275592)
Evolution is not threated by Creationism in terms of proof or science. Evolutionists do not think that, logically, creationism can disprove evolution. What we are fearful of is religion and its theory dominating science and pushing science aside in the minds of young children and filling it with a faith.
I don't see the problem with faith and science working alongside each other. There is narrowmindedness on both sides and as this forum (and indeed this very thread) has proven, it occurs in at least equal amounts.

A good side which demonstrates in many ways how they can co-exist is www.godandscience.org

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34275592)
Children have faith in what they are told by adults, to abuse this position to convert or bring a child to believe in the same religion you do is not on IMO.
It is when you want what you believe is best for them. Kids will grow up knowing your views on politics too.

Xaccers 15-04-2007 01:04
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34275486)
Santa Clause
But Father Christmas is real though, I've seen him.

Russ 15-04-2007 01:04
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275598)
one word - perspective, in my opinion a person should not ridicule what they don't believe in, just stating your own belief should be enough, why comment on others
:clap:

That should be the daily mantra for many CF users.

Mal 15-04-2007 01:06
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone (Post 34275598)
- I was born in a star, for example ;)
Why didn't you melt? :)

Damien 15-04-2007 01:07
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
It is when you want what you believe is best for them. Kids will grow up knowing your views on politics too.
I dont think its right, but in the home thats peoples business. But NOT schools.

Xaccers 15-04-2007 01:09
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal (Post 34275605)
Why didn't you melt? :)
Asbestos nappies.

Damien 15-04-2007 01:12
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
I don't see the problem with faith and science working alongside each other. There is narrowmindedness on both sides and as this forum (and indeed this very thread) has proven, it occurs in at least equal amounts.

A good side which demonstrates in many ways how they can co-exist is www.godandscience.org
I dont care if people want to believe in a god or not. I object when people then try to blur science or force religion around in underhanded ways to match that religion. If they have faith in it then trust that people will come to it. But dont try to make it seem that creationism is anything to do with science.

Science and Religion can work fine with each other until they dont agree and when that happens they should be kept as far away as possible. Scientists dont try and campaign to get churchs to provide both theorys.

Russ 15-04-2007 01:12
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34275606)
I dont think its right, but in the home thats peoples business. But NOT schools.
I see where you're coming from with that but your original point about how you bring your child up, that seems to more refer to the home.

peanut 15-04-2007 01:14
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275600)
It is when you want what you believe is best for them. Kids will grow up knowing your views on politics too.
I see that as totally flawed as you said it yourself, "It is when you want" So you're saying kids don't have a choice then.

I for one find these threads and subjects very interesting, I might not agree or post my views as I really can't see the point in doing so, it's pointless (It's a 100% cert no win argument for either side).

But I think I can see that both sides do have there valid points regardless. And it's that I do find fascinating (in a good way that is). But they always end in frustrations all too easily.

Damien 15-04-2007 01:21
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275610)
I see where you're coming from with that but your original point about how you bring your child up, that seems to more refer to the home.
Well, My point is that children will believe that they are told from adults, especially teachers and parents. I cant question the parenting inside peoples homes, I would argue that using that trust to get the child to believe in the same thing you do when its clear that are other valid alternatives is questionable. They should be able to explore, In my school we had people who tutted when the teacher talked about evolution. They are taught what their parents want them to believe before they are smart and old enough to seprate fact from belief.

---------- Post added at 00:21 ---------- Previous post was at 00:19 ----------

Like I said, Many people find a faith when they are older. I have no problem with that, or with them believing what they want. Generally its a positive thing. Its just the portrayal to others, especially young people, that Creationism is equal to Evolution in terms of proof/likelyhood

Russ 15-04-2007 01:25
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanutkp (Post 34275613)
I see that as totally flawed as you said it yourself, "It is when you want" So you're saying kids don't have a choice then.
Up to a certain age no they don't. My daughter doesn't have a choice about whether or not she has to wear a seatbelt in her car seat. I will make that decision for her as I believe to be in a car without it is dangerous. I also believe that her growing up without Christianity is also dangerous so I will teach her about it as I believe it's in her best interests. When she's old enough to make up her own mind she's free to do as she pleases. Until then she plays by my rules (faith-related or not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Well, My point is that children will believe that they are told from adults, especially teachers and parents. I cant question the parenting inside peoples homes, I would argue that using that trust to get the child to believe in the same thing you do when its clear that are other valid alternatives is questionable. They should be able to explore, In my school we had people who tutted when the teacher talked about evolution. They are taught what their parents want them to believe before they are smart and old enough to seprate fact from belief.
It's up to the schools to provide alternatives. Whilst she lives with me she will have as good a Christian upbringing as I can cultivate. I make no apologies for this and neither should I be expected to. As a parent we do what we think is best for our kids, regardless of how 'trendy' it may or may not be.

Damien 15-04-2007 01:31
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
It's up to the schools to provide alternatives.
Its only a alternative if you have the faith. If not, its a story. Hence the problem. Schools are there to teach. They can do creationism in RE but not in science because Creationism is part of a religion and not a science. It doesnt have proof.

---------- Post added at 00:31 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

Quote:
Whilst she lives with me she will have as good a Christian upbringing as I can cultivate. I make no apologies for this and neither should I be expected to. As a parent we do what we think is best for our kids, regardless of how 'trendy' it may or may not be
I wasnt referring to you especially, just generally. And I dont expect you to apologies as its your life. Like I said, I cant question peoples indivdual parenting.

peanut 15-04-2007 01:33
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275622)
Up to a certain age no they don't. My daughter doesn't have a choice about whether or not she has to wear a seatbelt in her car seat. I will make that decision for her as I believe to be in a car without it is dangerous. I also believe that her growing up without Christianity is also dangerous so I will teach her about it as I believe it's in her best interests. When she's old enough to make up her own mind she's free to do as she pleases. Until then she plays by my rules (faith-related or not).
.

Now you're talking. I can easily say that's out of order, but it's not, because it's not my place to say so eitherway.

It does goes against everything 'I' believe, but that's me, I hope my kids have a choice, but you can also argue that as well.

It's like the kids on that Louis Theroux - Most hated family in America, they were only kids, I mean those 3-4 year olds, they followed their parents (sect or whatever), they don't have a choice, yet we judged them and said how wrong that was. What if they did have a choice?

TheDaddy 15-04-2007 01:35
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275600)
I don't see the problem with faith and science working alongside each other.
Interestingly enough, neither does the Pope

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1811&ito=1490

Russ 15-04-2007 01:40
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanutkp (Post 34275629)
Now you're talking. I can easily say that's out of order, but it's not, because it's not my place to say so eitherway.
And it's just your opinion too (which doesn't mean you're right!). I'm not going to avoid bringing my daughter up in a way just because it's not 'trendy' or 'politically correct'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanutkp (Post 34275629)
It's like the kids on that Louis Theroux - Most hated family in America, they were only kids, I mean those 3-4 year olds, they followed their parents (sect or whatever), they don't have a choice, yet we judged them and said how wrong that was. What if they did have a choice?
Bit of an extreme example there - however the day anyone can show I'm preaching hate to my daughter about any section of society is the day you're welcome to wheel me off to prison.

peanut 15-04-2007 01:53
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
I can't say I'm right either. I can not and will not argue nor criticize someone's beliefs, values and choices. I stated 'I' in my post to single myself out, and I said you could also argue 'my' choices, because that's how it is and should be. (again IMO).

But it's good to 'try' to understand the opposites but we know that's never easy is it.

Macca371 15-04-2007 01:56
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Why creationism, though? Simply because of the numerous adherents of the Christian faith in this country? Why not any other belief system? Evolution is such a respected theory because it is based on evidence, logic and reasoning. Creationism is considered simply because of the adherents of the Christian faith. This is a poor excuse to consider any belief system. If everyone turned pagan overnight should we include their belief system?

Delta Whiskey 15-04-2007 02:15
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Just a thought: Do Pagans use Wiccapedia?

DW

Tezcatlipoca 15-04-2007 02:18
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275622)
Up to a certain age no they don't. My daughter doesn't have a choice about whether or not she has to wear a seatbelt in her car seat. I will make that decision for her as I believe to be in a car without it is dangerous. I also believe that her growing up without Christianity is also dangerous so I will teach her about it as I believe it's in her best interests. When she's old enough to make up her own mind she's free to do as she pleases. Until then she plays by my rules (faith-related or not).

Although I'm a non-believer, & a scientist, I agree with you :tu:

She's your daughter, so that is rightly up to you.

---------- Post added at 01:18 ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Whiskey (Post 34275641)
Just a thought: Do Pagans use Wiccapedia?

DW

LOL!

Bill C 15-04-2007 03:25
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34275486)
I am a Pastafarian and a believer in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I demand that my beliefs are given equal status alongside other unproven theories in schools! :D

Also, I am a believer in a small china teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars link
.......and this is why, in our household, God is on an equal footing to Amon-Ra, Thoth, Thor, the bogeyman, Santa Clause and the tooth fairy.......Encyclopedia Mythica for further reading :D

Classic.

Excellent post :)

downquark1 15-04-2007 09:33
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca371 (Post 34275638)
Why creationism, though? Simply because of the numerous adherents of the Christian faith in this country? Why not any other belief system? Evolution is such a respected theory because it is based on evidence, logic and reasoning. Creationism is considered simply because of the adherents of the Christian faith. This is a poor excuse to consider any belief system. If everyone turned pagan overnight should we include their belief system?
Exactly, I respect that people can not accept evolution but why is the alternative always creationism? Surely if people were thinking about the issue individually they could come up with many alternatives.

For instance, all intelligent design suggests if that life was created by an intelligent designer. Why do people assume this to be the christian god? Why not aliens? Budda? Greek titans?

This is all a result of the American right mentality that there have to be only two possibilities and you have to be in either one or the other.

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 11:31
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
I think its finally time to start teaching that the Holocaust never happend in history class.

After all its an alternative point of view believed by many.

Russ 15-04-2007 12:10
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
To be honest I suspect this thread is less a case of what shouldn't be taught in a class and more a matter of "I don't agree with it so it shouldn't be there".

AntiSilence 15-04-2007 14:13
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34275725)
I think its finally time to start teaching that the Holocaust never happend in history class.

After all its an alternative point of view believed by many.
Rubbish. There is solid proof that it did happen.

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 14:36
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiSilence (Post 34275854)
Rubbish. There is solid proof that it did happen.
Show me this proof.

AntiSilence 15-04-2007 14:41
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34275869)
Show me this proof.
Sorry, I seem to have misplaced my holocaust survivors at the moment. You'll just have to check it out for yourself.

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 14:54
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Its all Allied propaganda i heard.

AntiSilence 15-04-2007 15:31
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34275885)
Its all Allied propaganda i heard.
Indeed.

Hugh 15-04-2007 18:22
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34275885)
Its all Allied propaganda i heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiSilence (Post 34275908)
Indeed.
I really, really, hope you guys are being ironic.............:confused:

Ramrod 15-04-2007 19:10
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Well they made me chuckle! :D

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 19:12
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Its a valid point is it not - irrespective of opinion.

Ramrod 15-04-2007 19:25
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34276024)
Its a valid point is it not - irrespective of opinion.
Indeed it is. Mere belief probably isn't enough when it comes to deciding what to teach our children.
Hence my assertion a while back that in some cases indoctrinating children in religious beliefs/lifestyles/etc could be seen as child abuse.....that prog about those religious nuts in USA being a possible example......

Damien 15-04-2007 19:28
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34276024)
Its a valid point is it not - irrespective of opinion.
As long as we remember Creationism is not the same as Holocaust Denial :erm:

Ramrod 15-04-2007 19:35
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34276037)
As long as we remember Creationism is not the same as Holocaust Denial :erm:
But possibly equally ludicrous....

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 19:49
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34276037)
As long as we remember Creationism is not the same as Holocaust Denial :erm:
How are you in a position to comment though Damien? Is it because you have been taught, in School, about the War and what happened.

Don't you think you should also have been taught the conflicting argument out there that some people don't believe in the Holocaust and their reasons for it?

After all, if you haven't heard the opposing argument, how are you supposed to make up your mind?

Therefore, it surely makes sense to teach the opposing view that the Holocaust never happened doesn't it?

Ramrod 15-04-2007 19:53
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34276049)
Don't you think you should also have been taught the conflicting argument out there that some people don't believe in the Holocaust and their reasons for it?

After all, if you haven't heard the opposing argument, how are you supposed to make up your mind?

Therefore, it surely makes sense to teach the opposing view that the Holocaust never happened doesn't it?
Nicely done :D

Damien 15-04-2007 19:57
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34276049)
How are you in a position to comment though Damien? Is it because you have been taught, in School, about the War and what happened.

Don't you think you should also have been taught the conflicting argument out there that some people don't believe in the Holocaust and their reasons for it?

After all, if you haven't heard the opposing argument, how are you supposed to make up your mind?

Therefore, it surely makes sense to teach the opposing view that the Holocaust never happened doesn't it?
The difference is the meaning behind the belief. Creationism is just a belief in a god who created life and so ons. Its a positive belief although I dont agree with it.

Holocaust Denial is about a so called 'Jewish conspiracy' and it mostly anti-semitic.

I agree that we should not teach alternatives theorys without evidence though.

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 20:01
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34276057)
The difference is the meaning behind the belief. Creationism is just a belief in a god who created life and so ons. Its a positive belief although I dont agree with it.

Holocaust Denial is about a so called 'Jewish conspiracy' and it mostly anti-semitic.

I agree that we should not teach alternatives theorys without evidence though.
Ah - now that would be trap number 2 my friend.

You see in America, public schools are religion free zones and are kept that way (within the constitution) otherwise you would have conflicts with the multicultural children who go to them.

Therefore Creationists themselves will tell you that in no way is creationism religion, it is in fact science and that is why it should be taught in a science class.

Do you see the conflict here... Do you see the deception...

Paul 15-04-2007 20:01
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Enough about the holocaust, stick to the topic please.

TheBlueRaja 15-04-2007 20:03
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Have you read the last 2 pages? This is about the topic.

Ramrod 15-04-2007 20:05
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34276057)
I agree that we should not teach alternatives theorys without evidence though.
How much evidence is enough and who gets to decide if it's enough evidence? :scratch:
Nope, I think we draw the line between religious belief and scientific theory. One gets taught in RE, the other in science class.....

AntiSilence 15-04-2007 20:19
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34275988)
I really, really, hope you guys are being ironic.............:confused:
I didn't say "Indeed" because I think that it was allied propaganda. I know it happened. I said it as I didn't want to continue the argument with TBR. Although I see where he was going with his posts.

Ramrod 15-04-2007 20:24
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34276057)
The difference is the meaning behind the belief. Creationism is just a belief in a god who created life and so ons. Its a positive belief although I dont agree with it.
I'm not so sure if it's a positive belief, but thats probably for another thread.....:disturbd:

Bill C 15-04-2007 20:24
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueRaja (Post 34276049)
How are you in a position to comment though Damien? Is it because you have been taught, in School, about the War and what happened.

Don't you think you should also have been taught the conflicting argument out there that some people don't believe in the Holocaust and their reasons for it?

After all, if you haven't heard the opposing argument, how are you supposed to make up your mind?

Therefore, it surely makes sense to teach the opposing view that the Holocaust never happened doesn't it?
The difference is that i for one have visited the Belsen camp and have seen the proof that it did happen. I have not seen the proof that some figment of someones book writing imagination created the earth and has some place for us to go when we become fertilizer. Good well written work of fiction that people seem to take as real :Yikes:

zing_deleted 15-04-2007 20:26
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
isnt reality a figment of everyone imagination anyway? aftersall what is real is subject to every individuals perception

Ramrod 15-04-2007 20:30
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill C (Post 34276089)
The difference is that i for one have visited the Bel-son camp and have seen the proof that it did happen.
Ah yes, but some people would have us believe that they have personally seen 'proof' that their beliefs are equally real.......how are we to distinguish between these versions of reality?

Bill C 15-04-2007 20:31
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34276095)
Ah yes, but some people would have us believe that they have personally seen 'proof' that their beliefs are equally real.......how are we to distinguish between these versions of reality?
Indeed.

Xaccers 15-04-2007 22:15
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Oh just go and read the Science of the Discword 3, it covers it pretty well and is quite amusing.

Hugh 15-04-2007 22:52
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34276090)
isnt reality a figment of everyone imagination anyway? aftersall what is real is subject to every individuals perception
Solipsism is a self-fulfilling philosophy, which is impossible to disprove. ;)

danielf 15-04-2007 22:59
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34276252)
Solipsism is a self-fulfilling philosophy, which is impossible to disprove. ;)
It sounds like there may be a case for it to be taught as an alternative to Evolution then :erm:

Ramrod 15-04-2007 23:46
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34276259)
It sounds like there may be a case for it to be taught as an alternative to Evolution then :erm:
But not in science classes......:D

Maggy 15-04-2007 23:52
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
So they couldn't force Creationism through the schools so now they have turned to the museums?Well now any respecting school will be avoiding recommending their students visit any museum that tries this one on...:rolleyes: and refusing to take school trips to any such establishments.

So Damien I don't think it's anything to worry about as most students will be exposed to the traditional views of evolution through the school syllabus in the US.

What will be interesting is to see how long this thread lasts.. 150 postings or so I reckon.;)

BTW Creationism is part of the RS syllabus here in the UK though it's not a major part.It's just presented for discussion.;)

Gareth 16-04-2007 00:03
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34276090)
isnt reality a figment of everyone imagination anyway? aftersall what is real is subject to every individuals perception
You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

danielf 16-04-2007 00:18
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34276286)
But not in science classes......:D
I'm pleased the irony isn't lost on you :D

handyman 16-04-2007 00:41
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34275622)
Up to a certain age no they don't. My daughter doesn't have a choice about whether or not she has to wear a seatbelt in her car seat. I will make that decision for her as I believe to be in a car without it is dangerous. I also believe that her growing up without Christianity is also dangerous so I will teach her about it as I believe it's in her best interests. When she's old enough to make up her own mind she's free to do as she pleases. Until then she plays by my rules (faith-related or not).
For once this is not an attack on you Russ, but it's not really your choice at all is it. Its the law of the UK that she has a seat belt

---------- Post added at 23:41 ---------- Previous post was at 23:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 34275642)
Although I'm a non-believer, & a scientist, I agree with you :tu:

She's your daughter, so that is rightly up to you.
No its the law that she wears a seat belt so it's not up to him.

Just like its scientific fact for science lessons and religious talk for RE.

One is FACT one is speculation and IMHO based on zero.

Russ 16-04-2007 00:42
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 34276312)
For once this is not an attack on you Russ, but it's not really your choice at all is it. Its the law of the UK that she has a seat belt
"For once"? You mean all the other occasions have been attacks on me?? :D

No, it is my choice. Just because something is law does not necessarily people will abide by it. Whether it's law to wear a seatbelt, she has one on while she's in a car I'm driving.

Made more simplistic, she doesn't have a choice of whether or not to hold my hand when she crosses the road. I make that decision for her because I consider it dangerous for her to cross the road otherwise.

handyman 16-04-2007 00:46
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34276317)
"For once"? You mean all the other occasions have been attacks on me?? :D
I have been slacking of late but then it's hard to attack someone that dresses up and fakes a fight.

And no not attacks but then I belive you and me have exact opposites of opinions so I would really enjoy the oportunity to change your opinion to 'reality' thus freeing you from the expectation that this brief existance of life is going to be extened for you by some belief in a supposed divine ruler.

Russ 16-04-2007 00:49
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 34276326)
I have been slacking of late but then it's hard to attack someone that dresses up and fakes a fight.
Wooooo, get her :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 34276326)
And no not attacks but then I belive you and me have exact opposites of opinions so I would really enjoy the oportunity to change your opinion to 'reality' thus freeing you from the expectation that this brief existance of life is going to be extened for you by some belief in a supposed divine ruler.
There's about the same chance of that as there is of you coming around to my way of thinking. I'm happy with my beliefs, I'm sure you're happy with yours, neither encroach on the others' existence in that respect so why upset the 'harmony'? :)

Unless of course you feel some kind of desire to impose your views on me? I certainly hope not.

handyman 16-04-2007 01:09
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34276330)
Unless of course you feel some kind of desire to impose your views on me? I certainly hope not.
No real need to impose my views since it is inevitable that religions will become very small cult type operations and their status in modern cultures will be vastly diminished. This will take some time but I would expect it to me no more than 2 more generations befoer it happens.

Russ 16-04-2007 01:11
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Right, ok. I'm sure we've had this discussion before but in the relevant thread so if you can leave the religion bashing to one side (and by your admission you won't be taking any said opportunities to try and change my mind) for now, that way this thread will stay on topic :)

Damien 16-04-2007 01:15
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Who cares what people believe, there are a lot worse beliefs than the normal religions. As long as it does no one any harm, whats the harm. Its only when religion trys to move outside itsself to bring more people in by using false logic and trying to claim their views are just as likely as a accepted science.

Incidently Russ, Do you believe in Creationism? If so what do you make of evolution.

Russ 16-04-2007 01:24
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 34276366)
Incidently Russ, Do you believe in Creationism? If so what do you make of evolution.
I have a view that they can co-exist. Yes I believe we were created by God. And I don't have a problem with the notion that creatures have evolved (I don't agree that humans have done so, or ever will) to a point.

The environment changes and I believe God has adapted situations to fit. First question from you guys would be "if God is all-knowing why does He have to change things?" - my answer is the world has been in decay since the Eden incident (read Genesis to find out why) and the environment is constantly changing as a result and to give everyone a chance, He adapts things.

Another way I look at it is the example of the common household cat. Small, fast, silent, vicious (usually...), nature's perfect hunter. They don't have big cumbersome paws which slow them down, they don't have long heavy tails to throw them off-balance, they are perfectly adapted to hunt and kill. Agaian this is just an example but someone/something created them that way and is in control of them not evolving in to something which compromises their position as a natural hunter.

That someone/something (which obviously in my view is God) has a law in place which makes them stay in that physical form to fulfil their role in nature.

Obviously I don't base my whole view on the example of the cat - that's why it's an example - sorry for stating the obvious but I sense the sharks are circling....(incidentaly, sharks are also perfectly adapted for hunting in their environment...! :))

Tezcatlipoca 16-04-2007 01:33
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by handyman (Post 34276312)

No its the law that she wears a seat belt so it's not up to him.

Just like its scientific fact for science lessons and religious talk for RE.

One is FACT one is speculation and IMHO based on zero.


Eh? I know wearing seat belts is required by law.


And I wasn't talking about science lessons & RE - I agree with you that only science should be in science lessons, & religion should stay in RE. I fully accept evolution, & I do not believe in creationism.


I was talking about outside school... If Russ wishes to raise his daughter as a Christian, & so at home teaches her Christian things, then that is his right to do so as her father.

danielf 16-04-2007 13:21
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34276540)
Errrrm, not read post 1 then? :p: :D

Ramrod 16-04-2007 13:24
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf (Post 34276541)
Errrrm, not read post 1 then? :p: :D
Doh!......*goes off to delete his post* :rofl: :dunce:

NEONKNIGHT 16-04-2007 13:39
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.
Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)

:angel:

TheNorm 16-04-2007 14:06
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
October 15, 1844 - August 25, 1900

NEONKNIGHT 16-04-2007 14:45
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34276592)
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
October 15, 1844 - August 25, 1900
To believe in God is impossible not to believe in Him is absurd.
Voltaire

No quotes from the Water Margin please!!....

TheNorm 16-04-2007 15:20
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Carl Sagan

TheNorm 16-04-2007 15:33
Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities
Voltaire

;)


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